I'd rather see more informercial posts from headhunters than this continuing slew of makespace polls on useless topics. First.

Actually, these polls are not bad. And the similar thread about preferred email sign-offs was one of the best I've seen here.

Patent attorney

12:28 - I agree with 12:29. These are fun threads.

If you don't like ATL, don't read it. So many haters in the comments here.

Based on regional dialect, it might change. Lawyer sounds silly when uttered by a midwesterner (where I am), whereas attorney has a better ring to it. You find more people using Attorney in STL (not that anyone on ATL cares about STL, except to bash WUSTL's ranking)

Yup, I agree that these threads are great (and it's "blackline," nerds).

Attorney sounds a little more formal, I think.

Shark.

12:35 - I agree that "attorney" sounds more formal - and therefore pretentious.

I go with "lawyer."

Other: "Well-Paid Parasite."

Consigliere.

- Tom Hagen

RIP, ATL

- King of WGWAG

P.S. How about putting up a poll about whether WGWAG properly refers to "asian girls" or "white guys." Which is it, folks? Let the voters decide.

Loyal Servant of Xenu

maybe somewhat in jest, but as a 1st year, recall someone making distinction that "attorney" stemmed from "attorney-at-law" (meaning passed bar and is licensed), whereas "lawyer" could also mean someone who attended law school but not necessarily licensed to practice. personally, i prefer "attorney". also, i've seen some firms include "attorneys-at-law" in firm marketing, but don't ever recall seeing "lawyers-at-law".

"Attorney" is not specific enough. It could mean "attorney at law" (=lawyer) but it could also refer to a person with any kind of power of attorney. (Acting in whatever capacity for someone else.)

"Attorney at law" would be fine, but that's just too formal to use in casual conversation.

It is not a good sign for our profession that the solicitation for atttorney synonyms requires the caveat "no profanity please".

12:33 - ONLY with a reg number, of course. To distinguish from the wannabe "patent litigators"

12:45 - and on a blog read mostly by attorneys themselves, no less.

Litigatrix.

I'm curious if people include "Esq." in their signature block on e-mail. I do not.

I read this from a reputable source once (Garner or someone), and I never forgot it b/c I had no fuckin idea:

We are lawyers. We are not attorneys. We are someone's, or some entity's, attorney. Being an "attorney" implies a current representation of a client. It's therefore technically wrong to say, in response to a question of what we do, "I'm an attorney."

And although this distinction has been lost, it makes sense considering that someone who's not a lawyer can have power of attorney.

I prefer Garner's view that "attorney" should be used to indicate the representative capacity. I use "lawyer" to refer to myself and others unless it matters that I'm the lawyer for some particular person or party.

But, more importantly, it's absolutely terrible that "attorney" has become an honorific, as in "This is Jane, calling from Attorney Jones's office."

Whatever it is, the firm should choose one and not interchange

However -- "attorney at law " seems like a dumbass thing to put on a business card or letterhead

Esquire is pretentious and a desperate sign that, even though the person is working in a TTT job, he or she is not trash personally and once went through law school (albeit usually a TTT). Notice how all the lexis/westlaw reps and barbri employees like to put Esq. after their names, if they can.

The only proper use of esquire is when addressing another lawyer in a formal letter. Never use it for yourself.

Lawyer is anyone who graduates from law school. Attorney is someone who practices law.

From the movie "Angel Heart":

Harry Angel (Mickey Rourke):

"Of course I know what an attorney is.

It's like a lawyer, only the bills are bigger."

Legal Counsel, for in-house attorney

I prefer "law-talkin' guy."

Also, alot of this comes down to the old-as-the-hills discussion on prescriptive v. descriptive grammar and usage. There may be (or have been) an actual distinction between the two terms (as discussed in other comments), but the common usage is to treat them as interchangeable.

Legal Counsel- for in-house attorney

poop

We can call ourselves whatever we want; the general public is still going to hate us. That said, I prefer lawyer because it sounds less pretentious.

Lat, start a poll on using "esquire" after an attorney's name. I think that, like Dr., it's inappropriate to refer to one's self as "esquire." For example, on the signature line of a pleading, letter or e-mail, "esquire" should not follow a lawyer's name. (That really bugs me.) When a lawyer is referenced or discussed in the third person, however, it's appropriate to refer to him/her as "esquire."

(Knock on door)

Who's there?

Plumber.

Flowers.

Candy.

Is that you again, you silly shark?

No, ma'am, I'm just a dolphin.

Well, okay. (Opens door)

(Is devoured by person in shark suit, while screaming, and Jaws music plays.)

Attorney if person has an IQ above 90; lawyer if below.

The key difference is in found the etymology.

Attorney comes from the early French "aturner," meaning to assign or appoint. The "aturne" stands in the shoes of another. He is literally the voice of the the client. This is why the definitions all point to a stronger agency relationship when the word attorney is used. We allow lay people most of the powers of attorneys, such as the obvious "power of attorney." This is also why the formal designation for the licensed attorney is attorney-at-law (to differentiate between the lesser attorney-in-fact or power of attorney).

Lawyer is the more specific term. It is simply the combination of the word "law" and the early French suffix "iere" (later Anglicanized as "yere" and then modernized as "yer"). Obvious to anyone who has studied French or any romance language, "iere" is an instrumental suffix. When attached to a word it simply means the subject is "doing" the prefix. Hence a lawiere/lawyere/lawyer is merely someone who "does law."

An attorney is an agent. A lawyer is one who practices law.

Lawyer is the more precise term for the modern American practitioner of law.

I agree with the above comments that lawyer is more informal, so if somebody asks me what I do, I say I'm a lawyer. But if I am writing a brief or something, and need to use it, I'll use attorney.

I just pulled a huge boog out of my nose.

Love the thread. Way too many haters around...

"Somewhat intelligent people who didn't take a chance in life"

"160 plus bonus"

"I'm smarter than those rich clients" (Angry voice)

Garner's Modern American Usage:
Technically, lawyer is the more general term, referring to one who practices law. Attorney literally means "one who is designated to transact business for another.'"
* * *
From the fact that an attorney is really an agent, Bernstein deduces that "a lawyer is an attorney only when he has a client. It may be that the desire of lawyers to appear to be making a go of their profession has accounted for their leaning toward the designation attorney." Yet this distinction between lawyer and attorney is rarely, if ever, observed in practice.

(internal citations omitted).

Prostitute. It has the singular virtue of crystallizing the essence of the act.

@ 1:07: I've found the people who use "Esq." in their email signatures are the ones who went to lousy law school.

In casual conversation, I think "lawyer" and "attorney" are fairly interchangeable.
When I am asked "What do you do?" (although I would prefer to respond "when?"), I'll use one or the other without giving it any thought. I doubt it makes it difference. No one's ever asked me to clarify what I mean by attorney.

Overseas, particularly in Asia, the term "attorney" is very rarely used and creates quite a bit of confusion.

If your firm does global business, get used to using "lawyer" everywhere.

what about people who have a law degree, but don't practice? I have routinely heard such people refer to themselves as lawyers.

At least one person I know was under the impression that an attorney is someone who is practicing, but a lawyer is someone with a JD, but that doesn't practice.

Esquire is for douchebags.

Someone told me once that you are a "lawyer" when you graduate from law school and an "attorney" when you pass the bar. That person was not the most reliable authority, though, so it is probably BS. I use both, but prefer attorney.

I'm with TX girl's dad: attorney conveys intelligence and respect; lawyer doesn't. I've noticed that most laypeople tend to refer to us as "lawyers" while most attorneys refer to themselves as such. This is especially true of attorneys at T1 schools, big firms, etc. I.e. the non-ambulance chasers.

I'm with TX girl's dad: attorney conveys intelligence and respect; lawyer doesn't. I've noticed that most laypeople tend to refer to us as "lawyers" while most attorneys refer to themselves as such. This is especially true of attorneys at T1 schools, big firms, etc. I.e. the non-ambulance chasers.

Lots of people who use "esquire" on emails claim it helps make clear that the email is coming from an attorney for privilege reasons. The name of a law firm seems to make that clear, but whatever.

I view the distinction as a lesser version of the difference between the words "liberal" and "progressive" in the following sense:

For ages, practitioners of the law have been maligned in "lawyer jokes." Accordingly, the term "lawyer" carries with it a great deal of negative baggage.

The term "attorney" does not, as one does not usually make an "attorney joke." It's always "a lawyer walked into a bar..."

For this reason, I consider attorney the better word of introduction if I want to maximize favorable responses.

How about this question: What do you call a person who graduates from law school and is licensed to practice law, but is serving a judicial clerkship and is not actually practicing law?

I am such a person and had this debate with my girlfriend (she is a non-lawyer/non-attorney) because she once said that I was "not yet a lawyer" since I wasn't practicing yet.

When asked, I say I'm a lawyer. Then if asked what exactly I do, I say I work for a judge.

When is Roger Lou going to weigh in on this critical issue?

Sausage King of Chicago

Lawyer = someone with a JD
Attorney = someone admitted to the bar

1:33, you are a lawyer. Some professors haven't practiced a day in their lives but are considered lawyers.

Who is Rex Grossman?

How about this question: What do you call a person who graduates from law school and is licensed to practice law, but is serving a judicial clerkship and is not actually practicing law?

I am such a person and had this debate with my girlfriend (she is a non-lawyer/non-attorney) because she once said that I was "not yet a lawyer" since I wasn't practicing yet.

When asked, I say I'm a lawyer. Then if asked what exactly I do, I say I work for a judge.

Thanks 1:09. One doesn't expect helpful comments on this blog.

1:38, I'd say you are an "ATL repeat-commenter douche."

How about this question: What do you call a person who posts the same inane question twice, feels the need to brag that he has a girlfriend, and his clerkship?

I vote for d-bag.

1:33 here - sorry for the double post. got an error message after the first one and i didnt see it on the board so i thought something fucked up.

1:37 - thanks for the input.

1:38, um...I'm guessing law clerk.

French for attorney is avocat. Aturner is gibberish.

1:44, what do you call someone who thinks that another guy is bragging just because he mentions his girlfriend? I vote "herpes-having douch."

Good work 1:19. Lat - poor form only citing to dictionary definitions without consulting a usage dictionary.

Stupidest poll ever.

I don't think the Ethics Board would very much like recent law grads calling themselves lawyers before they pass the bar. In this intermittent period between graduation and the bar exam, in my own eyes, I am first a douchebag for having gone to law school, second a Juris Doctor or "Doctor of law", and third a 'tard for seeing myself as a "Doctor of law".

Have JD but haven't passed the bar - "law graduate" (yes, I have seen people with this job title)

Practicing law - lawyer (though I use attorney interchangeably and nobody cares) -- and to 1:33(1), you ARE practicing law because the judge or the court is your client

Esq. - OK to use as suffix to distinguish between legal/non-legal correspondence -- as for Bar/Bri folks who use it, I think that's OK since they want to show they too went through the process and passed the bar and are not just lay salespeople

seriously, who would eat hot pockets when lean pockets are a perfectly good, non-fatty substitute? Is it the higher salt content? That's it right? The fact that it has more salt?

1:50--More like 'female lawyer tired of hearing male lawyers bring up gfs/other random-ass credentials in an attempt to up their social status and actually get laid.' (Bonus points for practicing on the internet where no actual sex will ensue.)

pettifogger.

Laywer. Attorney sounds snotty and pretentious. People are intimidated by attorneys but are always ready to talk to a lawyer.

Personally, I like "mouthpiece" yo!

Laywer. Attorney sounds snotty and pretentious. People are intimidated by attorneys but are always ready to talk to a lawyer.

Personally, I like "mouthpiece" yo!

In Connecticut and probably other New England states, judges and litigants address the lawyers in court as "Attorney Smith," "Attorney Jones," etc.

Papermill Monkey
or
Transaction Cost Generator

1:59, wow, we have a rare female bag-o-douche in our midst!!

He was relaying a conversation with his girlfriend. I guess you think he should have said he had a conversation with "a person--not necessarily a friend, I don't want to be seen as bragging that I have friends or anything . . . "

dude do they even HAVE a pepperoni lean pocket?

2:06--Hi, 1:33/1:38. You aren't fooling anyone.

Divljan Shatterhand Steele

Garner says "Esq." and "Esquire" are honorifics and should only be used in addressing someone else. You should never put either after your own name. It's like calling yourself "Mister." I mean really, does anyone ever introduce themselves in conversation as "Tom Jones, Esquire?" Shades of Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute.
And back to original post that started this--the person who told our correspondent that he should use "lawyer" because "attorney" means "ambulance chaser" is an idiot.

it's only bragging if you say something like "US supreme court clerkship" or "smokin hot girlfriend." for all anyone knows he was talking about a court in arkansas and a fattie.

guys from my high school introduced themselves as attorneys all the time. it was no big deal.

1:16- highly credited

Scum of the earth is the term I've heard most frequently.

1:53: I thought you couldn't ever use Esq. when referring to yourself (i.e. a signature line).

1:35: That was always my understanding of the distinction b/w attorney and lawyer, as well.

3Ls at my law school conducted stupid surveys all the time. it was no big deal.

rapper or rap artist? or emcee?

Jay-Z or Jigga Man? or HOVA?

Notorious or Big Pappa? or The Black Frank White? or Biggie Smalls? or Christopher Wallace? or just BIG?

Big Boi or Antwan Patton? or Daddy Fat Sacks? or Lucius Left Eye?

Andre 3000 or pre-upgrade 2000?

we're all men of many names. it's just semantics not science.

I always go with lawyer just because attorney sounds pretentious

Yes, they do have pepperoni lean pockets. I just ate one, and it was delicious. http://www.hotpockets.com/lean/products/products.asp?ID=368#10148

scroll down to see, block-o!

Time Keeper 04389

Okay, 2:23, I'm sold. Mmmm, pepperoni....

Insisting on being called an attorney rather than a lawyer is like insisting on journalist rather than reporter or (in some circumstances) meteorologist rather than weatherman.

Lawyer is just a four letter word with 2 extra letters.

Herro, dees ees Loger Rou. I rike rawyer.

Rater!

In new york, the answer is neither. Yer a lawyuh.

"Attorney" comes off as (yet another) pompous attempt to sound important by electing to use the moniker with more syllables. In short, it's just another way in which "attorneys" in effect confirm the truth of negative stereotypes about our increasingly un-prestigious occupation.

Just sayin' is all.

Esq. is utterly absurd. No one with any true sense of self respect will use it, only those with inflated senses of self-importance. An email or letter with a signature block that includes an Esq. or Esquire is immediately classified as dbaggery nonsense.

I am Star Jones and I am an attorney!

2:42--which two?

3:05: Agreed. The use of the "Esq." suffix is appropriate only for letter addressees and people being cc'd (e.g., to let non-lawyer addressees know that they're up against a cadre of "attorneys" should they foolishly decline the one-sided demands in your letter).

I also think that partners whose email signature blocks contain the word "Partner" should be awarded summary induction into the D-bag Hall of Fame.

I put Esq when I apply for credit cards so I get a higher spending limit.

Concur with Turd Ferguson's analysis re the difference between the two terms, although I also agree that when speaking in public at a cocktail party full of non-lawyers/attorneys, nobody really cares.

Attorney is clearly the agency aspect of representing or transacting business on behalf of another. Thus, District Attorney (the lawyer who represents the District), U.S. Attorney (the lawyer who represents the U.S.) etc.

In New York, I've heard law firm firm associates at my firm and others use both terms interchangeably, although Attorney tends to have a more formal ring to it than Lawyer.

I prefer "prosecutor". No opinion for those not in that specific job title, but the government seems to prefer attorney (U.S. Attorney, State's Attorney, District Attorney). *shrug*

Janitor...or 1 step above doorman.

Neither one matters. I rarely admit what I do for a living. Why invite the hate?

Here is the real question...

"What is the difference between Attorney's and Counselors?"

"Law Talking Guy"

- duh

From the Economist Style Guuide:

"Prefer doctors to physicians and lawyers to attorneys."

http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=673931

What should we recent, non-barred law school graduates call ourselves? I think "laywer" would work. "Attorney" surely wouldn't.

HOMOSEXUAL. Why, you may ask? Simple - 'cos we are always taking it up the ass.

No, you shouldn't call yourself a lawyer, because you are not yet licensed to practice law. Saying you have a law degree, are a law school graduate, etc., are all appropriate.

"The difference between 'litigators' and trial attorneys is that 'litigators' are always prepared - but never ready."

Terry McCarthy, FPD Chicago

I've got no preference between attorney and lawyer, but the use of "Attorney ________" as a way to refer to someone is intolerable.

"Illusion," Michael.

341 - right on! I don't tell people what I do unless I have to. It can be a real f'n drag at parties. I'm a patent lawyer, and everyone wants to talk about patenting their shitty ideas as soon as they find out what I do. Bottom line, silence is golden - the only people who need to know you are a lawyer already know.

+1 to the "'Attorney' is transparently pretentious" crowd.

A message to those 'lawyers' or 'attorneys' posting about the use of 'esquire':

You are a douche. Accept it. And I don't say that in a derogatory way.

You have posted on a law related blog. So have I.

TTT? T14? T1? V14? Do you know what any of these terms mean? If the answer is yes, you are a douche.

Now, this is meant in a derogatory way...

Calling a fellow lawyer (yes, the correct use of the term) a douche for using 'esquire' in any manner makes you an extreme douche, and you are the reason why lawyers (again, the correct use of the term) are generally despised by the public at large.

Congrats, highly acclaimed douche.

"North American black-necked stilt" (you'll need to do some research to get that one)...

I prefer consigliere, but counseller works as well.

Calling yourself "esq." if you're practicing is, I agree, a db act. Might as well take a marker and write "Jerk" on your forehead.

But, people working for corporations, especially if they're toiling someplace other than the legal department, can be excused for putting the esq. in their signature block. To remind management that they're waiting to be promoted out of contract support. And to remind the rubberstampers in legal making twice the salary that, but for the grace of god, so may they also go after the next downsizing.

Both are somewhat interchangeable but should only be used to describe someone who is admitted to the bar (or who was at some time a member of the bar, such as "retired lawyer" or "disbarred lawyer"). Attorney is a bit more formal or pretensious, depending on the situation; I prefer using lawyer in casual conversation. If a term must be used as a greeting or verbal honorific, counsellor is best. Esquire or "Esq." should only be used in addressing letters or in formal written references to other lawyers, such as in certificates of service.

Someone who graduated law school but is not licensed to practice is not a lawyer but a J.D.

i reserve the label of "lawyer" for those who actually step foot into courtrooms and try cases. i think that this is what most non-lawyers imagine when they hear the word (you know...the exciting, perry mason, johnnie cochrane, "you can't handle the truth", type stuff). i reserve the label "attorney" for folks like me who push big piles of paper at biglaw (of course, exciting in its own right....right?)

To 1:00, 1:07, 1:25, and all the other "esquire" haters:

I remind you of Bill S. Preston, Esquire and his associate, Ted "Theodore" Logan.

1:59 - how does saying you have a girlfriend, or a clerkship for that matter, get you laid?!

I was taught that you are only an attorney when you are representing someone, otherwise you are a lawyer.

The fact that you have a JD does not make you a "lawyer," and it would be unethical to claim to be one. You are only a lawyer/attorney if you are admitted to a state bar. Note: this is why your firm website does not list you among their lawyers.

If, in the few months between starting at a firm and being admitted to the bar, someone asks you what you do, just tell them the truth: you are a recent law school graduate, awaiting your bar results. If you're cool, this will still sound impressive. If you're a moron, they will still think you’re a moron.

3:53 - I know chicks that take it up the ass, and they aren't homosexual!
WOOT!

btw - does using the work "chicks" make me a misogynistic lawyer or just an a-hole? ;-)

Is it laid-off lawyer, or laid-off attorney? Separated lawyer, or separated attorney? You'll all figure it out over the summer

6:05--Will you marry me? (Assuming you are a dude.)

6:23--Why, do you to try it out? The theory is that women are competitive prestige-whores. But I've never seen it work. Of course, my gfs aren't dumb, and are mostly married.

6:49--It suggests you are into bestiality, actually.

I'm a public defender. When someone asks what I do, instead of saying "I'm an attorney" or "I'm a lawyer", I say "I help put dangerous criminals back on the street." It really confuses the liberals.

Others have pointed this out, but it bears repeating: "attorney" is grammatically incorrect when you are talking about yourself. We are lawyers. We also may be attorneys for other people, but that's not our profession.

My Chicago firm strictly (and correctly) refers to lawyers as lawyers.

The term "lawyer" is a general reference to one's profession. E.g., "I am a lawyer."

The term "attorney" is a specific reference to one's relationship to his or her client. E.g., "I am Mr. Smith's attorney."

The last comment wins the thread. We're done here.

My guess is that the reason that person was told that "attorney" is associated with ambulance chasers is because the average person uses "lawyer" to refer to lawyers, and likely usually only hears "attorney" on TV commercials for lawyers (which often end with "X, Attorney at Law").

Hey, haven't read the comments, so this may have already been mentioned. But in many other common law countries- there is a distinction between the two terms, which I think is at least hinted at in the definition. Lawyers have graduated law school, attorneys are permitted to practice law (finished law school/done pupillage/passed the bar, etc.).

Because that distinction isn't so well-known in the US, I bet a non-licensed graduate of law school referring to herself as a lawyer would be frowned upon as misleading by the ABA. But there you go. Technically, I do think they mean different things. And it makes sense that two different situations should get two different words.

I love this blog. Comments like these remind me of why I am a lawyer; because I'm so anal ;)

I also love David, and want to be just like him when I grow up (except I'm a girl).

Lawyer is less pretentious than "attorney," so I use "lawyer" 99% of the time, ESPECIALLY in social settings.

Scriviner.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:

In Canada, "attorney" is not used. Instead "barrister" and "solicitor" are used. (I guess that England is the same way.) But "lawyer" can be used in a less-technical sense for a barrister or solicitor.

So, being a Canadian and also a J.D. and member of an American Bar, I've always thought that "lawyer" is the more general term for an attorney, solicitor, or barrister, and that "attorney" is a more specific designation for someone who is an "American lawyer", ie, someone who is a member of an American Bar.

I prefer "attorney" if only because you hear "lawyer" jokes, not "attorney" jokes.

this is ridiculous. i can't believe people who have graduated from law school but are not yet admitted to the bar consider themselves 'lawyers'. you are not authorized to practice law until you are admitted to a bar; and you are not a lawyer until you are admitted to a bar. its that simple.

I'm sorry - I know this is an old topic but I was motivated when ATL chose to highlight three comments from this post, all of which (childishly) discussed how much better 'attorney' sounds.

We are lawyers. Lawyers. If you aren't comfortable with that title, then you shouldn't have entered the profession. This is what I do - and I'm proud of it. And I believe in it. Attorney is utterly sanatized and bland - a mock title bordering on a euphemism.

If you find yourself feeling squeamish over describing yourself as a lawyer, perhaps you need to reevaluate your life decisions - there's always night school.

Personally, again, I'm proud to be a lawyer. My hope (and expectation) is that (skilled) lawyers will continue to experience a social redemption in the eyes of the mass public. However, whether we do or we don't, we still by and large run the world!

Lawyer is anyone who is trained in the law (i.e., a person with a JD).

Attorney is someone who represents another (i.e., a person who practices law).

I agree with Comment 25.