Why doesn't a firm just offer 4k a week and do away with the perks and the parties? They'd save money and still hold the title of highest paying summer program. I suspect current associates might change their tunes if their firms did this - no more free lunch for summers means no more free lunch for you, third year associate.

10:34--so what you are saying is that a summer associates pay should be higher than a third year associate---now that makes a lot of sense(NOT!)

10:37 - I'm saying that their spending more than that on the kid anyway. Why not distinguish yourself from the crowd and still save money in the process? I think the ship has already sailed on the concern of paying them too much. Also, law school debt IS astronomical. Summer pay isn't so much compensation for work the summer associate is doing; it's more a statement, "Your investment was worth it, and we're glad you made it. Now come work for us."
-10:34

Justin, I LOVE your use of LOLcats. I will respond to any survey with an appropriate LOLcat in the post.

The furniture one was great. This one is even better.

LOL.

The perks are important. Lunches and events are how you meet and get to know the associates and partners at the firm. Anyone who has ever lateraled can tell you how hard it is to meet the people around you when all you do is work (and forget about meeting anyone in another practice group). I don't know if it's a good investment, but it at least brightens the miserable halls of the firm for a couple weeks a year. All the lawyers pretends that working at a law firm is really like what we hoped it would be when we were law students. It's nice.

Agree with the slimmer summer experience comments. Summers take away billable work from associates who work at firms where hours count. It's also unneccessary at the high-end firms. If a summer is too stupid to accept an offer from Latham or Skadden because a V100-150 firm throws better summer parties then they're too immature to be handling work for high-end clients anyway.

Agree with 11:15. As an Associate, I don't want to be obligated to take summers to lunches, and I don't care about free lunches myself.

What I do want is to be left the hell alone during those daytime hours so that I can do the work I am being paid to do, which will allow me to leave two hours earlier than I otherwise would each day.

Summers are a hassle. They all want to go to lunch for two hours each day, and then when they go to happy hour or whatever event each night at 6:00, the Associates get to stay in their offices billing the time that the summers stole from them earlier in the day.

Worse yet, the law firms themselves perpetuate this ridiculous cycle. Firms are so petrified that their recruiting will be hurt if they were to cut out these perks. But, that is doubtful. What is going to happen? A firm's offer will be turned-down by a NYC grad who felt snubbed? Big deal! Go over to Columbia and get an equally qualified student to take the offer.

11:15 - Isn't it equally as immature for a summer to accept an offer from Latham or Skadden compared to a firm where they may fit in/work better? Isn't that the whole point of the lunches and parties is to figure out if you actually want to work with these people? I don't think it's immature at all for a summer to make a decision based on these experiences. In fact, it's probably more mature to make a decision based on these intangibles instead of only on the name-power of Skadden or Latham.

Of course, the logic of paying SA's what they're worth goes right up the associate ladder -- let's pay first-years, second-years, etc., what they're worth too, eh?

I'm not sure why there's this hate for "entitled" SA's. We're not repeat players; firms are. We didn't choose a business model so obsessed with prestige that salaries have inflated to the point where they now stand. We would love to have less loan debt than we do and so be able to accept lower salaries, but firms have made it clear that our prospects of getting hired out of any but the most expensive law schools are slim. We may flock to firms that offer the highest salaries, bonuses, and perks, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that firms all give us the same B.S. line when we're interviewing, so we have no other measure to guide us when choosing which offer to accept.

I would be totally fine with a more reserved summer program, less-than-market pay, and reasonable hours with ample time to live my life, and I would be totally fine with going to a cheaper school with a good placement rate, so that I could afford to live on a smaller salary in an area where the cost of living is fairly low. Unfortunately, this is just not an option ANYWHERE in the U.S., and that really isn't my fault.

So it is law firms' fault where you chose to go to law school? Now that is a new one.

12:10, that's not what I (11:56) am saying at all. I'm saying that the realities of the legal market give prospectives basically two choices. We can go to a cheap school with poor career prospects and get a job that doesn't pay us much more than what we could've been making without a law degree, or we can go to an expensive school with good career prospects and shoot for market. The only other option -- cheap school landing a market-paying job -- is simply not available to a majority of prospectives and involves a significant degree of risk.

These options are the consequence of law firm behavior. By not recruiting as deeply into the classes of lower-ranked schools, they ensure that their associate classes will have gobs of debt and will pass up more-desirable but less-lucrative positions in order to ensure their own financial security. If they changed their behavior, I'm sure we'd see very quickly students opting for cheaper schools in alternative markets because going to such schools would become less of a crapshoot.

12:26 - a student could also go to a cheap but quality state school (e.g. University of Texas).

It's interesting that in the current market, most summers aren't going to have any options besides taking the offer. Most firms don't allow a summer to split. What are they going to do, interview as a 3L during on campus interviews? Even clerks are having a harder time landing jobs this year. Some of the best students will probably be able to jump firms but most will probably need to take their offer from the summer and be happy -- no matter how many parties the firm threw or how big the lunch budget was.

Second 10:45. ATL to more LOLcats!

***This survey needs a geographic option. $30 in NYC is cheap as shit, but it's market (right?) in SV.***

12:26 is correct, and schools like the University of Texas (i.e. a nice balance between prestige and affordability) are few and far between.

The fact is that most people who want to go to a top law school are going to have somewhere around 200k or more of debt by the time they leave. The ones who end up going to UT, or other quality state schools, will end up far below that number (hopefully), but, again, those individuals are few and far between.

Agree with 1239 ... City will make a difference ... I'm guessing $35 in DC is pretty good but may be low in NYC and SF.

11:15, by the time you're summering there it's too late whether you like those people or not. In this economy, unless you're getting a clerkship and then going to go to another firm, you're going to wind up at the firm you're summering at.

Agree with 1239 ... City will make a difference ... I'm guessing $35 in DC is pretty good but may be low in NYC and SF.

12:35 -- out of state tuition for all of the top publics are on the order of around $40K, which is comparable to any of the top privates. In-state you can get: $24K at UT, $26K at Boalt, $36K at UVA, and $41K at UM (UM out-of-state is around $44K).

That's "cheaper," but it's still significant, especially when you add in fees and living expenses. Students graduating from those schools without having received significant financial aid are still very much on a financial tether. After three years on loans, even at UT, one is likely going to want to secure at least a step or two below market.

Agreed. The best way to go is to go to a top rated public school, like UVA, U. of Connecticut or U. Texas.

Just want to point out that just a couple years ago you could go to UT for around 10-15K/year. Not sure about the other schools. Things are getting more expensive...

Also, I would agree that summers probably won't have a lot of options this year other than taking the offer (and hoping they get one)

1:10 - U of Connecticut troll

The survey is terible. First- the top firms all have lunch budgets over $50-- and I'd like to know exactly what. Don't make 50+ the top category. And I'm guessing a huge percent of associates will go out to summer lunches more than never and less than once a week. Bad survey options.

I personally don't care for the very busy social schedule of most summer programs. It's extraordinaily incongruous with actual firm life for lawyers, and gives summers the idea that they're so special that partners need to wine and dine them, literally dozens of times over the summer, in order to get them to accept a job that will pay them a large salary to do a job for which they have no experience.

It's nice to have them around because they're usually enthusiastic and fun, and they demonstrate the continuing health and viable future of the firm. I even don't mind giving them a real salary (they'll earn it and then some in the coming years), but I think their experience should approximate working at the firm much more closely than it actually does.

what the hell is up with associates trashing summer pay and perks, when they gladly accepted the benefits when they summered. pay the $$ back or shut up.

2:07 - it's not the pay so much for most (pardon me if I'm misunderstanding), but more the total time-suck that is summer programs. God forbid that you're one of the "nice," approachable, normal associates in a sea of weirdos and pervs, and summers eat up an hour or two of your day stopping by with work and personal questions, just to chat, etc. That on top of 2-hour lunches, cocktail parties, weekend events, and, you know, this work stuff they actually pay me to do and seeing my real friends who aren't lawyers and aren't in the same boat and all of the other articles, speeches, client development, etc. bullshit...summers are more fun when you're a summer associate.

2:17 pretty much nailed the typical associate's point of view. I don't mind socializing some. And I don't mind talking things over for few minutes or so at the office. But, for the most part, I want to spend whatever free time I have with my non-law peeps. Summers, keep this in mind when an associate is taking extra time to help you with whatever your problem is. Feel free to waste partner time all you want though.

I echo 2:17
The firm development of socializing with summers is not benefit to me. I'm a good midyear, soon to bounce to in house from a V20 firm this year or next. I don't care about the 2009 or 2010 or whatever class at my shop. It doesn't affect me. And as nice as 10% of the summers are, none are as important to me as the friends I've managed to make time for while slaving away the last few years. I don't want to spend 25 minutes talking about what I do, or if Partner XYZ is cooler thatn Partner ABC, or if on day 2 I think you'll get an offer.
Even taking you to lunch is not free. I make 250 a year. I can buy my own food at a 3 star michi restarant (well, once in a while.) And I'd rather have that meal with my wife, not 10 kids who can't tell the difference between pinot noir and pinot blanc. And I don't want to be at the office 2 hours later because of it. And you're an idiot if you think the miles for paying for it makes up this time sinkhole.

Summers: Kiss up to partners. Shut up. Do work when given. Wear a clean suit. Don't get sloppy drunk. Don't annoy associates. And I don't give a damn that you went to my law school too.

definitely much more fun as a summer associate. hell, there's nothing better in the law than being a summer associate. if i could go back, i'd got get a jd/mba at a top school and get three summers worth of being a summer associate.

but as an associate, you want to go home at a reasonable time, not stay till a cab ride home because of a summer lunch.

"what the hell is up with associates trashing summer pay and perks, when they gladly accepted the benefits when they summered. pay the $$ back or shut up."

I didn't summer at the place I work, and neither did a lot of people at most firms. Regardless, I don't begrudge summers the salary or the lunches or some fun events, I just think it's a little silly that they have to treated like children and hidden from the sordid truth that lawyers in big firms work really hard to make a ton of money. Give them real work with real challenges and expect something from them.

If taking summers out to lunch sucks then why do some associates do it so much? At my firm there was one associate (mid-level) who took summers out nearly every day. Do they just like the food, or can you bill that time as "recruiting," or do partners like it when you're popular with summers, even if it cuts into your overall billable hours?

NY based firms may have higher lunch budgets in DC. The NY based firms I worked for was $50. Even in DC, a summer can't do an app, entree, dessert and beverage for $35 in a nice restaurant without pushing the $35 budget. And since all of these nice ATL posters keep telling to order all 3 the associates get to cover it.

3:43, that associate may either have been (a) not busy and so had the time to do lunches plus whatever work they had, or (b) not cared about their billables. Plenty of associates who either don't want to or know they aren't making partner or are actively job-seeking elsewhere highly utilize the summer program.

All the whining about having to stay two extra hours is ridiculous. If you're busy, don't go to lunch for two hours. Unless you're an appointed "mentor", it's not like some partner is calling you up saying you have to take out a bunch of summers.

Take out the summers when you have time, like after a deal closes or a case settles. You know, the days you surf the web all day and only bill 3 hours? Or take them out when your practice group is slow. A few years ago the bankruptcy associates took out summers all the time. This year it's corporate's turn.

I went to UT with minimal scholarships
and owe 80k. That isn't low enough for me to want a lower paying job but I could afford to take one probably.

Law firms love associates saddled with debt BTW. I had an partner say to me that he'd never hire a assocaite with a trust fund. If you could just walk away without the debt, most would.

3:43, that associate may either have been (a) not busy and so had the time to do lunches plus whatever work they had, or (b) not cared about their billables. Plenty of associates who either don't want to or know they aren't making partner or are actively job-seeking elsewhere highly utilize the summer program.

3:43, that associate may either have been (a) not busy and so had the time to do lunches plus whatever work they had, or (b) not cared about their billables. Plenty of associates who either don't want to or know they aren't making partner or are actively job-seeking elsewhere highly utilize the summer program.

3:54, you must work at a large office. Come to SV where most offices have 20-60 lawyers (or any office of similar size in any market), at least half of whom are either too senior to be taking 22-year-olds out to lunch every day, don't like to go out to lunch, or are in the group of weirdos that every firm keeps far away from summers and interviewees. Anyway, divide 20-60 by 2 (to eliminate the weirdos or people who don't want to go, etc.), and then by the number of summers, and then apply whatever the firm's ratio is for summers to associates at lunch (1:1, 1:2, or whatever--it varies), and then you'll understand. We're not all in offices with 300 lawyers, 20 summers, and a 50-lawyer corporate department full of juniors hired in 2005 who are billing 30 hours/month now.

3:43(1) --
To add to what 3:50 said a few times, yes, typically we can bill this time to a recruiting or summer associate number. At both firms where I've worked, it doesn't mean a damn, though (at least for juniors, it might start to matter--albeit slightly--when partnership decisions are made, though there are certainly other more important things). It's "below the line" time.

3:50 did a good job of explaining why we go, as did 5:20 (at least in my office).

3:27 -
"And I don't give a damn that you went to my law school too." Amen, brother.

3:54, Partners do bug associates to go to lunch. We don't get to bill the time and it makes us have to stay late. Summers are not that interesting, I hate all the attempts to impress and would rather not have to deal with any of you. I get so sick of asking about how things are going, etc. It is a real pain and I wish firms got rid of the program or at least shorten/shrunk them so that the pain lasted for less time.

latham DC has a strict $25 per person limit including tax and tip. and it is totally workable: i've already gone on a coupel of lunches this summer and no one went over the limit. lunches are for meeting summers and getting to know them and are supposed to be the same kind of lunch you would get every day, but the firm picks up the tab. i do not know very many attorneys who drop more than 25 on their lunches on a daily basis.

wow, i didn't realize that latham was so cheap

Honestly, SAs need to shut the fuck up. They're getting paid several grand per week to take a several month 'cruise' through a fictional legal land filled with parties, bars, dinners, outings, sports, locker room gossip, etc. (+ a few hours of work per week)

I have NO sympathy. They'll never again have it so good ... or at least, not within the first 10 years of their legal careers.

So seriously ... smallest violin in the world is playing right here and now. Listen to it. Listen to that small violin.

I really don't know why people are being so harsh on summers. I really don't give a damn about the expensive lunches (my dc firm has a $50 limit) or that I got a blackberry, or that we have so many events. It's a burden on me as well. I just want exciting work, experience, and to build a network, yet have to go through the motions myself in order to get the offer. This whole phenomenon is created by so many factors, yet disparaging the summers isn't exactly fair.

And I should mention that at my firm there are associates trolling the hallways everyday looking for summers to take to lunch, and openly admitting that they want the free meal. The other day 4 asked if I had plans. I'd rather just impress those who matter, do good work, and go home.