The Asia Chronicles: Can You Go Home Again?
In prior installments of the Asia Chronicles, we’ve discussed the pros and cons of working as an American attorney in Asia, how to choose a law firm to work for, and the importance of language skills. Thus far we have been focusing on how to get over to Asia, but many of you have also been asking: “What happens if I want to come back?”
While most of the Asia Corporate Lawyers have sworn that we’re never going to work anywhere else (as Biglaw attorneys at least), we didn’t always know that we were going to want to stay here in Asia indefinitely. As brand-new associates, we worried that if we came out too early in our careers or spent too much time here, we might somehow fall behind our U.S. peers, be permanently labeled the “Asia” guys, or even be left with no career options beyond delivering pizzas upon returning to America. But it turns out there was no need to worry; in fact, we think that in some ways we are getting better training and experience than we would have in New York.
Let’s get one thing straight from the beginning: American attorneys in Asia only practice U.S. law, not local law (unless they also happen to be admitted to the local bar), so fundamentally they work with the same laws and regulations as they would in the U.S. If local law enters into a deal, then local counsel will be hired to advise on it. So while U.S. attorneys in Asia may pick up some knowledge about local laws in passing, and even informally advise on it, their main task is to advise on U.S. law, just as their counterparts in the U.S. do. Most commonly, they will advise on U.S. federal securities laws and New York contract law and, to a lesser extent, U.S. tax law and state corporate laws. Of course, much of an attorney’s work has nothing to do with the law, and U.S. lawyers in Asia also spend much of their time drafting and reviewing documents, conducting due diligence, and generally protecting their clients’ interests.
So if the work and the laws are basically the same, what is different about working in Asia?
Read more, below the fold.
1. Clients in Asia are often less sophisticated than American clients about U.S. laws.
Compared with our colleagues in the U.S., who work mostly with U.S. and European clients, the Asia Corporate Lawyers often find ourselves having to explain concepts and procedures that are common knowledge among Western businesspeople but unfamiliar to Asian clients. While this can be challenging and sometimes frustrating, it has forced us to learn more about the basic practice of corporate law than we might have by doing routine, well-oiled deals out of New York.
2. Junior associates tend to get more responsibility in Asia than they would in the U.S. and to work more closely with senior attorneys and clients.
While we hear that our peer associates in New York and L.A. spend their first couple of years mostly relegated to due diligence or document review, the Asia Corporate Lawyers were all given challenging assignments almost as soon as we arrived. Offices in Asia tend to be small, and when things get busy, everyone is expected to step up to the plate. While the large U.S. offices may have the resources to staff several people on a deal, in Asia it is usually just a partner, a senior associate and a junior associate. Even as first years, we were already drafting agreements, opinions and disclosure, and we regularly participated in client meetings and phone calls. We definitely felt overwhelmed at times, but it forced us to learn quickly, and we skipped over a lot of the drudgery that junior associates must often suffer through.
3. “New York experience” is no longer the sine qua non of a valuable U.S. corporate lawyer.
When we were law students thinking of careers in Asia, we were almost universally advised to get a few years of “New York experience” before venturing overseas. The sentiment seemed to be that foreign markets, especially in Asia, were much less sophisticated than those in New York, that very little training was available in foreign offices, and that starting a career in a foreign office would make achieving partnership much more difficult. We don’t have the space (or brainpower) to discuss the rapid globalization of capital markets and the growth and reform of Asian economies, but suffice it to say that these phenomena, combined with vast progress in long-distance communications, have made the practice of law in Tokyo, Singapore or Hong Kong far more similar to that in New York or London than it was even five years ago.
Our recruiter friends, Evan Jowers and Robert Kinney of Kinney Recruiting, confirmed that we would be very marketable if we wanted to return to the states. According to Evan, “the biggest problem placing you in New York would be the relatively slack market in New York of late. It would not have anything to do with lack of experience. Ironically, a U.S. associate with good deal flow at a top U.S. or British firm in Asia can in many cases be more marketable in major U.S. markets upon their return from Asia than if they had not moved to Asia in the first place. Most top U.S. firms are going to place a high value on top-end deal experience in Asia, as well as a rising associate having expertise in both U.S. and Asia markets, especially considering that the China and U.S. economies may be decoupling anyway. Further, it is widely recognized in major law firms that U.S. associates in high-performing overseas offices typically are on a higher learning curve and handle more responsibility than their same class colleagues in U.S. markets.”
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Kinney Recruiting has made more placements of U.S. associates and partners in Asia than any other firm in the past two years.
[Disclosure: Kinney is the sponsor of this post.]
(48) Comments
Comments
The bar passage rate in China is something like 7%. That sounds about right to me. Top legal talent only, please.
yawn
I really appreciate the Asia posts. I am considering practice in Asia, and while I may not take all this info at face value, it certainly has helped me think about which questions I should be asking. I await with impatience each new installment of the Asia Chronicles.
These posts have no place here. This is Above the Law, not Above the Raw.
So what if you've practiced U.S. law in Asia? The post fails to address the issue it sets out to answer. What is it about practicing in Asia that makes you marketable? How long has it taken associates in Asia to find a comparable placement back in the states? Disclosure: I sponsored this comment.
One issue with going back to the US after a long stay in Asia would be the lack of having your own clients. You'd essentially have to start again in the US, and be at a disadvantage in making partner.
The other issue is common to all branch offices. It's tougher to make partner because it is not where the power is. This must be even worse in Asian offices since they are so remote.
Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying these posts.
Also enjoy these posts. Think you could do some on Europe?
nobody here *wants* you to come back from asia.
I emailed Kinney weeks ago and got no response. Asia doesn't want me.
I too emailed Kinney weeks ago, and got no response. These guys must be making seven figures like they say. Normal headhunters don't blow off potential candidates like that.
12:31 = someone from Kinney
No one really enjoys these posts.
Seven figures? Yes, 1,000,000 yen sounds just about right...
A post about the dynamics for lawyers who don't practice "cut and paste" law would be appreciated. In other words: Tax, bankrutpcy, litigation, employee benefits etc and what, if any, market exists for those attorneys.
I wait with impatience the day these Kinney hacks abandon this site and its comment threads.
I think I'm turning Japaneese, I think I'm turning Japaneese, I really think so ...
12.33am, Evan here. Your first point is well taken, if you happen to be a senior associate or counsel who actually has a substantial book of your own clients. Most non partners are never at that stage until they make equity partner anyways. Your second point I find to simply be false. Some US firms in Asia have major power players running their practices out there. Also, as an associate at a US firm in Asia, it is commonplace to have much more one on one mentoring from senior partners than in the typical US office (thus being much more politically connected at a firm worldwide, when it comes to career advancement within that firm). It is extremely tough to make partner at a top US firm, whether in US or Asia offices, but in some cases it can be easier to be on that path from Asia. Sure, there are pluses and minuses to being in Asia, when considering your marketability for a return to the US and partner prospects. I am happy to discuss the minuses, but your points are simply not valid.
Please address the question you set out to answer in the title of your post, instead of turning everything on its head and blatantly marketing yourself/Asia.
Evan - I've had the same experience as the other two posters of not getting a response from Kinney. What's up?
Is it fair to ask how many more Kinney posts we are going to get?
I would just like some sort of deadline for when they end. Each time, I think "This is the last one." Then I'm surprised a while later with another one.
Then I read the comments, and they're fully of Kinney recruiters saying things like "Oooo, these posts are amazingly helpful." FYI Kinney - I find the posts helpful to, but if you look at the comments sections in other ATL posts, you will see a much lower frequency of "Ooooo, these posts are great." It's pretty clear these comments are your own. No big deal, though. I
2:18, you've obviously got too much time on your hands ... reading posts that you have no interest in. Perhaps your practice area is too quiet, and you should be applying for a position in Asia.
As someone who is interested in working in Asia, I am just getting tired of hearing complaints about the Asia posts. If you are not interested, don't bother reading.
2.11pm, Evan here. I apologize if you or anyone else did not get a response after emailing Kinney. Feel free to email me directly at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com. Please note that the email address given in the article is that of the articles' authors and no one from Kinney receives those emails.
I am interested in working in asia. Would love to see some good posts on it. A post by someone with such a clear conflict of interest offers nothing but twisted truths. Perhaps posts by a writer that practices in asia. These evan posts are useless as he is just a recruiter who is paid to say what ever it takes to try to get people to pull the trigger on making the jump.
2.18, Evan here. It goes without saying that no one from Kinney is making those positive reaction comments. There are negative comments too. I guess you would think those are coming from our competitors? Recruiting at a high level in this industry, especially with regards to international lateral moves, is about much more than emailing resumes around and making silly comments on message boards. We enjoy both sponsoring and providing quotes for these ATL articles. The authors of the articles, US associates in China, are not influenced by us though and we don't choose the topics written on. At the end of the day, we hope to educate attorneys more on the Asia markets and make more people aware of our services in Asia. The articles are ongoing indefinitely with no end date. As time goes on, I imagine the topics will get more detailed and narrow, which you might find even more helpful.
2:36: This is 2:28 here. You raise an excellent point. Rather than taking a few seconds to complain about these posts, I think I will uproot my life by moving to Asia with Kinney's help. Maybe we can even meet up in Shanghai, have a drink, and make nice.
2:51 - this is too much.
Not influenced by you? You sponsor the posts. May I have a friend in Asia practicing corporate law write posts that reflect negatively on your firm, and have ATL publish them in its main blog? You lost points there, buddy.
Educate attorneys? Tell us about some of your competitors so that we can make an informed decision. Tell us about some of the worts of certain law firms. More points lost here.
May I ask how much you paid to ATL for the opportunity to become part of their regular editorial process?
Silly comments on message boards? People can't verify who is making the comments, or your claim, but we now know for a fact that the Kinney people read them and care about them enough to make comments.
"often find ourselves having to explain concepts and procedures that are common knowledge among Western businesspeople but unfamiliar to Asian clients"
I'm hoping that the above was reflects poor wording (in particular, "having to explain"). Almost reads as "damn, have to go over THAT again?!" I "explain" common knowledge issues to both domestic and international clients - that's my job. However, in the interest of full disclosure, annoys me more to explain applicable NY and fed tax laws to CFO of NY-based corporation - because that's more HIS baliwick, not mine as a corp atty. On the other hand, have much more patience with clients barely familiar with NY law.
come to asia... come to asia...
-Kinney
In the future, Kinney, please stick to legal recruiting stuff and refrain from making economic forecasts such as "China and U.S. economies may be decoupling anyway". Past recent months proved even noted economists wrong on this point. Can't decouple if billions of dollars in direct (much less indirect) trade.
2.51, the articles are not written about recruiters in Asia, they are written about these associates' personal experiences in Asia and their opinions about the market (if these are really associates writing the artices). A recruiter sponsors the post and provides a quote in the article. So what? How is that influencing the article itself? I am sure Kinney would tell you they are the best recruiting firm for Asia, just as other firms would claim the same. Why would a recruiter slam his firm clients in a public forum? What exactly do you expect this recruiter to tell you in the article with regards to problems some of his firm clients may be having? I would suggest that you call Kinney or some other recruiters if you want to know the dirt on firms in Asia.
i'm interested in moving to asia and would like to see more of these posts. even if they are a little biased, they still give me some good info. (and no, i'm not from kinney). it would be cool to hear from associates who are currently working in asia too.
Evan, shilling in blog comments sections is an old game. But you give it away by being too enthusiastic in your praise and then too harsh in attacking detractors. It defies credulity that anyone would be "waiting impatiently" for these posts or "really enjoying" them even if they really were informative. ATL's just not that kind of blog.
I actually enjoy the Asia series, and am not Evan.
Suggestion for future post:
Exit opportunities from the Asia market. What if, instead of returning to NY from a stint in Asia you wanted to go in house, or into banking, or to a development bank, or a sorghum farm?
"How long has it taken associates in Asia to find a comparable placement back in the states?"
12.33, Evan here. The answer depends. In a hot US market last year, the process was taking about one month on average, whereas in today's market the situation is different and is hard for me to put a time frame on it. Due to the state of the lateral hiring market in NYC, for example, there is no guarantee that even NYC top flight transactional associate candidates can make a timely lateral move to another top firm in town. The candidates seeking to move to NYC from Asia today are of course similarly suffering because of the state of the market. With that said, I have been able to make a few such Asia to US placements this year. Let's hope that things pick up in the US markets. In normal market conditions, a solid US associate in Asia can obtain a suitable offer back in US within a month.
I find the Asia posts mildly entertaining to read and enjoy their continued presence on the site. I am commenting solely to counter the anti-Kinney people and their weirdly high standard for ATL post quality.
In other news, I vote for a post on Paula Franzese.
The Asia Corporate Lawyers' plug of Kinney reminds me of the scene in Wayne's World when Wayne had to plug the sponsor, Noah's Arcade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4jLWlBnQ9U
Some of these negative comments remind me of the dorks that hang out on the greedy associate boards. I am also guessing that most of these are coming from "know it all" law students with too much time on their hands and no social skills to make better use of that time.
Even though I do find the shilling annoying, these posts are very interesting. They're probably not at all interesting if you have no intentions of ever moving to Asia for legal work.
As as associate working in Asia, I can say from my own experience that it was extremely difficult to find any information on the market and the realities of making this move when I was on my job search. Even the recruiter that placed me out here was pretty much clueless and of little help to me, even though she professed to have expertise in Asia and sounded convincing at first impression. While these posts may not be all that detailed and the sponsorship of them by a recruiting firm is annoying, I applaud the effort. I wish this serires of posts was around last year when I was considering my move.
Anyone know what the tax rate is in Asian countries? I have a feeling it will be a lot more BIGLAW friendly than what we have to look forward to after B. Hussein wins the presidency.
"Anyone know what the tax rate is in Asian countries?"
Evan here. It is about 16% in HK, but higher than US rates in China and Japan (however, having housing paid for directly by firm brings down effective tax rate in China and Japan to something reasonably close to US rates). In HK and Singapore, where the tax rates are lower than US, as an American citizen or resident you only get the tax advantage in your first 86k of income (you have to pay US tax rates after 86k, minus credit for the tax you pay the foreign jurisdiction). You do get tax benefits on your housing and housing allowance in HK and Singapore, so that helps too. Unfortunately though, the big tax windfall in HK and Singapore is reserved for non-US persons (if their home country does not have worldwide tax system).
I am also a loyal fan of The Asia Chronicles. I can't think of a better way to add to a lawyer's professional and personal growth. As for meeting friends there, can someone tell me how much two asian whores in Singapore will cost? Serious question.
Evan, on the tax issue, there are no work-arounds for the Chinese market? I refuse to believe that people who do work-arounds for a living can't find a tax loophole for themselves.
~Canadian citizen with top US JD and near fluent Mandarin
ENOUGH ALREADY!! These asia-related posts are terrible. Lat-Get rid of these d-bags ASAP.
I am delighted every time a new Lateral to Asia post is released. It is a great resource of information for a possible future move, highlighting not only the legal and career ramifications, but also the cultural adjustment of an American lawyer in Asia.
6/5@6:23pm: I second that! When making my move, I engaged a "highly recommended" agency specializing in Asia. However, after recruiter asked me for third time how fluent my Mandarin was, I switched agencies. Sure, it was probably just the individual but my language skills noted at top of resume and none included Mandarin. Something basic as that made me question how effective she was on more substantive items.
My advice to any considering move to Asia: as with any lateral move, consider everything you hear (from recruiters, interviewers, etc) with a healthy dose of skepticism. Anyone other than law school students knows what I am talking about - and if not, you're one of the few lucky ones.
Dearest Evan of Kinney China Recruiters,
Hello. Me name is Roger Lou and me am looking for the good job of lots of money like Wachtell in the market of Asia Corporate Lawyers. When me first come to the U.S. of A. to getting the law degree from America's University (Washington College of Laws), friends of the Roger in Asia says "don't be so naive, Roger, nobody in the great U.S. of A. will be hiring Roger Lou to do acquisition of major corporation of Exxon-Valdez oil spill or merger with AOL-Time Warner." Thank you very much.
So the Roger writing with much disdain and satisfaction of the Asia Corporate Lawyers to ask the metorphorical question "Why is the Corporate Lawyer of Asia writing to Evan?" Very good questions and Roger is going to answer them in turn.
The Roger is graduating with a degree of juris doctorate from the America's University with honors (in Latin, called "cum laude"). Me no know why I am not getting the jobs in the Wachtell or the Cravath or the Davis Polk, but me preferring to working with Evan of Kinney Recruiting Associates of Asia Lawyer Chronicals. Thank you very much.
If you are wanting to working with the Roger Lou in Asia, please giving him an email to Roger.Lou@Best_in_Asia.com. The Roger will write you an email back, like penpals in Hong Kong, and also will pay the 16% taxes on his income. Roger loving the U.S. of A. and being an Asia Corporate Lawyer in Asia not in Americas. I am thanking Evan now for his attention.
[Disclosure: The Roger Lou is the sponsor of this post.]