first...why is it an option to check off that youre a part of the class of 2011? idiot 0Ls dont know anything.

In House = The Promised Land

Its a big pay cut. I work "in-house" and i find myself bored and longing for more money. The grass is ALWAYS greener...

Big pay cut from senior or mid level pay?

As someone who has worked in house and now works at a firm, the actual hours worked are not really different. What is different is the focus. In house you are task-oriented, whereas the billable hours recorded is the focus at a firm. The salary compression in house can be tough.

12:06: I'll be starting law school in the fall and many of my peers have significant paralegal experience. That entitles them an opinion.

@12:36

No 3rd party standing allowed.

P.S. Your modifier is dangling.

Pay cut to barely six figures. $110 - 120 to start if you are lucky (less in insurace). You go up, but at a rate of 3-7% depending on your reviews.

What modifier? I missed the preposition.

Some paralegals, for your information, might like to work in-house.

BUT, you only work 7.5 hrs and never weekends...

100k is too low for student loan re-payment.

Can we end the pictures of cats? Going to this website is like going to Aunt Mildred's house.

"100k is too low for student loan re-payment."

Tell me about it.

12:48 is exactly right re: pay. I work at a Fortune 100 - and you'll come in at 110K with 5-6 years of experience. And that really stinks with student loans. I love leaving at 6pm everyday, but keep in mind that there is a lot more travel . I think about returning to a firm every single day.

I'm borrowing ~100k for a T10 law school. It's going to be tough without the big firm lifestyle, especially since I want to purchase a house.

Aside from making partner, is there a way to make great money (160k+) after an associate stint?

Where is everyone? Are people sincerely using ATL's dining suggestions?

Lat, why don't you instead put up some info about this: WG + AG = WGWAG (white guys with asian girls) = the two most powerful, most intelligent demographic groups in law and biz...? Why are these two groups so much more successful than others, i.e. asian guys? Why do these two groups get along so well (is it because WGs have bigger dongs than asian guys?)?

By the way, I enjoyed hearing you on NPR today, Lat.

- King of WGWAG

Go to hell, 12:51, those cats are the funniest thing some people read all day.

1:35: can you explain why a cat picture with a deliberately misspelled caption is funny?

1:18 - you obviously dont know what WGWAG stands for.

people want to return to biglaw because it's *less* boring?? shit.

i need to find a new industry

12:55, so do i.

12:55, 12:48 here: so do i.

1:52, (12:48 here) yes you do. get out if you can. this profession is for those who's parents can pay for school. the rest of us find ourselves stuck in a loveless marraige to the law becuase we won't make enough money to pay off the loans doing anything else (see MSN's artcile on 26 AMAZING jobs [and how little they pay]).

I don't kow what I would be doing if not this, but I know that i would have been ok, since I only owed cornell $23K.

"a loveless marriage to the law"

Can't you find release in anything else, 2:01?

Not all in-house jobs are created equal. I'm in house and have been for about 1.5 years. My take on the comments above:

- Hours MUCH better. No weekends or holidays. Pretty much 9 to 5:30 or 6.
- Pay is a cut from elite level firms, but I still make plenty. Difference is that much more of my compensation comes from bonus, and my bonus is not at all tied to hours. All in, I'm probably where a 2nd or 3rd year billing around 2100 hours is making at a place like Kirkland in Chicago, if you factor in their bonus. For reference, I'm a 2002 grad from a top 20 school.
- Work is less "exciting," I guess. I don't really think about that much when I'm home building lego sets with my kid at 6:30pm.
- Job security is actually much better where I am. In response to the slow down, we're keeping more legal work in house. I suppose you could consider that as having more flexibility in our ability to create value for the company in a downturn.
- Did I mention I'm learning some business-speak? Fun!

Biggest difference is in stress level. No one here treats me like their bitch. I'm part of the team. Outside counsel are our grunts. When you're charging the rates you charge, expectations are incredibly high on the client end. Hear me now, believe me later.

12:55's comments about pay are inaccurate - there are plenty of in-house jobs that pay fairly well, though admittedly not amlaw 50 associate rates. I'm a 2000 in-house counsel, and I make north of $200K with bonus (options not included)

While not in-house, I made the jump from Biglaw/Biglaw spinoff to a big city government job, and want to echo a few of the comments above. Hours are about 9 to 6, the rare late night/weekend work are definitely the exception. The pay cut was big, but I'm still making good five figures, and with no law school debt, am doing ok. Definitely feel like I am part of a team, valued, and never experience the genuine emotional abuse that I suffered at the hands of partners (and clients on occasion).

I left law firm life, have never looked back, and a shiver literally goes down my spine when I think about how awful it was to be an associate (and, frankly, how miserable the partners were as well). To quote Rodney, "I feel like I just got paroled!"

1:41, what are you--a robot? Who thinks that having comedy dissected will help anyone understand it who doesn't already?

How are you not able to pay most (or even all) of your private loans off in 4-5 years? Even if you took like $100k in private loans, it seems easily doable.

2:35: I'll be in the 100k ballpark. Can you explain how I would re-pay them within five years?

Get your head out of the toilet, kitty.

Can anyone comment on what salaries for patent attorneys with 5-6 years of big firm experience are like? I've heard that the pay for patent folks is generally higher. Thanks.

2:35

If you pay Manhattan rent and NYC taxes as well as fund your 401k, and then have any sort of social life or discretionary spending on the side, you may not have much left over to pay your loans down. Some people manage it, but a lot of people just don't have much at the end of each month.

This of course is why I commute in from Jersey.

I am a 3rd yr in-house IP atty and make $140k before including profit sharing and benefits. I work 8-5:30 no weekends and paid vacation. Occasionally I have to travel to Europe for meetings, but I really can't complain about staying in central London on a corporate AMEX. Can't really complain about in-house.

2:53, three years ago people in Manhattan were doing fine on $125k a year, and they certainly had social lives and discretionary spending. Now, with the raise to $160k a year, that means an extra $14k of post-tax income each year simply by maintaining the same standard of living.

The only reason people can't pay back their loans within 4-5 years is due to their own inability to keep profligate spending and irresponsible actions under control.

To suggest that people making $160k a year can barely break even is to suggest that people making $125k a year (three years ago) had to incur more debt each year to manage at all. That was not the case.

What about Top Legal Talent? I assume we'd get paid more, but would we also be put on some sort of CEO-track? I really don't want to join a company that I'm not going to be able to run in 5-10 years. (T5-->V10)

2:26, you were probably a partner at a big firm or a 10th yr associate and now oversee your company's trans. work vs. a 5th year managing litigation and/or discovery.

2:59

1) I am pretty sure the cost of living has gone up in the last few years, though not by 14K

2) You are right, one can probably save about 1K (not counting 401k) a month. Maybe 1500 or 2K. that usually does not pay off 100-150K loans in 4 years, especially if at the same time one is sensitive to building up a stash of cash for rainy day, eventual down payment on a house, etc....

I would think that putting all of your savings into paying off the loans is not the best idea. You dont want to be a 5th year associate with no loans and not a penny to your name, trying to get some rainy day fund and home down payment money together quick before the wife is due

2:17 mentioned better job security in-house. I would have to disagree. The legal department is a cost center. This is a function that can be easily outsourced. If the company you work for encounters economic troubles - the legal department is going to face significant cuts. Essentially you have put all your eggs in 1 basket as opposed to a law firm where hopefully there is a diverse client base and as long as you are billing your hours you are a profit center.

My husband, from a second tier law school, went from a 50 person firm in the Midwest to an in-house position with a large corporation in the Southeast. He doesn't work weekends but he's at work 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. nineteen out of twenty days, i.e. I talk him into leaving earlier (6:00 p.m.) one Friday a month.

That said, the money, counting bonus, is much better and the work is much more challenging and interesting than his past position.

I hope I marry rich. ;)

i'm an associate in biglaw, and work alot with in-house attnys in ibanks and HFs. i still get lots of headhunter calls, but from my observations it seems that in-house legal doesn't get much respect from the biz side, they essentially are stuck in the same room as the crazy client, and their only real perk is to unload on outside counsel. are they really more valued and respected, or is that just superficial nice-to-your-face politics? legal views the biz as less intelligent, pushy, and arrogant while the biz side sees legal as work monkeys who make less money (so long as there aren't any layoffs). the first job cuts are always to the business side, though eventually it would reach the "cost centers" of legal if things get bad enough.

The people who are claiming $110k for in-house are BSers trying to influence the market, or got sold a bill of goods. I'm a 6th year and the calls I'm getting are between $160k + bonus and stock at the very bottom end to $250k at the top, and most often around $200k.

Perhaps things are different if you're at a mediocre firm or went to a mediocre school, but if you're a top school grad at a top firm, don't even talk to anyone at less than that.

3:24 here - basically i don't see any dream legal jobs unless you actually like the industry, can handle the stress, and have control over your ego.

One down side of being in-house is possible ethics issues with management. I was much less troubled by the less than honorable business practices of bigcorp as a corporate associate at biglaw, than I was as deputy g.c. at bigcorp.

@12:51. NO. Hooray for the cats! I think Justin should open the column up to submission for pics of ATL readers' pets.

3:25

Snob. Only 10% of all lawyers fall into your station in life. The $110-120 was an estimate for us lowly mortals.

this goes without saying, but lawyers are so freaking insecure that they have to disparage others to make themselves feel better. wading thru these crap comments to get any info can be so tedious.

I agree with 3:58. In-house pay varies from company to company. In-house gigs with brand name companies are highly-competitive, and contrary to what 3:25 wrote, the pay is not top of the scale. Lesser-known companies may need to pay more to recruit top talent.

Are there any areas of specialty that pay particularly well or particularly poorly? I hear people talk about how corporate people are constantly getting job offers in the high 200's and tax people are lucky to break six-figures. True?

Came from an AmLaw 50 firm. Took a significant ($50k +) pay cut to go in-house. But I still make over $180k. I've seen offers from about $150k to 180k for a senior associate.

The biggest difference is obviously the hours. Billing becomes such a part of your thinking as an associate, that you're always thinking about hours and making hours up. E.g., in a firm, I'd always think about working extra hours just before or just after a vacation to make up for the lost hours. Not anymore. I go on vacation, then come back to the 9-5 job.

The other difference is that you tell the partners what to do instead of the other way around :-). One thing I do is review bills sent by outside counsel and am shocked at how much they overbill us. Those of you clamoring for higher associate pay and bonuses should remember that your salary comes from clients. And clients are constantly trying to lower the bills.

Re: 2:53: Maybe people shouldn't pay Manhattan rent (for more than a closet; how often is a junior associate going to be there anyway) and otherwise live banker lifestyle.

People live in Manhattan on less than $160K. People were fine before the pay raise insanity. If someone is blowing through $6000+ net a month, with no car, they need to get their head screwed on straight.

And when you factor in bonus, it's not $6000, it's more like $8000 net a month.

People who live Ibanker lifestyle, dress like partners, keep big, swank apartments and own cars while having loans to pay off are M-O-R-O-N-S. Nevermind that most people don't last more than three years in the job in question, statistical fact.

You career is certainly not more secure at in-house job. Slow down in the economy means layoffs regardless and likely more chance at a corporation than a firm b/c you are a cost center. Also, if you get bought out... well, good luck b/c the first place an acquiring company looks is at redunancies like the counsel's office. who do think are getting canned to make up citicorp 50,000 layoffs the guys making money or costing money.

6:28

The question is not whether someone is blowing through 6000 a month. The question is, once you factor in 401k and saving for a down payment or a rainy day (layoff) fund, how much does a person really have to pay off loans with? And remember you are already using 1000/mo of that for your regularly scheduled student loan payments. So how much more will you have?

2500/mo rent

1500/mo bills/food/etc. (are you guys living on less? don't you buy food? Do you have other mouths, like a wife and child, to feed?)

1000/mo regularly scheduled student loan payments (at least that is what mine are, 150K over 25 years or whatever)

=
5K mo.

out of 6000 a month (assuming you clear 6000 after 401k and insurance), that leaves 1000/mo. You can pay off your loans with that, which would mean paying off 12K extra a year. But if you are smart over the first two years you are socking at least a part of that away so you can have money in case of emergency/layoffs/house, etc...

As for bonus, I have only been here 10 months, and I will believe in an '08 bonus when I see it.

Lastly, when you mention "Manhattan rent," I agree with you, I personally don't live in Manhattan for just that reason. Still, I find it hard to blame a guy for living "like a banker" because he and his wife are renting a two bedroom on the upper west side so he can be in the same bourough as his job.

I stand corrected. Net pay would be more like in the 7000/mo range. So, assuming you did not put any money to savings at all, you'd have 2k a month to play with after bills/rent/regular student loan payments.

If you're trying to support a family AND live in Manhattan AND save AND pay off loans, you're just doomed.

Spouse better at least be bringing in some money otherwise that is flat insanity.

Seriously, what is this stupidity?

The average weekly wage paid in Manhattan is ~ $1,500. A BIGLAW associate is making twice that.

People do survive in NYC. That perceptions of NYC lifestyle have no relationship to what a monthly budget actually looks like when there is major existing debt in the picture is immaterial.

NYC yuppie culture as seen on TV is a fantasy. Supporing a family in Manhattan can be done on one (large) income, but it's not going to be nearly as comfortable as you thought with that debt payment.

The argument was not that people do not survive in NYC. The question is whether one can pay off loans and put money away if one is willing to live a nice but not "IBanker" lifestyle. Oh, yeah, and also, some people get married and raise families, which costs money. I also don't hold that against them.

I am not saying people in NYC starve to death. I am saying that 160 gross in NYC is not enough money for a married associate to pay off the loans in 4-5 years, except perhaps if the associate puts every free penny towards loans and does not even save a 3-6 month emergency fund.

This entire thread is depressing.

We're talking about absolute top comp* for a new member of this profession unless you work at Wachtell, and the numbers are still painful. What about the people who don't get NYC jobs, but paid similar tuition, and are making at best $80K?

And this is when you have that job. I've yet to hear of a career services department being honest about the odds of being around for 4th Year Associate bootcamp on "this is how you actually practice law, now that we're keeping you."

*Unless you are exploiting some of the COL-ignoring consequences of the $160 scale going nationwide and pulling in $145+ in Texas, the Southeast, or Wisconsin. In that case, you are living like a pharaoh.

This entire thread is depressing.

Yes, I agree. The truth is not as rosy as we all thought before we went to law school, even for those of us who ended up in NYC BIGLAW.

I personally think every Harvard 3L should seriously consider Kirkland or Skadden's Chicago office instead of blindly accepting that Sullivan permanent offer.