Speaking as a law student, I think it'd be good to actually have the programs capped at 8 weeks. That's still a pretty good chunk of change but then you still get a month during the summer to enjoy your last moments of freedom before 80 hour weeks come crashing down on you.

Lat,

I am surprised at the level of hate and racist innuendo on your sister blog http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/ Will you please stand up and let the world know that Nigerian doc reviewers work hard and demand respect.

11:41 - That is not a "sister blog" to ATL.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page, where you will see links to ATL's actual sister sites:

http://dealbreaker.com/

http://fashionista.com/

lat: very nice article.

mr. smith

Ten weeks is perfect. Not too short, not too long - just right.

That's what she said

The Sonnenschein partner quoted in Lat's article makes a good point--the last couple of weeks of a summer associateship are often kind of a bust, given that everyone seems to go on vacation in August. Fewer associates to give you work; fewer associates to take you out to lunch. I ended up spending all day just surfing the net, and eating on my own dime. That's what law school is for! (Of course, the $ was nice...)

11:40

As a graduating 3L, I can say that as for a month off for freedom, that's what 3L year is for. And the absolutely last pure moments of freedom is the month off after the Bar.

Well, nobody would ever accuse law firms of being efficient organizations. Eliminating summer programs might work for smaller midsize and regional shops. And I've seen some of these firms build some top notch practices exclusively through lateral recruitment. But the big boys just chew through bodies too fast to rely soley on lateral recruiting. No choice but to throw the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

It's not right that in a market where good associates are being kicked to the curb for economic reasons we're throwing buckets of money at a bunch of kids who don't know anything and just teaching them how to be (more) entitled. Shorten the summer and pay them a salary that has some correlation to what they're worth - they are mere interns.

I thought ATL was on our side. The open budgets and free lunches are a perk to associates too.

Hello, my name Roger Lou and I apply to work at number ones firms in U.S. of A. Wachtell, Sutherland, Bingham McCrotchen and Paul Hasting. These greatest firms have 10 week program and that is way Roger think it right because I send money to motherland China to wife and one child and also retain money to seek America bride for citizenship. I got first year writing award at America's University (Washington College of Law) (best in U.S. of A.) and do not pay much moneys to school anyway.

With Respect.

诶比西

in my opinion biglaw summer programs only help create the callous, spoiled, overly-entitled, unrealistic brats that infest the comment boards of ATL name-calling everything perceived as being beneath them as TTT.

the legal industry needs to wake up.

ps i totally agree with 12:22

As an incoming law student, it's those bloated summer I'm partially looking forward to. Especially with close to six figures in debt, I'm counting on that high pay to help cover the costs of my 3L year.

If I wanted conservative recruiting methods, moderate hours, and good (but not great) pay, I would have stayed working in engineering.

the Chuck Norris of Legal Gossip?

The main benefits to summer programs are a) the money and b) getting to lurk around the firm, hear the gossip, and try to figure out if you would want to work there. The second can be accomplished in 4-6 weeks. After that you're just sitting around getting fat on lunches and doing stupid "summer" assignments that no client will ever see. Summers should be 4-6 weeks so you can check out multiple firms if you want or take longer vacations if you want.

Eliminating or substantially trimming the size of summer programs would be a mistake. Most successful businesses need homegrown talent and some good hires of experienced people.
The solution is to offer lower salaries and fewer perks to save costs. What is the point of paying someone as much as a first year when they have not yet graduated or passed the bar? Personally, having never made any significant money in my life before summering, I can say that I would not have been offended by less pay if it was competitive with other comparable firms. But competition is how the summer programs got so extravagant in the first place, so who knows.

When I run a summer program some day, I am going to give all the summers a choice: you can have the usual experience, with the free lunches, the three-times-a-week happy hours, the cruises and weekend parties, the whole show. Or, we will pay you an extra $1,000 a week and you can pay for your own lunches and drinks. I will recruit better than Wachtel.

Nooooooooooooo! Summers at BigLaw is the ultimate 2L dream!

Making a general observation that there are a number of Nigerian contract attorneys who tend to scam the system is not racist. Unless, ALL Nigerian contract attorneys were painted that way, I don't see a problem.

The summer associates who think everything is beneath them were probably like that before they even decided to come to law school - insufferable douchebags, I know, but its not the cushiness of the gig that makes them suck.
12:49 makes an overlooked point: law School tuition is fucking EXPENSIVE. I take out 55k per year in loans here at CLS (45k of which goes to tuition + fees). Luckily, I have no undergrad debt. The financial aid office suggests that the average student take out 64k per year in loans. In sum, you misers need to talk to school adminstrations before cutting pay.

1:06 - not if you can't spell it.

1:04 - What do bloated and useless summer programs do that aids in hiring what will become good homegrown talent? There is virtually no actual skill assessment.

If summer programs required summers to actually work in circumstances resembling the reality of practice, with the understanding that poor workers would not be offered, they might serve some useful purpose in determining who had what it took.

American BigLaw is the only institution in the world that is so haphazard about finding new employees. Investment banks and major corporations will grill you and will make you take personality and IQ tests. British law firms follow a similar approach. *We* pamper individuals who have little, if any, prior work experience (after hiring them based on 1 year worth of grades) during what is almost certainly their only "Biglaw" work experience prior to their starting as associates, and then get surprised and irritated when most of them (a) don't know what they are doing and/or (b) are horrified at the workload and can't hack it and/or (c) have horrible, entitled attitudes.

If used properly, a summer program can be a great way to weed out the insufferable douchebags. Just depends on what firm you are at , what kind of people they want to hire, and how willing the firm is to stick to its values.

"Speaking as a law student, I think it'd be good to actually have the programs capped at 8 weeks. That's still a pretty good chunk of change but then you still get a month during the summer to enjoy your last moments of freedom before 80 hour weeks come crashing down on you."

Are you kidding me? Typically, there is about 16 weeks from the last day of finals until the first day of classes. Yeah, who needs an extra $12k or so?

Yes, lots of firms could cut back on summer program pay and weeks. Of course, no one with the option of earning 10k more spending the summer at another firm would ever choose them, but they could do it.

Have you heard that Roger Lou, an American University 2L, died of herpes?

1:17 is right. 45k+ for tuition and 20k+ for living expenses all borrowed? per YEAR? I need to pay that back somehow

No, Roger died of SARS. It was on law.com today.

what is a gibbons?

what is a gibbons?

I would've been annoyed b/c the money is great as a summer associate. That said, I had so many classmates who couldn't get near BIGLAW that I would've kept those complaints to myself.

The thing that sucks is it's probably too late to get a month-long or six-week legal gig. There's plenty of people who'd rather have the money than the time.

The price to pay for 10+ week summer programs is small compared to the return on investment a firm gets from TLT.

Any firm that cuts the summer program to less than 10 weeks will take a huge recruiting hit.

1:26 -- 1:04 here. We are in agreement that law firms recruit in an inefficient manner, but I guess I was unclear.
I don't necessarily believe summer programs serve as a good gauge of the talent of the particular SAs. The broader point was that recruiting inexperienced people is not unique to law firms. In fact, almost every sizable business does it. Otherwise, no one would ever get hired. Also, I claim no detailed knowledge about investment banking recruiting, but I have an investment banker friend that participated in a summer program similar to that run by law firms between her junior and senior years of college. I believe those programs are far more cost-effective than the law programs if for no other reason than that the base salary of first year analysts is lower than it is for biglaw associates.

1:40

I heard he died of compications resulting from a miscarriage

As a summer starting next week, I have felt guilt-stricken since I received my first offer over how much I'd be paid for how little I'd be doing. There is really nothing we can do about it, since BigLaw seems so intent to run itself into the ground for the sake of competition.

1:26

It always amazes me that firms make summers do as little as possible. If a summer shys away from a heavy workload and goes elsewhere after getting an offer, the firm just saved itself the headache of having to nudge that person out later on. I say find out who really has the stones to survive. Firms are too concerned about full time offer "yields".

Ha. I love that there are rising summers here who think they are really going to use much money from their 2L summer to pay back loans. Right. Let's talk at the end of the summer and see how much is left.

Summers are as entitled as partners are greedy. It's a wash.

I'm a Canadian law student who summered in the US last year, and I thought I'd mention a couple of things:

1) in Canada, the money is way less - top firm pays $1700/week , average Biglaw firm in Toronto (other cities are significantly lower) pays $1400/week. However, student debt and expenses are much, much lower in Canada. The most expensive school charges $18k in tuition, most of the others charge $12k or even less. That's a LOT less student debt.

2) There is WAY less emphasis on 'having a good time on the firm dime' than in the US firms. In fact, many of my friends told me they actually had to do Work - like a lot of late days, sometimes doing interesting stuff, sometimes doing boring stuff. Way fewer summer-student extravaganzas.

Personally, I think #2 is the key. For most of us with a lot of law school debt, the money we make during our 2L summer is super important. That said, I think it's totally fair we work for that money. Yeah, due diligence work is boring, but that's part of the job. So are lots of other things that first and second year associates get stuck with that isn't always so sexy. The fact is, people going to big-name law schools and who want biglaw jobs understand that biglaw work is not always fun, sexy, intellectually-stimulating good times.

Law students don't need the 2L summer to relax, they have all of the 3L to do that.

2:25, you could always give the money back. To show your gratitude, also make sure to call all the associates "your majesty" and offer to pick up their drycleaning.

Some firms work their summer associates more that others.
Fact is, by and large, the summer associates don't help the firm in any real way. If they can do real work, often it's work that a junior associate or paralegal could have done in a fraction of the time. Much or all of the time can't or isn't billed to clients. (Case in point, I forgot to turn in time sheets for several weeks as a summer associate. No one ever asked me for them or even noticed. I got my offer and worked at that firm for years.)
However, summers are great for public service projects so that firms can report greater public service commitments.

Summer associates are virtually useless in corporate work. Unless it is a small research project, they have no drafting skills (law school hasn't taught them anything) and they can't get sucked into anything lengthy or be expected to turn documents on short timelines.

Though I was a summer associate at two different firms and enjoyed it, it really is just a game. Firms pay an option on associates to give them a leg up on hiring them. If the summer turns out to be a real jerk or idiot, they find out sooner, and cut them loose.

i ask again, what is a gibbons?

A shorter summer would benefit everyone. It is too long to be on your best behavior, it cuts too close to journal responsibilities and maybe a needed week or two to relax.

Someone please explain Roger Lou to me.

Some things you might not have thought about:

- Clients don't want to pay for summers and first year time. So recruiting through a summer program is very expensive and there is little upside until 2nd or 3rd year. Thus, laterals really are more attractive in many cases.

- If some firms cut to 6 or 8 weeks, others will follow just like they do with compensation. Indeed, many would be relieved to do so.

- You can talk about avoiding firms that cut their programs back, but the fact will remain that there is not an endless list of biglaw fims and there will not be an endless supply of summer slots at firms sticking with a 10 or 12 week program. So firms might lose access to some talent, but there will be plenty of other students happy to have any job versus no job.

- The two no-offers at my office last summer were from Duke and Harvard. Firms know that talent exists in the ranks of many other law schools and crap comes out of top schools. They don't fill a summer class with all Harvard, Yale and Stanford now and they will not die if they have to hire top students from other schools.

- The firms most apt to stick with longer programs are the big offices of big firms. So if you want to be at CWT, S&S, Skadden when you graduate, take the extra weeks during the summer. But you will pay for those few weeks in spades when you are an associate grunt working long hours and being abused.

Harvey's a c#*ksucker

Plenty of 2Ls or part-time 3Ls are far from "kids." It's not uncommon for people to gain a great deal of work experience before attending law school, and, while less common, it's not unheard of that their experience is directly applicable.