What happens if you fail to make your hours?

Is litigation usually stable? I'm going to a T10 in the fall and I want to be a litigator.

12:38 - You could get your bonus reduced. If your hours are really low, you might be asked to leave.

That's a good question. What happens if you don't make hours? Do you get a bad evaluation?

Some NYC transactional associates are complaining about 5 hour months. How is it possible to do this more than once without getting fired? Are firms so worried about a perception of layoffs that they insist on waiting until review time (even though Lat has exposed that particular brand of subterfuge)?

12:38- litigation stability is a function of where you are. I'm in Texas and litigation is very slow (and has been for years) at many shops around town. Mine is actually very busy and thriving. Still, tort reform killed many practices at the big firms and commercial is only now beginning to pick up, while IP litigation remains very strong due to the Eastern District of Texas.

I understand other states, like California, have never slowed down in litigation.

12:48 - Our transactional practice is a bit overstaffed right now (particularly real estate), but the firm knows that in a year or so, the markets will pick back up, and they don't want to be understaffed. Firms (the good ones) don't hire associates because of a hiccup in the market, or else they'll get killed when things heat back up.

That makes me feel much better. I'm not sure what type of litigation I want to pursue; I only know that I want to get paid for writing briefs.

Any advice for an aspiring pre-law litigator? Anything I should do in school?

Hahaha. Charlotte is the definition of TTT. We should have known the bubble was about to pop there when they started raising (some) associate salaries there to $160k. If one of the banks gets acquired (see rumors on CNBC last week), say goodbye to the entire legal market in that town. Laughable.

12:57- I'm not sure you want to get advice from this board. But, the basic advice would be obvious, I think: get the best possible grades you can, do law review and/or moot court, and then clerk after you graduate. Clerkship may be especially important as writing briefs usually means special issues and appeals practice, for which a clerkship is often preferred.

When I get slow at work, I just comment on people's clothing in the office, put my feet up, watch Jeopardy, do a couple cross-words, listen to the newest Huey Lewis and the news tape, and plan lunches with Cliff Huxtable. Sometimes I use the time to return some videotapes. No big deal.

The numbers seem in line with everyone's expectations. Bankruptcy is looking for people while real estate is not.

Excellent survey Lat. Please do this regularly, perhaps once every three months.

Why shouldn't I solicit advice from this board?

I agree with 1:01. As much as I enjoy the fluff pieces, this is the reporting which keeps me coming back.

1:04 - My advice: While you are in school, learn the difference between "which" and "that."

". . . this is the reporting THAT keeps me coming back."

Asstard.

1:11: can you link me to a page which (or that) explains the difference?

I admit that my grammar isn't immaculate.

1:12- the easiest way to remember what to do is that "which" should always come after a comma when describing the previous statement, and "that" does not come after a comma. You would not put "which" after a comma if it were used as a question such as "which way to the store?" But, if you're using it as a way of describing the previous statement, it should be set off as its own clause.

Is there some reason you think people would pay you to write grammatically inaccurate briefs?

1:16: I found a page that explains the difference between essential and nonessential clauses. I think I understand my mistake now.

Last week, we had another pedantic post about the PoGo associates. Perhaps this forum is turning into a grammatical free-for-all. ;)

Try mentally adding "by they way" after any "which". If the sentence doesn't work, you want a "that".

This is a great grammar site:
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/t.html#that

1:19: you're right. Overall, I think that I'm a capable writer, but, on occasion, I lose sight of minor grammatical points.

In my defense, I've read some lawyerly writing that was absolutely abysmal from a grammatical (and stylistic) perspective.

1:20- anything involving lawyers can turn pedantic. Also, anything involving appellate attorneys will turn into a grammar free-for-all. I once sat in a meeting (with a former SCOTUS clerk) and heard a discussion about the proper placement of "only" in a sentence to ensure it was modifying the right word or claus.

12:38 good point. The very busiest associates probably arent on ATL that much. Although haveing SOME work keeps one in front of a computer screen all day.

I do patent lit, and was able to get several BigLaw offers this winter no problem, though the group I was leaving was slow. GEneral lit I think is a little harder now.

A clause beginning with "which" has the purpose of adding description to something already identifiable. "That" should be used to introduce a clause that is necessary to identify the thing.

The brown dog, which lives down the street, .... (we knew which brown dog we were talking about even without knowledge of it living down the street --> we use "which" because it adds unnecessary description)

The brown dog that lives down the street . ... (there are a bunch of brown dogs so we needed further description to know which brown dog we were talking about)

Good luck with your writing Mr. Litigator. Hope you figure out English before you get to your V10, douchetard.

1:25 -

I am a grammarian. The single biggest problem I routinely see in writing is misplacement of the word "only." Its placement, in many cases, gives the sentence its meaning and denies the sentence other meanings.

I hate you.

1:31- I don't disagree with your point and I routinely move the placement of the word "only" when editing. However, how many people outside of appellate writers would ever take grammar so seriously as to note (and discuss) that particular point of grammar? Very few, and even fewer attorneys based upon what you and I see.

"Why shouldn't I solicit advice from this board?"

Because you are asking that question. Any observer of these boards quickly realizes that they are populated by often very unhelpful people. What genuine advice there is must be gleaned from a tenfold offering of non sequiturs, belligerence, body humor, cynicism, and misinformation. For example, with regard to the polling numbers offered above, I guarantee that a non-insignificant portion of respondents were either non-lawyers or supplied purposefully wrong data.

1:35, back this up -- "I guarantee that a non-insignificant portion of respondents were either non-lawyers or supplied purposefully wrong data."

1:31: why the anger and hostility?

1:38: 1:35's "backup" is common sense, which would dictate that any survey results here should be taken with a grain of salt. Do you really think the Cravath wannabes sitting in Torts class or counting the days until law school orientation refrain from answering a question here simply because they don't actually know what they're talking about?

1:35: do you know of a better forum? Autoadmit is too bloodthirsty and flame-orientated for my tastes. I've been looking for a place that's populated by lawyers.

I think people in Dallas are lying. From what I hear in Houston, the Dallas market is not doing well at all, but the numbers reported don't indicate that.

Guys in my high school used to listen to Huey Lewis tapes and plan lunches with Cliff Huxtable when they were slow all the time, it was no big deal.

-80's FRAT STUD

To 12:57(2) - So that is why everyone keeps moving here and why we are one of the fastest growing cities in the nation. Stay in Jersey, Please don't move here!!

There's a real kitty. Sorry, mouse. Better luck in the sports-related post.

1:54, the only good advice for pre-law students considering law school is this:

Get good grades in college and do well on the LSAT. Attend the best law school that accepts you. If you don't get into one of the top 50 law schools AND you don't receive a significant scholarship of more than half your tuition, you shouldn't go to law school because you probably won't be able to repay your debts.

Banker: Do you like Myers Park Country Club?
Lawyer: It's OK.
Banker: The front nine is a little too new wave for my tastes, but when you cross the bunker to the 10th, I think the course really comes into its own, athletically and artistically. The whole back nine has a clear, crisp feeling, requiring a new sheen of consummate athleticism that really gives the afternoon a big boost. It's been compared to Quayle Hollow, but I think MPCC has a far more traditional, classic sense of camaraderie.
Lawyer: Hey Banker.
Banker: Yes, Lawyer?
Lawyer: Why are there copies of the Observer all over the place, a-are you looking for a new car? A little BMW lease or something?
Banker: No, Lawyer.
Lawyer: Is that a seersucker suit?
Banker: Yes it is! In '98, Charlotte released Ballantyne, their most classless and cookie-cutter club yet. I think the undisputed masterpiece, though, is the Charlotte City Club, a club so common-place, most people probably don't even know why they go there. But they should, because it's not just about the pleasures of conformity, and the importance of trends, it's also a personal statement about the city itself.

2:48: I'm going to a T10 next year. I want advice for an aspiring litigator who'll be attending a "good" school.

"Get good grades in college and do well on the LSAT. Attend the best law school that accepts you. If you don't get into one of the top 50 law schools AND you don't receive a significant scholarship of more than half your tuition, you shouldn't go to law school because you probably won't be able to repay your debts."

maybe not the ONLY good advice, but certainly worth heeding.

2:51, I think that went completely over my head.

How should you use "only" in a sentence?

"If you don't get into one of the top 50 law schools..."

I'd change the number 50 to 14 or 25 as a stretch. Don't only consider the debt, it's also three years of your life for naught.

I'd change the number to 10, or 20 with a substantial scholarship. Michigan, Virginia, and Penn place far better than GULC; let's not delude ourselves.

The irony of 2:51 exists on multiple levels. Charlotte country club-ridiculousness, and the banker-envy suffered by all lawyers there combined with an intimate knowledge of a certain movie mocking the 80s.

Banker envy in Charlotte. I can see that. But, I wonder if lawyers get kicked out of their tables at fine restaurants in Charlotte in favor of bankers, like lawyers in California lose their seats to those in the movie business.

Hahahaha. Fine restaurants in Charlotte.

I think the question answers itself!

Unless you call a nearly-unlimited cadre of chain restaurants fine. I'd gladly get kicked out of the capital grill anyday.

2:51 is the single best comment I've ever seen on this post.

A judge sitting in the Middle District of Florida is fond of pointing out that a misplaced only is a ticket to malpracticeville. He's right in that a misplaced only will change the meaning of a sentence. Often the change is inconsequential because the word the "only" modifies renders the sentence nonsensical and the writer's intentions is ascertainable, but in other instances the undereducated author states a dangerous proposition or drafts a deadly contractual provision. Moral: learn to use "only." Pay attention to the word it modifies.

I don't hate you, but I'm with 1:31.

3:33 - It's not quite that simple. Sure, for national placement, it matters, but true national placement is a stretch if you are outside of the T14 (probably T8) and the statistics bear that out.

Most law is very regional. That doesn't make going to no-name TTT's for full tuition a good idea, but for T50 schools and, to some extent, Tier 2 schools, you will still have very legitimate job prospects in the region of that school if you do well.

The caveat is, of course, is " are the names of the schools I got into actually good where I am planning to practice." If they aren't, or you have no idea/fall back position on where you want to practice if you don't get a national job, you absolutely should rethink it. The regionalism goes both ways; The University of Georgia or Alabama as examples, can't get arrested in the Midwest. The same goes for an Ohio State or a Wisconsin in the Southeast (unless you are originally from the "opposite" region and did undergrad there to prove it.).

3:33 - It's not quite that simple. Sure, for national placement, it matters, but true national placement is a stretch if you are outside of the T14 (probably T8) and the statistics bear that out.

Most law is very regional. That doesn't make going to no-name TTT's for full tuition a good idea, but for T50 schools and, to some extent, Tier 2 schools, you will still have very legitimate job prospects in the region of that school if you do well.

The caveat is, of course, is " are the names of the schools I got into actually good where I am planning to practice." If they aren't, or you have no idea/fall back position on where you want to practice if you don't get a national job, you absolutely should rethink it. The regionalism goes both ways; The University of Georgia or Alabama as examples, can't get arrested in the Midwest. The same goes for an Ohio State or a Wisconsin in the Southeast (unless you are originally from the "opposite" region and did undergrad there to prove it.).

3:33 - It's not quite that simple. Sure, for national placement, it matters, but true national placement is a stretch if you are outside of the T14 (probably T8) and the statistics bear that out.

Most law is very regional. That doesn't make going to no-name TTT's for full tuition a good idea, but for T50 schools and, to some extent, Tier 2 schools, you will still have very legitimate job prospects in the region of that school if you do well.

The caveat is, of course, is " are the names of the schools I got into actually good where I am planning to practice." If they aren't, or you have no idea/fall back position on where you want to practice if you don't get a national job, you absolutely should rethink it. The regionalism goes both ways; The University of Georgia or Alabama as examples, can't get arrested in the Midwest. The same goes for an Ohio State or a Wisconsin in the Southeast (unless you are originally from the "opposite" region and did undergrad there to prove it.).

3:33 - It's not quite that simple. Sure, for national placement, it matters, but true national placement is a stretch if you are outside of the T14 (probably T8) and the statistics bear that out.

Most law is very regional. That doesn't make going to no-name TTT's for full tuition a good idea, but for T50 schools and, to some extent, Tier 2 schools, you will still have very legitimate job prospects in the region of that school if you do well.

The caveat is, of course, is " are the names of the schools I got into actually good where I am planning to practice." If they aren't, or you have no idea/fall back position on where you want to practice if you don't get a national job, you absolutely should rethink it. The regionalism goes both ways; The University of Georgia or Alabama as examples, can't get arrested in the Midwest. The same goes for an Ohio State or a Wisconsin in the Southeast (unless you are originally from the "opposite" region and did undergrad there to prove it.).

I'm in my first year at a large firm. I'm in a litigation department and I've been busy working on one case all year, steadily making my hours. Last night I got an email from the Partner on the case informing me to hold off on my pending assignments because settlement negotiations have gotten serious. Consequently, I have no work. I don't want to bang on too many doors because there is some work none of us want. At the same time, I don't want to fall too far behind in my hours for the year. Any advice?

Note: All advice (i.e., genuine, funny, flaming) is welcome.

Bravo 2:51, bravo. Do you have that book on your desk? I reread it trying to work out if it was the Whitney, Phil or Huey section.

Regardless you nailed it.

Poor Charlotte. Wachovia to be bought, a high priced hooker with a big book of names, BofA building a large tower in Times Square, and the Bobcats! Hey, but at least we have Nascar Hall of Fame AND a Hooters uptown (soon).

I'm 2:51. I'm a big fan of the movie, not the book, and actually grew up in Charlotte. I used love the place, but it's gotten a little ridiculous for my taste -- which is why I decided not to practice there.

Maybe someday -- I do miss the golfing.

I practice here in Charlotte and personally love the firm I work at, and work I do (almost all of which is outside of NC). I am an outsider, but I see the things that you, 2:51, were popping at.

There are good firms here doing good things. When Wachovia gets eaten, then we will have the city back.

4:25

Whoa, mega duplicate post @ 3:33.

Someone should link that tornado funnel from one of the more recent school-ranking threads.

Basically, it's a bunch of garbage. There's nothing magical about the #22 school that guarantees you a job that will repay debt over the #31 school.

For that matter, you aren't basically guaranteed a NJ250 firm unless you are going to a T10 school.

FYI: Lat has a misplaced "only" in the Post Your Comments section.

You're right, Dr. Gonzo. Lat must be a real moron worthy of hating...even with that Yale law degree and having worked at Wachtell.

4:47: Did I call Lat a moron or suggest you should hate him?

In fact, I doubt Lat wrote the line. If I had to guess, it most likely came from the person who set the site up for him. Regardless, the subject of the misplaced "only," a pet peeve of mine, came up today.

Perhaps you just have a big crush on Lat and raise your hackles at any observation directed towards ATL.

Either way, you sure are aggressive. How's that working out for you?

"Bankruptcy & Restructuring - 52.38% - No! We need to hire people!"
Will this number remain steady (or grow) in the next two years? Any thoughts…?

-Bnkr Clerk (till '10)

How accurate could this survey be. I was too busy for the last week to even visit atl. while people at bloated firms have nothing else to do than correct each other grammar while they wait for the silent layoffs. Less than, fewer than. Who the fuck cares, I'm too busy doing 20 billion dollar deals...

4:25, don't forget the Billy Graham Library.

Is there still banker envy when they're getting laid off in droves?