What kind of hours would he work for that 70k?

LOL at tipster's estimates for new manager pay. In cities where the Big Four starting salary is $70k for JDs, the new manager salary is more like $100k.

1:55 - But it probably beats being a contract attorney.

You'll work nearly as much as biglaw. Bad deal until you make partner... which pays pretty decent. EY equity partners were around 500k in FL.

What are the big four accounting firms?

Oh yes, and I also LOL at tipster's plan to leverage law school into a deemed three year's experience.

If you come in with an LLM, Big Four *might* give 1 year credit or bring you in as a "senior." However, Big Four does not give experience credit for years spent in law school, and in many markets gives no credit for an LLM .

<---- Former Big Four. Hated it.

$150-175k for a manager position unless you have been a manager for a couple years AND are at the top end of the pay range. A first-year manager typically doesn't break $100k, including bonuses.

The Big Four are Deloitte, Ernst & Young, KPMG, and PricewaterhouseCoopers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_auditors

$70,000? lol

What's the difference between legal work at an accounting firm and legal work at the tax department of a law firm?
Why don't all clients go to the cheaper accounting firms for legal advice?

"[O]nce a person makes Manager (four to five years of experience), they make $150K-$175K. "

THSI IS AN ABSOLUTE AND UTTER LIE, AND SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR POST ASAP.

Managers make in the low 100s.

In NYC M&A groups, starting salary can reach $110k for JD/LLMs. Outside the City starting salaries range from $55k-85k.

Quite honestly, Big Four is the missing link of sorts. It splits the difference between Biglaw and Tinylaw in salary, essentially hitting the mythical "medium-size law firm" salary point for most markets.

One HUGE advantage of Big 4 is travel. I interviewed at Deloitte and they basically told me that I could be posted anywhere in the world for 3-6months if I so wish. The associate I went to lunch with had just spent 6 months in Finland, (which he chose because his gf was there for study abroad).

2:18,

Travel is a negative. At places like Deloitte (a.k.a. the McDonalds of business) they make you travel to wherever there is work. You don't have a choice.
In fact they tell you this up front. Something like 3 days travel two days at home on average.

The accounting firms are horrible. They're wanna bes. They're bottom feeders. They're toilets.

Big 4s hire JDs all the time...not just in tax. All firms have Forensic/Dispute Advisory groups that have lots of JDs working. Several firms Forensic groups are led by JDs...

Other posters are in the ballpark about salaries...the tipster is having delusions with the numbers they threw out. However, partners in Big 4 do very, very well.
And remember - you are not billing 2500-3000 hours a year so your salary links to that but that means you have a somewhat more tangible work-life balance.

Does work for one of the Big 4 cut you out as a potential lateral hire in biglaw?

2:15--the line is fuzzy, and I would love to get a good explanation of the differences. In my experience, most clients go to accountants for routine questions, but that they go to law firms to handle transactions. So, setting up a new 401(k) plan = accountants, selling a division of the company = law firm.

Generally, accountants cannot advise as to non-tax legal issues. But can lawyers who work for accounting firms? Anyone know?

"Does work for one of the Big 4 cut you out as a potential lateral hire in biglaw?"

Heck no, except in very rare cases.

Accounting firm = sweatshop hell of biglaw + pay of small law. Worst of both worlds.

"What's the difference between legal work at an accounting firm and legal work at the tax department of a law firm?"
"Why don't all clients go to the cheaper accounting firms for legal advice?"

There's a difference between the two. Accounting firms mainly handle client audits, taxes and financial and tax due diligence. Big firm lawyers are for to expensive for those things.

Tax attorneys at large firms do a lot of work structuring transactions, investment funds, etc. in tax efficient ways. They also review agreements drawn up by the transactional groups in the firm. There might be some competition with accounting firms, but for the most part big-firm tax lawyers are a lot better at this kind of work and more attuned to the issues.

Clients also know that tax is one of the few area in law where doing things the right can save them significant amounts of money, and doing things wrong can cost them just as much. You generally get what you pay for, and clients aren't opposed to spending a little more to have the best tax attorneys available review things.

"What's the difference between legal work at an accounting firm and legal work at the tax department of a law firm?"

That's like asking:

"What's the difference between the food at McDonalds and the food at Chez Pierre."

In one sense, there's no differenc.e In another sense, there's a world of difference.

In Big 4, only senior equity partners make good money. Before that, even new partners don't make much.

I've heard the so-called 5-5 rule, which means you can make 500K per year after being a partner for 5 years.

On the other hand, the hours are much less than Big Law.

"If I had a nickel for every time someone told me 'you can do a lot with a law degree,' I'd have enough to pay for about a semester of law school."

A SEMESTER?!?!? I'd have paid off my loans years ago and be retired in my Oceanside mansion in Malibu.

Please don't hire as a blog writer a person who, in a cover letter, uses a cliche.

What do ppl w/ MBAs typically make right out of business school, and where does it go from there?

I'm a recent NYU LLM. Some friends of mine from NYU and from my JD school have gone the Big 4 route, and one or two of them were competent and qualified enough to go anywhere but just weren't attracted to Biglaw. Having said that, important aspects of Big 4 work seem to vary across a wide range.

The sophistication of one's work and peers seems to vary. A lot. Some friends are happy and apparently doing top-level work, others visibly wilt while describing ill-informed bosses and the inferior work product of their groups.

Hours also seem to vary. A lot.

In my experience, Big 4 firms have just plain milked some of my firm's smaller clients on int'l tax planning and tax controversy work. At least three times I've seen or heard first-hand reports about them charging a ton for doing next to nothing. I've also seen/heard about some great professionals at Big 4.

Also, it's supposedly very difficult to lateral into Biglaw at earlier stages in your career.

RE: THE LATERAL LINK AD

If they paid out 100k in ref fee's and placements, that means they placed LESS THEN 10 PEOPLE ALL MONTH - that seems pretty skimpy.....
Not surprising since they have to bribe associates to use them. I would never choose a HH firm for 10k pre tax.

It is my understanding that lawyers at accounting firms cannot engage in the practice of law, but that the giving of tax advice is not interpreted as the practice of law.

So they can give tax advice and tax opinions, but cannot draft legal documents or give legal opinions as to non-tax issues. They don't have attorney-client privilege with their clients.

It should also be noted that the number of years to manager was severely underestimated. It is possible to make it in five- but extremely rare. Four is unheard of.

It is also likely that you will have to pass the CPA before you can make manager - no one cares if you have already passed the state bar exam.

And no, attorneys in the general tax practice at accounting firms cannot practice law. In fact, you have to sign off on an UPL questionnaire for every project for every client.

Started at Big Four in NYC in 2003 with JD/LLM at 90k (BigLaw was 120 at the time), one year later, moved to BigLaw, although it was difficult and not much credence given to skills (mostly accounting) gained at BigFour...(I got credit for LLM but not for my time in BigFour). It can be done. Managers (4 or 5 years in) were making much less than 150/175 at least at that time. Sloppy tax work by BigFour compared to BigLaw,(no surprise clients won't use them for big transactions).

Decent hours for most of the year, alot less than BigLaw but pay is lower, we had lots of opportunity for free lunches on client that don't exist in BigLaw (like 2 or 3 times a week). Pay doesn't compare...especially when you are asked to "help out" by doing spreadsheets for tax returns that you have no idea what you are doing. For most lawyers, unless you become a CPA, you can only advance so far.

Travel-

So what is the travel like? I was under the impression accountants in Audit travel a lot, why would JDs in the tax department have to travel?

I would rather die than work at an accounting firm. I could scarcely stomach the accounting aspects of practicing law.

How does the fee-sharing limitations work? When the lawyers at accounting firms bill out to clients, and get paid by the clients, aren't at least some of these fees shared by the rest of the firm's partners (who are not all lawyers)? Or does the limitation not apply because the accounting firm lawyers are not doing legal work.

Tax attorneys don't travel much, at least not out of NYC. Although you can sign up for a year or two abroad after you have some time in if the group likes you and there is a spot.

C'mon Big4/Big 5 Alumni - Tell the folks the biggest shame-- you sit in a monkey Cube surrounded mostly by undergrad accoutnants, having to do CorpLite or whatever proprietary turbo tax software the firm uses. Everyone's clackling away on the "ten-keys" (a peripheral that connects to the laptop). I was a veteran of the accounting firms, and loved the look on the new JDs every time they were escorted to their new Cube on Day 1.

The bonuses are great too. You work you ass off to get the top EE rating in the group, which is 8%. That's a whopping $5600 (70K base).

"Some people told me to refuse to do any accounting work and to insist on only doing legal work."

Who the F*ck is this person kidding? There IS NO legal work at the accounting firms. Only Accounting work. Unless its the inhouse department dealing with litigation matters, there is no legal work in Big 4. Say hello to your friends MS Excel.

I am a first-year associate at D&T's GSG group in NJ. The work is very sophisticated (pships, intl). I am a JD/LLM/CPA, and the pay is very competitive with biglaw (hence the name "Big4"), but with less hours. I started at 160K (130 base, 10 sign-on, 10 relocation, 10 bar exam). My senior managers have said based on past years, I can expect a 20-25% bonus. Not bad to do corporate tax work that I like.

2:43, I don't think there's a "typical" salary for people with MBAs because you can get an MBA even more places than you can get a JD. You can get your MBA from San Diego State and continue waiting tables, or you can get your MBA in the Ivys and print cash faster than NYC BigLaw.

2:51 PM (2) -- Five years is pretty standard to make manager, and if it takes you more you need to start considering other options. I will grant that four is agressive.

Also, only one of the manager-and-above attorneys in my former group was also a CPA. You just need bar or CPA, not both. That may differ by firm or city, though.

I call bullshit on 3:29. I just finished the LLM program at NYU, and I didn't hear about anyone getting anything close to that. The most I heard was $115 to start in M&A at PWC in NYC.

And its absurd for you to thing that "Big 4" is some kind of reference to "Biglaw." It clearly refers to the fact that there are four major players in the accounting field that are far and above everyone else.

3:29 -- You have done well for yourself, as GSG (Global Strategies Group) is *the* highest-paying group at Deloitte. For the uninitiated, it is basically a global structuring group.

However, it is also a very, very small group, 40 or less if I remember correctly. So you are the exception that proves the rule that B4, generally, sucks for JD/CPA/LLMs.

@ 2.43 -- Salary pretty much depends on the school you went to. Highest ranked b-schls = easy to get into IB = great salary + bonus (w/hours as 'bad' as biglaw). If you're not a grad from a top school, it's a little tougher to break into IB without prior experience, but plenty of opportunities in corp. finance (lower salary, ~$80-90k, 9-5 workday). Most companies will promote you fairly quickly, so breaking into 6 figs isn't too hard w/in the first 2 years in corp. finance.

If you have a JD/MBA, the opportunities open up as these grads are highly sought after at consulting firms b/c legal consulting is a high growth area for a lot of the big and midsize consulting outfits. Expect $85 - $100k depending on firm and prior experience. If only relying on an MBA, it's pretty much required that you have a steller GPA from a highly ranked b-schl and prior work experience to get into the Booz Allen and McKinseys of the world. I iviewed at a few midsize consulting firms and they were pretty aggressive in their offers b/c of the JD/MBA. Most of the MDs I talked to said legal consulting was a huge growth opportunity for them currently and in the future. Lat should explore that avenue.

Question I haven't seen answered is What does it take to get a BIG4 job as a JD?

Obviously not BIGLAW credentials. But there are tons of grads out there doing shitlaw or doc review, so is the competition still pretty keen for BIG4 jobs?

Also, which is best for overall job opportunities OUTSIDE of a law firm- JD/MBA, JD/Tax LLM, or JD/CPA

Question I haven't seen answered is What does it take to get a BIG4 job as a JD?

Obviously not BIGLAW credentials. But there are tons of grads out there doing shitlaw or doc review, so is the competition still pretty keen for BIG4 jobs?

Also, which is best for overall job opportunities OUTSIDE of a law firm- JD/MBA, JD/Tax LLM, or JD/CPA

Question I haven't seen answered is What does it take to get a BIG4 job as a JD?

Obviously not BIGLAW credentials. But there are tons of grads out there doing shitlaw or doc review, so is the competition still pretty keen for BIG4 jobs?

Also, which is best for overall job opportunities OUTSIDE of a law firm- JD/MBA, JD/Tax LLM, or JD/CPA

I worked in Big 4 out of Georgetown's LLM program. They pay was terrible, (67k in DC), the work sucked (tax returns and spreadsheets), the morale was in the toilet (everyone was looking to leave), and it does nothing for your resume.

Lawyers need to be with lawyers and let the CPAs crunch numbers and fill out 1020s and 1065s. Blech.

Most of the people posting comments on this subject have no clue what they are talking about. Yes, most of the groups in Big 4 do a lot of compliance (or nothing but compliance--they're called accountants), but there also are others that do nothing but tax planning/deal structuring. And yes, there are certain groups that do no compliance whatsoever. As far as salary is concerned, I was making $125K in NY as a second year. I'm now with a law firm making BIGLAW salary and bonus (i.e., double) but doing less interesting/less challenging work. In fact, if the money were the same, I'd go back to my old group doing tax planning for private equity funds in a second....I also did a lot more "legal writing" at BIG 4 than I'm doing now. It truly is amusing to hear tax snobs talk about how much higher level work is done at a law firm than at an accounting firm. That's pure b.s. in some instances, especially among the junior associates. I worked with some tax partners at BIGLAW firms as an associate with the BIG 4 that didn't know crap and it was shocking how much had to be explained to them (not to mention they're inability to write a coherent opinion). In fact, I'd take certain junior level associates (jds) from an accounting firm over the same from a law firm given what I've seen from outside counsel on some of the deals that I worked on. Lastly, there is no real "typical" salary structure as there is room for negotiation. We had applicants asking for a $60K starting salary when we would have started them at 80-90....

Most of the people posting comments on this subject have no clue what they are talking about. Yes, most of the groups in Big 4 do a lot of compliance (or nothing but compliance--they're called accountants), but there also are others that do nothing but tax planning/deal structuring. And yes, there are certain groups that do no compliance whatsoever. As far as salary is concerned, I was making $125K in NY as a second year. I'm now with a law firm making BIGLAW salary and bonus (i.e., double) but doing less interesting/less challenging work. In fact, if the money were the same, I'd go back to my old group doing tax planning for private equity funds in a second....I also did a lot more "legal writing" at BIG 4 than I'm doing now. It truly is amusing to hear tax snobs talk about how much higher level work is done at a law firm than at an accounting firm. That's pure b.s. in some instances, especially among the junior associates. I worked with some tax partners at BIGLAW firms as an associate with the BIG 4 that didn't know crap and it was shocking how much had to be explained to them (not to mention they're inability to write a coherent opinion). In fact, I'd take certain junior level associates (jds) from an accounting firm over the same from a law firm given what I've seen from outside counsel on some of the deals that I worked on. Lastly, there is no real "typical" salary structure as there is room for negotiation. We had applicants asking for a $60K starting salary when we would have started them at 80-90....

Big 4 JD/MBA right here -- my time is spent 95% tax due diligence, and 5% structuring. Starting pay is $95k plus $5k signing, $5k bar passage, and reimbursement for barbri etc - I leave work between 7-8pm most nights - rarely do I have nights that go past midnight (but it has happened a couple times) - Partners/Sr. Managers/Managers can all be unruly but that is par for the course. Exit opportunities to Biglaw don't seem likely - but exit opportunities to more medium sized law firm's tax groups seem to be the course. Quality of life is pretty high, pay is good enough, and the firms prestige should be enough to help me get to a medium sized law firm where i can stay for 20+ years and try to make a career for myself.

Big 4 JD/MBA right here -- my time is spent 95% tax due diligence, and 5% structuring. Starting pay is $95k plus $5k signing, $5k bar passage, and reimbursement for barbri etc - I leave work between 7-8pm most nights - rarely do I have nights that go past midnight (but it has happened a couple times) - Partners/Sr. Managers/Managers can all be unruly but that is par for the course. Exit opportunities to Biglaw don't seem likely - but exit opportunities to more medium sized law firm's tax groups seem to be the course. Quality of life is pretty high, pay is good enough, and the firms prestige should be enough to help me get to a medium sized law firm where i can stay for 20+ years and try to make a career for myself.

3:57, you need to get into a different group, namely one doing international work, since they primarily do nothing but structuring/tax planning. Plus, speaking of exit opportunities, most of the group I was in left for tax director positions at hedge funds, private equity funds, etc., making more money than they would have at BIGLAW (with less hours) for their respective class years.

"I am a first-year associate at D&T's GSG group in NJ. The work is very sophisticated (pships, intl). I am a JD/LLM/CPA, and the pay is very competitive with biglaw (hence the name "Big4"), but with less hours. I started at 160K (130 base, 10 sign-on, 10 relocation, 10 bar exam). My senior managers have said based on past years, I can expect a 20-25% bonus. Not bad to do corporate tax work that I like."

Saying that you started at $160K is a bit deceptive. You start at $130K. Relocation - biglaw pays this as well; bar exam - biglaw pays this as well, sign-on - depending on the firm, biglaw pays this as well.

If you are starting at $160K, then I'd argue that the typical biglaw associate who is really starting at $160K is starting around $150K ($160K salary + $10K bar review courses, expenses, $10K moving allowance, $35K bonus) according to your fuzzy math.

DON'T Go to Big 4 -- I was there -- they SUCK... treat you like crap... it's a mindless bureaucracy.... worse than the DMV... if your computer isn't working you'll have to call a "help desk" in Florida... if you can get through to them...you'll work for people who have huge chips on their shoulders because their grades weren't high enough to get into BIGLAW.... 22 year old accountants with bachelors degrees will be your bosses... you won't have an office... you'll have a cubicle ... you'll work on the most boring things you can imagine... that's if you get any work to do... most of the time you'll be playing on the internet wondering how long the firm will continue to pay everyone when there is no work to do...you won't get compensated well... you will hate it ...

Your experience probably depends on where you are. I'm entering my fourth year at a Big 4 in Philadelphia, I can do tax returns if I want, I can do memos and opinion letters and planning if I want. I can argue in front of administrative appeal boards if I want (but not courts). What you should take from here is that I can do what I want. You don't have to do returns or work with Excel. I get paid pretty damn well considering I don't have to bill 80 hours a week. Our "requirement" is 1750 hours a year... charged to a client charge code. That's it. I can take a day off in the middle of the week to go to a baseball game and no one gets mad. I can leave early and no one asks where I am.

The other great thing about Big 4 is the actual work you get to do. I'm not working with Podunk, Inc. doing "hey, check this contract for spelling errors" work when I come in as a first year associate. I'm writing an opinion letter on a tax position for one of the biggest companies in the world.

So, if you like tax, go work at an accounting firm. Lateral hires into big law firms are easy in Philadelphia. You can also go work at a client/company if you don't like those long accounting firm hours.

You're raise at BIG 4 will be $500 a year ... they hate lawyers ...d on't go there unless you want to work in a cube for a 25 year old accountant -- also, you'll have a very hard time if you want to go to BIGLAW afterwards -- you will have to legal writing skills (I'm a Georgetown LLM -- take my advice -- I wasted a lot of time at BIG 4 in NYC)

Finally! Someone else with a favorable experience. Thanks 4:22. One last thing I'll point out concerning the tax snobbery of lawfirm associates is that those same snobs will be the first to reach for a BNA or a tax article written by David Garlock or the like (i.e., secondary sources written by lowly accounting firm personnel) when they have no clue what the hell they are doing....

You're raise at BIG 4 will be $500 a year ... they hate lawyers ...d on't go there unless you want to work in a cube for a 25 year old accountant -- also, you'll have a very hard time if you want to go to BIGLAW afterwards -- you will have to legal writing skills (I'm a Georgetown LLM -- take my advice -- I wasted a lot of time at BIG 4 in NYC)

Oh, and you do not need a CPA to advance to partner. Whoever's telling you that is a stone-cold moron.

4:29: maybe if you were proactive rather than wasting your time you (a) would have found a worthwhile group in NYC in which you would have developed writing skills and (b) would have received a raise greater than $500 (?!). Wow, you really must have underachieved to get that kind of raise.

I'm the 4:22 guy. Raises and bonuses are directly related to two things: (1) your rating (based on periodic reviews throughout the year) and (2) the amount of loot the firm makes. My raise and bonus last year amounted to about 15%, really nothing to sneeze at.

4:22 again, sorry I have a lot of comments. Accounting firms are not for everyone with a JD and an interest in tax, though. I know there are some people here who cannot take instruction from managers who are their own age and accountants. One guy in particular literally says things like "I'm smarter than her." or "I'm an attorney." on a consistent basis. If you're like that, if you need to take direction from lawyers with 50 years of experience who went to Harvard, then accounting firms are not for you.

For anyone considering Big 4, try to get into international tax (or M&A) (i.e., areas where you will do consulting/planning) in NYC and just think of it as a clerkship since you'll be underpaid but will be learning twice as much as your colleagues in BIGLAW, which will pay off sooner or later, especially if you'd prefer to be a tax director of a fund rather than a drone at BIGLAW.

4:29 Maybe they give you a bad raise because you couldn't even spell "your" right?

"For anyone considering Big 4, try to get into international tax (or M&A) (i.e., areas where you will do consulting/planning) in NYC and just think of it as a clerkship since you'll be underpaid but will be learning twice as much as your colleagues in BIGLAW, which will pay off sooner or later, especially if you'd prefer to be a tax director of a fund rather than a drone at BIGLAW."

I don't have anything against accounting firms, but your comment about BigLaw is incorrect. I am a tax associate in a BigLaw firm and I and almost all of the other associates in the tax department are learning a ton, including international tax and M&A planning.

If you have decent grades there is no need to go to an accounting firm -- you will not learn how to be any kind of lawyer there -- big mistake (trust me NYU LLM/ former BIG 4 -- had a very hard time switching to BIG Law) go to a lawfirm -- you went to law school to earn a good salary or at least work in the legal profession

"2:49 RE: THE LATERAL LINK AD"

If 10K upsets you as being a bribe or as not being enough, you'll likely have a conniption over the 18K being given out at http://www.firmtofirm.com

@ 3:52

"not to mention they're inability to write a coherent opinion)."

Congrats. You've just illustrated some important themes about accounting firm work: a notable lack of self-awareness and apparently misguided standards regarding quality.

Whoever made the comment about David Garlock... of course he has had time to write a whole treatise ... there is no real work at accounting firms... but ask him a real question about a real life transaction and he won't know -- accounting firm types don't have deal experience --go to a law firm and keep your dignity... go to BIG 4 and you'll be sitting in a BIGLAW office interviewing for a job within the year and grovelling for a real job as a LAWYER

"I don't have anything against accounting firms, but your comment about BigLaw is incorrect. I am a tax associate in a BigLaw firm and I and almost all of the other associates in the tax department are learning a ton, including international tax and M&A planning."

I was generalizing.....annoying isn't it, having someone generalize an entire group of people from a very limited knowledge base? I should have wrote "....as some of your colleagues..." if I wanted to be precise. And just because your group is learning a ton, that doesn't mean it is the norm. In that respect, funny that you preface your comment with "almost all"--thanks for giving some credence to my point.

Accounting<Law<Banking

A graduate of a top 20 law school has no excuse for not finding work SOMEWHERE for more than 70k.

Another accounting firm star @ 5:04... look how well they write "I should have wrote"

4:56. Way to catch a typo! Wow, you are good! I'm sure great deliberation, proofing, and review go into the drafting of a comment. Give yourself a pat on the back!

5:08: shouldn't that have been, "look how well they wrote 'I should have wrote'?"

2:49

Considering you don't know when to use "than" instead of "then," I doubt Lateral Link is targeting you.

All you doc review dorks that are proofing comments truly crack me up. I'm sure it helps out with those self-esteem issues.

What the frick is all this manager/senior shit ... I just started at BIG 4 and I HATE it ... the following are acceptable job titles for self-respecting lawyers... "Partner, Counsel, Associate, In-House Counsel, General Counsel" Also, why does every one around here dress like they just woke up?

What kind of credentials are needed to work for BIG4 straight out of law school?

Will someone with mediocre grades from a T20 be able to land a job?

So, is an LL.M. in tax even worth getting? How to avoid going to Big 4 with an LL.M. in tax?

All you need to land a job at BIG4 is a pair of khackis (preferably dockers) and a calculator

Current Big4 Tax - Most of the attorneys here that started out of law school within the past year are either LLMs or JDs with prior Big4 experience and/or accounting undergrads. I assume that someone from a T20 with a lot of tax classes and decent grades could get a job too.

What sort of pressure is there to bring in work at a Big Fore?

I was at BIG 4 for 2 years... I'm embarrassed by how poor my legal reserach and writing skills are -- I'm at BIG law now -- they brought me in as a first year -- they wouldn't give me any credit for my 2 years at BIG 4 and frankly, I don't blame them... I forgot how to use westlaw while I was at PWC

I currently work for PWC (the "Cravath" of accounting firms). I had the opportunity to work in tax at a V25 law firm, but chose PW because of its international reputation in Tax. PW, and the rest of the Big4, have more tax lawyers than even the largest law firms. For tax lawyers, there's no bigger or better place to learn and practice tax law. The only negatives are (i) your are officially a "consultant" due to restrictions on holding yourself out as a lawyer, (ii) pressures from upper management to get a CPA, and (iii) dealing with the contempt and intra-firm jealousy by the MSTs (Master of Taxation) and tax accountants. Oh, and yes, during the Busy Season (or "the Season" as its called), EVERYONE does tax returns. I am a manager, and even I have to crank out my foreign clients' US 1040s as a courtesy. My old firm (now defunct) used to even have a theme song to get us "cranked up" for the Busy Season. Its ALL about the Busy Season.

Lat,

Can you do a story on how much legal bloggers make? I imagine most don't make a lot but rather use their blogs to bring in other business.

why would you go to law school and not be able to "hold yourself out as a lawyer"??? I want to be a laywer not a F*ing consultant!

I'm 5:27, didn't get to finish my post earlier.

My feelings about my job ebb and flow. I don't love it, but it isn't a bad gig. I'm making low 6 figs after a year, probably a low bonus. I mostly do international M&A advisory and other international work, but to fill in some time, I pick up random accounting work. I don't particularly like it, but it keeps my hours up and it is easy work. I get in around 10 every day and leave around 7. I've worked 1 weekend my entire time here. I travel maybe once every 2 or 3 months. All my bar fees, bar memberships, conferences and CLEs are all paid for no questions asked. I've also published a couple articles since I've been here.

The pay is what it is, but for the number of hours I put in, it is probably worth it. I'm not enamored with the respect factor, but the accountants usually defer to my research skills and seek them out when they need it.

The job's what you make of it. I've had my share of firm life and chose this, but that's just me. Maybe I revel in mediocrity.

people at my BIG 4 office looked like absolute slobs ... law firm attire is much nicer, the offices are nicer, the secretaries understand that they have to WORK for a living, the pay is phenomenal, the perks are great, the hours are long and hard but if you are young and ambitious why would you go work for a glorified HR Block?

"All you need to land a job at BIG4 is a pair of khackis (preferably dockers) and a calculator"

--Haha, so very true. Its hard not to chuckle when I'm in the cafeteria and see all the Khakis, EY-logo golf shirts, or better yet, the short sleeve dress shirts! (I betcha you don't see that sh*t at the lawfirms!)

Does attire really matter when you're just sitting in a cube 8 hrs/day?

Associate from KPMG here. My practice group is called "International Banking" but in reality, its doing tax returns for international banks. Essentially, its like Turbo Tax Premium. Offices at 757 Third Avenue suck. Sometimes, I think management aggressively hire lawyers just to bring them in, break them down, and make themselves feel better. There are probably 10 bachelors/accounting for every lawyer, and I'm like the gazelle getting eaten alive here. Everyday I face wisecracks about, gee "you went to law school and we do the same thing" or gee "how can I review your work and you get paid more", etc. I get paid 80K but everyone is so jealous. (Non-JDs make 50K).

BUT, the worst part of my day is that I am floater-- meaning, I have to Reserve a New Cube every few weeks, so I have to strap on my firm-issued "Accountapack" -- my laptop backpack-- every morning. I'm sure I look ridiculous. Try going out with that afterwork.

So what's the best combo

JD/MBA, JD/CPA, or JD/LLM

You're all forgetting one thing. It's fine to go to Big4 ... but only to their National Tax Groups. They essentially operate as in-house tax counsel for the worldwide planning and compliance groups. That work is fairly sophisticated, and pays fairly well. I was offered 125K at Deloitte in DC coming out of my LL.M. program.

I work at Big4. Everyone's experience at a Big 4 is different, it depends on the group you are in, state and local, M&A, fed tax, international, etc. the city you're working in and the presence your particular Big4 has in that city and business community. Although I do find some of the work I do at Big4 pretty boring, I have done some great research and writing projects, appeals, restructures, etc. My research and writing skills have improved in my two years here. I have done almost no compliance whatsoever in my two years...please dont judge based on this posting! ;)
But again, the work an attorney does at Big 4 depends on so many factors. There are opportunities to do rotations in different groups or even different countries. Also, the work life balance is good. I can take time off pretty much whenever I want. The pay isnt awesome (I am a second year and make $65, but had a 5k signing bonus, 3k year end bonus, etc), but I leave by 5 or 530 every night (I usually work 8-9.5 hours a day) . Also, the clients my group does works with are Fortune 50 companies, plus we work with other big names in my city. Big 4 has its pros and cons....some days I like it and some days I hate it.

Are tax LLMs just for people who couldn't get a job the regular way?

One bit about Garlock-f***ing brilliant. The man has no equal in his area, but the 1270-1275 regs are very niche. He has a protege named Yorum Keenen who is amazing as well

Yeah -- and where is Yorum now? Decided to leave because Garlock wouldn't share any of the glory with him or the little real work that there is...

6:05 yes tax LLMs are for people who couldn't get real jobs at BIGLAW -- they get tax LLMs and end up at accounting firms hating life, surrounded by people who like they "dressed up" to clean thier garage

5:57 KPMG floater... I've been through what you are going through ... it's humiliating ...after a year I told BIG 4 to pi$$ off and got a real job at BIGLAW -- don't stay at BIG 4 too long -- you won't be able to get a job in BIGLAW if you do.

5:57 KPMG floater... I've been through what you are going through ... it's humiliating ...after a year I told BIG 4 to pi$$ off and got a real job at BIGLAW -- don't stay at BIG 4 too long -- you won't be able to get a job in BIGLAW if you do.

5:57 KPMG floater... I've been through what you are going through ... it's humiliating ...after a year I told BIG 4 to pi$$ off and got a real job at BIGLAW -- don't stay at BIG 4 too long -- you won't be able to get a job in BIGLAW if you do.

does anyone know of any lateral opportunities for Biglaw?

6:23 - Thanks. (Lat's server is slow, but one click does do the job!). Its good to know there are Big 4 folks that were able to make the switch.

BIG4 JD/MBA finishing up first year at firm -- earning very low six-figures -- here is my question -- to lateral to Biglaw I assume you still need the grades and school reputation that were required when applying as a 2L or 3L? What about moving to a medium sized (or more regional) firm? Will the BIG4 experience (while not impressing biglaw) impress a smaller firm?

6:01

The best combo is a JS + a BS in science or engineering or math. But too late for most people on these boards I guess.

Way better and harder than some flaky PolySci/history/sociology/arts and crafts/sharing your feelings major.

But perhaps im just a touch biased, hehe

To add to that maybe an MS would be better than BS. But getting a PhD in some science and THEN going to law school strikes me as awfully ineffecient. Like someone made a bad decision someplace along the line, though at least they won't want for employment.

To 6:36: You should try for BigLaw as well as medium-sized firms. Grades and school matter for laterals, but not nearly as much as they matter when hiring first years. And Big4 experience is seen as good, in many cases. If you look at the bios of tax associates at some of the big firms you'll see that some came from accounting firms and mid-ranked schools.

3:48:

All it takes is a pulse.

Anyone have an advice for job opportunities in tax law AFTER a one-year state appellate clerkship?

I worked at a Big4 last summer in tax (75% doing returns, 25% writing tax memos/giving advice). I received a full-time offer for after graduation, but then landed a judicial clerkship. They were willing to defer my offer for a year, but I felt like taking the exact same offer a year later (tax associate at $60k/yr) would basically be a waste of my clerking experience.

I graduated at the top of my class from a T3. I have a BS in Finance and worked as a corporate accountant for several years before law school. So what are my best options to utilize my JD and finance experience once my judicial clerkship is over? Thoughts?

7:25 if you graduated at the top of your class why would you take a BIG 4 job? BIG 4 is for losers who couldn't get BIGLAW jobs ... don't you want to be a LAWYER ?

As a long term big4, all I can say is for god's sake don't get an LLM, they are a complete waste whether you are going to a big4 or biglaw. Take some tax classes during your JD program and pay attention. LLMs all walk around like they are god's gift to tax, but they typically can't accomplish anything since they have infinite technical "issues" they have to "think about."

To 7:25, if you graduated from the top of your class, even if its a TTT, you should be able to find opportunities in law. My advice is to forget about Big 4 and focus on medium size firms or perhaps the IRS. The IRS will value your judicial experience, Big4 will ignore it completely. As way of background, I have done time in all three: Big4, IRS and lawfirm.

The LLM degree has a substantial amount of merit in the tax field. Althouth there has been a current trend of people getting their LLMs because they did not get a job out of law school, it is still a very respected degree in the field, especially in the eyes of clients (who often are also tax professionals).

Making the switch to BIGLAW is not as hard as it used to be. Many firms recognize that former BIG 4 JDs have many hard skills lacking in pure BIGLAW tax lawyers, though their writing is generally much weaker (generally, not the rule). The best opportunities are probably at the larger midsize firms who are craving tax tallent in the current market. If you have BIG 4 NYC or national office experience, most DC firms will take you seriously as long as your JD grades are respectable.

If you are at a BIG 4 and want to make the switch, make sure you are not doing compliance. The biggest areas of law firm demand that I have noticed are Sub K, Financial Products, and International. If you are solid in Sub K planning, there is clearly a BIG LAW job out there for you.

Note to 5:57: I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I read about your experience in the "International Banking" unit in KPMG at 757 3rd Ave.

Nearly eight or nine years ago I worked in the same department. I was there for a number of months and from my third day there I really despised the place. I'm not a JD, rather an MBA.

Everything about the experience was terrible. The work was mind numbing. The environment was horrible. The supervisors who were 1-2 years old than the new associates were neurotic about making sure the associates were "chargeable." Even when I wasn't doing chargeable work, they wanted me there until 8-9 at night. I told my manager to get lost. The supervisors were also horribly paternalistic---always commenting about every behavior of the associates. The partners barely even acknowledged the existence of the associates.

There were a few attorneys who really hated themselves for working there. they complained that they were being supervised by pinheaded 23 year old accounting nerds.

My two cents are for any JD to run for the hills!!!! (And thanks for letting me vent and laugh nine years later.)

Become an actor. There sure seem to be lots of professional actors with law degrees. Many of them are former big firm associates, while others worked for small to medium sized firms. Of course, one caveat -- you'll need a personality.

Become an actor. There sure seem to be lots of professional actors with law degrees. Many of them are former big firm associates, while others worked for small to medium sized firms. Of course, one caveat -- you'll need a personality.

Become an actor. There sure seem to be lots of professional actors with law degrees. Many of them are former big firm associates, while others worked for small to medium sized firms. Of course, one caveat -- you'll need a personality.

Become an actor. There sure seem to be lots of professional actors with law degrees. Many of them are former big firm associates, while others worked for small to medium sized firms. Of course, one caveat -- you'll need a personality.

As a ex-Big-4 CPA with a master's in taxation and a JD, I can say from experience that most attorneys don't have a head for numbers. You need a fairly strong accounting background to follow the numbers; you have to be able to follow the money to understand a deal.

The "conventional wisdom" I have always heard is that tax is the one and only area where an LLM is valuable, and sometimes even expected.

Friend of mine from law school got his LLM in tax and ended up with a way better tax law job than I think he was likely to get without it. I think its mid-size place. He was happy with it anyhow.

I also went to an accounting firm (non-Big 4) after finishing my JD at a top-20 school, and I am totally regretting it. First, the money stinks ($75K). Second, the firm described the position as a "Senior Legal Tax Associate" position, yet I do very little research and writing, and I do a bunch of spreadsheets and tax returns. I am trying to rescue my legal career by getting a Tax LLM from Georgetown. We'll see if that works. Sigh.

I also went to an accounting firm (non-Big 4) after finishing my JD at a top-20 school, and I am totally regretting it. First, the money stinks ($75K). Second, the firm described the position as a "Senior Legal Tax Associate" position, yet I do very little research and writing, and I do a bunch of spreadsheets and tax returns. I am trying to rescue my legal career by getting a Tax LLM from Georgetown. We'll see if that works. Sigh.

I also went to an accounting firm (non-Big 4) after finishing my JD at a top-20 school, and I am totally regretting it. First, the money stinks ($75K). Second, the firm described the position as a "Senior Legal Tax Associate" position, yet I do very little research and writing, and I do a bunch of spreadsheets and tax returns. I am trying to rescue my legal career by getting a Tax LLM from Georgetown. We'll see if that works. Sigh.

I wasted 2.5 years at BIG 4 ... big mistake... my supervisors were deranged -- most dysfunctional group of people I've ever worked with-- they hate lawyers and are always out to prove they are more "worthy" -- if you have decent grades don't go to BIG 4 -- big mistake ... also, you'll have a hard time transitioning to BIG LAW -- BIG LAW really snubs BIG 4 experience and so you won't get any credit (or you'll get minimal credit) for the time you spend at BIG 4 -- I lost 2.5 years that could have been partnership track years at BIG LAW --

Wasting time in BIG 4 national tax... trying to get a job a BIG LAW but no luck yet...I don't know how to perform basic research on west law and in the three years I've been here have not once had to write a memo... let alone an opinion (I don't even know if we write opinions here) -- the bosses are so strange... very nosy and patronizing ...

The national tax practice is the only place to go as a JD/LLM in Big4. I got a huge raise to switch there from a law firm and have a terrific work-life balance - while doing far more interesting and cutting edge tax work (and writing complex opinions) than I ever did at my law firm. You can't technically "practice law" but basically this means that you get to work on interesting issues without having to push deal docs back and forth.

12:58 -- i'm in National Tax and haven't had any real work since I got here... there is nothing to do ... it's all educational b.s. stuff -- I don't feel like a lawyer... I feel like a chump for having taken this job

Also 12:58 -- what the heck "cutting edge work" are you talking about? there is no work at all -- that's why people are so petty and competitive -- there is nothing to do

Oh, one more thing that sucks about accounting firms in the DC area is that they are all in the outer suburbs. Not only do you have a low salary, but you're spending $4/gal to drive to the boonies!

BIG 4 sucks -- I second all the comments above against BIG 4 -- go there and you're legal career is in the toilet...

I am surprised by all of the negative experiences of JDs at Big 4. Why is it that all of the Big 4 consistently make CNN.com's Top 50 employers list, and have great benefits e.g. plenty of vacations and 401K matching?

1:51 that's the point we are making -- BIG 4 is fine if you're a CPA or secretary or othe admin-type -- it is no place for lawyers who want to do legal work

For the love of god, people, learn the difference between "you're" and "your" and "their" and "they're," etc. I hope you Big 4 aspirants' math skills are better than your English skills.

this is 12:58 again - I'm not that surprised by the negative experiences in Big 4 outside of national tax - that experience will vary greatly depending on your specific practice, office, and partners (as well as your own ability, both technically and in the sense of having the strength to direct your own career). I know JDs in my firm who aren't in national tax and are miserable with their particular roles...but others are happy. Remember that these firms have offices in most major cities around the country and many sub-groups within tax, so I wouldn't take any single poster's comments as indicative of an entire organization. I am surprised however by the person who is saying they have no work in national tax and doesn't even know if they write opinions - I have no answer to that except to say that unfortunately, you haven't found the right fit for your career and should move on. I do think it would be hard to come into national tax without any prior tax experiece (i.e., right out of law school or after LLM) so maybe that is the problem - in my observation, people who call national tax for help (who are usually the tax professionals in the operating offices around the country/world) want an answer quickly and if you don't have at least some experience, it's hard to participate meaningfully in the work. Once you have a certain level of expertise, the work gets better. Then again, that is just my personal observation of one national tax group in one firm. Yes, we do other things besides client work - such as teaching and writing articles, but that all "counts" and whether you like it will depend on what you are looking for. The firms are good in terms of vacation - 6 weeks at sr manager level (and yes, I take it) and 401k matching (over $8k for 2007--of course, I need to vest to keep it).

BIG 4's english skills suck -- have you ever read a memo or opinion written by someone there?

Roger Lou don't you want a job at BIG 4?

the question is why would you go to BIG 4 if you went to lawschool and have any self-respect? I HATE my BIG 4 job and regret ever agreeing to come here ... I just didn't have a choice because my grades sucked .. national tax is a joke there is nothing to do... all the lawyers who come here are losers - I hate being a floater and I hate sitting in a cubicle and listening to secretaries on the phone all day ... this job is a complete joke

2:27 I feel your pain -- I was a floater too... I'm now a "senior" -- the whole thing is so humiliating -- worst thing is visitng your real lawyer friends in thier nice offices -- all potential BIG 4 JDs -- watch out for this - they might bring you in at 90-100k but you will get 2K -3K raises a year -- by your 3rd yr. you'll be so far behind your law school classmates on the pay scale that it's pitiful

I can totally understand all these negative comments/ experiences at BIG 4 -- I was there and had a terrible time

2:27/2:34, I am the KPMG Floater who posted earlier on the board... its good to know that others have been put through the same Worthless Big 4 Crap experience. There's nothing more humiliating than having to reserve your cubicle space and pack up your laptop everyday or move every few weeks. The young college grads accept it as the norm, but to the JDs, its bullshit.

There may be some commentators here who work for a Big 4 National Tax Group, and say their jobs are cushy and as satisfying as Biglaw (financially and intellectually), and that's great for them. But that's simply not the norm for JDs, and not worth the risk of doing pship K-1's with 21 y/o college grads. Any self-respecting JD should Stay Away from Big 4. Even do contract work, gov't, or public interest for while if possible!!!!!!!

Read my 10:59 post last night. I recall in Big 4 so many JDs who were miserable because they thought they would be doing tax research and they ended up creating depreciation & amortization schedules of fixed assets (and then having accounting geeks review the schedules).

One hilarious incident. I once prepared a tax return and I admit I had practically no idea what I was doing---they just told me do whatever was done last year.

So I created the return and made about 30 errors. The procedure was that when the "senior" reviews the grunt's work, the senior folds a yellow paper in half (must be yellow, must be in half) and writes in column "1" the grunt's mistakes. The grunt in turn, is supposed to make the changes on the return, and write in column "2" on the yellow paper what corrections were made.

It turned out practically all of my 30 errors were minor-typo, missed figure, etc. So I asked my "senior" why do I have do go back correct the return and correct the yellow page---wouldn't it be quicker and easier for her just to make the minor changes and show me the more substantive changes. She was flabbergasted that I could suggest such a blasphemous approach!!! They had always used the yellow paper and seniors never did the grunt's work (and I guess they could bill out for two people working).

In sum, as an outsider, if you're a JD don't consider it unless you really have no other options!!!

To all those complaining about BIG4, did you guys have jobs BEFORE going to law school?

I am not insulting anyone or their experiences, but so far the complaints seem to be pay, asshole supervisors, and mundane uninteresting work.

But those are complaints that are pretty common WHATEVER job you have. Even BIGLAW, you could have the same problems, outside of the pay (which seems to be somewhat offset at a BIG4 by less hours).

So I have to wonder, are the complaints something you all believe to be UNIQUE to working at BIG4, or it's just a problem you'd have at most jobs

5:03 -- STFU

Compliance at an investment bank is the way to go. 8:30-6:00 hours, no weekends and better pay than the big 4

Not to mention traveling around the world with everything expensed!

5:32- EAT ME

Spent couple of of years in Big 4 tax. Did some good legal work but mostly compliance. Now Biglaw. Work may not be always interesting here but main factor is that I have my dignity back now and knowledge that at least all my co-workers have been through law school and possess functioning brains.

Most people in Big 4 are not very bright. Fortunately the partners do seem on the ball but that doesn't make up for the masses of idiots down below. Some people were just laughable e.g. Consultant who asked what "Enron" was during a team meeting. Sad thing is that this was not surprising coming from Consultant.

I was quite junior in Big 4 but remember a senior wanting me to come along to a client meeting because I was an 'expert' in a certain area of law when I had only shown on a few prior occasions that I had thought through the area of law and consulted the relevant legal materials. If you have half a brain they will love you but I imagine the more senior you get the more this may work against you.

Give yourself the respect you deserve. Go to Biglaw. Otherwise you will only ever be a big fish in a small pond. And attaining partnership status at Big 4 won't even begin to undo all the emotional scars and trauma you will have undoubtedly accumulated.

What is with all these comments saying "Don't do BIG4, go to BIGLAW"

WTF, if people had that option, they would have done it already. Nobody chooses between BIGLAW v. BIG4 after graduating law school.

It's BIG4 v. some shit legal job

6:39 is exactly right...most attorneys that find themselves at accounting firms did not make that choice in the face of abundant biglaw opportunities.

One thing the Big 4 does offer is at least a chance to do interesting, business-transactional work for large corporate clients.

I myself, for example, attended an upper tier 2 (top 60) law school and was oblivious to just how pedigree and grade sensitive the legal profession would be (I had no family or friends that were lawyers). So I entered law school, thinking my undergrad pedigree/performance, stellar pre-law work experience, and JD from a somewhat respectable law school would thrust me into a mid to large law firm doing corporate work.

I did alright in law school, but not well enough, and found that the only job options I had were at 30 attorney firms doing litigation (I knew going into law school that I did not want to litigate).

So here I am, at a Big 4 accounting firm doing tax consulting work (never touched compliance). It was the best option available to me given my goals, and, keeping that in perspective, I'm ok with it given the reasonable hours and ok pay. That's not to say, however, that I would not jump on the opportunity to go to a "large" law firm (over 100 attorneys) and do corporate work...

These topics have all been hashed out on the taxtalent.com career forum. I would tell the "rising student" to simply review the threads on that forum.

The $100K is about right for several years of experience.

Also, accounting firms do not do any legal work. Thus, if he were to ask his supervisors at the accounting firm for legal work, they would not be able to give it to him. He could do tax research and some tax planning, which gets closer to using his legal education. Again, this has already been addressed in great detail on the other site.

"What's the difference between legal work at an accounting firm and legal work at the tax department of a law firm?"

Accounting firms don't do legal work. They do not practice law. The work may be similar to what is done in the tax department in Big Law but for the most part, you are a tax accountant.

Over the last 20 or so years, accounting firms have acquired a larger and larger share of the market for tax law services (That's right, I said tax LAW). The problem is that practicing tax law requires people who, well..know law. And so these professional services firms that are historically strucutred for accountants are forced to hire lawyers and call them things like "consultants." If you want a high level explanation for all the rancor that has been let loose by this seemingly innocent posting, it's simply because accounting firms are not structured for attorneys but they need them to provide the tax law services that have proven to be so profitable, and because their are are only four of them now, they can easily agree to fix JD starting salaries (i.e., no competition like that among the law firms).

So if you want to be a tax lawyer, you must seriously consider B4 (as much of a mess as it is...see postings above) because chances are the law firm job you would have gotten 20 years ago has now shifted to an accounting firm. My advice...if you know you're an attorney in practice, be very wary of an employer that requires you to call yourself something else. Chances are, it serves them far better than it serves you.

Sorry, but you're not an accountant if you have just a JD. You're just some consultant working for the Big 4.

The Big 4 are such huge worlds you cannot generalize about any of it. If you work for the national office of a Big 4 firm, you will work with and for some of the best tax lawyers in the world. If you join the tax group of a small city, well. If you join a quality specialty (mergers & acg., international tax, benefits, controversy) group in a major market it can be great or it can such, alot of it depends on how resourceful the person is.

I understand the perception of Big 4 as "McDonald's" and "bottom feeders", however I think you also want to be careful about exaggerating the stature, relative reputation, and work quality at most major law firms. The work in a Big 4 national office is copmparable or better than the tax work done at most major law firms. Practice office work can also be good, if you hit right group in a big market.

I am leaving a Big 4 to go to law school this year (though they don't know it just yet). I think it's an absolutely worthless venture to pursue Big 4 work with a JD, unless you like getting paid $70,000-$100,000 to work 70 hour weeks doing miserably boring work.

The only lawyers I have known at the Big 4 that worked 70 hour weeks were making decent money and working on interesting matters, FWIW. The people that seem to get screwed generally tend to be JDs that are hired through the normal recruiting channels straight from law school into compliance groups.

If you're making b/w 70-100 at a Big 4 and, I assume, are pretty young, I'd think real hard about jumping to law school unless it is an Ivy or equivalent, at least.

I'd think real hard about jumping to law school from a 70-100 a year Big 4 job, unless its to an Ivy or equivalent, at the least.

KPMG - Audit Associate before law school - 2 years. Masters of Accountancy.

uggghhhhh... I hated that place. Much happier now in smaller town for AmJ100+ firm doing legal work.

"Accounting firms don't do legal work. They do not practice law. The work may be similar to what is done in the tax department in Big Law but for the most part,"

This seems to be double talk... it's different but the same? I realize attorneys have big egos and they never want to admit that other people can do their job, but what is the reality here? There seems to be a lot of venting going on here. Working for Big Law is a pain for some people, because of quality of life issues. Are there intangibles that make working for the Big Four better (i.e. a partner not calling you on a Saturday morning to do discovery)?

How does SOX work into this? Did SOX and its increased fiduciary duties change the landscape for accounting firms? Is this the reason accounting firms are looking for attorneys/JDs?

I agree with 4:08 above.

I'd think really hard before jumping ship, unless you go to a top tier school and go big law. Anything outside of big law, you will be making the same money, but have school loans to pay back.

Additionally, businesses that hire big law are becoming reluctant to pay first year associates that are paid $160K/year only to document review. Expect a market shift in the next few years where law firms hire fewer first year associates and contract out a lot of functions to hired guns. More equity for the partners.

RE: 4:08... Big 4 --> T10

RE: 4:08... going from a Big 4 to a Top 10.

I never respond to these threads, but I couldn't resist...

On 6/17, 5:00 PM comments about David Garlock: "... but ask him a real question about a real life transaction and he won't know..."

I recently had the privilege of working on a deal with David, and not only does he know real life transactions but he is extremely nice! People contributing to these threads should do their best to limit themselves to their first hand knowledge.

Actually, accountants do provide legal advice (i.e. tax advice) and are statutorily authorized to do so.

9:45-- Generally, most state statutes define the practice of law as not including tax advice. That is the statutory authorization allowing accountants to provide tax advice without it being the unauthorized practice of law. So if you want to be technical, no it is not legal advice.

BIG 4 sucks ... no self-respecting lawyer would go there... why throw your career down the toilet?

BigLaw Sucks... why would anyone with ethics and morality go there?

I started working for EY last year as a first- year tax staff ("Staff I") with a JD. I started with $74k, reimbursed bar expenses, and $6k end-of the year bonus. I usually leave work at 5:30. Some of the work is mundane but not more so than at other places, I'd say. I do a lot of memo-writing. I haven't noticed anyone hating me for being a lawyer or trying to put me down. That might be because I don't shove my law diploma in people's faces as many young lawyers do. It's just a degree.

My other offer was from a mid-size law firm at $65K but requiring 1800 billable hours. I worked part-time during all three years of law school (to afford it) and made it to a 3.25 GPA which obviously doesn't cut it for most big law firms. But I don't regret going to EY, at least not in my first year. I think in a couple of years, I will be shooting for the $100K which is a suitable salary for my demands and with working 40-45 hours a week.

Nobody has pressured me to get a CPA but they did insist that I pass the bar exam in one state even though they gave me no bonus for passing it. At this point I think that my JD from a top 20 school is enough and there is also no pressure for me to get an LLM in tax. I can learn more on the job than with the LLM.

Generally, people wear suits to work, including the secretaries. I get along with the partner I work with very well though I have heard rumors that other partners may not be so easy to get along with.
I wouldn't say that we don't do legal work: we do, but it's just tax law.

I understand people's frustration with making less money at BIG4 especially when you have loans to pay off as most of us do. What I like about BIG4, though, is that, frankly, BIG4 people are not as crazy competitive and arrogant pricks as some lawyers are.So I would say: if money and prestige is your thing and your stomach sinks when you get "orders" from a "mere accountant," BIG4 really isn't for you.

But, if for some reason you like tax law and you want a well-paid 9-5 job with possibility of making six figures after 4 years or so and you are able to work with people from different backgrounds, you may want to consider a job like mine. I have calculated that, at working 40 hours a week, I make about $36 an hour at EY while some of my friends working at Ropes & Gray put in 70 hours a week and when you put their hours against their salary, it ends up about $42 per hour. So, yes, there is a difference in the pay even if you have a better work-life balance. It's worth it if you like the people you work with and what you do and in that respect, I was lucky but I do know people who hate their co-workers and managers and were never into this kind of work to begin with so they may wish to try a mid-size law-firm.

Thanks 1:28. This is the most helpful comment of the thread.

How did you get into E&Y? Is the process similar to applying and interviewing w/ legal firms? Is is a hard requirement that you have an accounting bachelor degree?

Hi, "12:56," I had a phone interview with an HR over the phone and then met with a partner in person. My undegrad major was history. Minor in Spanish. Nothing to do with tax or accounting. Also, I did not take many tax classes in law school. I guess what helped was having good, but not stellar grades from a top 20 school.

The interviewing process is much nicer than with big firms. I have interviewed with some of those, too, and I always felt like there was no transparency whatsoever and most of the interviewers were very fake. Like, you asked them how many billable hours they did per year, and they give you a number that just doesn't correspond with reality. They lie to you without even blinking.

At EY, they told me that I would mostly write memos and also have to do some less intellectual work, like helping with returns at crunch-time. So far it has been the case and a couple of my classmates who also took jobs at EY feel the same way.

So, yes, you have interviews, but you engage in less small talk then with big firms; EY interviewers mostly want to see how and why you became interested in tax. For me it was a previous internship experience, not school exposure. They look for moderately high grades, in the B+ range, and enthusiasm. You don't get obsolete questions like "How do you like law school?" but they also don't pry by asking stuff like "Who else are you interviewing with?". And, no, they did not ask me where I see myself in 10 years, thank God, because I am so sick of that question ;-)

So, yeah, interviewing with EY is just not a stressful experience at all and that's a reflection of the work environment which is just less intense than at law firms. Of course, you get paid less, like we all pointed out before.

I am a firm believer that firms, both legal and accounting, pick you based on 2 things:

1. Grades
2. Whether they can relate to you as a human being on a personal level where by "relate" I mean that they can talk to you about points of mutual interest and feel at ease.

The first one, grades, is an objective criteria. As for the second, it is subjective, but it becomes very obvious when you and the interviewer have nothing in common and they just don't see you "fitting in." EY is a fairly diverse place in terms of employee background (ethnic, regional , cultural, or educational and professional) compared to many other companies so it's easier to deal with that second component as well as with the first.

I've worked at two strong regional firms (120-160 lawyers), a Big 4 in two different cities, the IRS Chief Counsel, and am currently in-house at a Fortune 100 type corporation. JD from top 45 school, no LL.M. Here is what I've seen/suggest:

1. Specialize as soon as possible.

2. Having the IRS Chief Counsel, a Tax Court Clerkship, or DOJ Tax Division on your resume is very good. Clients are impressed if you worked for the IRS.

3. You will learn more faster working at a law firm than Big 4. This is possibly because you will be working about 20 hours more per week. You will learn more at the IRS because the more senior lawyers don't have do business generation or bill 2000 hours.

4. You can move from Big 4 to mid-size firms. I've seen it happen at least 15 times.

5. A tax LL.M will not hide bad JD grades.

6. In house is better than Big 4 or law firms, and pays better than IRS.

7. Be ready to move if you go Big 4 and reach the manager level or above. Also be ready to travel on short notice.

8. Big 4 salaries have not kept up with the recent surge in Big Law salaries. Big 4 salaries are similar to regional law firms, or perhaps slightly less. However, Big 4 will pay to get good laterals.

9. Big 4 partners in the specialty practices are well rewarded, but you must generate a huge amount of revenue.

10. No CPA required at my Big 4, just pass bar and be billable.

11. Cubes.

12. More client lunches at Big 4. Ditto more golf shirts given out. (I've now donated my Big 4 golf shirts to charity. It makes me feel good knowing that someone somewhere in a third-world country is wearing a "Rev-It Up 2001" logo shirt.)

13. If you cannot get into either Big 4 or Big/Midsize Law, try to get into something like State and Local taxes at the state government level or with a state tax court judicial clerkship. SALT seems to be pretty hot, but overlooked since most law schools don't teach it.

14. If you specialize and are billable, you will not be doing busy season tax returns, etc.

15. Try to get client contact as soon as possible, and as often as possible. Watch how the better managers or senior managers handle clients.

16. If you go Big 4, your writing skills will probably not be comparable to your classmates who go Big Law or Mid-Size Law. They will simply write more, with more editing and feedback from their bosses.

17. National Tax in the Big 4 is just as good as any D.C. law firm's tax group.

Thanks 1:55 and 11:24. This is a plethora of information.

D&T National has no cubes-- they have their own offices (though interior until you're a director or partner) and all of the partners are former BigLaw partners who are leaders in their fields. No drop in quality of work or of colleagues (most are T20 law grads and very accomplished). No doing tax returns. The pay is not the same as BigLaw, but most senior managers on up are making over $200k.

>

Doesn't a state practice of law statute have to exclude tax advice because under federal statute CPAs and enrolled agents can practice before the IRS and Tax Ct. ?

Most tax law work involves federal tax rules so states have no right to regulate it anyway. It's a just a totally separate area, almost like maritime law ;-) However, very few states, like Connecticut, do include tax law on the state bar exam. Most don't...

States certainly regulate the practice of "federal" legal practice such as bankruptcy, antitrust, etc etc, right? I mean you can't practice as an attorney in state X without having passed its bar, even if the practice is solely confined to such federally preempted areas,

States certainly regulate the practice of "federal" legal practice such as bankruptcy, antitrust, etc etc, right? I mean you can't practice as an attorney in state X without having passed its bar, even if the practice is solely confined to such federally preempted areas,

You still have to pass the bar if you are working as a tax attorney though other tax professionals can also give advice.

If you hate yourself... go sit in a cube for 4-5 years, work in an"Office Space" enviornment, get paid like a secretary at BIGLAW, don't learn anything, don't learn to write like a lawyer and throw your JD diploma down the toilet.... AKA, join BIG 4

After 5 years in Big4 I surely don't feel like I have thrown anything down the toilet and I intend to stay. A number of people said in the posts above that there are clearly good thins about the big4 environment and that the work varies a lot from group to group so it is hard to generalize.

If BigLaw is so awesome, why do 70% or so of the associates leave after the second year....especially women associates. I read a lot of bitterness in the 11:17 am post.

11:17, if you don't work for Big4, fine, but why insult other people? Or is it that you work for some law firm that makes you bill 2200 hours a year, hate your co-workers and just be mean to everyone?

Hi,I am a rising 3L from a top 20 Law looking to work in Big4 or for the IRS. My GPA is 3.28, undergraduate GPA 3.6, from Dartmouth College but major not related to tax: philosophy .

Do you have any tips for me for getting interviews. I am now in the process of resume submission to most places. I am also worried that, although I have all A's, B's and B+ as grades, mostly B+, I did get a C+ in one of my tax classes because I was feeling very sick that day with strep throat. Unfortunate, but true :(

Thank you for any advice.

To all lawyers on this site...what's with this constant need for "respect" and "adulation" of everyone around you just becuase you did a law degree. Who cares! Being a lawyer is nothing special. It's amazing how little self esteem you all have.

To all lawyers on this site...what's with this constant need for "respect" and "adulation" of everyone around you just because you did a law degree. Who cares! Being a lawyer is nothing special. It's amazing how little self esteem you all have.

To all lawyers on this site...what's with this constant need for "respect" and "adulation" of everyone around you just because you did a law degree. Who cares! Being a lawyer is nothing special. It's amazing how little self esteem you all have.

You "did" a law degree? Hm, I'm worried about what that might mean. LOL!

I'm an attorney at a Big Four accounting firm in the southwest. With two years of experience, an LLM and Master of Accountancy, my base compensation is 101K. With bonuses, my total compensation should be 112K-116K this year. Ernst and Young and Pricewaterhouse Coopers pay much higher salaries than KPMG and Deloitte because at EY and PWC, the lawyers are generally doing the same things as their counterparts at law firms. I work about 50 hours per week, and I rarely work weekends. Usually, if I am working on a weekend it is because I wasn't very diligent in finishing my projects during the week. A Big Four accounting firm is not a bad way to go. Although lateraling to a Big Law firm is rare, lateraling to a small law firm and then moving to a Big Law firm is not rare.

Interesting comments regarding the nature of people's job experience and duties at the big four accounting firms. The "bs" nature of some of the job duties is probably more apparent to someone with an advanced degree and may be why these accounting firms are currently facing unpaid overtime lawsuits on a class action basis. For example, see www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_40/b4052004.htm (stating "If someone with an accounting degree is exercising his judgment as a CPA, the professional exemption [from overtime law and regulations] applies. But a worker who simply gathers audit data and enters it in a spreadsheet can't--licensed or not--be classified as a professional. Litigation pending against Ernst & Young makes overtime claims on behalf of E&Y [salaried] staff [who were paid a flat salary], including some with professional degrees.") and www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_40/b4052001.htm (article about these unpaid overtime lawsuits and lead attorney who has brought suit against EY).

For example of these pending lawsuits, see the following:

Ernst & Young (www.eylawsuit.com and www.big4lawsuit.com)
Deloitte & Touche (www.dtlawsuit.com)
PricewaterhouseCoopers (www.big4overtimecases.com)

I worked at big 4 for 4 years and at Big Law for 8 years... those of you who think the work is the same are just fooling yourselves... you will never learn to be a decent lawyer in Big 4, you will learn other skills... just not legal skills. If you want to be a lawyer in the traditional sense, don't go to BIG 4.

4:40, there is no doubt that there are many who are fooling themselves. Namely, are the big 4 JDs willing to admit that the work they are performing at the Big 4 is NOT the same?

In addition, are some of these big 4 JDs willing to concede that the work they are doing make them entitled to be paid overtime, notwithstanding the fact they are paid a fixed salary? Though the big 4 accounting firms are being hit with pending unpaid wage-hour overtime class action lawsuits, the unwillingness of big 4 JDs to come to terms regarding their job duties may well prevent them from realizing that are not being properly paid overtime. According to the October 1, 2007 BusinessWeek cover story Wage Wars, "While violations appear widespread, employees themselves rarely think to make wage and hour claims. Instead, they usually have it suggested to them by lawyers. 'Ninety-five percent of our wage and hour cases are a result of someone coming to us complaining about something else,' says Thomas. 'I can't tell you how many people have come into our office with employment disputes that are meritless and would be thrown out of court and walk out with an FLSA [Fair Labor Standards Act] claim.'"

The issue in these pending big 4 unpaid overtime lawsuits is what actual job duties were performed. The issue is not whether someone has a JD, LLM, or any other professional degree(s) or whether someone's salary was "high." Futhermore, the issue is not what someone could have performed (as per some fancy job description).

Of course, by stepping forward into these existing unpaid overtime lawsuits or initiating new ones, these JDs would have to admit publicly that the work they were performing was not of an exempt nature.

Bottom line.

You guys are all bashing a very respectable position. Big 4 isn't going to hire someone in the bottom half of their law class. Heck, they probably would have a hard time hiring someone in the top 30 percent.

Big Law is going to look at top 5 percent and top 10 percent. Everyone is not going to get Big Law. To thos who get it...Congratulations.

But why all the hate towards Big 4? It's a completely respectable position to take out of law school. Imagine all of the poor souls who don't graduate top of their class? What type of position will they get? They aren't stupid (they made it to law school after all)...but they simply can't compete with the rest. Yet you elitest come here and bash a pretty decent post law school career?

The average Multi-state tax hourly week at a big 4 is 48 hours. During September/October, March/April you very well could be working 70 hour weeks...it still averages at 48 hours. Look it up anywhere.

Big law averages 80 to 100 hours (correct me if i'm wrong).

I got my CPA during summers of law clerking. I recently just started working for a big 4. I also ranked top 30 percent at a T2. (not great to some of your standards...but i'm still proud). I was offered 85 k a year pay (Chicago office), I get free parking and gas to work, get half my cellphone bill paid, my barbri was paid for etc. I'm happy with what I have. If I stick it out and make partner...I'll make about 550 a year. WIth an average of 48 hour weeks...that doesn't seem too bad.

So an average of 80 to 100 hours for 150k of pay...or 48 hours for 85k of pay?

If I stick it out for 15 years I'll be making 550 a year, I'll have a good pension and have plenty of family time.

I see nothing wrong here.

12:35, you make a good point. But it goes to show you that a good deal of the people who go to law school are arrogant and think they're entitled to top pay, great hours, prestige, guaranteed promotions, etc. Part of it is the fault of law schools for misleading prospective applicants, but part of it is the culture of entitlement that pervades our society--especially the people who are privileged enough to be able to get into law school. I'm not saying all law school grads are like this, but obviously many are.

By the way, good comment about the unpaid overtime suits (I think I know the person who posted that comment). To the extent that these positions at accounting firms are merely paper-pushing disguised as something more substantive, these companies might be held liable for a good deal of overtime pay. If you take one of these jobs, the key is to know your rights. You don't want to be doing the work of a non-exempt employee (i.e. paper-pushing) but be treated as exempt (thus not receiving overtime pay).

I think the BusinessWeek article (www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_40/b4052001.htm) aptly sums up the big picture by quoting Mark Thierman, the lead attorney of the current pending unpaid overtime lawsuit against Ernst & Young (E&Y) in California (www.eylawsuit.com):

"[Thierman's] focus is on what they actually do, not on their job titles, income, or academic degrees. 'You don't have to be stupid to get overtime,' Thierman says. 'In fact you're stupid if you don't get overtime.'"

If one is going to be, say, doing the work grunt work at the big accounting four accounting firm, one might as well be paid overtime.

It sounds like entering a M&A or international tax group is the most lucrative job opportunity for a J.D. entering a BIG4 firm. What academic credentials are necessary to obtain this type of position? Is it necessary to have attended a top 20 law school? Does a JD graduating in top 10% from a top 100 school have a chance?

9:42 pm, Don't let the "label" of M&A or international tax fool you. The only difference among the various groups is that someone in M&A (or international tax) is pushing papers (or entering data or creating binders or retrieving tax regulations or whatever) regarding M&A (or international tax), while another person in federal domestic tax is pushing papers (or entering data or creating binders or retrieving tax regulations whatever) regarding federal domestic tax.

If you prefer to be pushing papers regarding M&A or international tax, by all means apply to those groups since they probably pay slightly more, but, if you are looking to develop transferable legal skills (and not just looking to earn slightly more), be aware that grunt work is grunt work (i.e. non-substantive work is non-substantive work no matter what the underlying subject matter is). Also these firms may honestly regard electronically retrieving tax statutes/regulations as "research." Also be aware that, although JDs are typically paid slightly more than their non-JD counterparts in M&A and international tax, JDs and non-JD's are still doing the same work, thus creating resentment over differential in pay.

Hopefully, the federal court judges and their law clerks, some of whom (as many lawyers tend to be) probably may be averse to numbers or tax or anything financial related, in these unpaid overtime lawsuits are able to examine the actual duties of these jobs, notwithstanding one's salary level, educational, job title, glorified job description on paper, etc.

The work at a big accounting firm is probably not that much different than that of a paralegal at a big law firm. Would others tend to agree or disagree?

I have to say I work for a Big 4 in the M&A tax practice and I actually do quite a bit of research (not just pulling electronic copies of statutes) and analysis applying case precendent and codified law to my clients' facts. If I remember correctly it seems like that was a big part of what they teach us in law school. I'll also point out that on our engagements we work closely with the "real lawyers" and I find that we do much the same work.

As an entry level to the M&A group with a JD I started at 6 figures and received not only a signing bonus but a bonus for passing the bar. Note that the bar bonus was in addition to being fully reimbursed for the cost of the exam and the bar review course. I received a raise of close to 10% last year. I generally find I work 50-60 hours a week when busy. M&A people are not subject to the traditional busy season, so that means I do not experience months where I work 70-80 hours a week.

The most important thing is that I enjoy the work that I do and I get paid quite well for doing it. Big 4 M&A work can be very interesting and one can make good use of his or her legal education by choosing this career path.

I have to say I work for a Big 4 in the M&A tax practice and I actually do quite a bit of research (not just pulling electronic copies of statutes) and analysis applying case precendent and codified law to my clients' facts. If I remember correctly it seems like that was a big part of what they teach us in law school. I'll also point out that on our engagements we work closely with the "real lawyers" and I find that we do much the same work.

As an entry level to the M&A group with a JD I started at 6 figures and received not only a signing bonus but a bonus for passing the bar. Note that the bar bonus was in addition to being fully reimbursed for the cost of the exam and the bar review course. I received a raise of close to 10% last year. I generally find I work 50-60 hours a week when busy. M&A people are not subject to the traditional busy season, so that means I do not experience months where I work 70-80 hours a week.

The most important thing is that I enjoy the work that I do and I get paid quite well for doing it. Big 4 M&A work can be very interesting and one can make good use of his or her legal education by choosing this career path.

I have to say I work for a Big 4 in the M&A tax practice and I actually do quite a bit of research (not just pulling electronic copies of statutes) and analysis applying case precendent and codified law to my clients' facts. If I remember correctly it seems like that was a big part of what they teach us in law school. I'll also point out that on our engagements we work closely with the "real lawyers" and I find that we do much the same work.

As an entry level to the M&A group with a JD I started at 6 figures and received not only a signing bonus but a bonus for passing the bar. Note that the bar bonus was in addition to being fully reimbursed for the cost of the exam and the bar review course. I received a raise of close to 10% last year. I generally find I work 50-60 hours a week when busy. M&A people are not subject to the traditional busy season, so that means I do not experience months where I work 70-80 hours a week.

The most important thing is that I enjoy the work that I do and I get paid quite well for doing it. Big 4 M&A work can be very interesting and one can make good use of his or her legal education by choosing this career path.

how difficult is it to lateral from biglaw to big4's national offices or groups that do interesting tax work? how is the turnover or attrition rate at big4's national office? is it like biglaw where people leave after 2-3 years or it's more stable? do they kick people out when there is no chance for partnership?

To 6:06 pm, do you work in the "nerve center" of your M&A group at your Big4? By "nerve center," do you work in the national offices, such as New York City or Washington, of your Big4? Or are you working in the "field offices?" It appears that more of the challegning work is found in the "nerve center" offfices, whereas most of the muscles work is found in "field offices."

The judge in the PwC unpaid overtime case ruled on summary judgment that certain attest Associates working in California do not qualify for the professional exemption and, therefore, are entitled to overtime. (See www.kcrlegal.com/PwC-MSJ-Order.pdf for order.)

Does the judge's dicta in footnote 4 in page 15 of the order in which he stated "I note in passing, without intending to suggest resolution of other issues, that at least arguably the work engaged in by the class members is more like the work of paralegals than law clerks" hit home for many of you? Would people tend to agree or disagree with that statement?

In addition to PwC, Ernst & Young (www.eylawsuit.com or www.big4lawsuit.com), Deloitte (www.dtlawsuit.com), and KPMG are all currently facing pending unpaid overtime lawsuits in California.

I work in NYC so my answers may be different than others on here but attorneys who go to the Big4 with their LLM will start at $110K (in NYC). In addition, you would come in as a senior associate and should only go to SALT (state and local tax), International Tax and the M&A group. Those three groups are very low on compliance, high on reading, writing and research. You will make less in a compliance group (such as federal tax) and will do more accounting work. I've been at it for 4 years and I am currently making $160K (yes I am a manager now). Good luck

I work in NYC so my answers may be different than others on here but attorneys who go to the Big4 with their LLM will start at $110K (in NYC). In addition, you would come in as a senior associate and should only go to SALT (state and local tax), International Tax and the M&A group. Those three groups are very low on compliance, high on reading, writing and research. You will make less in a compliance group (such as federal tax) and will do more accounting work. I've been at it for 4 years and I am currently making $160K (yes I am a manager now). Good luck