Still More on Sonnenschein: Portnoy’s Complaints
Earlier today, in the wake of yesterday’s post about troubles in the Charlotte office of Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal, firm chairman Elliott Portnoy sent around an irate email:
From: Portnoy, Elliott I.
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:40 PM
To: #Attorneys-All
Subject: Rumors Regarding Charlotte and Summer ProgramMany of you have recently heard claims regarding our Charlotte office that have emanated from certain blogs frequented by law students. I write today to let you know the facts, not rumor or speculation. Firmwide, we will have more than 50 Summer Associates joining us over the coming few months, and we plan to have 24 first-years joining us this Fall across the firm.
First, this fine website, while certainly “frequented by law students,” is also read by many other folks - e.g., law professors; associates, partners, and recruiting personnel at top law firms; in-house and government lawyers; law clerks and judges; and legal reporters and PR professionals.
Second, Portnoy attempts to draw a distinction between “facts” and “rumor.” But the core of what we reported - namely, that the firm has rescinded offers of summer and full-time employment in its Charlotte office - is a fact, acknowledged by Portnoy later on in his message.
Read the rest of that email message, with our running commentary, after the jump.
Portnoy’s message continues:
Last month, we made the difficult decision to rescind offers to two summer associates and two incoming first years in the Charlotte office. This action was taken solely because of the significant slowdown in our capital markets work in Charlotte, and it was limited to that office. In particular, these four candidates had interests in both a specific practice group and a specific geography, where the firm’s needs simply no longer matched their professional desires. This was a highly unusual situation for the firm, and, consistent with Sonnenschein’s culture, we made offers of compensation and career assistance to these individuals in order to help ease their transitions to other opportunities. Similarly, we have made the difficult decision to be very limited in our public statements about this decision. While it would be easy to respond to blogs, we believe this is a very personal and private matter for the four candidates, and we stand behind our decision.
Portnoy appears to be a “dead tree media” snob. Although the firm spokesperson refused to respond to our repeated emails and phone calls, the firm was perfectly happy to comment on this “very personal and private matter” to the Charlotte Observer. See here (and note the article’s subtitle, which might be an ATL shout-out: “Not Above the Laws of Economics”).
Stay classy, Sonnenschein.
The decisions about these four individuals were not made lightly. Jay Suhr (Managing Partner in Charlotte), Jana Barbe (Chair of the Real Estate Practice Group), and I (among others) were personally involved in this decision, which I shared with our Office Managing Partners and Practice Group Heads last month. As we contemplated this particular course of action, one of our gravest shared concerns was that this action would be misperceived as a lack of commitment to our Charlotte office. On this point, Jana, Jay and I are in complete accord — our commitment to the Charlotte office, our colleagues there, and the Charlotte market generally, is unwavering. In fact, our Charlotte office continues to grow — with the most recent additions being our new Chief Marketing Officer and a soon-to-be-announced Insurance Regulatory consultant. I was in Charlotte several weeks ago and met with our Charlotte associates to communicate our commitment to them and to the Charlotte market, and — coincidentally — Policy & Planning will be meeting in Charlotte next week as part of our rotating schedule of meetings in all Sonnenschein offices.In addition, late last night and early this morning, a group of approximately 20 associates and partners at the firm received form-letter protest e-mails from two different individuals who frequent one of the blogs and who sometimes even purport to be incoming summer associates. I urge you to not respond to any e-mails that you receive from students or others outside the firm. Instead, all media inquiries should be directed to Linda Butler at xxxx.
Who will ignore them, as she did our emails and phone calls, both last week and this week.
I understand that rumors of this sort can sometimes take on a life of their own and generate unnecessary anxiety. As such, I encourage our Office Managing Partners and members of our Associates Committee to evaluate, on a local level, whether any additional actions need to be taken to address any lingering concerns that these recent rumors may have created.As always, I stand ready to answer any questions or concerns any of you may have.
Elliott
Okay, Elliott, we’ll bite. Why do you persist in referring to facts - facts that you and your firm have confirmed, in internal and external communications - as “rumors”? Is there any information in our prior coverage that you would like corrected? We are more than happy to fix anything that’s erroneous. Just let us know.
ATL readers: If you have more info about Sonnenschein that you’d like to share, whether related to Charlotte or any other office, please feel free to email us. We are eager to receive your tips. Thanks.
P.S. Kirsten Valle’s Charlotte Observer article helpfully surveys the lawyer layoff landscape down in CLT:
Nationwide, about 100 attorneys have lost their jobs or been offered buyouts during the current downturn, the [Legal Intelligencer] reported last month. In Charlotte, the affected firms include:• Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft, which laid off nine global finance and capital markets attorneys in January, part of a wave of layoffs across the New York-based firm.
• Dechert, which issued layoff notices in February to three finance and real estate associates and 10 others across the firm. Later, the Philadelphia-based firm offered those attorneys positions in divisions that handle other kinds of law, the Legal Intelligencer reported.
• Kennedy Covington, one of Charlotte’s oldest firms, which laid off about a dozen support staff after larger firms hired away many of its lawyers, the firm said in February.
• Winston-Salem’s Womble Carlyle Sandridge & Rice, which laid off four or five staff members recently, officials there said.
(Some readers had emailed us earlier requesting info about layoffs at Womble Carlyle. There’s your answer.)
Charlotte law firms feeling the downturn [Charlotte Observer]
Law Firms Lured by Charlotte’s Banking Culture Find It’s Cooled Down [National Law Journal]
Earlier: What’s Going On At Sonnenschein?
Update: What’s Going on at Sonnenschein - CLT? (And a discussion of the Charlotte market in general.)
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Second
Nice job, Lat!
Why would anyone want to work at a firm that a normal person couldn't even pronounce?
if the email targeted law school students, then isn't it appropriate to say "frequented by law students" in the email? Untwist those panties.
This Portnoy guy seems like a total douche.
So who's the ATL vigilante spamming Sonnenschein?
You forgot to mention bankers for law firms and lawyers. We read this blog too.
4:42 - are you idiot or just illiterate. The email was addressed to:
"To: #Attorneys-All"
Don't think that is targeting law school students....
Wow, these guys make cwt look like public relations geniuses.
"Certain blogs," What a putz, this guy is. He is making himself look like a giant douche holding a turd sandwich.
Signed by: Jim Lehrer
good job david
Guys at my high school got email-bombed by blogs all the time. It was no big deal.
good job david
Lat, while I think your little blog is lame, you definitely kicked this guy's butt. Congrats.
Well played, Lat.
Ew, I would not want to work for him.
4:47:
Spamming entails sending unsolicited e-mail. In this case, Sonnenschein was asking for it.
Captain FIRST!
Yay Lat! They can spin it all they want. Unless they offered the 4 individuals jobs at other branches that were flat out declined, they're scum.
Bring Chad to Philly!
Wow, what a shit firm.
50 summers for 24 associates? seems a high ratio. Does anyone know how many summers they had last year?
all this fuss was about two incoming assocs and two summers.... 4 PEOPLE?!? Seems like overkill to have an equal number of stories on ATL.
Nobody's ever heard of this firm before this blow-up...
I can see the guy who wrote this email seething at the thought that it got out on the blog so soon....
You would think that managing partners would be better prepared to deal with their firm becoming the subject of ATL threads. There have been enough incidents at this point, haven't they taken the time to prepare so they don't make mountains out of molehills? Can't they learn any lessons by comparing Nixon Peabody to Cadwalader, one got bad PR for its inept handling of a theme song, one got good PR for competent handling of layoffs. It sure doesn't seem like Portnoy is aware of how diverse the readership of ATL is or that it is now necessary to deal with legal blogs whenever there is news coming out of your firm.
I'll second (fifth?): Nice work with this, Lat.
5:33pm - they had 50. Why? Do you think the new crop might have a problem?
Lat has done a great service to the legal community by bringing things like this to light.
Lat - great job.
lat-a-tat-tat, never be afraid to put a managing partner on his back.
4:49: The email was sent to all attorneys and the subject (target) was law school students. Good thing you know the difference between the two. You smart. real super smart.
This new layout is horrible.
Sonnenschein brass may not even care that much about the effects of this..
Portnoy's consultant-driven expansion plan is centered on lateral acquisition and does not appear to take the traditional grooming of associates from 1st year to partner very seriously.
They may just figure when it comes to the effect on recruiting summers/1st years -- who cares? After all, even with the god-awful reputation they are accruing, there will ALWAYS be otherwise unemployed law students out there willing to take the employment risks for a Sonnenschein paycheck and associated resume entry even if they are effectively no more than highly-paid temp attorneys.
This guy's response makes the firm look very, very bad.
Especially with his (mis)use of "joining" ...
Admirable how he spins selfish concern for the firm's reputation as selfless concern for the associates' and summer associates' privacy. This guy looks like a fool, and he's bringing the whole firm down with him.
God damn this toilet. Portnoy, did you at least offer them spots in other offices? If I were them, I would go to any other office to avoid having my career ruined. The 3Ls will not find other large firmed jobs, you've just ruined their lives. What will happen to the 2Ls remains to be seen, but I suspect you've also ruined their lives. If I were them, I would walk down to the local courthouse and file a complaint today.
I thought the form email thing was hilarious. I loved how the guy on autoadmit just chose a random smattering off Sonnenschein attorneys to email.
Things wouldn't have gotten so out of hand if Portnoy hadn't handled this so badly.
You tell the story Portnoy to avoid having it told for you. Any good litigator knows that. No wonder your firm is in so much trouble. If your firm has any sense they will push you out.
I agree 502, Lat is a freaking HERO.
lol @ your lives.
I think Elliott is a victim of his own hubris.
According to his firm bio, one of his practice areas is "Information Capital & Political Intelligence." HAHAHAHAHA! That's too funny!
dude, lat...you run a blog. easy with the outrage over anyone impugning your 'reporting'
say it with me "i am not a real reporter." repeat 5x with deep breaths in between
I also want to add that it's hilarious that this email ended up on ATL in a matter of hours even though Lat huffs and puffs about keeping this sh*t undercover.
What Portnoy clearly doesn't understand, as exhibited by his comments attempting to demean this blog as one frequented by law students, is that this blog is the only real weapon law students have to fight back against firms that take this kind of action that screws them and could screw others in the future
627, this isn't just a blog, it is THE blog on biglaw news. show some respect.
Get with it Elliott!
This is the Age of the Internets
Actually, 5:54, the subject regarded rumors about the summer program, not "law school students." You're still an idiot.
- Not 4:49
good move by mcguirewoods to gobble up a full service firm now? will it let them weather the storm now and pick up finance on the upswing?
ATTTL
ATTTL
Sonnschein is the best disinfectant. Sorry.
Any insight on MooreVanAllen in Charlotte limiting bonuses to certain class years? I have heard rumors. How could not giving juniors bonuses as a policy be good for business?
Nice work, Lat. This Portnoy guy is clearly a complete imbecile. Unfortunately for Sonnenschein, his incompetence is likely to be matched by that of future associates, since no self-respecting law student/attorney will work for that miserable firm anytime soon.
Guileful Gil - that's adorable!
basically, don't piss off lat
6:55 ... it's good business because they're keeping them employed. Complain all you want, but in the Charlotte market, job security is more important that a little more money, because if you get laid off, you won't find another job.
I'm afraid that Sonnenschein gambled and lost. It isn't as if other law firms haven't shown the way to handle softness in the market and lay-offs in sincere, forthright and classy ways. Firms can be up-front about this. They thought they could do it under the radar and not broadcast trouble within the firm.
The people who are generally laid off in these situations are junior associates. (I fully admit that I have no idea what level the 2 Sonnenschein associates were.) The problem with this is that it becomes difficult for those associates to find work in a soft legal market, not only because lateral hiring may be down generally, but because they don't have any experience outside of a practice area that isn't hiring. So, they get to compete essentially with entry-level or junior associates. In 2002, some associates did not recover from this for a long time.
It is an unfortunate reality of a soft market that lay-offs sometimes occur. The best thing that Sonnenschein could have done would have been to offer employment in other practice groups or offices, and then to have been up front about the reduction in force.
I remember who handled the lay-offs badly in 2002. I'm sure attorneys who are more senior than me remember who handled them poorly in the early 1990's. The internet isn't at fault. This stuff stays in people's heads. Good PR and fair treatment of employees are important.
Keep up the good work, Lat
oh boy, not THE blog on biglaw!
what a mistake on my part
Lat -- I don't think you realize what an invaluable service you provide to law students. I'm a former mgmt consultant, and I only WISH the consulting industry had 1/10 of the transparency and accountability that the legal industry does (thanks in large part to websites like ATL). Some of the crap that consulting firms get away with wouldn't last for 5 minutes if there were comparable mechanisms like ATL keeping watch -- e.g., crappy collusive salaries (99% of top firm pay the same -- $125k for people with many more years experience than 25yo law grads), stealth layoffs, rescinded offers.
This law firm is gonna spend a lot more in the long term than it "saved" in the short term -- repairing their reputation over the next 5-10 years will cost a lot. I would have loved to have been at the meeting where the genius who came up with this plan explained how they're gonna save $300k this year but incur $500k in damage to their reputation. Public corps do this sort of thing b/c they have short time horizons -- but private partnerships are supposed to be immune from such idiotic, short-term decision-making. Guess not.
To 7:28?
I understand accounting and how not paying bonuses would reduce expenses for the firm. My point is larger, more toward that of the previous poster. The repuational risk as well as deterrence of future talented hires in a human capital-intensive business might be a shortsighted gain for the partners of MVA.
Why would NEW or INCOMING associates choose to go to MVA over another Charlotte firm if they could get a bonus elsewhere? Why did MVA recently raise salaries if they were going to deny bonuses? Why did they allow junior associates to toil all year under the assumption that they would be receiving hours-based bonuses, (as more senior associates did receive)and then deny those same hardworking associates?
I came from a lock-step firm, and this is a closet lock-step bonus policy in that shirkers are rewarded equally as overachievers. What about the people that work much, much harder than average there that got screwed?
But of course, maybe that's what you get for moving to a smaller legal market, like Charlotte.
All's I'm saying is that the firm could have better communicated their changing expectations and remuneration policies to their employees. The delivery was terrible, and MVA should be ashamed.
Sonnenshein is not the only Charlotte firm that should have it's tail between its legs. MVA should be outed as well.
lat, if you were a "reporter" - you'd refrain from bullsh!t like this:
"Stay classy, Sonnenschein."
this story has legs on its own without your petty comments. do you have an ax to grind here? your obsession with one firm's decision with regard to four - albeit very unfortunate - law students, when considered in light of that unnecessary gem, certainly makes one wonder.
don't you have anything else to write about?
8:21 - yeah, i'm sure lat, a yale law graduate and former wachtell associate, has an ax to grind against a rancid firm like sonnenschein....get a life. he's providing an invaluable service to law students and associates. this is the type of information that is most useful when it comes to choosing firms.
lat has gone out of his way to commend firms that have handled economic troubles the right way. a firm like sonnenschein that pulls this bullshit and tries to cover it up deserves a lot worse than the treatment it got from ATL.
just because lat adds some colorful commentary to his reporting does not mean that ATL is not a legitimate legal news outlet. welcome to the 21st century.
"As we contemplated this particular course of action, one of our gravest shared concerns was that this action would be misperceived as a lack of commitment to our Charlotte office. On this point, Jana, Jay and I are in complete accord -- our commitment to the Charlotte office, our colleagues there, and the Charlotte market generally, is unwavering. In fact, our Charlotte office continues to grow -- with the most recent additions being our new Chief Marketing Officer and a soon-to-be-announced Insurance Regulatory consultant. I was in Charlotte several weeks ago and met with our Charlotte associates to communicate our commitment to them and to the Charlotte market, and -- coincidentally -- Policy & Planning will be meeting in Charlotte next week as part of our rotating schedule of meetings in all Sonnenschein offices."
What a slap in the face to those law students who had their offers rescinded. They're hyping how their Charlotte office continues to grow while they're rescinding offers.
I'm glad I'm not working at that firm this summer.
"Why would anyone want to work at a firm that a normal person couldn't even pronounce?"
It means "Sunshine" in German. If ever there was a misnomer.
What I love is how much senior lawyer time went into making this really bad decision. This is why law firms shouldn't be run by lawyers. If these folks would get back to practicing law instead of making bad management decisions, there'd be no need for hard choices.
I love the bit about "specific practice groups" and "specific geography". There's a warning for you 2Ls out there; when you say "I really see myself in Charlotte long term" to Charlotte firms, and "I really see myself in Houston long term" to Houston firms, well, they'll use it as an excuse to screw you.
It doesn't make sense. Portnoy's bio says he went to Syracuse and that he also was a Rhodes Scholar. Did he lie on his Rhodes application? Isn't that risky? Can the Committee take the scholarship back if they find out, make him a "Dirt" scholar, or "Gravel" scholar instead? I hope he doesn't have a Facebook page. Who knows what he might have revealed there.
Lat - you have to do something about the kids drooling over Wachtel and Yale. It's embarrassing, and all the more so if it's you.
Why are they growing the Charlotte office if they have to rescind offers to 4 people? This guy is a douche and law students should beware. Great job, Lat. You're the Consumer Reports of the legal world.
What's up with A&B opening an office in Dallas?
Sonnenschein may not be the top law firm in the country but it's still a pretty powerful BigLaw firm with over 700 attorneys.
The question is, how will this affect its other offices -- especially places like Chicago, New York, and San Francisco -- its biggest offices.
Does anyone inside have any insight about the buzz in these places? Can any associates or summers at the firm comment on what's going on?
this porty guy has so much tact, one might even think he could be a lobbyist. .... wait....hmmmmm
I have heard good things about the Chicago office. Don't know if they are true.
Portnoy is an intellectual lightweight and he was just KOed by Lat. That's we bois like to do. We look innocent and sweet, but piss us off and we will come at you like a Baptist minister's wife stomping toward the all-you-can-eat Sunday brunch line.
Portnoy handled this as badly as anyone possibly could have.
What's funniest about all of this is per his own bio (http://www.sonnenschein.com/attorneys/index.aspx?aid=0003553), he claims to specialize in ". . . media relations and crisis communications strategy, and partnership development initiatives."
10:26, that is great! Ha!
10:26 once again proving that a lawyers worst client is himself.
Class move all the way!
Loyalty is a two way street.
People will remember.
The overwhelming majority of comments on ATL seem to come from immature law students (possibly even junior high school students).
If ATL wants firms to take it seriously, maybe it should try to clean up some of the idiotic comments.
I'm fairly certain that firms would be much more willing to respond to the WSJ blog than ATL at this point.
What's happening at sonnenschein sucks ... almost as bad as ATL's new layout.
Please go back to the old layout.
12:16, you idiot, ATL isn't in the business of "[wanting] law firms to take it seriously." The information doesn't come from the firms, it comes from associate tipsters at these firms. This is OUR blog. WE take it seriously, and partners take US seriously because they want to hire and retain top talent.
Go read the WSJ if you want, but you won't get any bonus info.
I would hardly call ATL commentators "top talent." Do you read some of the crap on here?
Are you kidding, 12:37, of course ATL readers/commentators are the country's top legal talent. Who else would care about bonus information, NYC to 190!, or dish on the top Vault firms? Every associate I know (my attorney friends and I are all biglaw) reads and comments on this site. My firm's admin peeps admit to checking this site daily as part of their JOBS.
I agree. I think everyone in biglaw reads ATL. I don't know anyone who hasn't heard of it. It is THE source for biglaw news. And why shouldn't it be. I mean, didn't Lat scoop everyone on this story?
Thanks for the excellent work, Lat . Please keep it up.
I second the comment about Sonnenschein moving toward lateral hiring and away from hiring new associates. This is based on one of their offices in a smaller market which did away with their summer program (not by taking back offers but by deciding not to hire any 2Ls) a few years back.
Sonnenschein will never recover from this TTT move. I don't see how the 3Ls will get through this without having their careers destroyed. I'd be stunned if they actually found biglaw jobs after this. It's f*cking April, and we're in a downturn. Portnoy's a piece of sh*t.
12:16: So you're saying you think Lat should censure the commenters so that only the best get through.
Maybe he should also start only allowing through comments that are favorable to the BigLaw firms? That would be useful...urrr.
outrage is appropriate for a firm's rescinding a summer's offer, especially a firm that has a national practice.
one big question: is the firm's explanation legit? did these two individuals decline being placed in another practice group and/or decline an offer of relocation? if they did, then the firm does not deserve the pillorying.
but who really believes the firm tried to accommodate these two?
I was going to apply to Sonnenschein during OCI in the Fall and guess what I still will. The only difference? I will try my best to get an offer from them and keep them dangling until the latest possible time, and then reject them...
Lat, I was about to give up on ATL when I thought you had to log in to post - lucky for you I noticed the "comment as guest" link.
You should know better than to make it seem like you need to register to post. We are in the legal profession and the most informative and funny posts would never appear on this site if people got the feeling they could be traced back to them.
"In particular, these four candidates had interests in both a specific practice group and a specific geography, where the firm's needs simply no longer matched their professional desires."
Just out of curiosity, did Sonnenschein offer these candidates positions in other practice groups or offices before rescinding their offers? One would think in the current market, the candidates might rethink their choice of practice area if it meant keeping a job in their desired geographic region. The firm could then move them over to their first-choice practice group after getting some valuable cross-training (e.g., general corporate, bankruptcy, etc...) The firm could have even gone one step further in today's technological age, namely, had them work for partners in other offices with most of their work assigned by e-mail. This is what firms do when there is plentiful work in other offices, but the talent is located in that has minimal work.
Sonnenschein is a decent firm, and Portney’s a smart guy by any measure. So I’m surprised that they handled this so poorly. At the very least, they should have offered the incoming first years spots in a different office and/or practice area. For the summer associates, they should have done the same thing or just eaten the $50K it would cost to keep them on for the summer. Sure they might save $200K, but now their senior management has a reputation for poor judgment and their recruiting will suffer for years. I know that the firm likes to hire laterals, but that’s certainly not a cheap strategy – recruiter fees are expensive.
10:26 & 11:09pm: Well said sir, well said.
welcome to teh internets elliot. infirmation move different here.
lateral expansion & elimination of summers: this growth strategy of theirs has been confirmed by a number of friends in their employ / sucks to be a person considering law school now
"Just out of curiosity, did Sonnenschein offer these candidates positions in other practice groups or offices before rescinding their offers?"
Purely specualtion, but it seems highly unlikely they offered them a different office/practice group. Otherwise, Sonn would have said they offered them other positions and they turned it down.
Additionally, its doubtful 4 people have such a narrow passion for Sonn in Charlotte that they would rather be jobless than doing corp somewhere else.
12:37 - ATL's readers span the broad spectrum of the legal profession, and as a legal recruiter I can assure you that the top talent in biglaw is not only reading ATL, but is acutely aware of how firms are perceived.
Anytime several summers or 3Ls with offers are given the boot, it is bad. This could affect their recruiting next fall, but if it is true that they only want to expand by hiring laterals then maybe they don't care. Not a place I would be hot to go interview with as a 2L...
"I remember who handled the lay-offs badly in 2002. I'm sure attorneys who are more senior than me remember who handled them poorly in the early 1990's. The internet isn't at fault. This stuff stays in people's heads. Good PR and fair treatment of employees are important."
ITA!!!!
-stepford wife
Look, no 3L or incoming summer associates is sitting at school right now thinking, "man, I can't wait to be a securitization lawyer, and with all that money i'm going to make, because it's a hot new finance field, I'm going to invest in pets.com." They're just not that stupid. If they were smart enough to get the offer, they're smart enough to know they're not going to find something else, so they would have happily done a different kind of work or moved out of the city for a short period to make sure they had a job.
Portney is a condescending prick, and rather than admit to them screwing over the kids, he's trying to put some of the blame on them, and that's the weakest part of this whole thing.
I don't understand why they rescinded the summer offers. What did they save...maybe $100k? Probably much less.
Big firm partners routinely make the most asinine business decisions. Why, because they always see the extra $$ they could add to their pockets this year. Every dollar saved, to them, equals x in their pocket. The funny part is how this will eventually cost them much more than it saved them this year. Especially when this TTT firm implodes and no one even wants to put it on their resume.
law students should print out this post and pass it out at oci next year to remind people about this
Call me crazy, but I actually think, if a summer wants to do securitization, now may be a good time to get into that area. Almost all law students will avoid this practice area this summer (rightfully so), as well as most law firms don't have much work tfor them to do re structured finance.
So Basically in these large firms, in Fall of 2009 there will not be very many 1st year associates in the practice area--and when work begins to pick up (which it will) they will be a hot commodity.
10.51, You're crazy.
Any shortfall will be happily replaced with laterals and cotnract attorneys thrown on scrap heap at moment.
Well, if the comments stating that Sonnenschein is now going to recruit laterally and pretty much phase out the summer program are true, this decision is actually not terrible. No doubt, it was handled terribly by Portnoy. But, assuming this is the strategy, what does Sonnenschein care if they piss off law students if the firm is not going to recruit them in the future anyway? Laterals, particularly partners, aren't going to give a fark (or even remember) that the firm screwed over some summers and incoming associates a few years back. As a mid-level or a senior associate, would you give it much thought? Also, what happens in one practice group in one city does not necessarily have a significant impact on the hiring in other offices in other cities.
And 9:45, recruiter fees pale in comparison to the training costs associated with first and even second year attorneys. Sonnenschien's strategy might not work for all firms, but I've heard of some high-quality mid-size firms using it very successfully.
Everyone, structured finance is not dead, it is just slow (cyclical)--weather the storm and it will be back up and running in a year or two.
10:51, I’m not sure you appreciate how dead securitization is right now. Deal flow has come to a complete halt and most securitization associates are twiddling their thumbs or being farmed out to work on document reviews for litigation. Every firm with substantial securitization related practices is taking a pretty big hit by not laying off associates. Needless to say, there aren’t many securitization groups that would take on new associates. The problem is that all of these securitized products have become totally illiquid. There’s absolutely no market for the billions of dollars of this stuff that already exist. Eventually that will change, but it’s going to be several years before demand comes in line with the existing supply. And all of that is going to have to happen first before banks start cranking out offerings of new securitized notes. Even if you could join a securitization practice, it would be years before you got any meaningful experience.
11.31, don't you know that a law blog is not the place for a voice of reason.
CMBS, RMBS anything MBS or BS in general will of course be back, but we lawyers like to go from extreme to extreme. NYC to 190 followed by the sky is falling in CLT. In truth, just like Junk Bonds, just like IT, just like Communications, a good product that makes money always comes back, but the bad companies get weeded out, as do the greedy ones (excessively greedy ones) who pushed too far. But it will be back, but where is the fun in realizing that when you can just announce it is dead, fire people and then try and hire them back later......
Wow, you killed these guys, David. Good hits all.
And the site is working on blackberries again. (yay)
I'm in CLT, and even the General Counsel of Wachovia has said there is virtually no need for securitization lawyers right now. Yes, it will come back, but it's not going to be like it was leading up to this point. Everything regresses to the mean, and even when it comes back at normal (not the ultra-inflated levels of 2004-2007) these groups are still overhired even if they don't add anyone.
11:39 hit the nail on the head, yes, there will be some opportunities for first years to sit around for awhile waiting for it to come back, but you'll have no meaningful experience, and everyone knows that. You'll be a 4th year with the knowledge of a 1st or 2nd, and it would be better to actually learn a skill, than to just sit around waiting for a market to rebound.
by the way, for those that think securitization isn't dead ... CWT Charlotte is down to 75 attorneys (79 including staff attorneys) from almost 120 18 months ago.
1129, as a lateral, it would matter very much to me. this firm makes sh*tty, oafish decisions. i would not want my fortune tied in with these people.
if they were my only offer, then yah, i'd bite the bullet.
I agree 10:18. If I were one of those 3Ls, I would have gone to any office and worked in just about any practice group. rather than sit around unemployed for God knows how long. They're not going to get something else in their market, in capital markets, and they know it. Portnoy's explanation isn't even remotely possible.
9:45, senior management has made a number of horrible decisions in the past. they just haven't been blown up like this one has. i would not take a spot in this firm, at any level, if i had other options. i don't want to be surrounded by, or subject to the whims of people who make such bad decisions.
12:35, its not such a "sh*tty, oafish decision" if they don't care to recruit law students any longer. I can see why someone would take issue with the poor handling by SNR, even as a lateral. But, other than that, the business reasons for the decision make sense. Work was slow and SNR is phasing out the summer program. If the firm determined cuts were needed, incomings/summers in slow office were the logical place to start.
Wait. Is Sonnenschein Big Law? If so, I need a definition, please...
12:52 - stop being so naive. How a firm treats its potential employees (ie law students) is EXACTLY how they will treat their laterals. Being a lateral does not mean, the firm will roll out the red-carpet for you. SNR has established itself as a gutter of a law firm and it will pay for many years. EVeryone understands the business siutaion for this - hell I am even okay with law firms firing lawyers when things are not going well, but the pretentious, condescending manner retard Portnoy has addressed this is completely unacceptable.
I'm a 1L-to-be at HLS right now and you better believe I (and my peers) will remember this come OCIs...
"these four candidates had interests in both a specific practice group and a specific geography"
Yea, I'm sure those incoming summer associates were focused like a laser beam. The fact that they are bringing in 50 summers and 24 new associates makes it all the more pathetic that they couldn't make spots for these four people. It would have been peanuts out of the partners' pockets but instead they go and turn the careers of these people upside down.
12:52, they haven't stopped recruiting law students yet, and they're not going to anytime soon. Plus, I would not want to be an associate at a place that makes such crappy decisions because at some point they'd be making a crappy, oafish decision about me.
If I were a lateral partner, I wouldn't want to work with them either. If it were the best I could do, fine.
If you think this will only hurt them with law students, you're an idiot.
For all the crap we give ATL, it is really serving a great public purpose for lawyers right now by identifying the true TTTs of BIGLAW. SNR is right at the top of this TTT list...
102, they have 700 attys, and pay market (at least to first years). I think that makes them biglaw.
exactly 104. point is that they treat their people like shit, and they don't even do it competently.
SNR to #1 TTT!
SNR to #1 TTT!
The moment the open thread hit ATL Portnoy should have called the Sonnenschein 4 and offered to transfer them to other offices, and sworn them to secrecy about the firm's initial incompetent, oafish, disaster of a decision. Then he should have immediately responded to ATL and said, "no no, we've offered them transfers. Charlotte's hurting right now, but we're doing the best we can to keep our oafish incompetence from destroying lives."
MVA is a horrible firm
1:02 - If you're going to Harvard, S doesn't give a crap about what you think. They never had a chance in recruiting you anyway.
1:02
How would you have any clue how firms treat laterals? Believe me, it varies widely from attorney to attorney, department to department, office to office and firm to firm. What might be a great move for one attorney is a sh*t move for another. If you are making sweeping generalizations about an entire firm based on one personnel decision in one city in one practice area, well, you're just failing to see the forest for the trees. Typical herd mentality of law students and law school in general. You are correct on one thing; there's no question Portnoy bungled the delivery big-time.
FWIW, I don't work at SNR. Never have. Likely never will. Hell, I don't even particularly care for some of their lawyers in my practice area.
Okay, how about this (and i'm not 1:02) ...
Sonnenschein took the partners from Kilpatrick Stockton, who brought their associates with them, who used to have jobs. They then brought in a couple laterals from other firms in Charlotte. They then laid off some associates they took from Kilpatrick Stockton, who now, cannot find jobs in Charlotte, and can't go back to Kilpatrick.
Yea, they sure treat 'em great there, where do i sign up. I haven't been kicked in the nuts in a while, I'm sure that's the signing bonus...
1:15 ~ now why would you go and say something like that and NOT give details!
why is MVA so horrible!?
The only logical reason someone would say MVA is horrible (if they know the Charlotte legal market) is if they didn't extend you an offer. And, no, I don't and am not going to work for MVA.
From what I've seen, they've got a pretty decent bunch of lawyers.
" In fact, our Charlotte office continues to grow -- with the most recent additions being" our Director of Corporate 'Right-Sizing'
" In fact, our Charlotte office continues to grow -- with the most recent additions being" our Director of Corporate 'Right-Sizing'
lesson of the week: don't fuck with lat!!
A question I have not seen anyone else answer yet is what should firms do.
There are a number of Biglaw firms that have a large number of associates working in securitization and related fields and a large number of Summers coming in. What should they do. It seems everyone agrees that Shitholewheresundontshine handled it wrong, but what should they do:
a)Fire associates but keep incoming class and summers
b)Keep incoming class and no offer the summers
c)done nothing and bunker down hoping it all gets better?
Really, what do we expect companies and businesses to do. I am talking specifically about Biglaw, which long ago stopped being a profession and became a business.
933, this was four people. in this situation, they should have offered them spots in other offices. you don't string them along until April then give them the boot. these peoples' careers are most likely f*cked. most of them probably could have gone somewhere else.
Since the major securitization shops (TPW, CWT, etc.) will need to cut down its CapMarks and Real Estate departments, won't they try to grow their other departments like litigation and bankruptcy? Wouldn't these firms want to extend offers to all of its incoming summer associates to grow other practice areas?
As for the 4 that were screwed, I sincerely wish them good luck and I really hope they're able to find new employment.
1:19, take a look at Sonnenschein's attorneys' pedigree. Over 50 from Harvard, 25 from Yale, 22 from Stanford, 70+ from Northwestern, 50+ from Michigan, 40+ from Berkeley- and they are a Chicago based firm. Say what you will, the top ten grads are there.
6:27 is a rabid Sonnenschein troll. Sorry about your toilet firm bro.
6:27, either you work at shitschein, and it is sad that you took time to post the stats you had to hand, or you actually took time to research their website.
Either way, you are one sad person. Hang your head in shame.
Also, what do these top ten grads think of the shitty decisions being taken in Charlotte with, aparently, the full support of the MP of the entire firm. What would you think if your firm made these type of sloppy decisions (focusing on it being poorly handled, and bad decision making, rather than fact that something had to occur)?
These top 10 grads should be disgusted with this toilet bowl firm. I understand things are tough in Charlotte, but you can't transfer 4 people? *spits on this toilet firm*
You law students crack me up with your attitudes and entitlement issues. No wonder I hated law school so much.
Just wait until you are all associates and you get a taste of what reality is... in a down market, people suffer in niche groups hit hard by the downturn. Period. Yeah, it sucks but that's life. It's business. Could they have handled it better? Maybe, but that's an easy call for you all sitting from the sidelines.
Personally, I'd much rather be a newbie with no experience scrambling for a job elsewhere than someone with four years behind them (who is more expensive) trying to hold on to their current position. Think how much it sucks for THOSE people. And don't think for a second that those people haven't worked their asses off because CMBS from 2002 - 2006 was brutal. And I mean brutal.
Oh yeah, you'll all be in their shoes in a couple of years... then see how responsive you are to the "poor me" claims of incoming 1Ls.... whatever.
9.53, as a 5th year associate in this niche market I assure you that commenting on how fellow associate and incoming associates are handled does not come from any sense of entitlement. In fact, the entitlement issues seem to come from other experienced lawyers who laugh at the poor plight of other associates and seem to take glee in the down turn of the conduit market.
The real issue here is how the legal system works to hire for BIGLAW. You bust your ass in 1L, get summer job based on your 1L grades during 2L, work between 2L and 3L and the assumption is that if you don't mess up, you get hired after 3L. That is the BIGLAW way. If you fall off that conveyor belt, then you are, without a shaddow of a doubt, fucked, if BIGLAW was what you wanted.
The issue is not entitlement, it is that these poor students and new attorneys to be, are now on a scrap heap. It will take them years to get to the EXACT SAME POSITION as they would have been had they accepted a DIFFERENT offer. I find it hard to believe that this firm was only offer they had, and they relied on the commitment of those making the offers.
And, it is not even about the students but that a company made this business decision to ruin these careers in order to save, roughly, $350,000. You let go someone like me and you save $200,000 plus bonus and I use my connections to try and get another job. I have BIGLAW experience and BIGLAW loves one of its own, but if you never get in then you find that door closed for a long time. We BIGLAW lawyers are a pain in the ass at the best of times, but if you don't appreciate what happened here, if you think that this toilet firm does not deserve scorn then you truly have become removed from actual bread and butter reality.
I pity you.
Ha. Pity yourself. You clearly have enough hate in your heart to go around for all of us.
I'm just saying that the insinuation that these decisions are made lightly or carelessly or with malice is ridiculous. It's business.
Does it suck? Of course. Now you can go back to hating your life. I left BIGLAW and am doing just fine. Maybe you should do the same.
10:28, we each make our decisions, and I am glad yours worked out. Not sure how you read my post and concluded that I have lots of hate in my heart. Disgust yes, but not hate. I love my job and my firm. Would not trade it for anything, though may have to if things remain this bad. I am annoyed with attitudes such as yours that these are spoilt law students. This really is a bigger issue. If my firm did this I would be appalled. Thankfully we haven't. This is poor management, poor leadership, poor foresight and poor pr. Decisions have to be made and I think this decision, while maybe not made lightly, was taking an easy way out. How ballsy of you to "fire" 4 people who you have never really interacted with or met for that long.
Again, if you think my post is filled with hate then you have confused disgust with hate, and hopefully you have never really experienced hate. I am happy to do what I do, and I am sorry if I took the time to feel sorry for those who won't get that chance. Not everyone in Biglaw wants to get out, and not everyone who leaves is happy. Lucky for both of us we are content where we are.
11:03 - I'm sorry, but I think it shows one's character to put out there "I PITY YOU" just because the other person does not share your viewpoint. Maybe not hateful, but I would say you probably have anger issues.
And I feel sorry for them too, I do. I wasn't addressing their situation specifically, but the majority of the comments on this post, where these people seem so removed from the reality of the world... as if we are impervious to market fluctuations just because we are lawyers... it's that attitude that I personally find annoying.... especially considering the fact that it's ultimately a business equation - and if you bring people on you don't need - you might have to let go of those that have put in their time at the firm, and my sympathies are truly with those that are already mid-career, who have busted their asses, and who are wondering what's going to happen next. Like you. Those are the folks that I truly feel bad for.
A 1-L is not entrenched in a practice and is not expensive, and has FAR more options. That's all I was saying.... and if you disagree, then I PITY YOU!
(not really, just thought I'd throw that in there for good measure...)
We are lucky. But being here didn't come easy. You and I both know that.
Agreed.
No one talks about the partners that are de-equitized, demoted to of counsel or pushed out the door, or the mid-level and senior associates that are pushed out all the time due to cost-cutting. These are the people that really suffer. They start a life and a family with the (often mistaken) assumption that their income stream will continue unabated and grow year after year, but the economic logistics of bigfirm existence neither know nor care about that. Stop lamenting 4 students in Charlotte who shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket, and look at the bigger picture. Everybody in biglaw is expendendable - I see it all the time - the only people in my firm who are bulletproof have $10 million books. Everyone else should be looking over their shoulder. Including me.
"Stop lamenting 4 students in Charlotte who shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket, and look at the bigger picture."
Are you kidding 1:17 you retard? They had no choice but to "put all their eggs in one basket," it's not like they could have held open other offers until April. That's the thing, when you take an offer, you have to reject the rest.
And when those more senior people get pushed out, at least they can find other jobs. The 3Ls (and probably the 2Ls too) are probably screwed for life. I don't see how they could possibly get other biglaw gigs. They'll probably end up starting at 60K in some small firm dump. Like most law students they probably have massive loans, so now they're effed in the A because they expected Sonnenschein to keep it's promise.
1:17, seriusly? Seriously? We should feel for partners who get "de-equitized, demoted to of counsel or pushed out the door"? They are the exact people I have no problem getting fucked by the system. Get rid of the fat, the useless partners, the senior associate who add nothing. That would have been the brave thing to do. Instead, tehy destroy careers before they have begun.
Shame, shame on this shit firm.
Has anyone heard anything about Sonnenschein cancelling its big annual Chicago retreat for its summers this year?
What's with all the hoopla? There are plenty of government jobs out there. Bill Clinton took one. Barack Obama did the same.
Ew. I would not want to work for him.
I was a junior associate at Sonnenschein and quickly went to another firm after they introduced a salary holdback policy (since rescinded, at least in NY). Basically, if you didn't meet your hours, you didn't get the standard lockstep raise. Even though I didn't have a problem meeting my minimum billables, I felt totally stabbed in the back. Shit, at most firms if you make your minimum hours you get a bonus. All you got at Sonnenschein was to NOT have your salary held back. It's a shame, because there are so many great people there (Portnoy excluded), but I fear for the future and the impending lack of talent that will fill their junior ranks.
Hey 12:35, I'm supposed to work at SNR. Can you tell us a little bit about how their compensation scheme works now? Is it competitive? Unfortunately, after all that's happened, I'm starting to have second thoughts about this place.
3:02:
The salary is definitely competitive with top firms. The bonus structure is below-market. Don't expect a bonus for making your minimum, but then again, the minimum is 1950 (you can count 100 hours to pro bono) and there isn't pressure to bill more than that. Obviously if you're on a huge project and cross the 1950 mark you can't suddenly stop working, but I never felt pressured to go above the minimum just to boost ppp. The bonus is lockstep with certain hour milestones (2100, 2250, 2400), but that may have changed, and again, it pales in comparison to other places. Future reference: ask these questions of the firm before accepting offers!
In terms of reconsidering the place, it's tough because I don't know if you are a 2L, 3L or a lateral, which office (though I wouldn't disclose that here if I were you) or what group you are going into. If this will be your first law firm job, my advice is to give it a chance. Yeah, the firm has made some douchebag decisions. And they will again, but my current firm fucks up too, as do all firms, though I'm sure people here will get their panties in a bunch for my saying that.
Don't let a couple of dumb decisions by a few people--even core people--freak you out. I know that most (all?) of the senior partners in the NY Office were like "WTF?!?!" when they introduced the salary holdback (the Chicago office made that dumb call). And yes, I felt betrayed and left, but there were a number of reasons I left, mostly because my current firm had an awesome opening in a practice area that SNR wasn't doing a lot of work in. I wasn't miserable at SNR, just had a great opportunity elsewhere. The holdback pissed me off and made the decision to leave a lot easier, but I would have left anyway. Maybe just not as promptly.
True, I am shocked about the offer rescissions, but I think they learned their lesson on that one, and maybe the salary holdback was an attempt to deal with low billables without laying people off. Who knows though. Maybe things really have fundamentally changed since I left, but I doubt it, and I know that there are a lot of brilliant lawyers at SNR that really care about their junior associates, at least in NY. And I do worry about them, but I meant that more in the sense that I hate seeing a great place having their reputation damaged because of fucking Portnoy.
Wow, longwinded. Hope this helps.
-12:35
I worked in the NY office for a spell. There are some smart people there, of course, but there are a lot of bone headed decisions coming out of that place. I'm not at all surprised that Portnoy made this idiotic decision and then handled it TERRIBLY. Plus they're a bunch of slackers (in the NY office, in my humble opinion). For those two reasons, I wouldn't want my fate tied in with them. Also, some of the juniors just seemed quite dumb (in my humble opinion).