Hello, this is Roger Lou, I am 1-L student of America's University (Washington Law College). I am sincerely when I say that drug attrition not a significant problem at my law college. Most student very ethical and committed to improving America social and justice. Drugs not part of equation. This one of many reason me in love with Washington Law Colleges and not school like Hofstra University of Womens.

With Respect.

诶比西

Absolutely. If your grades suck and you're not at a decent school, chances are you are unemployable at all but the most local firms. Different story entirely, of course, if you want to put up your own shingle.

Leave now while you still can.

Why send good time - and money - after bad?

Drop out.

Unless you're really hot, and just in law school to find a rich husband (or wife) - the so-called "MRS" degree.

Get out get out get out get out get out

depends on the end goal, and the reason for going to law school in the first place. and how "not competitive" the grades are.

my first semester grades were right on the 1L mean, and if they hadn't improved substantially in the spring, i hope i would've had the guts to drop out.

I heard the curriculum at Whittier is INTENSE

People in that situation should not walk away from law school...they should run!

Agree with 2:29. If BIG LAW is not your goal in life, you might want to stick it out. Otherwise the year is a total waste.

Being able to call yourself a lawyer, even if you go into another field, is a valuable thing.

if you are thinking of dropping out, you probably should drop out. it means you don't want to be in law school and you really don't want to be a lawyer.
i can't recommend law school to anyone who doesn't want to be a billable hour slave

Threadjack

Can anyone confirm this story over at dealbreaker?

http://dealbreaker.com/2008/05/people_moves_anyone_need_a_law.php

\Threadjack

Ummm, do I count when calculating attrition rates for the University of Arizona?

- Kumari Fulbright

Still waiting to get our 2nd semester grades back... Maybe this is why they're taking so long.

what happened to SEN?

Um, shouldn't the lowest rate schools be ranked in inverse to their USNWR ranking? It seems that it's a greater accomplishment for lower-ranked schools to retain students.

0% attrition rate? Unlikely. People transfer out of those schools that aren't T3-5, and my T5 has put two students on leave for illness/injury. Even people at Yale have health problems, so these stats are probably grain-of-salt worthy.

I hated law school, but it had been my dream to go, so I hung in there after finishing right in the middle of the pack after my first year (thirty-something law school). I graduated at about the same level and lucked into some pretty decent jobs culminating in my current gig at a large firm in a major banking center that's not NY (any guesses where that is?). I've basically hated being a lawyer since day one - hated the jerk-off nerds that populate the field, hated the status obsession, hated the tedious, mind-numbing work, hated the hours, etc. I should have read the tea leaves after my first year and ditched it. And my advice to anyone who didn't finish in at least the top half would be the same. That may be an arbitrary cutting off point, but I feel like if you couldn't make it up into the top half of your class, you probably don't have the love for this kind of thing that's going to keep you happy and hungry years down the road. Just my two cents.

LOL @ WhiTTTier

2:42, you sound like a miserable sort of person. Going to law school and working as a lawyer was/is therefore probably a good move for you because you always have something to bitch and moan bout.

Absolutely drop out. If your not in the top quarter at Vandy you should get out ASAP.

don't go, period.

Attrition rates at crappy schools are high because they try and force people out that they don't think will pass the bar. Also they have grade deflation because they don't want their best students to have high gpa's and then transfer to a marginally better school - say Whittier to Southwestern. More people end up with crappier grades making it more likely some will drop out.

WTF is "Jones School of Law"? Can you get a job from there even if you are EIC of the law review?

Further proof that Al Gore is a moron. He also failed out of two other grad schools. This guy would be pumping gas if his father were not a famous Senator whose name he could milk into public office.

I think I was only about top 60% of my T25 school and I'm in one of the best firms in NYC. And I love it and I get great reviews and great work. There's no GPA cut off point that determines whether you will succeed at BigLaw.

So, these lower-tiered schools take full tuition from all of their students during 1L and then make it extremely unattractive for a certain percentage of the class to stay in law school. Sounds like a racket to me.

"The less-than-shocking lesson from the rankings: students with low grades at lower-ranked schools tend to seek out other opportunities."

Really? Maybe the lesson is that grade-inflation is out of control at some top schools...

3:07 - you're a retard who somehow was very, very lucky. You're the exception that proves the rule - if you're not in the top 50 law schools, DROP THE HELL OUT.

Jones School of Law? I call BS...

I was #1 in my small engine repair school class, but I moved on to bigger and better things. Now I empty portable toilets with a giant vacuum.

3:13 - Keep massaging your ego with the thought that BigLaw is so impossible to break into, only the top 10% from top 10 law schools ever make it. Peruse partner lists on websites. Is everyone from a top 10 law school? Hardly. Even Weil is filled with Brooklyn Law School partners.

Yeah, I didn't get a great SA off the bat, but I broke the ranks within a year and have been very successful ever since. Find something else besides what law school you got into five years ago to help you maintain a sense of pride.

I don't believe the Yale statistic. There are plenty of reasons to quit other than low grades, and I know several YLS 1Ls returning to their PhD programs/I-Banks. The administration probably doesn't report it as attrition because it would hurt their ranking (same with any other school reporting 0.0% attrition). They might come back...but it's not likely.

Can anyone explain to me how this d-bag prof spent only two years in residence at MIT and secured his Ph.D.? (I am assuming he got a year of credit for his law school. But even assuming that, the Ph.D. isn't awarded until after the dissertation is defended.)

I'd rather hire the last student at a T14 than the top student from any other school.

DROP OUT. Even if you have straight A's.

I went to William and Mary and now I am divorced, gay, and strangely attracted to children holding cotton candy.

Stanford (and probably most other schools) is cooking the books. I know a few people who have dropped out after one year in the past few years.

3:28 = worst. troll. ever.

The way law schools lie and manipulate the statistics, there are a number of Deans that deserve to be put in front of their respective bar disciplinary committees. I've heard BU only jumped up in the statistics because any unemployed grads get "hired" by the school's career services office til they can hang their own shingle or whatever it is they fall into.

3:28: Why?

3:28
good thing law firms don't let adolescent children make hiring decisions.

Learn from our mistakes. Grades are arbitrary at most schools, at least to a degree. There are too many schools that are clearly opening just to rake in the cash. If you are below top 50% and anticipate a high financial burden GET OUT and try something else. For those of yo deciding to go...

You can:

1. Go T-14 (I did not)
2. Go 1st Tier to School that gives the most $
3. Go where you get a full ride

NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PAY FULL TUITION AT A NON T-14 SCHOOL! If mommy and daddy can pay $250k for your education invest teh $ now and see what you have in three years. Go work at a firm to see what its like...volunteer.... enjoy life....law school will always be waiting for you! A BigFirm paralegal with 3 yrs exp makes more in NYC than most non Big Law associates...go do that, hell, go to some school at night and try to finagle yourself an assoc position. FOR GODS SAKE DON'T JUST GO IN TO LAW SCHOOL BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO!

3:28's just bitter cause he finished last at G-Town, never made it to BigLaw, but thinks someone owes him something cause even though he was a flunky...he was a G-TOWN flunky!

2:42 -- maybe you find the practice of law frustrating because you're not real sharp. Your story is this: I did relatively poorly in law school but got an ultra-prestigious job in biglaw. I hate my job. Thus, if you are in the bottom half you should drop out.

Do you see the problem in this train of thought?

3:28 - good luck with that.

3:28(2) went to GULC, obviously. That's the only school whose grads attempt to convince everyone that "T14", rather than T10, is the group of elite law schools. News flash-- no one thinks GULC, Northwestern, Duke or Cornell are elite.

GW>GULC

Dearest Mr. 3:28(2),

My deceased husband went to America's University, number ones best in America Washington School of Law. It is better than GUCK or any T14. Roger Lou would want you know this thing.

With Respect.

Mrs. 诶比西

3:49 - Not bad advice. I would add one caveat - consider T2 state schools in good markets, especially before paying full price for a mid-low T1. For instance, NJ large firms pay very well - big ones start you in the $115-145k range, with a number of nationals with small offices paying NY market in Newark and near NY market in Princeton (Patton Boggs, Winston Strawn, etc). If I could go and do it all over again, I'd skip my T1 school for Rutgers $14k or so tuition (which if you can get into a T1 would be way less than that). You can freaking live in Manhattan and commute to Newark easily enough if you really can't live without the "prestige" of a minimum $3k/month apartment.

What the heck is non comepetitive? Despite a lot of effort, I barely made it out of undergrad, let alone law school. But I did and have never regreted it for a second.

If your dream is to be a lawyer, and you know that in your gut, power on. People like me hire PHD's - poor, hungry, and driven people who have a fire and passion. I have never hired giving preference grades or to school.

i think these stats are based only on academic attrition; NALP or someplace has the non-academic stats (something like 2-3 non-academic departures from Y/S yearly)

3:53-- you must be an ATL newbie.

The top comment "stories" on ATL:

1. UPenn State.
2. Roger Lou (who I hear is now dead).
3. GULC is the best law school / T14 is the measure of prestige.
4. "I knew a guy in high school.... it was no big deal."
5. Hofstra is a top 3 NYC law school.
6. Ripping on the new format of ATL.
7. Asking Kash out on dates.

Anyone have any others?

UVA students were miserable people who all complained about not getting into NYU and Widener.

8. TTT
9. Making racist comments.

3:53 - You're a funny (aka USNews's bitch) guy. Make sure to revise that list of yours when the 2010 rankings come out.

4:07- I don't think I'm very funny, but I do know one thing. I didn't go to GULC. Keep on dreaming. Maybe if the ocean swallows California and New England, GULC can creep into the top 10 some day.

UPenn State is better than GULC.

Layoffs at Schulte

"Guys in my high school....it was no big deal."

I don't think frat stud has ever claimed to have known them.

And my vote is for Roger Lou number one, as in number one law school in Asia - HLS.

Arizona number is inaccurate (even if you don't include Kumari Fulbright)

My grades in law school were terrible, but I still landed a job at the most prestigious firm around. I'm pretty sure it's because I'm such an amazing guy. Women want me, men want to be me.

-Ovary Bell

T6 = elite
T7-14 = prestigious
Everything else = TTT

10. GW > GTown
11. GW is a TTT

Dearest Mr. Bell-

My deceased husband would recommend you as super number ones for getting job at Sutherland.

With Respect.

Mrs. 诶比西

10. What does TTT mean?

Let's use some common sense, people. Can we just agree for the sake of ease that T10 is "elite", even if we have to include UPenn or UPenn State or PSP or whatever you want to call it? Everything else is TTT. Especially American University and Hofstra.

TTT means "Totally The Tops"

Who is T6 now? Does that now suddenly include Berkeley? Weren't they ranked #13 or something like that even 5 years ago?

T5 is understandable, but T6 makes no sense.

Of course, T3 is where its at.

Sincerely,

HYS '06

12. [Insert dumbass law student question here]

T6 is HYSCCN - Penn and Berkeley are not, nor will they ever be, T6.

4:29(2)- you should use the real name so people don't get confused... UPenn State (Philly Campus).

Thank you 4:29(2):

I'm glad I have degrees at all six of those schools. But only my HYS degrees are on the walls. My P degree goes up when one of the three is being professionally waxed.

Sincerely,

HYS '06

GW pisses all over GULC. Its embarrassing.

13. asking for bikini pics of Kash

(Kash - take a hint and give us what we want)

14. Asking for speedo pics of Lat.

This job is hard enough for graduates of top 10 schools. Well, at least I was able to pay back my loans and save a few hundred k in the five years I have been practicing.

America's George Washington College of the Law? That's where Roger Lou goes, it's very prestigious.

Totally agree with 3:49.

As 3L about to graduate from a T20, I wish I had seriously considered dropping out after my abysmal first year.

I went to law school to land a big law job. My grades first year were around Top 60% (or more aptly bottom 40%). In retrospect, that basically killed any chance I had of landing a big law job. I did significantly better my second year, and scored a good summer externship at the local federal district court, but even that didn't help me land a big law job my third year. (To be fair only 6 or 7 3Ls scored big law offers this lat year).

I did get offers from some small local firms, but the salaries were the same and in one case less than job offers I had out of undergrad, so I declined them. I'm heading into the bar unemployed and will figure something out afterward.

My advice (YMMV), if you want big and don't have the 1L grades, consider dropping out. At the end of my three years, (assuming I pass the bar) I'll be able to put Esq. at the end of my name, but that's about it.

15. WGWAG

16. (but should be number 1) Saying "First" in the first comment post (even if you are really only the 3rd or 4th comment.

17. Making ridiculous arguments about Bush being a good president.
18. Spreading lies and hate about liberals.
19. Preaching against immigration and affirmative action.

The list of successful people who dropped out of law school is not so informative unless we know which law school they dropped out of.

6:27 - Don't be so pessimistic. There is more than one avenue to be a successful (financially and otherwise) attorney. Start looking to government opportunities (including state government, quit being such an elitist!). Network your ass off. Quit being a narrow minded tool and start thinking outside the box.

If you are good enough to get into a top 20 school, don't bother going to law school right out of undergrad. Get a job and see how you like working. Then, if you are in it for the money, apply to a top 20 business school and don't look back. Other than the after-tax cash compensation, there is nothing to recommend climbing the firm ladder.

I am a tier 2 student in the NYC market, and my grades barely put me into the middle percentile of my class. I took the time before school to be a paralegal for a prominent, non-international firm in the tri-state area. I used my time as a paralegal to network with large firms, and i was able to secure a prominent SA outiside of NYC, but with fairly equivalent compensation. I am comfortable with my lot, and I know full well I will receive an offer without all the jockeying needed for students with no social or business accumen. Networking and planning prior to law school has been vital to my success, and it is a shame that undergrads going directly into law school don't understand what the real world is like. There is a reason that the euphamism, A's teach, and B's work for C's is true. So while all you educated and pretentious Biglaw associates work your ass off, I am comforted by the fact that I have social and networking skills that will allow me to surpass you in the real world. So while my top 60 some odd law school is insufficient for most of you, atleast I know i will be supervising and guiding your pompous egos in the near future.

Great thread, Kash. Any other day this would have hit 150 comments.

10:27 - It was a slow news day, wasn't it?

I went to the University of Pennsylvania State Law School - College Park. I dropped out and reapplied to the UPenn State - Philadelphia Campus. My market value has increased exponentially, despite being at the same parent university.

If you don't love it, get out. If you do crappy, you will not be able to pay back to loans. It will be indentured servitude to your law school debt.

It is Top 3, then Top 10. T6 was made up by Chicago grads. Top 5 was made up by NYU grads.

there is a fake roger lou on this thread and he is really beginning to piss me off. i know the tongue from which the real roger lou speaks, and it isn't the roger lou who has been posting on this thread (see real roger lou speak on the paul clement resigns thread).

with respect, baby!! with respect.
-- "america's university, washington college of law" c/o 2009

Here's the bottom line (from my perspective) - I went to a T5 undergraduate but my GPA sucked (due to boozing, smoking, and sleeping around) so I went to a T20 law school. Most of these people are not nearly (NEARLY) as intelligent as they think their law school validates them as. If you go to a top 30-40 school, and know that you are smarter than most people (I mean really know, not think) you will be fine. Roll the dice, and stop being a pussy. I finished in the top 1% after 1L year and I drank all the time. It is not that hard - trust me. You will make the bank.

If you do not fit this category, and are not going to a to school - do NOT go - unless you are getting a ton of money.

3:55 and 4:46 - sounds like you guys are trying to convince yourselves.

11:47--if you're a girl, you sound pretty hot.

11:47, if you are real (not that much of a stretch) what do you think is the most important thing to think about in law school vis-a-vis grades?

To All Law Students,

Don't listen to these bitter people telling you to drop out if you're not in the top 50% of your class. Everyone knows that all law schools have a mandatory curve and everyone's grade is based on one stupid test. One measley point on an exam can make the difference between top 50 and bottom 50. Hold your chin up and keep plugging.

To all the commenters who are convinced that the 0.0% attrition rates listed above are deliberately manipulative:

Have you ever taken a course in statistics? Or how about 7th grade math (i.e. the probability section)? These schools haven't neccessarily claimed that no one drops out. The degree of accuracy in their statistics merely reflects that among the many students who go there, less than .1% have dropped out, or less than .04%, to be specific. I would guess that most people reading this blog have at least some higher education; I can't fathom how this was missed.

To all the commenters who are convinced that the 0.0% attrition rates listed above are deliberately manipulative:

Have you ever taken a course in statistics? Or how about 7th grade math (i.e. the probability section)? These schools haven't neccessarily claimed that no one drops out. The degree of accuracy in their statistics merely reflects that among the many students who go there, less than .1% have dropped out, or less than .04%, to be specific. I would guess that most people reading this blog have at least some higher education; I can't fathom how this was missed.

3 people in a class dropping out, even at the most conservative rate for a school like Yale, is still 1+% of the class, not less than .1%. Hell, even one person dropping out would be over .3% at most top schools. Get a clue.

Stanford (all schools, not just Law) has always had an extremely liberal policy called "stopping out." Thus you can drop out, but the school sees it as "stopping out" and you are free to return, sans new application, anytime. As a Stanford grad (but not Law), I imagine this is how the Law school massages the stats.

This is extra-true at Stanford at the undergrad level due to all of the international-caliber/pro-caliber athletes. Baseball and football players would go pro and then come back in their off season to finish their degrees.

In other words:

People at my school used to stop out all the time, it was no big deal.

STANFORD ATHLETE STUD

Stanford (all schools, not just Law) has always had an extremely liberal policy called "stopping out." Thus you can drop out, but the school sees it as "stopping out" and you are free to return, sans new application, anytime. As a Stanford grad (but not Law), I imagine this is how the Law school massages the stats.

This is extra-true at Stanford at the undergrad level due to all of the international-caliber/pro-caliber athletes. Baseball and football players would go pro and then come back in their off season to finish their degrees.

In other words:

People at my school used to stop out all the time, it was no big deal.

STANFORD ATHLETE STUD