How Not To Succeed As A Summer Asssociate
Earlier this year, the Office of Career Services at NYU Law School sent out a very informative memo offering advice to future summer associates. We got our hands on it, so we thought we’d share. If you are a current or future summer associate, you should read it; check it out in full, after the jump.
The best part of the memo, “Real World Examples of Career Limiting Behavior,” is essentially a “greatest hits” list of summer-associate screw-ups, bloopers, and faux pas. They range from the mildly embarrassing to the offer-killing. We’ve reproduced it below.
The memo is titled “How To Succeed As A Summer Associate.” Think of these items as “How NOT To Succeed As A Summer Associate — or, alternatively, “How To Succeed As A Summer Ass.”
VIII. Real World Examples of Career Limiting Behavior:A. Unimpressed with the quality of the wine being served at the summer welcome dinner, summer associate orders a special bottle of wine. To make matters worse, summer associate charges the wine to the firm.
B. Summer associate complains about having a windowless office and then claims to have been “promised” a window during the interview process.
C. Summer associate is criticized for filing motion without attachments … summer associate blames the secretary.
D. Summer associate shows up at all firm events involving food, and is so busy eating that they fail to socialize with anyone else.
E. Summer associate makes typographical errors in memoranda.
F. Summer associate paints their toenails in the office, assuming 10 p.m. is “her own time”.
G. Summer associate refuses to work past 7:00 p.m. or on weekends.
H. Summer associate sleeps 12 hours a day during the firm’s three-day sailing trip.
I. Summer associate fails to Shepardize.
J. Summer associate yells at support staff.
K. Summer associate misses a deadline.
L. Summer associate makes up citation to support the position he/she is trying to prove in a brief filed with the court (resulting in immediate termination and letter to Board of Professional Responsibility).
M. Wishing to play on the firm’s ice hockey team, summer associate loudly and persistently discusses their skill as a high school hockey player and claims that he would easily be the best player on the ice. The senior associate who organizes the team is a former NHL player.
N. Summer associate decides to give client legal advice without the express permission of supervising attorney.
O. Summer associate refuses to make edits to a draft brief because “I was an English major in college and I know your edits are incorrect.”
By the way, “Career-Limiting Behavior” is our new favorite expression. We’re going to start using that more often around here.
That’s just the start of the list; it’s rather long, but entertaining (and enlightening). Read the rest, plus the full memo, after the jump.
Here’s the rest of the list:
VIII. Real World Examples of Career Limiting Behavior (continued)P. Summer associate engages in public display of affection with co-clerk in library.
Q. Summer associate turns in a research project that did not answer the question assigned.
R. Summer associate throws up after a firm cocktail party as a result of excess consumption of alcohol.
S. Summer associate visits Internet porn sites at the office.
T. Summer associate forwards a sexist joke to several attorneys at the firm.
U. Summer associate has loud, crass personal conversations regularly from office phone.
V. Summer associate plagiarizes paragraph in memorandum from hornbook.
W. Summer associate is not available to stay late to assist in closing in order to have drinks as planned with other summer associates.
X. Summer associate falls asleep at negotiation session in conference room.
Y. Summer associate removes several attorneys’ phones for an afternoon as a practical joke.
Z. Summer associate takes a significant amount of office supplies (including 10-12 notebooks) home for personal use.
AA. Summer associate organizes summer associate outing to strip club and bills firm.
BB. Summer associate plucks flowers from flowerpot in firm’s lobby.
CC. Summer associate asks printer to create 500 copies of bound document instead of 50 after mishearing directions from partner.
DD. Summer associate trash talks an associate in public area in law firm.
EE. Summer associate berates female partner for her lack of skill at firm softball event.
FF. Summer associate tells a partner that the way he is trying to make a fire during a firm canoe trip is “dumb”; same summer associate, later on the canoe trip, goes skinny dipping with senior associate.
GG. Summer associate uses lunch budget for personal grooming, including a manicure/pedicure.
HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.
II. Summer associate is participating on a conference call with a partner. At 6:45 p.m., summer associate points to their watch, whispers “I have concert tickets,” and leaves the room.
JJ. Summer associate receives an e-mail from a senior associate, sent to the whole summer class, requesting a volunteer to help with an assignment. Summer associate promptly e-mails the senior associate back, informing senior associate that he is busy, but so-and-so (another summer associate) should have some time and can help out.
KK. Summer associate says to a British-trained senior associate “I don’t know where you went to law school, but in America summer associates get more sophisticated work assignments”.
LL. Summer associate proudly informs one senior associate that upon the receipt of an offer of permanent employment, she would only work with two members of the department and be the “go-to” person for them because she doesn’t really enjoy working with anyone else.
The complete memo appears below.
From: [NYU Law School Career Services]
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: How To Succeed As a Summer Associate
The attached memo contains guidance to foster your success in your summer position and is intended to supplement the information provided to you by your summer law firm regarding firm policies and procedures. In order to maximize your opportunity to receive an offer for permanent employment in this uncertain market, the Office of Career Services believes that it is especially important that all summer associates abide by the tips relating to professionalism, general demeanor/behavior, assignments, feedback/evaluations and office protocol. In addition, be mindful that you may need to remain flexible in selecting a particular department from which you wish to receive an offer. Firms have been redeploying their associates in departments that are the busiest, and you will want to demonstrate a willing spirit in this regard.
All 3Ls should plan to participate in Early Interview Week from August 18-22, 2008 since market changes may impact hiring practices in ways that are not predictable at this time. In the past, such changes have included not hiring into particular practice groups, not extending 100% offers to a summer class, and not giving permanent offers until after Early Interview Week has taken place. If you sign up for Early Interview Week and receive a return offer from your summer employer, you may cancel your interview schedule up until the day of the interview, provided you are accepting your summer offer.
To sign up for Early Interview Week, you must first complete your Summer Registration Form which can be accessed on the CSM home page under “EIW Requirement”. Once you have completed your Summer Registration Form, the employer selection module will be open on the FOLLOWING day. Prior to selecting your EIW employers, you will need to post or revise your resume on CSM. To post your resume, click the “Document” tab. To access the employer selection module, click the “OCI” tab and select “Session 2008 EIW Week”. The deadline for submitting your 50 (40 maximum in New York City) employer selections is July 9.
If you have any problems during the course of your summer, whether in your interactions with attorneys or staff, your workload or performance, your participation in firm work or social events, or personal commitments or problems that are interfering with your ability to perform your job, please seek out the advice of an OCS counselor. We wish you the best of luck this summer!
School of Law
Office of Career Services
245 Sullivan Street, Fourth Floor
New York, NY 10012-1301
HOW TO SUCCEED AS A SUMMER ASSOCIATE
I. Professionalism:
A. Your reputation is your most valuable commodity. You are always being evaluated for your professionalism and behavior, whether at a client meeting, firm social event, or in your office over the weekend. To date you may have been judged exclusively on academic performance; success in a law firm is based upon other qualities, such as judgment, interpersonal skills, leadership and time/people/resource management. Behavior is the most important indication of an individual’s judgment. When in doubt, skip the alcoholic beverages and keep a clear head, even if others do not. Be careful about humor, jokes and actions; sexual harassment is not a hypothetical topic.
B. The legal industry is a service industry. Demonstrate responsiveness and reliability by returning phone calls and emails, and meeting deadlines. You must inspire confidence in clients as well as partners, associates and staff.
C. Be consistent in your performance. Many of your assignments may not be complex or difficult; being an effective associate means handling any/all tasks thoroughly, promptly and well. The degree of trust you inspire will determine the amount of responsibility with which you are entrusted.
D. Be a team player. No associate is an island; don’t try to upstage others, either your summer associate colleagues or other attorneys. Don’t be competitive; your good work should speak for itself.
E. Resist the tone of entitlement. As an NYU Law student you may have been heavily recruited during a robust economy and you may be wined and dined over the summer. Don’t let it inflate your sense of self-importance. Once you have proven yourself, law firms can be very supportive and even flexible in helping you achieve your professional goals—but first you must establish your reputation.
F. Poor judgment costs NYU students permanent offers. NYU students rarely fail to receive positive evaluations and permanent job offers due to poor work quality. The problems almost always stem from exercise of poor judgment:
1. Not communicating problems with work until it is too late;
2. Overindulgence at social events or inappropriate behavior;
3. Inability to get along with others, to understand law firm culture and the respect for a hierarchical . structure;
4. Arrogance or a bad attitude about work; lack of hard work/cooperation.
II. General Demeanor/Behavior:
A. Maintain a positive attitude. If you are feeling ambivalent about your experience, do your best to suppress those feelings around the office. If you verbalize your uncertainty about the firm’s geographic location, practice or culture, your unhappiness may become a factor when the firm is deciding whether to extend you an offer. If you choose to reinterview through EIW, having an offer for permanent employment from your summer firm will boost your candidacy.
B. Attend firm social events regularly. Summer associates may be expected to attend many social events while still completing assignments thoroughly and on time. Firms are more likely to extend permanent offers to summer associates who make a sincere effort to become socially integrated at the firm. Take the initiative to meet attorneys, especially those with whom you would like to work. Be yourself and make friends; summer classmates can provide reliable feedback and tips. However, attendance at firm events and summer lunches should not be at the expense of your work. Note that it is generally inappropriate to bring guests to firm events unless the firm specifically extends an invitation to guests.
C. Be careful about confiding in work colleagues. Those at work are your professional colleagues more than they are your friends, and their primary concern is the work of the firm.
D. Be consistently courteous to support staff, including the recruitment staff, paralegals, secretaries, messengers, mailroom and duplicating center staff, security personnel, and other firm employees. Your ability to get work done now and in the future will depend upon these people. The recruitment coordinator is an important ally and often has a strong “informal” influence on your return offer. Resist the urge, however, to ‘spill your guts’ or ‘let your hair down’ with recruiting personnel. Give specific instructions to support staff members; try to anticipate your need for night or weekend support in advance.
E. Maintain client confidentiality. Be careful about discussing matters or reading confidential materials in public areas, such as elevators, restaurants or the subway.
F. Be selective in your comments when asked for a critique of the summer program. Present any suggestions in a positive and constructive spirit as you are still under evaluation. Critiques occasionally allow a firm to uncover a disgruntled employee or someone with a perennially bad attitude.
III. Assignments:
A. Approach all assignments with enthusiasm. Do not communicate any criticism or negative commentary about a partner or associate, summer associate or client. If an assignment is ethically objectionable, talk to your OCS counselor for advice or ask your mentor for the best strategy to deal with this issue.
B. Quality is job #1. You don’t win extra points for taking on a huge number of assignments if you don’t complete them in a timely manner and with a high degree of excellence.
C. Know your deadlines and meet them. While you should not turn down assignments regularly, you should let assigning attorneys know about other projects and their deadlines. Similarly, let assigning attorneys know immediately if a deadline cannot be met and inform them of any delays. Ask for help in prioritizing assignments, if necessary; it is not your role to determine which project is more urgent.
D. Always take a pen and legal pad whenever meeting with any supervising attorney, whether a partner or an associate. Write everything down; terms and details that may not make sense initially will be invaluable later on. Always ask for and write down the client and matter numbers, the due date, and the form in which the assigning attorney wants your work product (e.g., memorandum, brief, oral answer).
E. Ask questions to clarify each assignment and the issues to be researched. Ask the attorney to focus the issue as much as possible and for as much background information as may be available. Ask whether there is a more junior associate on the matter to whom you can refer your questions; it is often not possible or cost-effective for a busy partner or senior associate to provide you with guidance throughout the assignment. Try to ask all your questions at once so that you do not have to return many times.
F. Be resourceful in finding the information and research materials you need. Always consider efficiency and avoid “reinventing the wheel.” Junior associates and the professional library staff at the firm are excellent resources. Similarly, use forms or templates when available.
G. Proofread all memoranda, even emails, for typos. You are being judged, in part, by for your attention to detail; if you do not demonstrate your care and diligence on the simplest tasks, you will never be entrusted with the complex matters. Even if an assigning attorney asks for a “draft,” be sure it is in the best shape possible. Use Spell Check carefully, and don’t rely on it to catch all spelling and grammatical errors.
IV. Feedback/Evaluations and Mentors:
A. Embrace feedback as a key component of your education, and don’t pressure yourself with expectations of perfection. Your supervisors will look for a positive attitude in understanding mistakes and taking affirmative action to improve your skills. Above all, your first legal job should be a learning experience.
B. Recognize that feedback can be formal or informal, and seek out the feedback of supervising attorneys on your work. Make a polite request by email and be persistent in following up, but don’t be a nag.
C. Find out if your firm assigns mentors; if not, find one. NYU alumni are an excellent place to start. Take advantage of having a mentor to guide you and to answer your questions about the firm, assignments, procedures and other issues that may arise during the summer.
D. If you have any inkling of a problem at your mid-summer evaluation, call your OCS counselor immediately to develop a strategy for the remainder of the summer.
V. Office Protocol:
A. Hours. In general, between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. each business day, you should consider yourself “on-call.” Check with your supervising attorney before scheduling any daytime appointment or errand, and, if you must leave, always be reachable by phone and by email if you have been given a Blackberry. Inform your secretary of your whereabouts if you leave your office so that you can be located easily. Expect to work 7 to 10 hours of true billable time per day, Monday through Friday. Be prepared to work on weekends as needed.
B. Dress code. Conform to the office dress code; look to other associates for standards. Do not seek to stand out because of your personal appearance. Keep a pressed suit, clean shirt and appropriate accessories in the office in the event of an unexpected client meeting or court appearance. You would not want to be left behind for lack of proper attire.
C. Responding to emails and telephone calls. Return time-sensitive emails and telephone calls within a half hour if possible. If your firm has given you a Blackberry, you are expected to be accessible by email and be immediately responsive. When clients email or call, let them know you are working on their questions and you will be conferring with partners/associates; it is fine not to know an answer, but failing to respond to an email or call is not acceptable.
D. Use of email and the internet. Assume someone is reading all your email; never use it for pranks, junk mail, jokes, games or personal use. Beware of the feature that sends email to everyone/replies to everyone; always review who is listed in the “To:”, “Cc:” and “Bcc:” categories before sending an email. Refrain from using the internet for personal reasons.
E. Use of copy and fax machines, and long distance telephone calls. Be aware that clients are charged for these services. Learn and follow the proper procedures for billing clients accordingly.
F. Use of Lexis and Westlaw. Make sure it is permissible to use these services on each client matter; incurring these charges may not be appropriate for some clients or matters. Call the Lexis and Westlaw 800 numbers for help with your searches if necessary; each firm has a representative whose job it is to help you use these resources efficiently and effectively. It is never appropriate to utilize your NYU Educational Account with Lexis or Westlaw to conduct research for a law firm or client.
G. Billing and time records. Keep accurate and detailed time records. Bill all time spent on an assignment; the partner will decide if time is “discounted.” But, do not inflate hours or “round up;” bathroom breaks and phone calls must all be subtracted from billable time. Learn the firm’s policies and spending limits for billing meals and car service.
VI. Additional Strategies for the Summer:
A. Departmental offers. If you hope to be given an offer in a particularly small or popular department (such as in the entertainment, tax, trusts and estates, labor and employment, copyright, or real estate departments), be sure to work closely with several lawyers in that department so that you can begin to think about and plan for your choice(s) early. Being “flexible” in your choice(s) of department will also help insure that you receive a permanent offer. Try to ascertain whether the firm definitely has openings for new graduates in your department of choice. Some NYU students have lost permanent offers when their departmental choices (submitted at the end of their summer) did not match the firm’s needs.
B. Splitting summers. If you are splitting the summer, realize that you need to accomplish ten-plus weeks of work and socializing in fewer weeks in order to obtain two return offers. Work to maintain your energy and enthusiasm during the second half of your summer when summer associates typically begin to feel burned-out. You want to strive to be just as well-known and well-regarded as your summer associate colleagues who are spending the entire summer at the firm. Because the presumption is that your loyalties are divided, extra effort is often required to earn a return offer.
C. Preserve your options. All 3Ls should plan to participate in Early Interview Week from August 18-22, 2008 to cover all of your bases, since several law firms do not give permanent offers until after EIW has taken place. 3Ls are permitted to drop their entire EIW schedule once a permanent offer is secured.
VII. What to Do If You Do Not Receive an Offer:
A. Many firms give their summer associates early assurances that there are enough permanent offers for everyone at the end of the summer. The firm’s goal may be to put you at ease and give you a sense of confidence early in the summer. By dispelling your concerns, they hope to increase group morale and decrease competition among summer associates. Realize, however, that these promises may or may not be fulfilled at summer’s end.
B. If you do not receive a return offer from your summer employer, we recommend that you take the following steps:
1. Immediately inform your career counselor at the Office of Career Services. If you believe that the decision not to extend you an offer was based upon discriminatory or other illegal reasons, please discussion the situation with and OCS Counselor.
2. Clarify with your firm exactly why you did not receive an offer. Employers decide not to extend offers to summer associates for many reasons. Sometimes these reasons are clearly explained to the student, but more often the explanations are vague. Determine if the problem was simply a “run-in” with one partner or if your basic legal skills were called into question; it is always easier when the firm can confirm your superior legal skills.
3. While it is very difficult under the circumstances, make every effort to approach the situation calmly, rationally, and with a positive attitude. Do not confront those supervising attorneys who supplied negative reviews, but seek them out with an open-minded attitude and look at the situation as objectively as you can. Identify how you can learn from the experience. Regardless of who is right or wrong, if you approach this difficult situation in a positive way, you are more likely to secure the firm’s cooperation and assistance going forward—and you will need it.
4. Find out how many offers the firm has actually given, and in what departments. The higher the proportion of students who did not receive offers, the less weight prospective employers will place on your lack of offer.
5. Upon confirming the firm’s policy on references, establish two references at the firm. The advice of the hiring partner can be helpful. Find out exactly what your references will say. Your version of the story in interviews should mirror what your references will say. Getting a written reference letter on the firm’s letterhead, though lawyers may be reluctant to give you one, gives you more control in later interviews than a telephone reference.
6. Get a reference letter from either a professor or from a prior legal employer, in addition to your references from your summer firm.
7. Plan to increase your volume of interviews during EIW and Fall OCI, and embark on an aggressive networking and letter-writing campaign.
8. Spruce up your writing sample.
9. Work closely with an OCS counselor to prepare for your interviews and schedule a videotaped mock interview. Be confident and non-defensive in your interviews although you may be feeling shocked, hurt and angry at the way your employer treated you; work through those feelings with your counselor in the OCS before you embark on any interviews. During your job search process, never speak critically about your summer employer. You also will want to be able to answer the question “Did you get an offer?” easily and comfortably.
VIII. Real World Examples of Career Limiting Behavior:
A. Unimpressed with the quality of the wine being served at the summer welcome dinner, summer associate orders a special bottle of wine. To make matters worse, summer associate charges the wine to the firm.
B. Summer associate complains about having a windowless office and then claims to have been “promised” a window during the interview process.
C. Summer associate is criticized for filing motion without attachments … summer associate blames the secretary.
D. Summer associate shows up at all firm events involving food, and is so busy eating that they fail to socialize with anyone else.
E. Summer associate makes typographical errors in memoranda.
F. Summer associate paints their toenails in the office, assuming 10 p.m. is “her own time”.
G. Summer associate refuses to work past 7:00 p.m. or on weekends.
H. Summer associate sleeps 12 hours a day during the firm’s three-day sailing trip.
I. Summer associate fails to Shepardize.
J. Summer associate yells at support staff.
K. Summer associate misses a deadline.
L. Summer associate makes up citation to support the position he/she is trying to prove in a brief filed with the court (resulting in immediate termination and letter to Board of Professional Responsibility).
M. Wishing to play on the firm’s ice hockey team, summer associate loudly and persistently discusses their skill as a high school hockey player and claims that he would easily be the best player on the ice. The senior associate who organizes the team is a former NHL player.
N. Summer associate decides to give client legal advice without the express permission of supervising attorney.
O. Summer associate refuses to make edits to a draft brief because “I was an English major in college and I know your edits are incorrect.”
P. Summer associate engages in public display of affection with co-clerk in library.
Q. Summer associate turns in a research project that did not answer the question assigned.
R. Summer associate throws up after a firm cocktail party as a result of excess consumption of alcohol.
S. Summer associate visits Internet porn sites at the office.
T. Summer associate forwards a sexist joke to several attorneys at the firm.
U. Summer associate has loud, crass personal conversations regularly from office phone.
V. Summer associate plagiarizes paragraph in memorandum from hornbook.
W. Summer associate is not available to stay late to assist in closing in order to have drinks as planned with other summer associates.
X. Summer associate falls asleep at negotiation session in conference room.
Y. Summer associate removes several attorneys’ phones for an afternoon as a practical joke.
Z. Summer associate takes a significant amount of office supplies (including 10-12 notebooks) home for personal use.
AA. Summer associate organizes summer associate outing to strip club and bills firm.
BB. Summer associate plucks flowers from flowerpot in firm’s lobby.
CC. Summer associate asks printer to create 500 copies of bound document instead of 50 after mishearing directions from partner.
DD. Summer associate trash talks an associate in public area in law firm.
EE. Summer associate berates female partner for her lack of skill at firm softball event.
FF. Summer associate tells a partner that the way he is trying to make a fire during a firm canoe trip is “dumb”; same summer associate, later on the canoe trip, goes skinny dipping with senior associate.
GG. Summer associate uses lunch budget for personal grooming, including a manicure/pedicure.
HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant.
II. Summer associate is participating on a conference call with a partner. At 6:45 p.m., summer associate points to their watch, whispers “I have concert tickets,” and leaves the room.
JJ. Summer associate receives an e-mail from a senior associate, sent to the whole summer class, requesting a volunteer to help with an assignment. Summer associate promptly e-mails the senior associate back, informing senior associate that he is busy, but so-and-so (another summer associate) should have some time and can help out.
KK. Summer associate says to a British-trained senior associate “I don’t know where you went to law school, but in America summer associates get more sophisticated work assignments”.
LL. Summer associate proudly informs one senior associate that upon the receipt of an offer of permanent employment, she would only work with two members of the department and be the “go-to” person for them because she doesn’t really enjoy working with anyone else.
(143) Comments
Comments
FIRST! Will the A&B summer Dvijlan be listed as additional point!???
"E. Summer associate makes typographical errors in memoranda."
Has any summer associate made it through the summer withou making a typo? Come on.
Best one is making up your own cite. That would take some serious balls, coupled with a serious lack of brain function.
"HH. Summer associate extends disingenuous lunch invite to attorney in order to dine at an expensive restaurant."
Umm... doesn't that apply to all "lunch invitations" from summers to associates and vice-versa? What exactly would an ingenuous lunch invitation involve? The summer and the associate being deeply interested in each other as human beings?
If you are working at a firm that makes you work past 7 PM or on weekends consistently over the summer, do you really want to work hard at returning?
Some of these are absurd. I've seen *partners* make typographical errors not just in memoranda, but in pleadings. On MULTIPLE occasions.
Also, who puts a summer in charge of a filing??????? WTF!!
Coupled with possibly never being allowed to practice before graduating law school. Boob.
Can I get the background about M? They are all pretty funny, but I've got to find out more about that one.
Y. Summer associate removes several attorneys' phones for an afternoon as a practical joke.
WTF? Some of these are just amazing. This is what happens when you bring young, inexperienced twentysomethings to work as overpaid summer associates - you know, those who went straight from undergrad to law school and have never had a real job. Law schools should stop admitting anyone who hasn't had at least one year of post-undergrad work experience.
I don't think the point is that committing one of these - typos, bad Shepardizing - will get you no-offered. Everyone makes mistakes, especially SAs.
I think the point is that you shouldn't do any of these behaviors knowingly or deliberately.
Absolute proof that brilliant law students can still be dumb enough to be complete deuschbags.
A great prank to pull, though, is to remove someone's escape key, tape down the actual button, and the replace the key on top. All their windows will immediately close for weeks.
summer associates do actual work?
I know some practicing attorneys who would benefit from reading these and *putting them into practice" !
I hope our summer associates extend disingenuous lunch invites so we can dine at an expensive restaurant. How about today, fellas?
8 to 8 and weekends? Seems a bit excessive. I think 9-6 or 9-7 is much more realistic.
Also 7-10 billable hours per day is much more than I ever did. I think I averaged around 5, and I never had anyone mention a thing about it. Just do the assignments you're given, and make sure to ask for more work if you're running low.
With this market, just because you made it in as a summer, doesn't mean you'll get an offer. A firm in the Valley I was at during the tech bubble didn't make an offer to a male summer who got wasted at an office function and proceeded to slap a female associate on the butt, among other ribaldry. (It wasn't Tucker Max.)
Guys at my high school used to [A-LL] all the time, it was no big deal.
12:58, nobody's makes me work past 7 yet, but I like my firm because there's the chance that they will. They pay me 3K a week as a 1L, I can get shithoused on my own time, I'm here to see what it's like to be in the trenches with these people, and whether I want to come back afterwards...
seriously...what's with all of the real-work examples? filing motions? giving the client legal advice? deadlines?? SA, there's a wine and cheese soiree on the 2nd floor with your name all over it.
About those typos, NYU -- see your memo, Section VII(B)(1):
If you believe that the decision not to extend you an offer was based upon discriminatory or other illegal reasons, please discussion [sic] the situation with and [sic] OCS Counselor.
MM Smoking pot at your desk.
NN Banging a married partner in the library.
OO Showing penis tattoo to secretary.
I think Y is hilarious. A summer who had the balls to pull a prank on some of the attorneys automatically gets my vote.
What kind of uptight firms do people work at that practical jokes are some kind of no-no? It's not like he put a black mamba in a partner's drawer or something.
Not knowing the situation, I'd still like to defend H., the three-day sailing trip person. It's quite possible the summer had severe seasickness, and the medicine to combat it knocked him/her out.
How about NYU Dean, Irene Dorzback, actually advocate on behalf of NYU students and STOP TELLING STUDENTS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO? Dorzback, has the easiest job in the world and she sucks at it. BIG TIME.
Most of this advice is common sense or just garbage. Summers that don't get offers usually have either done something terribly wrong, pissed off the wrong person, or just gotten plain unlucky. No one is not getting an offer b/c of a typo or overuse of Lexis.
Moreover, if Dorzback wanted to protect students there are ways she could force the firm to at least give a cold offer. She would rather tell NYU students what to do. Rather than cash any of the chits in that she has accumulated by being the head of the career center.
BRING BACK GAIL CUTTER.
I agree that most of these aren't all that bad and some of them (e.g., mistakes in motion filing) reflect more poorly on the firm for putting the summer in a position of too much responsibility than on the summer for making the mistake. Making up citations is a definite ticket to no-offerland, but many others just reflect the general sense of overblown entitlement that afflicts a substantial proportion of any summer class. If you got no-offered for being an arrogant douchebag, firms would be making offers to 50% or less of their class each summer. Also, if you're in the office at 10 P.M. and are not working on a time-sensitive project, what's wrong with painting your nails? My attitude as a summer and a real associate has always been that if the firm wants me to be here 15 hours a day, it can deal with the fact that I'm going to take care of personal business on occasion during the down time.
I know someone that hooked up with a fellow summer, a paralegal, and another associate (in the office), and made numerous inappropriate remarks in the office. But he was well liked by his colleagues and did good work and most importantly he did not piss off any partners. He got an offer. Another friend did not come into work until noon everyday and got an offer. It is luck of the draw.
C is the firm's fault, not the SA's.
I love the made up cite. 82 BS Rptr 345 (2008) at 376. Seriously, what law school failed to teach this bozo ethically proper sleazy tricks like citing dicta. There's a pun here I think...
sleeping 12 hours a day on a sailing trip is probably a medical thing--I hope that firm got sued under the ADA.
1:29,
You're a fucking loser. First of all, Dorzback is awesome and is one of the relatively few NYU administrators who actually gives a damn about the students. Second, instead of whining about what NYU should do to cover the asses of the very few students who manage to fuck up their summer associateships so monumentally as to get no-offered, how about taking a little personal responsibility for whatever it was you did to cause your firm to take such a drastic step? You're a big boy/girl now, it's time to stop looking to others to shield you from the consequences of your own incompetence.
"Summer associate paints their toenails in the office, assuming 10 p.m. is 'her own time.'"
Use of gender-neutral pronoun in conjunction with a gender-specific quote? Yet another reason YLS pwns NYU.
The only reason I can think of that the firm was pissed that the SA "plagiarized" a paragraph from a Hornbook in his memo was that the associate/partner he was working for tried "plagiarize" the memo in his court filing.
1:42-- Do you really not see a difference between the unattributed use of a copyrighted work of an external author and the unattributed use of a work produced internally over which the firm holds copyright?
I know where at least one "A" happened. The bottle was hundreds of dollars and the summer had the nerve to tell the sommelier in a rude manner that their wine list stunk (this was at one of the most expensive and notable restaurants in the city).
I used to close the door in my office and paint my fingernails all the time in BIGLAW. I didn't have an officemate or anybody nearby who could smell the fumes, so who cares? I suppose doing it in full view is kind of idiotic, but I don't think it's that big a deal. And Q and CC? Happens on a daily basis with experienced associates. Be normal, likeable, and literate and you'll get an offer. I also don't think II is that big a deal, though I wouldn't advise it to a summer associate
"G. Proofread all memoranda, even emails, for typos. You are being judged, in part, by for your attention to detail; if you do not demonstrate your care and diligence on the simplest tasks, you will never be entrusted with the complex matters."
Classic - 'by for your attention to detail'
"C is the firm's fault, not the SA's."
Good luck with that kind of thinking, let us know how it works out.
Only idiot NYU students would need such obvious advice. Confirms everyone's belief that this is the most overrated school ever.
What kind of crap firm has SA's file motions? It certainly couldn't have been on a complex, bet-the-company matter.
"Absolute proof that brilliant law students can still be dumb enough to be complete deuschbags."
Use of the spelling "deuschbags" has got to be the funniest thing that I have seen on this site.
Hey 1:44, that was me!
I think if you don't receive an offer the number one question you should ask is whether it's a no-offer or a cold offer. That can make all the difference when you look for another job. As to making some huge show and seeking out feedback from every associate you worked with, I think that's ill-advised. It may not be common knowledge that you didn't receive an offer, so why draw attention to yourself? You're unlikely to get any concrete feedback, anyway.
1:54: I agree. That never, ever should've been left to a SA.
What is this intrigue in the NYU Dean's Office? Lat, get on this.
Some of these things would make me MORE inclined to want to hire the person. There are too many pussified lapdogs in the legal profession. We need more people who refuse to work late hours, paint their toes, etc. They're like the few people in law school who don't mid saying "pass" when called on. The rest of you sniveling , risk-averse people-pleasers are just jealous.
I'll bet that the author of What Law School Doesn't Teach You would be interested in this entire memo, as much of it appears to be lifted from her book. Perhaps NYU should take a closer look at example V.
I'm with you on the nail painting, 1:58, but if you consistently refuse to work late hours, you're in the wrong profession.
yeah, I'm surprised that more people haven't picked up on the obvious... filing a motion? summer associates are NOT ADMITTED TO THE BAR! if an attorney on the case is having a SA file the motion and the SA screws it up, blaming the SA is not an option.
advice to a SA could be summed up as follows: do what you're told, don't complain, be social and be mature. you're vastly overpaid with respect to your real value to the firm, so be grateful to have the position you have. you're still interviewing for your job, and you aren't a lawyer yet.
Late hours aren't required in the legal profession. Lawyers are not doctors; there are no true emergencies.
What about last summer when my firm had a women-only summer event -- SA demanded a mens-only event too (forgetting that men are not the ones facing any discrimination).
2:05: True most of the time, but the goal is to get an offer. If you need to eat shit for a few months, so be it. It's easier to push back once the firm is stuck with you.
This list, which has been around for some time, is just a laundry list of the reasons given by firms to NYU as to why they no-offered any given SA. That's why some illustrate awful and downright idiotic behavior while others seem like minor transgressions at most. I imagine some of the reasons (e.g. the typographical error) were lame excuses by a firm which could not afford to offer every associate a position.
Also, I agree 1:39, Dorzback is excellent. Can't really say the same for most of the others there.
MM. Don't be that guy.
NN. Summer associate failed to keep his/her moustachio well-trimmed.
NN. Summer associate failed to keep his/her moustachio well-trimmed.
I have a fun Summer A$$ story--it just happened a few minutes ago in my firm's SV office.
I (shockingly!) was working at my desk and happened to catch a glimpse of a summer associate who I have met a few times. He appeared to 1) either be walking funny or 2) limping. But I only caught a glimpse, so I wasn't sure.
So I look up and ask, "Hey, are you limping?"
And he says, "No, this is just an exercise I'm doing" in a super-sarcastic voice. As in, "you're the a$$hole for asking a sympathetic question and F-you!"
Classic case of a response you might give to a buddy, but probably would not give in the office to someone you barely know, (who, BTW, is evaluating you.)
Dear Summer Associate,
If you're reading this, why don't you go join Hofstra Magna with your third-tier MBA and work in business, because a bit of tact is required in the legal world.
Cheers.
From a Top-Ten MBA to whom you were just really rude
OO. Summer associate double-posted asinine comments on trashy blog under a fake name.
2:13: That is pretty socially graceless. I remember being an associate and having SAs be dismissive toward me b/c I didn't go to a top-ranked law school. Hello, I'm employed here and you're still being tested. Idiots.
2:13--you're an ass. who asks "are you limping" for someone that is obviously limping? instead of looking up from your screen to ask such a retarded question, why not just wait until the next social even and see if it comes up there?
1:39, you suck. Why I don't you post your actual name before acting like such a tough guy on the blog. Dorzback, is terrible. Tell me what has she done for you? Gotten you a job with a NY firm? Not, very difficult for a NYU student.
How many people do you know who want to do public interest that graduate without a job? How many people do you know who had decent grades and wanted to go back to Cali but did not get any offers?
I bet quite a bunch. Dorzback, could care less about students. Gail Cutter was great. She took affirmative steps to get people jobs that they wanted. Dorzback, does not. That is a fact.
1:39, btw I had a summer job with V20 firm and got an offer and where I currently work. A friend of mine was not so lucky and the career center did crap for him. Instead, Dorzback made him do these mock interviews where they asked questions like why did you get a B in contracts that no interviewer asks.
Please post your name and contact information and I will be happy to discuss this further with you. I suspect that you are too cowardly do so.
1:39, btw I had a summer job with V20 firm and got an offer and it is where I currently work. A friend of mine was not so lucky and the career center did crap for him. Instead, Dorzback made him do these mock interviews where they asked questions like why did you get a B in contracts that no interviewer asks.
Please post your name and contact information and I will be happy to discuss this further with you. I suspect that you are too cowardly do so.
1:39, btw I had a summer job with V20 firm and got an offer and it is where I currently work. A friend of mine was not so lucky and the career center did crap for him. Instead, Dorzback made him do these mock interviews where they asked questions like why did you get a B in contracts that no interviewer asks.
Please post your name and contact information and I will be happy to discuss this further with you. I suspect that you are too cowardly do so.
I agree with F. Who makes a SA work until or past 10 PM? I'd be strolling around in boxers.
"Summer associate paints their toenails in the office, assuming 10 p.m. is 'her own time.'"
Who wants to work for a firm that makes you work until 10 PM and then complains about you taking a few minutes to paint your nails? JFC.
Do these suggestions apply to Top Legal Talent?
If you work from 9 AM until 10 PM as an SA, do you then work 24 hours a day as a first year? F that place.
2:30 (1): Are you kidding? Sometimes I "limp" because I'm wearing new shoes and have blisters. Sometimes I limp because my knee is bothering me. I appreciate the sympathetic question.
I once worked with a tool who saw me come into the office on crutches with a cast on my leg and said nothing at all. Turned the other way, in fact. Way too typical in this profession. So, 2:13, no-offer the jerk. We don't need any more of his type.
2:37-- I assume you are being sarcastic, but the more obnoxious ones still probably do. However, if you get no-offered just do a COA clerkship and you will have more offers than you know what to do with and would have no problems changing firms. Also, you probably will not even be asked if you got an offer or not from that firm. This is partly based on personal experience. While I received an offer, I wanted to go from DC to Cali, and was never asked if the DC firm had given me an offer nor was I ever asked to provide a reference (but may have to as part of the background check).
When I was summering for a firm in Rockville, there was this fat blonde who got really hammered and told everyone she liked shoving food up her boyfriend's butt. All the summers called her "fister" after that.
Dear 2:30,
I suspect that your no-offer (oh, "job with a V20," sorry) was largely due to your complete lack of understanding of basic punctuation, particularly comma usage. I'm sure Dean Dorzback would be happy to recommend a remedial course through SCPS if you were to inquire.
Cheers,
1:39
It would be better to ask "why are you limping?" than "are you limping?" when someone is obviously limping. That way you can avoid the smarta__ answer.
"What about last summer when my firm had a women-only summer event -- SA demanded a mens-only event too (forgetting that men are not the ones facing any discrimination)."
Um, doesn't the first part of this disprove the last part (i.e., the paranthetical)?
I'm more amazed by the fact that "Career Limiting Behavior" is Lat's *new* favorite expression. It's been around for years (s.k.a. Career Limiting Move) -- at least in the corporate world. Go into one of your clients, tell the GC or any other contact that this is some brand-new phrase, and he'll look at you like you're an idiot. Or at least someone who's been living under a rock for years.
2:05 - Try telling that to clients, at least the ones I work for. _Everything_ is an emergency to some of them, and needs to be turned overnight. Sure, it's all a game to put the pressure on the other side much of the time, but sometimes there are legitimate reasons, like trying to close by/at the end of a certain accounting period.
Maybe you're a non-bet-the-company litigator or work in a "service" department (benefits, tax, enviro, labor, RE, antitrust) and can (relatively) plan your life?
2:53 is right. if the client (or partner) says it's an emergency, it's an emergency. try telling one of them otherwise.
If a situation like the one 2:53 describes ever comes up, I plan on just politely informing the client/parnter that I don't work past 7pm or on weekends.
I'm going into litigation (yes, including bet-the-company matters), and in litigation, there are deadlines. If a deadline "sneaks up" on the partner such that he needs me to work past 7pm or on a weekend, it's the fault of his own poor organization and time-management skills.
I feel that as long as I'm straightforward and polite about it, it shouldn't be a problem.
Way to take the troll bait 2:53 and 2:56. Are you two new to the internet?
3:01:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
3:01 gets it right (assuming s/he possesses the credentials to back it up). If a partner's looking for a slave, he should ask one of the Fordham kids.
Dear NYU,
Your improper use of "their" (multiple times) as a singular possessive constitutes prestige-limiting behavior. Please take note.
Your superior friend,
HLS.
1:57 is right that putting on a huge show is a terrible idea, but contacting at least some of the people who did evaluate you is vital for an SA who doesn't get an offer.
A guy I summered with two years ago didn't receive an offer for very suspect reasons that even now aren't clear to the rest of us. Since then, not only have none of us fellow SA's heard from him, but none of the attorneys who worked with him have heard a thing. Many of them have openly questioned the firms decision not to hire him and would have happily helped him out in finding employment. Making a big deal about a firm's decision not to hire you is a terrible idea, but isolating yourself from those that can aid you can be just as harmful.
3:01: I can assure you that won't fly at large law firms. Generally, you'll get your directive from a senior associate who is just as harried as you are, not the partner. If you refuse to work past 7:00, you'll be screwing your colleagues, which is never looked upon favorably. Moreover, you're making *a lot* of money and are essentially being paid to be available (within reason).
I'm at a small firm and the place is a ghost town at 7:00. I took a huge paycut to be here, but it's worth it.
2:44: I completely agree. It's very easy to sidestep the whole no-offer thing. The firm doesn't want to destroy your career, they just don't want you to come back.
12:57--the antonym for "disingenous" is not "ingenous" but "sincere." "Ingenous" means (1) noble, honorable or (2) innocent. Now that's ingenious.
All associates should band together and collectively refuse to work past 7pm or on weekends. Compared to some in the blue collar professions, lawyers are suckers.
3:05
I couldn't agree more (was just about to note the same thing). You would think career services at a supposedly top-tier school (by hook or by crook) would have someone familiar with the English language proof-read something before it is distributed to the world.
2:33 - I definitely got asked specific grade questions. Why did I get a B+ in property was there, as was "so why did you slack off second semester?" (My semester GPA went from a 3.7 to a 3.6).
As for 10PM - I'm guessing that's just huge-city centric. I'm at a big firm in the Midwest, and I had a partner (gently) criticize me for being in the office and sending her work at 8:30PM as a summer. I was the only summer who routinely stayed past six, and the place is deserted by seven normally.
3:01 is my hero/heroine.
1:58/2:05's point is that if we hired people with more sack, the profession might be more willing to tell clients that their "emergencies" can wait until monday.
believe it or not, people who show spine and stick up for themselves sometimes win respect for themselves in this world.
meanwhile the rest of us (lawyers) like to imagine that we are winning the admiration of others by putting in those extra few hours to finish by 3 am (when the client is long since asleep), never passing on a prof's question (such integrity), or the other countless daily acts of groveling that make up our professional lives.
1:39, you got me on punctuation. However, you are still a moron!!! Dorzback, could not help any student with anything. Check out her cv. She does not have a law degree and she has a grad degree from a second tier university.
Please tell me what she did for you. Also, let me know where you are working. I don't know of a single person that got a job because of her. She spends most of her day getting fawned over by v-100 firms that want to recruit NYU students and she looks over student's resumes. You also failed to rebut my point about how she does little for public interest students and does little to help NYU students get jobs in tough legal markets such as San Fran. and LA. Given that almost every student at NYU who wants to work at a firm in NYC can do so, she should spend the bulk of her time helping students with bad grades or without offers, students who want to work in public interest, and students who want to work in legal markets outside NYC such as San Fran. You may have decent grammar but your legal reasoning skills need work. Perhaps, if she found a moron like you a job, than maybe she really is a genius.
Does NYU really need her or half of the career center? They should just hire someone to plan EIW and hire someone else who has expertise in legal resumes.
1:29/2:33 - Are you judging Irene's decades-long career one one story about a friend of yours? That doesn't seem sensible to me.
I'm NYU '04 and dealt with both Gail and Irene while I was there. Both were great and gave me plenty of help, and thanks mostly to Irene I got a 1L summer firm job despite average grades and a somewhat tough economy. She went over my resume several times with me and gave me advice on various things. I also had a roommate who got no-offered and she helped him a lot throughout the year (he wound up clerking with a judge who's an NYU alum and then getting a top firm job). He's grateful too.
I'm sorry that she's not a magician who can save every person who doesn't get an offer. Best of luck to your buddy though.
3:20, did you go to a top-10 law school? I find it hard to believe that if you went to a place like Harvard or CLS that recruiters cared that you went down to a 3.6.
3:26 here - I am not 1:39 by the way. Though I agree with what he/she is saying.
thank you 2:52.
Actually, it is referred to as a "CLE," as in "Career Limiting Event."
Hey 2:13, don't be bitter because you don't have good opportunities with your crappy MBA. If you did, you wouldn't be a paper pusher working with Summer Associates, you'd be calling shots at an I-Bank, like I will be, assuming I decide not to go to KKR or Blackstone after I graduate from Zarb.
P.S. You suck.
Regards,
HM
3:26 -
3:20 here. I went to a top ten, yes. Got asked something like that three or four times. Not at the big name firms though - maybe the smaller firms were just more worried that someone applying to them was lazy.
3:24 - stop talking, you are embarrassing yourself (albeit anonymously). Read your own post and I think even you will realize how silly it sounds. Apparently, job placement in San Francisco is the benchmark by which we should evaluate a career office dean at NYU. Not-so-subtle whining about very specific personal problem you had.
I can't help noticing how your argument has changed over time, 3:24. At 1:29 you were complaining that Dorzback doesn't use NYU's institutional influence to extort firms into giving fake offers to the small handful of students who, through breathtaking displays of incompetence or douchebaggery, manage to get themselves no-offered by their summer firms. Two hours later, you've forgotten all about that and the problem has something to do with public interest and San Francisco. One might start to expect that there's nothing wrong with Dorzback at all, but that you're just some asshat who enjoys making baseless complaints on blogs.
3:26, I gave that as one example. There are numerous examples of people I know (who for whatever reason) had some difficulty at EIW and she seemed considerably more concerned about "managing expectations" than anything else. I am impressed that she did that for your friend. I am not sure how the fact that she went over your resume, landed you that job but I will take your word for it.
I know that as a 1L Gail Cutter was willing to do whatever it took to get me the position I wanted. As a 2L, dealing with Irene Dorzback that was not the case. Luckily, as a 3L I had an offer and did not go through EIW again. My friend, was treated like crap by her as were other people I know.
That the career office felt the need to distribute this information speaks volumes about the typical summer associate. Glad to the those OCI interviews are worth the effort. Just dont let a client know behavior like this is done by people handling their case.
That the career office felt the need to distribute this information speaks volumes about the typical summer associate. Glad to the those OCI interviews are worth the effort. Just dont let a client know behavior like this is done by people handling their case.
Dear HLS,
Correcting the grammar of those from lower-ranked schools constitutes not only extreme douchebaggery but also self-consciousness about the fact that Yale (and Stanford too...lets be honest) are much more selective than your school.
Your superior friend,
YLS
"because a bit of tact is required in the legal world"
Thanks for the laugh, 2:13; I needed it.
For the Associate and Summer Associate having the little fight on the message board about the limp....why don't you guys just tell us who you are at this point? We've already got some details about you, with the b-school stuff and all.
I'm so tired of this YLS > HLS > NYU, etc. on this site. I'm a COA clerk who clerks with a Harvard graduate and a Yale graduate. I only went to a T10, but we all have the same position now. Although I never asked them, I'll grant that I probably had to finish a little higher in my class than they did to get this job. However, the difference between the top students at all T10 schools is not that great.
3:52 - I think YLS guy pwned HLS guy because HLS guy made fun of NYU earlier. Hence the comment about him being a douchebag. So you kind of missed the point there (maybe because you only went to at T10? LOL. Kidding)
3:56,
You are correct. My comment is directed more towards the HLS guy. I just notice a lot of comments making distinctions between T3 and T10 schools that I don't believe are justified, particularly at the top of the class.
3:52
3:01, your idea of planned deadlines everyone happily works to meet is really cute. You do realize that in addition to the deadlines imposed by the court there are a ton of unplanned contingencies, right? Like when opposing counsel files an emergency motion and you have 3 days to answer it, or like when the client suddenly finds 10,000 documents it thought it didn't have and you need to produce them asap, etc? Or when you're working on 5 different matters and they all have deadlines? You're going to have a tough time with your "I don't work past 7 PM attitude".
NYUers are whiners. Imagine being at Fordham and having Suzanne Endrizzi as your career development dean. Double Whammy!
3:01 - you rock, and I would pay to see you when you "politely inform" the client/partner of your policy. More so, I would pay to see you escorted out of the building 15 minutes later. :)
3:52 -- It's no less self-serving for you to believe there aren't differences between the T3 and the T10 than for an HLS person to believe that there are. And ten bucks says that prestige post was a joke comment from someone not associated with either institution. And as someone who couldn't care less about instituional identity but has a real disdain for shoulder chips, you may want to knock it off.
2:13-
You mean "tact" like posting anonymously on a legal blog about this alleged indiginity. I guess it would be too much to say something directly to that person you weasel jackass. I honestly loathe you. BigLaw associates are total pussies.
No one else on here read that comment and shared these sentiments?
Suzanne Endrizzi would help you get a job, if only she wasn't too busy smoking capri 100's out front. (Don't interrupt her smoke break(s), by the way.)
3:01, not working past 7 or on weekends can be done at a big name BigLaw shop. That is my typical schedule, but: 1) I do not work in litigation or corporate, but in one of the "service" departments where emergencies tend not to show up; 2) I can and do work past 7 or on weekends if I know the situation calls for it ; and 3) I come in earlier than most litigation folks do on a regular basis- my workday starts at 8:15 or 8:30. Those are the three magic rules if you want free evenings and weekends on a regular basis.
D. Summer *associate* shows up at all firm events involving food, and is so busy eating that *they* fail to socialize with anyone else.
E. Summer associate makes typographical errors in memoranda.
Backup Plan: NYU Law School Career Services
Oh, give it a rest 3:52 (and "YLS"). The point is that NYU (could have been any other school) put out a big list of things that will make you look bad if you do them, yet littered that list with repeated grammatical error -- and not some nitpicky grammar-snob one either; the meaning and usage of "their" should be clear to anyone with a third-grade education. Anyway, it's ironic is all. You can ignore my lighthearted snark if you're really that sensitive - it's not really necessary to the criticism/observation.
3:05
2:07, men never suffer discrimination because of their gender? Please look up on wikipedia "Selective Service".
you know, 7:26, you might have a point IF THE DRAFT HAD BEEN IMPLEMENTED SINCE THE KOREAN WAR.
I'm female, and I served, despite intense discrimination against women in the military. So bite me.
2:13 is right.
surely, having an injury stinks, as does being asked about it 10 times a day. that, however, doesn't give you the right to be rude to the people around you - any of them, especially those higher up.
half the NYU list carries the following theme: if you're rude to people will decide whether to hire you, they won't hire you.
and to those who think 2:13 should have phrased his question differently - come on! since when are associates supposed to walk on eggshells around summer associates? there was nothing wrong with his inquiry, and any smarmy remark in the tone of "mind your own business" was uncalled for.
*yawns* it was probably just an incredibly awkward attempt at making a joke out of it.
I'm praying that 3:01 is someone else at my firm, because I'm one of those kids panicked about getting an offer because he typoes in a memo, and so long as there's someone telling the partners to piss off I hope I'm OK.
Pretty sure "typo" is not a verb, 8:03. First nail in your coffin.
It's not? Jesus, I gotta get back to the office.
Stupid Summer Associate:
D. Summer associate shows up at all firm events involving food, and is so busy eating that they fail to socialize with anyone else.
I. Summer associate fails to Shepardize.
R. Summer associate throws up after a firm cocktail party as a result of excess consumption of alcohol.
K. Summer associate misses a deadline.
Guys at my high school exhibited Career Limiting Behavior all the time. It was no big deal.
7:43, the Vietnam war came after the Korean war. Trust me, there was a draft during the Vietnam War.
And there is a big difference between voluntary enlistment, and forcing only men to involuntarily serve in the military and do something they did not sign up for. We're talking about sex discrimination against men, remember?
Are you sure the "intense discrimination" you suffered is not because you're a woman, but actually because of your blinding stupidity in not knowing there was a Vietnam War draft and that there is a difference between enlisting and drafting?
"Summer associate sleeps 12 hours a day during the firm's three-day sailing trip."
The summer took dramamine. I took some before deep sea fishing on a firm retreat and had to take a nap inside the boat. It knocks you out.
10:01, that was balls on (pun intended). What a pwning.
If making a typo results in a cold offer, my first SA memo just earned me 8 cold offers..
2:13, I wasn't being sarcastic, I was kisked in the balls. I am going to kick your ass now.
Some of these are pretty fricking petty. Like no summer associate has ever turned in work with a typo and gotten an offer. Give me a break.
I do have a classic SA story: My brother worked at a Chicago firm and one of his buddies slept with one of the female SA's. One night out with a bunch of the SAs and younger associates, he told everyone about it in explicit detail. Based on his description of events, the female SA's nickname for the rest of the summer was "Cold Carl."
Some of these are pretty fricking petty. Like no summer associate has ever turned in work with a typo and gotten an offer. Give me a break.
I do have a classic SA story: My brother worked at a Chicago firm and one of his buddies slept with one of the female SA's. One night out with a bunch of the SAs and younger associates, he told everyone about it in explicit detail. Based on his description of events, the female SA's nickname for the rest of the summer was "Cold Carl."
Here's another piece of SA advice, courtesy of one of my law school classmates who ended up working as a high school teacher. If you're working for a law firm in D.C., you probably don't want to put on your resume that you were captain of the men's heavyweight rowing team at Georgetown when you weren't and only rowed for one year out of four . That way you won't find yourself without a job or access to the law school's career services dept when some enthusiastic partner introduces you to one of your old "teammates" at a firm social event.
Please explain "Cold Carl."
What you can't look at porn on the computer while at work. That's not the firm for me.
As a summer associate, it is bad manners to hook up with another attorney who is married in the office, and then threaten to sue the firm if a job offer does not arise. Although, you wouldn't technically lose the associateship in this case, but insure one. However, after all is said and done, the summer who demanded the position, then rejects it.
Is it really frowned upon for a single summer to hook up with a single associate? Is the associate frowned upon? As long as they're not dry-humping each other at a firm cocktail party, I don't know why the firm should care if two consenting adults get together
5:16,
Depends on the firm. You do so at your own peril. The associate won't lose his/her job (but judgment might be questioned). However, the summer could very well lose an offer. Depends on how stuffy upper management is. If they are old school, hard line, "law is a learned profession" type of guys, its best to look elsewhere for a significant other. If the top brass is younger, you might be OK.
So this happened at my firm: The summer (a 24 year old guy) is sitting in a partner's office (with the partner there too) waiting for a conference call to begin when an attractive female associate walks into the room to join the call. The female associate packs about a 34DD and was wearing a fairly plunging blouse that day (it was eye catching for sure). When she walks in, the summer loudly says, "Whoa, Good Mornin'!" (It was 4pm) and the associate literally stops in her tracks and just stares at him. The partner (a man), says, "excuse me?" to which the summer replies, "My bad." He got an offer.
2:13 - not quite family guy.
"so seamus, were you in an accident or something?"
"noooo... me father was a tree!"
2:13 - It's not hard to figure out who you (and the summer) are.
You're a jackass. Don't be surprised if one of your superiors finds out you post [not-so] anonymous comments on abovethelaw.
Fucking lawyers. Always trying to regiment the fuck out of everyone else's lives. Dick the Butcher was right on.
1:29
...No one is not getting an offer b/c of a typo or overuse of Lexis.
Well, they might. In law school, Lexis offers very generous and often completely free services to schools as a way to develop brand loyalty among developing lawyers.
Law firms enjoy no such treatment; we've had summer associates rack up 2-3 times their salary in Lexis charges in a given month because they were inept at it.
So, yea, they might...