The Incredible Shrinking Summer Program?
Summer associates will be starting up at law firms any day now. So what's it like to be a summer associate during a recession challenging economic times? That's the subject of our column in this week's New York Observer.
Some time ago, we solicited your input:
When it comes to summer programs, is Biglaw cutting back? Will Skadden Prom be moved from Rockefeller Center to Dave & Buster's? Will farewell dinners at Per Se or Citronelle be replaced by brown-bag lunches in the firm cafeteria?
Probably not. Considering how awful the economy is, Biglaw isn't making as many changes as one might expect to summer programs. Firms don't seem to be revoking perks or scaling back on the lavishness of events. As law-firm consultant James Jones of Hildebrandt told Ashby Jones of the Wall Street Journal, large law firms are “tinkering around the edges rather than doing anything really radical.”
So firms aren't overhauling their summer programs -- but they are making some subtle adjustments. Read more in our column, which you can access by clicking here.
Crash Diet for Law Firms: Less Dessert for Summer Associates [New York Observer]
(64) Comments
This just doesn't make sense to me.
How would scaling back on events really affect a firm's bottom line?
I think the associated "popularity loss" would be much worse than saving a few dollars by trimming back summer expenses. After all, isn't the economic downturn from a firm's perspective more about losing billable hours than about cutting costs?
So, is the amount that can be saved by switching a summer venue really worth it???
If billiable hours are down, then costs must go down, or else partners will make less money. Partners making less money means the top partners leave. Then less work, so billiable hours will go down even more. So, costs must go down to stop the cycle.
But realistically, how much could they save (without permanently damaging recruitment)?
Irony: you exhort firms to make changes that will generate alarmist coverage and attention on your own blog, thereby negating the benefit of the changes.
I hope they don't cut back Internet surfing.
Summer associates really enjoy it.
Lat - you should do some digging to find out what firms really spend on summer programs. I've heard at a V100, but middle-sized firm, that it runs north of $120k per recruit, but I'm sure that (improperly) includes allocation of support staff and facilities (which would not disappear if summer programs went away). If that type of figure is accurate, then cutting back on expenses makes real sense.
Biglaw doesn't lavish on the perks for fun or out of nostalgia. They do it so they can recruit *top* talent (i.e. top 10 law school grads). It is a common observation that there are too many law students, implying firms can pick and choose. It just isn't true for the elite school grads. For whatever reason, firms value the pedigree, so they'll jump through hoops for it.
Even a cutback in summer associate benefits won't affect my plan to simultaneously work at two V10 firms (just blocks apart in NYC) this summer. Doubling the reduced perks = I'm still getting out ahead.
12:47 - no major firm in their right mind would eliminate their entire summer program. So you have to look at this from a standpoint of cutbacks. They would not be able to eliminate the full $120K per recruit (assuming that's the right number), but would only be able to eliminate a percentage of that.
I don't think that percentage would be significant in the long run, but I'd like to see some data to really know.
What the basis for this "sooner or later, they will HAVE to cut back" assertion? There's no reason to believe cost-cutting on summer programs is necessary if the economy revs up again next year or two.
Face it, firms are in a highly competitive battle to recruit new associates... most law students at top schools have lots of options and look for anything they can find to differentiate firms. Isn't this obvious?
If firms are hiring 10 percent fewer summer associates and cutting their programs in length (12 weeks to 10 weeks = 17 percent cut), as the column reports, then they can save lots of money --- with less bad publicity than cutting perks would create.
12:48 = TOTAL AND COMPLETE MORON. Summering at two firms is extremely dangerous at this time - if both of firms decide to no-offer some associates (a possibility), guess who they will start with - yeah, the guy/girl who spent only 1/2 summer at their firm.
12:48 = TOTAL AND COMPLETE MORON. Summering at two firms is extremely dangerous at this time - if both of firms decide to no-offer some associates (a possibility), guess who they will start with - yeah, the guy/girl who spent only 1/2 summer at their firm.
I've always seen summer programs as a benefit for the existing attorneys, not just the summers. After all, we get to go to the lavish dinners, the wine tastings, and the golf outings too -- just not as many of them as the summers go to.
The perks get tired after about a week anyway. The evening and weekend events are the worst, especially if you already have friends/family in the city.
12:50 - sure, if they had the foresight to hire fewer summers, good for them. Is saving 17% of... what?... $5 million... spread among 100 or so partners enough to warrant negative attention for being one of the only biglaw firms with a 10 week summer program?
I am impressed that Lat was able to write a whole article and a blog post about "the incredible shrinking summer program," and only cite 2 law firms that have done it. lol.
Way to streeeeeetch it out.
Uh, reading comprehension much, 12:52/53? He said he was simultaneously working at two firms, not splitting. A very dangerous idea, but not for the reason you said.
"Even a cutback in summer associate benefits won't affect my plan to simultaneously work at two V10 firms (just blocks apart in NYC) this summer. Doubling the reduced perks = I'm still getting out ahead."
Although top legal talent is certainly the most valuable commodity for law firms, I strongly disagree that 25 year olds with no experience have to be wined and dined in order to get them to take a job that will pay, all told around 200k a year.
If serious, desirable firms with stable businesses and good opportunity for growth began to change their summer programs to make them more work oriented, they would not have any problems with recruiting.
Although top legal talent is certainly the most valuable commodity for law firms, I strongly disagree that 25 year olds with no experience have to be wined and dined in order to get them to take a job that will pay, all told around 200k a year.
If serious, desirable firms with stable businesses and good opportunity for growth began to change their summer programs to make them more work oriented, they would not have any problems with recruiting.
12:52 = TOTAL AND COMPLETE MORON. He was talking about working at two firms at the same time (and collecting two paychecks), not about working half the summer at each firm. Look up and maybe you'll find the find the joke way up over your head.
12:52/12:53 = TOTAL AND COMPLETE MORON WHO ALSO LACKS READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS.
He did not say he was going to spend half the summer at any firm. Read his post again. He's going to spend a full summer at both firms. Geeze, some people are slow.
Summer programs to Pants Free Fridays!
1:00 - you are dead wrong. Law students focus on the minute differences between seemingly identical firms with seemingly identical practice groups when making decisions about where to apply and where to accept.
The term "top legal talent" always make me laugh.
I would think firms would consider expanding their summer programs to cover up for the lack of even fake work that they have for summer associates to do.
In defense of 12:52/12:53, the simultaneous doubler (12:48) would still be working half the summer at each firm, just half of each day rather than half of the total number of weeks available. In fact, it would probably be less than half each day when taking into account wasted time walking between offices. On the other hand, with staggered start and end dates, he/she might be able to work a full first week at one firm and a full last week at another. Also, how would the lunch schedule work? Would the NY bar be interested in finding out about this simultaneous doubler?
I think 12:48 was saying he is summering at two firms simultaneously, not that he is splitting his summer between 2 firms. You know, by running back and forth between the two offices so it appears he is working at both firms at the same time, drawing 2 paychecks, and hoping for 2 job offers
"Top Legal Talent" = 25 y.o. with no work experience and one year of good grades in survey courses.
Wait, I'm confused. So is 12:48 splitting his summer between 2 firms? I didn't realize V10 firms did that.
Who is excited about all the drama the summer associate season has in store????
Who can't wait to hear about all the stupid stuff these summers do??? hehehe.
I think people are getting trolled. Summering at two adjacent firms has been done before in NYC. The person involved was caught and fired from both, but they got away with it for a while.
It wouldn't be easy to pull off, but I could see how you could get away with it with a pair of very large NYC firms. The biggest burn would be classmates from your school who are certainly going to be working at one or the other of the firms.
Does anyone know (or has heard of) someone actually trying this? I know it's a joke, but with as many crazy people there are in law school I wonder if some bozo has ever tried to double dip.
1:00, a few of the very best firms actually do this, but everyone else apparently thinks they need the perks to compete for the same recruits.
1:00 - Look at Cadwalader and tell me it doesn't make a difference in recruiting. They don't get students with options from the top schools.
12:48 is either joking or stupid. He pretty much outed himself because very few V10 firms are that close together. My vote's for DPW and Simpson. The classes are huge, so he might get away with it for a while, but the firms will soon figure it out. At the very least, his classmates will be jealous that they're only pulling in 3,100 a week while he's pulling in 6,200, and they'll eventually out him.
Sounds like a good PR Hypo:
If said summer is properly screened of and does not recieve any portion of the fees from the conflicted clients, is such a situation ethical, if both firms have knowledge of said "double dipping?" Anyway, since summers "can't practice law," I doubt there would be any real repercussions for the firms unless he actually worked on two directly conflicted clients at the same time.
They better not cut my well-deserved perks. My parents didn't shell out all of this money to Georgetown for me to be treated like some state school scrub.
-P. Bondurant
As if it really matters what caliber of students CWT gets. They do not cultivate partners internally, period, and most of their associates don't last to the point that they would actually need to know things. They want bodies who can work (very) hard.
"Face it, firms are in a highly competitive battle to recruit new associates... most law students at top schools have lots of options and look for anything they can find to differentiate firms. Isn't this obvious?"
That attitude is so six months ago.
so you're saying they want hard bodies? Isn't that discrimination?
Guys at my high school used to double up on firms, get both offers and end up working for public interest all the time, it was no big deal.
Gotta love the "top legal talent" arrogance believing that they are (a) naturally any good at their jobs and (b) are so much better than people who V10 firms won't recruit and "have to go" to places like CWT.
Mommy and Daddy paid for nice prep schools and got you into the right (grade inflated) college to get into the right law school.
2:02 - that's a nice little fiction that you're creating, huh? It discounts the majority of Top 5 students that are merely smarter and harder working than you.
There are some real idiots on this thread--way more than usual.
Fingers are crossed that you're not coming to my firm to f-up the assignments I give you, but for which I still have to give you at least a 4 out of 5 for on the evaluation or you'll tell all your little friends not to take my assignments, and then I'll be stuck with the work while you're sucking down Hendrick's martinis and lobster spring rolls that my billables help pay for. Goddamn this vicious cycle.
I can't believe that I'm being extorted by summer associates.
The fact that Lat can't get over 100 comments on a post about SAs demonstrates how far he has fallen. Maybe he should do a post on how the 'challenging economic times' affects shitty toilet blogs.
The key to working two jobs simultaneously is to change suits in the elevator...
-Michael J. Fox
hey kids, summer with the J.A.G. Corps. You'll get paid to work out!
This might not show up well as a post, but here goes...
Here is data from Nalpdirectory.com on the summer class sizes at the following firms:
Summer class sizes (2Ls only) 2006 2007 2008 % change from 2007-2008
Cadwalader 52 68 47 -30.88%
Cleary 89 98 94 -4.08%
Cravath 101 91 161 76.92%
Davis Polk 117 101 114 12.87%
Debevoise 82 103 67 -34.95%
McKee Nelson 8 10 8 -20.00%
Paul, Weiss 73 79 89 12.66%
PROSKAUER ROSE 51 40 63 57.50%
SCHULTE ROTH 52 45 62 37.78%
SHEARMAN 83 75 134 78.67%
Simpson 132 110 110 0.00%
Skadden 97 153 100 -34.64%
Sullivan 80 105 104 -0.95%
THACHER PROFFITT 32 33 29 -12.12%
Wachtell 19 30 24 -20.00%
Weil 73 139 103 -25.90%
White & Case 66 40 114 185.00%
Willkie Farr 43 66 67 1.52%
Total at these 18 firms' NY offices 1250 1386 1490 7.50%
On average the expected summer class size in 2008 is 7% larger than in 2007. The real outlier that I see is White & Case, which had 40 summers in 2007 and will have 114 in 2008 (185% increase). Cadwalader, Debevoise, and Skadden are expecting summer class sizes that are over 30% smaller than their 2007 summer classes
Thanks for the data 2:24.
Most firms made the decisions re the size of their summer classes back October-November. Things would be very different if they made those decisions today. Look for summer classes to be about 30-40% smaller next year at the V50. Also, of those hired out of the 2008 Summer class, expect at least a few firms to withdraw offers during their 3L year or delay start dates until January 2010 (a la 2001-02).
Times they are a changing.
2:24
Interesting. Thanks for posting.
How is Internet speed at White and Case?
Funny, 2:52. 100 idle associates = a lot of bandwidth being eaten up. I hope that the firm doesn't use VOIP.
"Considering how awful the economy is", geez Lat, you're buying into the liberal media's doom and gloom bent on the economy.
2:57 - "Doom and gloom"? Law firms are laying off associates left and right - and that's not counting what Lat calls "stealth layoffs" (which have not been covered enough in ATL).
Many posters on this thread are acting like this is 2006 or 2007. Let's see how you all feel in the fall when half of you have no offers (or "cold offers", so the firms can tell NALP that they technically gave you an offer).
Even if it doesn't really affect the firm's "bottom line," I think it is also a matter of perception - when you're laying off associates, not hiring laterals/clerks, letting support staff go, not meeting market bonuses for associates, etc., should a firm really be throwing its money around on lavish summer dinners?
And if firms like Cravath or Skadden suddenly stopped throwing lavish parties would summers really not take an offer there? I mean come on people, this is a profession that you're entering, not a frat party, and you'd be absolutely crazy not to choose a prestigious, high paying firm because it didn't throw parties.
Lat - Skadden Prom is going to be a big party on Ellis Island in honor of the 60th anniversary of the fun. From the buzz, it sounds like an upgrade over the Rockefeller Center version.
2:24 - Skadden is expecting 114 summers in NY, not 100. Still a material decrease, obviously, but not a chart-topper.
3:02--I'll take a "cold offer"
nalpdirectory.com says 100 expected at Skadden. Skadden should update the form if they are expecting 114.
Shouldn't you all be studying?
2:02, harmed by the injustices of blind grading and standardized testing? I can help.
1-800-BOO-HOOO
Rumspringa....bwwawawawawawawa
wow that confirms what ive heard- Cravath, White/Case and Shearman WAY over-offered.
my friends going to WC and Shearman in particular are really worried- how can a firm go from 40 to 140 in this economy??
4:22,
Cravath will be fine...they have a bit of a turnover from guys getting mixed up with teenage male prostitutes. The other two firms are shitshows.