Nationwide Start Date Watch: Howard Rice
As you might expect, we hear a lot of wild 'n crazy rumors in this line of work. We try to chase down as many as we can, and if we can confirm them, we report out in these pages.
One of the more interesting rumors we received, from multiple sources, was that Howard Rice, the prominent San Francisco -based law firm, was giving its incoming first-year associates two-year deferrals. Talk about a delayed start date!
Two years struck us as a bit insane. Why not just rescind the offers outright, and be done with it?
As is so often the case, however, the game of telephone distorted things a bit. We reached out to the firm for comment. Recruiting partner Jon Hughes explained:
Thank you for providing us the opportunity to address the information you heard about Howard Rice, and to respond to your questions.Your instinct was correct: we are not deferring start dates for two years, and we are not deferring all of our incoming class. We had eight associates scheduled to start this fall - seven litigation associates and one business associate. We are deferring the start dates for three incoming litigation associates for one year. We will pay them a stipend and work closely with them to find opportunities that will be valuable to their development and their careers here. For example, we are looking for opportunities for these new attorneys to work with one or more of the many national and local public interest organizations with which we have a close relationship.
I think the confusion about the two years may be that one of the three associates has a clerkship for fall 2009 to fall 2010, so in that one instance, that incoming associate will start in fall 2010.
Howard Rice has not taken any other actions with respect to more senior classes of associates (that was one of the questions you asked). [Ed. note: We asked about whether the firm had laid off or offered buyouts to any more senior associates.]
Just a few more words to put this decision in context. Our primary goal in making this decision is to ensure that the very bright, hard working and talented attorneys who join us have an experience in their first year of practice that is challenging and interesting. Counting last fall and this coming fall, we have a disproportionately high number of incoming first-year associates who want to join our litigation practice. One of the reasons we attract the best litigation associate candidates in the country is that we give our them more responsibility earlier in their careers than their peers get at many other firms. We concluded that this decision would help us keep that commitment, to our current junior associates and those will be arriving at the firm this fall and next.
We thank Mr. Hughes for the clarification. Deferring incoming first years for a year is obviously not ideal (and it's one of the most delayed start dates we're aware of; prior coverage of start date changes is collected below). But it's a far cry from a two-year "deferral," which is laughable.
Are you aware of a major (i.e., Am Law 200) law firm that is pushing back its start dates for first-year associates? If the news hasn't been mentioned here before, feel free to drop us a line. Thanks.
Earlier: An Update on Start Dates: DLA Piper, Pillsbury Winthrop
Nationwide Start Date Watch: K&L Gates
(52) Comments
These pretzels are making me FIRSTY.
I think it you'll see a lot of start dates getting pushed back if AIPAC gets their wish of a war with Iran.
Right now AIPAC is trying to push an American naval blockade of Iran. See http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?aid=9377&context=va
Raise your voice if you don't want their lobby to further harm your life.
I've never heard of this firm.
I don't care about this TTT firm but I'm loving the new Fedor-Sylvia Affliction banners! I'm very psyched for this card.
P.S. Tim Sylvia is ugly as hell but he is still 1000 times better looking than those Mongoloid cleft palate kids from a few months ago.
Ok, first let me side step the crazy.
Next, I see no problem with defered start dates. In London it is 2 years from acceptance and while there are further steps in education to take most have about a year free. Allows you to travel, work with an NGO or similar all the while knowin you have a big paying job in your future.
3:08, you are a brave man. Don't you know that if AIPAC gets a whiff of your criticism, they will hunt you down and render you off to a secret prison at the center of the earth?
Howard Rice? WTF, ATL is covering solo practitioners now??
What a nice way of saying "we don't have enough work for these kids". Still, it avoids the credibility melt down of rescinding offers.
ps. AIPAC is the cause of tooth decay.
OMG did you say the word AIPAC? Don't you know Jews get all in a huff when you point out that maybe, just maybe, it might not be in America's interest to fight Israel's enemies for them?
Howard Rice is such a prestigious firm that I would consider it an honor to wait even 5 years of deferment for an opportunity to join their ranks.
for all you jew haters: you all probably work in a law firm started and built up by jews. if you have such a problem with them, then why is their money good for you to tkae? oh i forgot your only against aipac but not jews etc....
3:16- Deferred start dates no big deal? Either you are very sheltered, or you had all of your school paid for by mommy and daddy, or were lucky enough to get a scholarship to some TTT.
For the vast majority of us, however, who are scraping buy right now, at the end of our credit cards, and facing triple figure debt, a delayed start date is a HUGE deal.
Either way...I don't like you right now.
At least they are admitting to what has happened. Back in 2002 when they swung the axe in the business department and took out a good number of their senior associates they flat out denied that they had layoffs.
3:41,
The "Jew hater" posts are all made by the same person, almost certainly not an attorney, and almost certainly suffering from Asperger's, as the idee fixe seems to indicate.
Put another way, relax, and don't worry about the autistic troll.
3:41,
The "Jew hater" posts are all made by the same person, almost certainly not an attorney, and almost certainly suffering from Asperger's, as the idee fixe seems to indicate.
Put another way, relax, and don't worry about the autistic troll.
What's with all the anti-semitism today? Do you find it unusual that a Political Action Committee (PAC) would lobby for things that are in their best interest? Yes, Israel feels that a war with Iran is in it's best interest (probably in all our best interests, but that's another story). Yes, the AIPAC (American-Israeli PAC) wants what's in Israel's best interest. Thus, the AIPAC wants the US to go to war with Iran. The US Gov can and will make its own decision based on what's in its best interest.
Let's try to keep the rest of these posts about the Nationwide start date issue. This is not a forum for people's random anti-semitic (or other prejudicial) remarks.
Keep your stupid anti-Semitic comments off ATL and where they belong (the KKK for example).
Lat, can you please remove this nonsense?
The fool thinks he can thwart us! Quick! Unleash the marmosets!
Speaking of removing nonsense, apologies for the double-post 3:46/49. I swear, baby - I only hit it once.
AIPAC is a terrible organization.
AIPAC is a terrible organization.
Like any group that advocates starting wars, AIPAC is a terrible organization, and its activities should be exposed in the bare light of day.
Like any group that advocates starting wars, AIPAC is a terrible organization, and its activities should be exposed in the bare light of day.
3:54, I think you are actually thinking of the New York Knicks - *they* are a terrible organization. AIPAC is actually pretty effective.
Why hasn't Lat deleted the anti-AIPAC posts?
Does someone need to get a call from the Anti Defamation League? Do your job Lat.
Howard Rice is lame.
Is Howard Rice related to Jerry Rice?
It just shows you that grade snobs don't always have big books of business. You might have gotten an A in Criminal Procedure, but you can't make it rain. Nerds.
It just shows you that grade snobs don't always have big books of business. You might have gotten an A in Criminal Procedure, but you can't make it rain. Nerds.
The firm must really be hurting if it can't find 1500 hours of work per associate.
Firms can deny that they have had any layoffs...""we have decided to permanently put back their start date."
How selective is Howard Rice?
A one year deferral is laughable, and a sign of major trouble.
"Firms can deny that they have had any layoffs...""we have decided to permanently put back their start date." "
Also works: "we have retroactively and indefinitely delayed the start date for all mid-level associates in the real estate and securitization practice groups." Zing!!!!!
Jon Hughes has really gone downhill since The Breakfast Club.
Howard Rice's strength is supposed to be litigation. If they can't find enough work for 3 of 7 incoming litigation associates, they must be hurting pretty bad. It must really hurt Rabkin's love of destroying reputations to not be able to claim that the 3 incoming associates were being performance reviewed out...
Here's my question:
Lynn Harwell, who apparently has a MBA/JD from Harvard is working at shithole Lateral Link - what gives???
3:59 to "post of the day"
4:49,
what's the story on Rabkin?
You people have such an east coast bias. Anyone familiar with CA based firms knows that Howard Rice is one of the harder offers to get. That place is chock full of Top 5 law school grads with good grades and clerkships. Just because it doesn't have any presence outside SF doesn't mean it isn't a top firm. Ditto for other places like Keker & Van Nest.
5:39 -- But the more important point is the most selective firms may not be the most financially healthy.
Also it should be noted that since Howard Rice is small (only like 100 or so lawyers I think) it's harder for them to absorb the downturn in the economy. Bringing in three more associates than they need is like taking on an extra million in loss a year.
One slight difference. Keker has enough work to keep its associates busy. Keker also doesn't blindly have grade cutoffs, yet also hire people from Davis.
Is HR at least paying for health insurance?
"Bringing in three more associates than they need is like taking on an extra million in loss a year."
Only if you pay each first year associate $300k each, and they don't bill even on hour.
5:55: Get a clue, if you pay cash of $170 to start this will be almost $300k fully loaded (health, benefits, taxes etc)
6:46,
Instead of trolling this board, go find some business for your underworked colleagues at Howard Rice.
Do you think the 3 associates who don't have a job to go to this September care that Howard Rice is a smaller firm, and therefore it's harder for them to absorb a downturn in the economy?
Good luck to HR trying to recruit people this next year. Any law student would be crazy to accept their offer.
I'd probably accept their offer if I got one from them next fall.
9:26,
See 7:56. Enough said.
9:26 = Loyola 2L
A hurricane sometimes starts with a drizzle. Leading law firms nationally are having somewhat surprising problems with utilization in litigation. The counter cyclical rebound which was anticipated by many simply has not occurred. L&E and IP/Patent show some resilience in many markets - but the heyday of "complex commercial litigation" may have run its course. Stay tuned for many many other leading firms sloughing off less than busy litigators at all seniority levels. If you haven't heard of Howard Rice, you haven't been out in the real world long enough - they are a very strong firm with 1 office in San Francisco - not well known to students and new associates but very well respected by experienced lawyers regionally and nationally. No I don't work there and I'm not a client or a marketing shill. But what you're seeing with Howard Rice is a candid transparent response to a flow of business issue. Whether you're in NY, LA, Chicago, Philadelphia or SF - stay tuned for legions of litigators seeking to lateral because they're being nudged out the door and finding to their schock and horror that there are very very few plausible lateral options. Yes this will probably hurt Howard Rice on campus but that's a choice they feel they have to make.
Howard Rice is respected by experienced lawyers regionally but they are not strong, let alone "very strong", and they are not well known nationally. Since 2000 they've had stealth layoffs more than once, they've shuttered their SoCal office and have lost a significant number of strong partners to larger firms. If they admitted to postponing incoming litigation associates, you can rest assured they probably had stealth layoffs on the existing litigation ranks. In other words, 10:07 sounds like someone from Howard Rice trying to deny the obvious.
-a Howard Rice alumni who went to a larger firm several years ago