The Asia Chronicles: Doing Your Due Diligence
Is the Far East a good fit for you?
Our last installment of the Asia Chronicles introduced our readers to the financial advantages of working as a Biglaw associate in Asia. We told you of lower taxes, additional payments in the form of (sweet sweet) COLAs, housing allowances, and other assorted goodies.
Unlike Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory, all of this is real, but some of our readers commented that it all sounded like some kind of marketing ploy, “B-grade Asian job porn,” and otherwise too good to be true. Perhaps we came across as too enthusiastic, or maybe we sound like one big recruiting column. Whatever the case, we really do think Asia is the most exciting place in the world to be right now, and not just because the money’s better (additional advantages to be discussed in the weeks to come).
Still, it’s not for everyone. For any of you considering a move to Asia, here are some questions to consider:
1. Are you willing to spend time away from your family, friends, and familiar places? Flight time from most places in Asia back to North America is at least twelve hours each way (and could be double that if you have to make connections). Add in getting to and from the airport, layovers, and getting over jet lag, and you may be spending four days on each trip just traveling or recovering from it. Not to mention that even economy airfares are well over a thousand bucks and rising, and business class is usually four times that (although arguably worth it for the fifteen-hour flight from Asia to New York). As a busy corporate associate, you will likely only visit home once a year (but at least it’ll be a free trip home). Obviously if you are married and/or have children, the question gets even more complicated.
2. Can you handle frequent travel? Nervous fliers should steer clear of Asia (with the possible exception of Tokyo, where the majority of work is domestic). Lawyers out here commonly travel several times per month to wherever the deals are, from India to the South Pacific. We have seen longtime Asia lawyers with passports as thick as the stack of 1000s in our pockets when we come back from Macau. Though the clients always pay for business class, and Asian airlines, airports and hotels are generally rated the best in the world for service and comfort, some people find travel and time away from home too stressful.
3. Do you have a flexible sleep schedule? American lawyers in Asia are often working with U.S. and European offices of the banks and law / accounting firms on their deals. New York is about twelve hours behind China / Japan, and 10 p.m. Friday conference calls or 4 a.m. closings are not uncommon. Or, given the workload of many Asian offices, you might just be up that late working. Very hot market + small office = lots of billable hours.
Read more, below the fold.
4. Can you handle working in a small office? Make no mistake about it, it takes a certain personality to enjoy working in a small office, either here or back in the U.S. For starters, out in Asia you often get more responsibility earlier in your career. Remember walking into your first callback as a young, impressionable 2L at OCI, and waxing poetic to the hiring partner about the virtues of more client contact and responsibility earlier in your career (let’s be honest — you had no idea what you were talking about)? Welcome to Asia!
Expect to be the first line of defense when the client calls with an issue. Great if you’re a sixth-year; sort of scary if you’re a second. Working in a small office also likely means that there’s no project coordinator to spread out the work. Planned a vacation in mid-July? Oh, wait, you can’t go — your deal’s about to close, and there’s no one else around to cover for you. Sorry! Oh, and if for whatever reason you just don’t happen to get along with someone in the office, good luck avoiding him or her!
5. Do you know which practice areas will be available to you, and do you think you will be happy working in them? The branch offices of U.S. firms in the United States usually specialize in a few limited practice areas, and the satellite offices of U.S. firms in Asia are even more limited in scope. Specialties like litigation, IP, and real estate are all the domain of lawyers qualified to practice law in the local jurisdiction. As a U.S. lawyer in Asia, chances are you will be doing capital markets, M&A/private equity, or project/structured finance. Depending on the firm, your options may even be limited to a single practice area. On the other hand, if your firm does do a variety of work, you probably won’t be restricted to any single group, but will instead be expected to be ready to help with any deal on which you are needed. Make sure you understand what kind of work will be available to you and feel comfortable doing it for two years or more (usually the minimum time that you can spend at a foreign office).
Each of the above can be a positive as well as a negative, depending on your personality. We ACLs enjoy traveling to new places, working strange hours (we’re nocturnal anyway), knowing everyone in our office, and working on many different types of deals in different jurisdictions.
According to Evan Jowers of Kinney Recruiting, “When considering a move to Asia, especially if you are only a junior to mid-level associate and do not have significant personal connection to the region, it is important to understand there are major basic differences from the atmosphere of a major U.S. market office. Whereas many U.S. associates are looking for a high level of responsibility and entrepreneurial atmosphere, some find they are better off in a much more structured environment, where first- and second-year associates do due diligence, for example, and associates at relatively junior levels are asked to turn documents and not be on the front lines so much in front of clients. The training is more consistent in the larger U.S. offices.”
“In the HK /China and Asia markets in general, at the top U.S. firms, junior to mid-level associates have the great benefit of being mentored a lot more one-on-one by a senior partner,” said Evan. “But it can be a fly by the seat of your pants work experience, due to the high level of responsibility given. In many cases, relatively junior associates are flying off alone to meet clients all over Asia, for example. It is also common for relatively junior associates coming from U.S. markets to be asked to retool quite a bit, as each firm has usually only one or two main practice focuses.”
“Sometimes, working for a top U.S. firm’s Asia satellite office can be similar to working for an exciting startup company, albeit one with virtually unlimited financial and other resources of a major international law firm. There is typically a lot of enthusiasm in the office, and teamwork is even more important than in the U.S. markets. Associates can be asked to be involved in marketing and wining and dining clients a lot more than in the U.S. markets. It is a place where the work can be very exciting and fun, but you have nowhere to hide, unlike in a 500 attorney office, if you know what I mean. Personality fit is critical for any new hire in the top U.S. law firms in Asia. An Asia move is not for everyone, unfortunately, but most U.S. associates in Asia I know are very happy, even if they can’t plan their hours as much and don’t know which country they will be in from week to week, especially in Hong Kong offices.”
“For an English-only U.S. associate with no connection to Asia, Hong Kong is probably the best bet, although there are many English-only associates in mainland China and Tokyo, and of course in Singapore,” said Evan. “There is a vibrant international young professional community in Hong Kong, most of whom live in Central or Mid-Levels, and with all the nightlife, restaurants, and intense and exciting work going in within a small area, the atmosphere is very unique. One of my placed associates in Hong Kong told me that she is having so much fun that she feels like she is back in college, working hard but also out having social activity just about every day. And this is someone who lateraled from New York, obviously not a place lacking in nightlife and entertainment. But of course, the social atmosphere in Hong Kong is not something that would be a big plus for everyone, and without some type of outlet to blow off steam from the sometimes erratic working schedule of a smaller office, and lots of work travel, an Asia move can be more difficult.”
For more questions, you know where to find us: asiacorporatelawyers at gmail dot com.
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Kinney Recruiting has made more placements of U.S. associates and partners in Asia than any other firm in the past two years.
[Disclosure: Kinney is the sponsor of this post.]
(51) Comments
Comments
yes! first!
I want to be first!
Interesting column. But soooo long.....
well . . . the lady in the picture looks happy, sign me up.
what's roger lou's take on this piece
throws up and washes self with bleach
Finally a column from the ACL guys that isn't just about obscene BigLaw bonuses and housing perks... even the usual Kinney ad blather isn't as annoying this time.
what about us law firm offices in the middle east? do they have the same policies/benefits as asia? I for one would love to work in dubai, abu dhabi, or quatar etc.
lat...u should maybe do a thread on the topic of us law firm offices in europe, middle east, and latin america?
yet another big recruiting column...thanks evan!
7:36 = terrorist sympathizer
Hey, 7:36, can you help me find quatar on the map? Is that next to Qatar? Is Duoha the capital?
7:36 = Osama Biglawden
each of the "negatives" explained in this lame post is so clearly a minor spin on a positive. Lets see some real content with some real info Lat. Not this "if you HATE lots of money and cute stewardesses, Asia is not for you BS."
Next, Kinney Recruiting/ATL will post on how to answer the "tell me something bad about yourself" question in an interview.
The "negatives" are only spun as positives for those who can't read anything more subtle than a legal memo.
1. You ain't coming back to the United States to see anyone here you may care about.
2. Unless you work Tokyo, you will be spending possibly a week a month on an airplane, and more away from "home."
3. You'll be working 14-hour days or effectively full+ days because of waiting around for someone else to wake up.
4. You are accountable for any dumb, client-losing crap that happens in your office, because it was probably you.
5. You may have to retool intensively and go into something you probably hate.
These are interesting columns, but could really do without the looong block quotes from Kinney recruiting. I get that they sponsor the column, but for them to be a content-shill makes the column itself less credible.
Hello Mr. Admissions Committee Member and if it is Ms. then I am sorry. I say this for you why it is that I wish to attend HLS. Thank you.
Where I am born in Asia it is like this. When it is cold, we use coal stove for keeping warm. This oven turn everything black--outside of house, walls near stove. Also inside of nostril is black and when you cough, phlegm is black also. For this reason when I am very young, my father is dying when I am very young of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease which is also caused by constant inhalation of fume for the coal oven and condition worsened by lack of medical care also.
I say this to you quickly for the blackness of poverty-stricken childhood in Asia. Like coal oven which sends dangerous fumes into air, poverty in over-crowded Asia are constant poison which must be breathed in to survive.
I am the lucky one. Through lengthy circumstance which I am also not for telling you at this time but which have true percentage chance of one in seven trillion, three hundred twenty two billion, one seventy two million, four hundred and twenty six thousand, five hundred and two, I have the great chance for attending Yale University in America. For this I am also the lucky one. This is for certain. While I am here, I have concentrate to remove smoke of indigence from my lung. This I do by work fulltime and also through schoolwork. It is the proud thing for me that I am graduating from fine undergraduate institution.
Also while I am here I learn much about the great American melting pot. I say this for you. In America the only melting I see is that many American say is all Asian. For certain in America there is no Chinese, Japanese. Also there is no Vietnamese or Thai. This is for certain in America there is no Hmong or other small ethnic group. Also for America, we are all melted together into one group: Asian only and model minority also.
Also this is true for what are called people but not for food. Thank you.
For this reason, I say that I am from Asia. Also I am from Asia for it would be the great thing for there should be one in seven trillion, three hundred twenty two billion, one seventy two million, four hundred and twenty six thousand, five hundred and two chance also happen to other person of my family! Also it is for certain that my family is in Asia and for the letter I receive, they still keep warm around coal oven and also it is often cold there. Still they are inhaling black corrosive odor of poverty.
Also for this I learn that although in Asia there are Korean and Cambodean and other ethnic group and in America only Asian I am know for certain that black smoke from coal stove, scented with perfume of penury, is to be found in all country in Asia also and not just with my family. I am to return to Asia to be with my family also I hope to foster business relation in Asia through public policy which help clear up figurative black coal smoke from poorest part of Asia.
Also literal black coal smoke which is bad for environment.
For this reason I plan to return to Asia after law school and for this reason I am apply to HLS and HLS only, for HLS is the best in Asia. Also I hope to return to Asia after HLS and to also be the best for Asia. Thank you.
Someone tell 8:36 that racism isn't funny.
Has anyone had their inbox spammed by Mr. Jowers yet? He sent me an email the other day about how awesome Dubai is. It was probably as long as all of these fluff pieces he has written.
I am Roger Lou and I write to my friends, Asia Corporate Lawyers.
In English there is this idiom: dogged persistence. I ask for you what is the persistence for the dog? I am think of the dog which is chase the cat for the short space of time. First it is make the big racket. Next it is to dash like crazed beast through bush and street to try for catch the cat. Then it is to forget what it is to do and to lick itself in the place which I am not here for mention. This is the persistence for the dog: the big noise, followed by the big failure. When I decide to go for law school, I made the big noise. The noise that I am make is to be heard by all my friends and family. I say to them I am to go to Harvard Law School, for the great reason that Harvard Law School is best in Asia.
The first year I was to decide this I am apply to Harvard Law School with certainty I am to be accepted. It was with greatest shock I was to receive the letter for the rejection. The second year I was to make the bigger noise. I rewrote personal statement, found better recommender. I researched much of the informations on Harvard Law School. I went over application to Harvard Law School, as you are to say in the other idiom for English, with the fine-toothed comb. I say for you if you are to attempt to groom the dog with fine-toothed comb for certain you are to realize inherent lack of dignity in the mix of the metaphor. Also the mix of the metaphor was soon to turn to the mix of the drink, when with relief I am receive the important news: accept for 2006 Harvard Law School class. It was with greatest shock I was to discover lack of eligibility for educational visa for the next two year. This is the third year in which I am apply for Harvard Law School. Because of problem with the visa, I am at this time apply for Harvard class for 2008. Possible you are to think that apply the three times for Harvard Law School is to demonstrate the dogged persistence. For this reason I am ask that you are to accept me and also to allow for defer the additional year. Even dog need time off to lick the crotch before once again yelp, bark, and chase after the crimson cat.
With respect,
诶比西
8:48,
Yeah, I got one those, too. Here I was thinking I was special.
Dearest friend who I know as 8:41 PM,
Me is Roger Lou. You write to Roger "Someone tell 8:36 that racism isn't funny." Roger races nowhere except to the U.S. of A. to head to Cambridge where Io apply to Harvard Law School -- best in Asia.
With respect,
诶比西
does this roger lou character work for kinney recruiting? he really isn't a good writer / spokesman. kind of odd, i must say.
9:20. Rumor has it that 诶比西 (aka, Roger Lou) is an Asian associate currently on sabbatical with one of the international markets practice groups of Sutherland Asbill & Brennen. I can't confirm this, just a rumor.
I actually liked the long quotes from Kinney. Interesting info. Yes it's sponsored content, but that's perfectly clear. Read it w/ a grain of salt or just skip it, 8:21.
Sellllllllll out, sellllllll out.
Quality is down, down, down. But hey - revenues are up, up, up, right ??
The comments are looking more and more like TTT law students and less like top lawyers, and the "content" is looking more like advertising and LCD, and less like news.
The one big thing they don't talk about is the sense of cultural isolation. Remember, even if people (supposedly) speak English over there, it's ultimately still their second or third language. I was born and raised in HK, and a teenager when I came to the US. Even *I* feel isolated when I go back these days.
At the end of the day, you will primarily be dealing with people who have very different perceptions about how to do things, how to build relationships, how to handle the agent/attorney-client relationship, etc. If you've never lived or worked in Asia before, just remember that on top of your work-related stress, you'll also have this whole social-cultural stress, or at least adjustment.
The expat communities are growing, but still pretty fragmented, so it's not like you can just step into any place and instantly find people like you to hang out with -- it will take a lot more effort.
Still, I'm all for exposing US lawyers to more international cultures. It's already integral to many areas of law - financial, technology / IP, environmental, trade, etc.
I love the ACL series, just sorry there's so many ig'nant haters here. I want to lock up my HK job before Obama gets elected and cuts me deep.
Lat -- how about some editing of the comments so this doesn't turn into xoxo? Frankly, its building momentum and I'm not sure I like where it is going.
8:48,
Me too. You guys really think Evan is going to relocate to Dubai with his wife since they just love the city? I bet he'll miss the partying in Hong Kong too much to want to leave it that long.
As an associate based in HK, I would definitely agree with the travel part. Besides the "home leave" ticket that my firm pays for each year, I get enough frequent flier miles each year to get ANOTHER business class ticket back to the States. But I usually use it on regional trips for vacations to places like to Bali or Cebu
Maybe it's just the firm-sponsored alcohol talking, but " I ask for you what is the persistence for the dog?" is one of the funniest things I've read in a while.
double penetration is awesome!!!!!!!!!!
Exit opportunities, in and outside law, in Asia in US?
Anybody concerned about the human rights policies of any of these countries? No? Okay. Just checking.
Lame, ATL. Is this how you pay for your server? Well then I guess it's fine. Just get Kinney to stop posting in the comments.
Any real associates working in Asia want to give their feedback on the real downsides? While increased responsibility, increased client contact and long flights sound like real downers...
The only good thing about this post are the Roger Lou comments. This guy is friggin' histerical!
I am interested in relocating to Tokyo, but am concerned with the language issue. Can you get by without learning the language --both workwise, and living in the city? Also, how welcoming are the locals to americans?
good post. very informative.
6:45 -
Do the human rights policies of the U.S. stop you from working in the U.S. or on U.S. deals?
Just checking.
8:59 is one of the best comments I've read in a long time.
Roger Luo to HLS!
Instead of smart ass answers...can anyone, preferably lat, say something about law firms' policies in their Middle Eastern officers, such as QATAR and the UAE. Are they as generous as the Asian officers?
thanks
6:45: Yes, you're right. The United States's human rights abuses are far, far worse than those of China (where you get your ass thrown in jail for being a political dissident) and Saudi Arabia (where you get your ass thrown in jail for being gay, where women are basically segregated from men, and where there's an enormous amount of human trafficking).
I know the U.S. is no angel (especially with what's going on in Guantanamo and all), but it's flat-out stupid to say "Hey, it's just as bad here!." It's really, really not.
These posts have been rather HK-centric. Can we get a post on Japan?
9:48
Tokyo is English friendly. It's the major tourist spot and the major business hub. Refusing to learn any Japanese if you will be there for more than a month is foolish, but you can get by just fine with far less than fluancy.
Japanese are all racist in a Japanese sort of way. They certainly note that you are not Japanese, but they will bend over backwards to be helpful so long as you at least attempt cultural sensitivity. You are "expected" to be bad at more subtle cultural stuff and at speaking Japanese. "Your Japanese is very good." is basically akin to "Wow, that dog walks on its hind legs!"
Japan also is famously clean and very safe by the standards of someone used to American big cities - so long as you don't go actively looking for trouble, i.e. Roppongi in Tokyo.
Dearest Mr. 12:31 PM (or, if you happen to be a Ms. 12:31 PM, then Roger is sorry).
Me am Roger Lou (no spelled "Luo" but "Lou"). I write to explain that Harvard Law School is best in Asia. Roger also likes the America's University, Washington College of Law -- best in America. Roger likes the Songliao region of China and not cares less about Hong Kong and other "melting pots" of urban areas. Too many people and dogs and smog in Hong Kong; no baseball or "Budweiser -- King of Beers." So, as for the respect to Hong Kong, Roger says FU.
With respect,
诶比西
12:21
The point isn't the relative human-rights records of Asia or the U.S.
The point is that you assume people who work in Asia aren't bothered by injustice the same as you are in the U.S. or aren't just as frustrated by their inability to change things while they do what they can to make their way in this world.
Well, that's just the attitude of a sanctimonious twit.
I thought housing allowance was part of overall COLA package?
I was fresh out of law school and only on the job here for about 3 months when I had to personally drive an "A1" meeting at the printer right before submitting a prospectus to the HK Stock Exchange. I had about 10 bankers and 4 lawyers on the opposite side handing me their contraversial mark-ups and expecting me to make decisions about what substantively should be in the prospectus.
I would say don't come here if you are not ready for a trial by fire like that.
Also, there is a big imbalance of pretty women here to eligible men, so take the discussion above about the great nightlife with a grain of salt. It's great if you are a man but I know some lawyer gals here who have given up on the local dating market.
Great idea. I think there should be a post on the downside of there being too many girls in Asia.
Hahahaha.
O noes! Too many pretty wimmins!!11!1one
hey hklawyer, i saw your other posts about sidley and baker&mckenzie in dallas and i was wondering if i could talk to you about them. any way to contact you that wouldn't be creepy?