agreed terrible poll options. When are firms going to stop being lock-step? Why do people continue to put up with working harder at top firm for the same pay as fools working at lower tier firms?

Lockstep is already breaking down at the margins. We saw it in the most recent bonus season, where some firms tried to present themselves as paying lockstep, but actually tied bonuses to hours and/or performance.

Lat, did you figure out what happened to Carlos Spinelli?

It would be a different situation if we weren't paid in lock-step. But we are, so there's no point in pretending there are any secrets.

as a sidenote, the times article was probably referring to the original greedy associates: http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-top.tcl. The url mentioned in the article points to an imitation site.

These salary discussions made me feel inadequate. I work at a BIGLAW firm that pays 15k below market to first years. The bonuses are much less. Sure, I work nice hours (typically 9:30 to 6 with few weekends) but since I'm greedy I would gladly work longer hours to make market base salary plus a huge bonus (like 35k+ or whatever CA firms are paying these days). Right now even if I billed 2,400 hours I'd get a 20k bonus max.

Anyway, you turds at Vault 50 firms that pay market should be happy.

4:07 --> Shove it up your butt

I'm 4:07 (btw Lat, these comments suck, in case you haven't heard that at least 50,000 times so far)

I shouldn't shove anything. I really feel underpaid. I'm a third year but I make about the same as a first year at good BIGLAW firms. Sure I don't work as hard as many of those associates, but I'm sure many associates at firms paying market work the same as me. I am getting abused. I know how African orphans feel now.

4:07/4:40

Why don't you just go to a BIGLAW firm and quit yer bitchin'?

4:07 = flame

Lat, that memo went to the entire Firm a week ago. How have you managed to piss off S&C so thoroughly that not one measley associate will get it to you?

4:07 - you don't happen to work at greenberg glusker, do you? (I guess I'm assuming you are in LA with the CA comment)

Lat, did you figure out what happened to Carlos Spinelli?

first

Lat, did you figure out what happened to FRAT STUD?

The options for the poll are off. There should be a distinction between talking salary with others at your own firm or even in the legal profession generally (where lockstep salaries are known and understood by all) vs. discussing with non-lawyers. Within the profession, it's informative (and very needed) transparency. Outside of the profession, it's bragging and gauche.

Guys at my high school used to get promised "special senior associate" bonuses, only to find that the actual bonus amount was so small as to provide little incentive in terms of associate retention but provided S&C with a publicity boost months prior at the time of announcement of the bonus all the time, it was no big deal.

FRAT STUD

4:07 / 4:40 --> No, really, Shove it up your BUTT

Love,

4:21

*poof*

FART STUD

I'm 4:07/4:40.

To the poster who asked if I work at Greenburg Glusker. I don't, but I heard it's actually okay working there. Billables are much lower and they have high hiring standards so you actually can have self-esteem there.

To the poster who asked why I don't just go to a hiring paying BIGLAW firm: I tried. I drank too much at my t14 so my grades suck. I haven't been able to get any offers even though I've gotten a few interviews. Maybe I'm also just a crappy interviewer. I don't know. I'm also a minority. Originally I thought that would help, btu now I think it really puts me at a disadvantage during interviews. If I could move and make more money I'd do it, but I've basically blown all my options.

Lat should do a poll about t14 grades with poor grades and whether they've been able to lateral to more prestigous firms after spending a couple years at their first firm.

6:17,

Curious: did your T14 grades suck evenly, or were they high 1L and then drop as you slacked, secure in the knowledge that you'd already bagged a job?

6:17, I'm in a similar position with bad grades at a solid school (although not URM). I was able to lateral out of an abusive hell hole (well regarded, but terrible working conditions and a reputation for taking people like us because we'd get a big name on our resume based essentially entirely upon doing well on the LSAT). Keep getting interviews. Maybe switch recruiters if you're having no luck with your current one. Good luck.

So...let me see if I have this right, 4:07. You are a third year getting around $160k plus bonus to work about a 42-hour week. You don't have the grades to lateral up the law firm food chain. Do I have it right so far? And you have the nerve to complain about your situation?

Maybe 4:21 went a bit too far - you only need to shove your sense of entitlement up your butt. Do you realize that while you may not be at market rate for the most elite stratus of firms, you have a pretty sweet deal? You made choices in law school that affected your performance. You are now living with the consequences - and they are, in fact, minimal. You are making a ton of money for an incredibly easy work week. Make some lemonade and enjoy your comfy position in life. Or hustle a little better and nail an interview somewhere else. But peddle your woe-is-me wares elsewhere; no on here is buying.

Does everyone realize there are TWO Greedy Associates boards?

One at greedyassociates.com, the other at infirmation.com. The infirmation GA board is good, the one at greedyassociates.com stinks.

This is 6:17 speaking again:

My t14 grades unfortunately did not suck evenly. I actually did pretty well my first year and then my grades got progressively worse. I ended up with two C's, both during my last two years, and a GPA that was slightly below 3.0. This is a HUGE problem because when partners see my transcript these are huge red flags. If I just had gotten above a 3.0 and not gotten those two C's I may have been okay with lateralling. I basically gave up my first two years because I had a job and hated law school bad, but not I work hard. I'm more motivated by money.

I've used every recruiter imaginable. I've applied to every decent firms. A lot of them, like Jones Day, Winston Strawn, OMM, won't even give me an interview because my GPA is so bad. I have gotten about five interviews with AMLAW 100 firms and all of them rejected me. It's really depressing. Some are understandable, but a couple have been messed up because they ultimately hired people not nearly as qualified as me. For instance, one firm wanted a third year in my practice area. After interviewing and rejecting me they hired a girl who had recently graduated law school, but who was unemployed. She has NO experience in my practice area. I can't understant this decision at all. It happened a prior time too. I work in a specific area of litigation at a firm well-known in this area. I interviewed with a firm and get rejected in favor of a woman who practices GENERAL litigation and has a year less experience than me. I mean come on. And I get rejected in favor of non-t14 people all the time. I'd be better off with magna cum laude from Loyola-LA than middle of the class from a t14.

This is all frustrating. I don't want to believe that race is a factor but it's hard connecting in interviews with white partners, especially those white women who are scared of minorities. Maybe it's all meant to be and I'll stay at my current semi-TTT firm and make partner and end up making bank. God knows.

6:36: I understand that I have a really amazing BIGLAW job. I mean I really work a 40-hour week basically most of the time, I make good money, no one bothers me, I take vacation, and best of all, my firm is stable and won't be laying people off.

But I always imagined that I'd accomplish more in my career than working at a firm that is semi-prestigous but not Vault 50 or something like that. I always wanted more.

And it troubles me that despite having a resume with a t14 and almost three years experience at a firm well-respected in my practice area, that I can't get something better. I'm not trying to be elitist, but it's messed up that firm's are dissing me for people with really average resumes.

If you go into interviews with the mindset that you can't connect with white partners, or that your interviewers are "those white women who are scared of minorities," it's no wonder you are flubbing. God. I can't even express how much that pisses me off.

6:17:

You are so full of it. You didn't do that well in law school, so you are lucky to even have the job you have, let alone to be lateraling around LA! No one wants to hear your complaining.

What's more, I don't believe you are a minority. If I am right, your posts are particularly annoying.

If you "always wanted more," then what the hell were you doing in law school? Wanting more without wanting to put in the work to get it? Reread your posts, and try to see how unbelievably entitled you sound. It sounds as though you believe someone out there owes you a super fantabulous job just because you want it. Not how it works, my friend. I wonder if you aren't projecting this in your interviews - something along the lines of "ahhh, it will be so great to get up here to this higher echalon where I really belong," rather than "here are the many things I bring to your table."

And be clear - it takes a special amount of screwing around to get a C in t14 schools. Double that for two. Since you are still in the phase of your career where your grades accompany your resume, *you* too have a "really average" resume.

whatever - working hard in law school is stupid. grades would be a great way of telling people apart except that some of us are too cool worry about exams and whatnot. plus, it's all in the interview.

4:07 - just walk in like you belong there and you'll be fine.

6:53 - lol. what do you mean you don't believe he's a minority??? haha. who would lie about that on an anonymous web forum???? do you mean that you think he's completely full of shit, or that he's really white and just pretends to be from an ethnic minority? please explain

4:07 - bail on the firm world and go in-house. not to harp on the minority thing (I'm half cuban, if that counts??) but it's pretty easy to get in the door of a lot of legal departments and a lot of big corporations like having a more diverse workforce and there are always promotional opportunities there. plus, if you get promoted high enough you can snub your current law firm when hiring outside counsel

news flash: now is not a great time to lateral. nor was it a great time to lateral 6 months ago. nor will it be for about another 6 months

Anyone want to talk about the low salaries at Venable or SAB? I just can't get enough of them.

So, basically 4:07/6:17/6:36, you are getting paid what you are worth. If you had received better grades, you would be getting paid more. Your choice, live with it.

And no, it's not because you are a minority, either. If you have a chance to connect with a partner (i.e., get an interview), then it's your job to lose. Improve your interview skills before you whine about race, it gives the rest of us minorities (who had job offers from 7 different BIGLAW firms in the city) a bad rep.

1. I "always wanted more" but I didn't study in law school because I though it was stupid pointless crap, and you know what, it is. It has no application to real world law. And what's dumb is that if I had known better I could have just taken more seminars and gotten higher grades. Instead I took courses that I thought would challenge me and I paid the price. One C was in a class in some funky commercial transaction topic that is not even applicable to what I do. I just took it becuase I thought it would be interesting, big mistake.

2. I'm not saying I want a hand-out. I'm saying that I'm overqualified for many of these positions compared to the applicants that these firms end up hiring. I'm at a firm really respected in my practice area. I have over two years solid experience (no doc review). My firm is known for training junior associates well. It is is a bunch of BS that I don't get at least one offer.

3. True, it hurts me when I go into interviews assuming that whites are going to not want me. But you know what, it's totally true. They don't want a minority in small practice groups. It's different if there 75 attorneys in the group, but when there's only 5 then it's differnet because they might actually have to deal with you. And I get questions that are really degrading, like whether my current firm is asking me to leave, or why I got a poor grade in a certain class or whatever. I wonder if a steretypical white dude who LOOKS like a lawyer gets those questions. People probably just assume he's good because he looks like a lawyer. I don't, so I get screwed.

yeah - I have to agree 7:24. if you get an interview, it's your own fault for not closing the deal

No. Small practice groups don't want someone who calls him/herself "overqualified" for any position in an elite law firm after 2+ years. I'm in a small practice group myself, and I know we look for people who will pull their weight while keeping the ego crap at a minimum. Based on what you've shared here today, I'm banking that you aren't giving that image in your interviews.

And your stance on working hard on law school is complete crap. Whether or not the material in law school has any application to "real world law" is irrelevant; it is not, and has never been, a secret that you need good grades to get a good job. It's a hoop, but so is the rest of the build up to getting sworn in.

bro - I'm sorry you feel that way, but don't pin it on the minority thing. I don't know if we still count as minorities in California, but I'm latino and I had tons of offers from v50 firms in San Diego. here's my secret: in the interview, just try to act more white than the person interviewing you. it's easy - talk about golf, sailing, your small fuzzy dog/cat, your love of the outdoors. just out-white the man (or woman, as it may be)

Uhm, those questions aren't limited to minorities. No matter what your race, people will ask about bad grades. Likewise when the interviewee is trying to jump firms - they want to make sure they're not bringing a bad egg on board.

If anyone thinks I actually boast about how overqualified I am in interviews, they're stupid. I act modest. I'm modest by nature. I think the fact I get interviews so quick from some top firms shows my resume is really good. But when I get rejected it's either cause I'm a crappy interviewer (highly likely I admit) or partly because they don't feel comfortable around a colored.

Wow. Someone who managed the impossible of getting 2 Cs in law school, works at a non-V50 firm in a minor market in a niche practice, has a huge chip on his shoulder and a sense of entitlement, and is a racist, hostile to his interviewers, is having a hard time finding a job during an economic downturn. Astounding.

4:07/7:28: White males get "degrading" questions in interviews. I got asked in more than one interview why I wasn't on a journal.

Re: "Outside the profession it's just braggin." Hahaha. Either that or it's just embarrassing, eg, with anesthesiologists, bankers, entrepreneurs, etc.

No one thinks you actually boast about how overqualified you are in interviews. But you are thinking it, and that kind of thing comes through much more clearly than you'd think during an interview.

Colored people are funny.

You know who I don't feel comfortable around? Anyone who makes up his mind about how I feel about him before I even speak, just because I'm a white woman. This is so ludicrous. Think about it - you have decided that I won't/don't like you and couldn't possibly give you a fair shot at a job because I'm white and female, and am therefore "afraid of minorities." If I told you a list of assumptions I made about you the moment I knew you were black, you'd label me a giant racist. How is what you're assuming any different?

Ummm...isn't openly talking about salaries exactly what goes on at ATL all the time? The put down by Lat of infirmation.com is gratuitous and pathetic.

Face it, whites have a big advantages in BIGLAW.

For those saying they "want more" from a job, but are currently working in a "Just below biglaw" (or something like that). You are perfectly positioned to do "something more", but for REAL. You are making sufficient funds to support yourself currently, and due to your reduced workload (compared to BIGLAW), you can go out and network, join professional societies, become active in the community, etc., to position yourself for partner, or even better from a personal fulfillment standpoint, do something noteworthy outside of the law. Keep your "day job"< but also become a leader in the volunteer community, become politically active, start a side business, write a book, etc.

"Face it, whites have a big advantages in BIGLAW."

Yes, some of them comprehend basic number agreement.

Do grades still come up in interviews a couple years out of law school? I went to a good, but not t14, school and did pretty well my first two years (law review, biglaw summer, ect). But I coasted as a 3L, did substantially worse and managed not to graduate order of the coif. Would this sort of thing actually come up in a lateral interview? I would have thought they'd be more interested in the deals I've worked on.

6:17 Let me offer a sincere piece of advice: If you can (and I know this may be impossible) stop thinking of yourself as a minority, and of your interviewers as white people scared of minorities, you would probably do dramatically better in your interviews.

6:14, Let me offer you a truly sincere piece of advice. If you could go into your interviews (and I know this might be impossible) and not think of yourself as a minority, or of your interviewers as white people who don't like minorities, you might do dramatically better. Sometimes these things come off in unconscious ways and we don't even realize it. And, your comments on whether there is a double standard for you as a minority in an interview versus a stereotypical white applicant - it is a common minority perception that they are treated differently because of their race when someone says or does something, but I think, mostly, an unjustified perception. Sometimes someone is a jerk to me, and I assume it's because they've had a bad day or are just a jerk; a minority (perhaps understandably, given our history) can assume it's because of his or her race. But you should trust me when I say that that's almost never the case nowadays.

I agree with 7:59 and 8:13.

4:07, I can't even tell you how much you're pissing me off. All you can talk about is how great you are and how the whole world's against you, when you got horrible grades and you're lunacy is proven by the fact that you can't even see how silly your goals are. You want $15 grand more, so you can work another 6000 hours? After tax that's $10 grand, or about $1.66 /hour.

Not to mention that all you can talk about is how everyone else is racist, when you're spending your time insulting white women.

ATL is "a bit '5 [months] ago.'"

After reading your post, 7:28, I got news for you. It's not whites that don't want you, it's socially well-adjusted people who don't want you anywhere in their work environment.