take the SECOND offer

Whichever TTT OCS you go to is completely idiotic. Associate positions are at will. If they wanted to rescind your offer or fire you the day you get there they can. Take the second offer before you regret it.

ethics committee? come on, that's absurd. career offices everywhere give bad advice because they look to protect the reputation of their school more than give students good advice. at-will employment is exactly what it sounds like...at-will.

go with the second offer. otherwise you'll be a bitter associate, angry that you're working just as hard at your first firm for less money.

George Costanza says do the opposite of what he says and life will be grand. That same rule applies to career services employees at a law school. They are only looking out for themselves and never students. If you turn down Firm #2, that firm will continue to recruit on your campus regardless. If you accept firm #2 and reject Firm #1, firm #1 may not continue to recruit on campus. If firm #1 discontinues its recruitment at your campus, someone from career services may have to actually pick up a phone or open up Outlook to contact a firm to replace Firm #1. Since that might turn out to be a lot of work, their best interest says to stay at Firm #1.

I agree with 2:11. The incentives of career services are not aligned with yours.

Career services doesn't want to piss off employers who come to the school. But you need to do what's best for YOU.

If you don't look out for #1, who will?

Contact Firm #1 and let them know that you have, unexpectedly, received a more attractive offer. Give them a chance to convince you to stay with them instead of going to Firm #2. If they succeed, problem solved. If they don't, you've given them more than fair notice, and are free to go with Firm #2.

If it is a better job, take the job at firm #2. You're going to be miserable if you don't, and you'll always be thinking about that opportunity you had for a better paying job at a better firm. Trust me on this, something similar happened to me - Job #2 was an interview, but likely to lead to an offer. I thought I "owed" it to the firm that I had accepted - what a mistake. Fortunately I ended up at Job #2 about a year later, but what a waste of a year!

Think of it this way, if Firm #1 starts going through some hard times, they can tell you not to bother coming to work before you start. If they can "fire" you, you can "fire" them.

As for career services, they may not like your decision, but screw them, it's your career. The better the firm you start with, the better your career will be overall.

Agree with 2:17. There's a good chance Firm #1 will understand your decision as well, even though they may not like it.

hire 2:17 as your career counselor.

Be careful. A couple of years ago, a 2L accepted an offer from my firm, and later rescinded his acceptance for unspecified reasons. My firm ultimately found out that he had rescinded his acceptance because he had gotten a better offer from another large firm in town. Someone from my firm contacted someone at the other firm, and they rescinded their offer to the 2L. I never found out what happened to the guy after that.

duh. it's your life. take the offer you want.

I agree with 2:17. It's fair to both Firm #1 and to you to give them notice of your better offer and give them a chance to respond.

And who knows? Maybe Firm #1 will match or beat #2's offer.

To respond to 2:28's point - be upfront with Firm 1; trying to be sneaky about why you are changing your mind won't reflect well on you.

That's such a weird story, 2:28. Why did the person at your firm care that much about a 2L? Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for someone who is pretty much fungible. And it's even weirder that the person at firm #2 would go through the trouble of trying to get this guy fired, and even if he wanted to be really vindictive for some reason, that he had enough clout to single-handedly pull it off. I guess what I'm saying is juniors trade up all the time and no one blinks an eye. So what was going on there?

Do you think either firm #1 or #2 will think twice before withdrawing the offer for self-serving reasons?

Another possibility is to do a split-summer between both firms....

@2:41, yes, except that splitting the summer would be difficult here since both offers are for permanent employment starting in October. Firms generally only allow splitting for summer associates, not for full-time associates.

I call shenanigans, 2:28. Do you actually have firsthand knowledge of this series of events, or did you just hear about it down at the pub?

I should have specified that the hiring partner from my firm contacted either the hiring partner or the managing partner (I can't remember which) at the second firm. Apparently they're friends. I'm guessing the hiring partner at my firm considered it a slap in the face, and maybe the hiring partner at the second firm determined that the 2L was a sleaze for not being up front about the situation with my firm (or something along those lines). Also, the 2L went to a low-ranked school and my firm doesn't interview there anymore as a consequence of this situation.
-2:28

When in doubt, always go for more money.

NALPs new policy will condense the hiring season.
i like it.

2:28 do you work at Paul Hastings?

It depends, but I seriously doubt you should trust the prevailing opinion here at ATL. Yes, the employment is at will. Yes, Firm #1 can't stop you.

But people will remember this. And there will be reprecussions. You are not likely to immediately lose both jobs; but you are likely to lose future job offers, future clerkship offers, and future partnership offers, because you'll be known forever as the guy who doesn't keep his word.

What OCS told you is absurd.

Be up front with firm #1 and let them know you got a better offer from firm #2.

But, I would NOT give them a chance to match, since you mentioned it is more than just money. If you are straight with firm #1 and don't burn any bridges, it should be fine.

To avoid the (likely BS) story in 2:28, you might even mention it to firm #2, while telling them how much you prefer to work for them for various reasons (and assure them you won't jump if offer #3 arrives!).

Take offer #2, make sure it is in hand (signed contract) then send your regrets to firm #1 enclosing the Starbucks card and other gifts.

Do not mention the second offer, simply tell them, politely, that you are unable to accept after all.

The threat of an ethics complaint is stupid.

In a similar vein, what is the etiquette about looking for a different job after a clerkship? Say you summer at a firm, accept their offer as a 3L, and defer because you get a clerkship. Is it more / less acceptable to look for a different job while you are clerking? It seems that many people would change their minds about what they want to do or would significantly improve their stock between their 2L years when they first pick that firm and their first years in a clerkship.

"At will" is a two-way street.

2:17's advice is probably not the best idea - there is nothing gained by discussing the situation with them. They are not there to hold your hand and give you career advice. It's not their job, and in this case, against their best interests -

It's important to start out with the best/ strongest platform possible. The stronger the firm, the stronger your resume, the more options you will have down the road. You can always swim downstream, but you may not have the chance at biglaw a second time - I vote for firm #2.

TAKE OFFER #2 AND DON'T BAT AN EYE ABOUT IT!!! Remember, if economic times get worse, offer #1 will have no problem rescinding that offer if they need too, that's why it has all that "at-will" language. Firms have no problem laying off associates for the firm's economics, soooooo

you should have no problem making your decisions based on economics as well. Business is business. At least you have an offer, I am a federal judicial clerk, and I still don't have any offers and the one I did have from a mid-sized employment firm, got rescinded.

I call crap on 2:28's story . . . sounds like an urban legend. Take #2 and be done with it . . . it's done all the time and trust me when I tell you, firm #1 will forget about you in the first 30 seconds and extend an offer to the guy/girl behind you.

Its not as simple as some of the people on this board would have you believe. Did you promise Firm #1 that you would not take any more interviews, and then break that promise? Or did you promise to withdraw your candidacy at other firms?

And what about your interaction with Firm #2 - did they ever ask if you have another offer, and did you lie to them? It sounds like you had some good timing and didn't get asked after offer #1 came, but if that's wrong and you told them you hadn't accepted another offer, and they find out about it I could see them rescinding.

I love you, Miley Cyrus.

This is a no-brainer. Be candid with both firms, and take the job you feel you'll be happiest with. You're going to have a lot of steps in your career, and you don't want to start it with regret. Trust me, this issue will be forgotten - by both you and firm #1 - in a matter of weeks.

I'm with 3:18. More Miley Cyrus coverage!! (Is that creepy?)

I revoked an acceptance and nothing ever happened to me. It is at-will employment. There is nothing unethical or otherwise wrong with dumping #1 for #2 - just be upfront about it and dont lie.

Career services has their own agenda. They don't want you to sully their good name in the eyes of #1. Ignore them.

Take more money or forever wish you did.

All of you should follow this advice and wash yourselves out of this profession. In law, you are making a living on your word. Learn that now & learn to live by it. And die by it. And make your decisions accordingly. I'm stunned that you can't seem to figure that out. Make whatever decision you want, but the CSO was right about the consequences. And what they didn't tell you (or maybe you didn't tell us) is that everyone - at both firms - will label you as the new lawyer/liar who can't keep their word. At BOTH firms and in the very small community that every legal world is, where your behavior will get spread around like so much manure. Great way to start a career. Good luck to you, you'll be needing it.

So, 3:48 - you believe no one should ever lateral? Also, no one (especially fellow associates) at Firm #2 would give a flying fuck about the offer from Firm #1. I am going to guess that 3:48 is a recruiting coordinator from some half-ass firm and has had this happen to him/her multiple times before...

People are correct that at will means at will and that firms won't hesitate to show you the door if it's in their interest, but remember that the legal community isn't that big even in most very big cities (the notable exception being New York). If you're going someplace besides New York, you'll quickly be surprised at the interaction among the firms and how many people in BigLaw do know each other. You only have one reputation.

"You only have one reputation."

Tell that to Bruce Wayne.

More Miley Cyrus coverage would not be creepy but rather HOT!

I agree with 4:02 to a certain extent. Reputation does matter. In fact, we really don't have much else. And alot of old line lawyers (read: senior/hiring/managing partners) will tell you your word is your absolute, unconditional bond (which, professionally speaking, it is). The issue is more complicated than that though when you are talking about your interests in relation to those of your firm. At alot of firms, the top brass likes to talk a big game about words like "loyalty", "profession" and "collegiality". Not reality though. This is a business, pure and simple. Don't ever let anyone tell you differently. Within the ethical boundaries, you look out for yourself when it comes to employment decisions. If you are honest and forthright about it with both firms, most people won't have a problem with it. Because most lawyers have faced some similar kind of decision at some point in their careeers. You spend too much time at work in this job to go to your second choice.

Of course, there's a significant possibility that your first choice might not be all you thought it was cracked up to be. But that's a different threat altogether . . .

As for career services, tell them to cram it where the sun don't shine with walnuts. If the staff is a licensed attorney, threaten to report that to the bar authorities for frivolously and baselessly threatening to report you. I don't think what they did was reportable, but, then again, what you did probably was not either.

OCS is a bunch of morons -- that's why they work in OCS.

How are you not honoring your word if you back out of an at-will employment contract? I understand the sentiment, but the agreement you entered into is that you'll work there if you wan to. If a firm wants "my word" that I will start there, then why don't they agree not to fire me but "for cause" during my first year?

In this economy, Firm #1 might be relieved at your decision to revoke the acceptance.

If you are not honest with Firm #1 your name will be trash with every partner and senior associate at that firm forever. And lawyers move ... a lot. Pretty soon, you will have a whole lot of lawyers spread all over the city who only know one thing about you, and it ain't a nice thing.

It's shocking that anyone who made it to the second year of law school can't figure this out without asking the mob for advice.

They wouldn't think twice about getting rid of you if their was a better candidate out there. You shouldn't think twice about saying see-ya. As for 5:49 - I agree that you will more than likely get trashed, but screw 'em. Your work at Firm #2 will speak for itself. Bust your tail and get a good reputation, then the opinion of that podunk firm won't have much of a bearing on your future job prospects.

5:49 - "ain't" - you shouldn't talk about it being shocking that anyone who made it to the second year of law school should be asking for such advice. If you are an attorney, you should be ashamed of your lack of vocabulary.

6:25

ain't is a perfectly cromulent word

Is this guy ABSOLUTELY sure he will never want to work for Firm #1 in the future? Is he ABSOLUTELY sure he will never have to work with Firm #1 in the future? If no, then he should act like a professional and honor his commitment to Firm #1 for at least a year or two. Who knows, he may actually find that he likes it there.

If he politely explains to Firm #2 that he regrettably has accepted another offer, they may still be interested in him in a couple of years. On the other hand, if he screws Firm #1, he can never go back. At least with respect to that firm, his reputation will be shot to hell.

6:25/6:28, you probably shouldn't criticize someone else's vocabulary when you can't even grasp the difference between "their" and "there."

- not 5:49

clearly, there is no "right answer", but i believe that 2:28's story does happen. seems possible. it's a small profession after all. people know each other, rejecting an offer can be taken as a slap in the face, and can put you on some influential people's sh*t list.

but i don't know if discussing it with Firm #1 is really that great an idea. "unspecified reasons" is not a lie, and telling a Firm you're rejecting them for another does not make you a good guy - at least not in Firm #1's eyes. honest, but not good. if Firm #1 will have it out for this kid for rejecting the offer, then knowing exactly where he ended up and why he left will merely them save some research.

it's vindicitve. it's petty. but hey, it's life. there are plenty of firms being taken to task for economic layoffs, so yeah, sometimes, law kids will get a reputation for turning down a lesser offer.

There might be some ramifications to backing out of Offer 1. It all depends on the type and scope of the offer. If Firm 1 had an axe to grind, they could potentially raise some sort of breach of contract/estoppel/reliance argument, but the incentive for Firm 1 to pursue the claim is not much other than vindictiveness. If the offer was written and allowed Firm 1 to rescind prior to your first day of employment, then Firm 1 would have a hard time coming after you legally if you backed out.

Your best and most honorable move is probably to go to Firm 2 first and let them know that you are interested in their offer but accepted another offer and need to discuss the ramifications of backing out of that offer with Firm 1 and get Firm 1's imprimatur. If Firm 2 is comfortable keeping the offer open under these circumstances, then let Firm 1 know about the new offer. Firm 1 doesn't want somebody coming in that they are going to train for a year or so and then lose to another firm at some point, and by approaching them this way, you make clear that you have a wandering eye. I can't imagine they would do anything other than wish you well and send you on your way.

If Firm 2 isn't comfortable with letting you do that, then you know you're stuck at Firm 1 anyway.

Alternatively, you could just lie. Your mom got sick, your cat died, your significant other got TB and you need to be by her side at a sanitarium, etc., etc., so you have to back out of the offer. Despite what other posters here claim, I have actually witnessed respected and reputable lawyers lying. It's true. I know it's shocking, but it has happened at least once in the annals of law firm employment. Don't tell anyone, but I've actually seen repuatable lawyers lie, cheat and obfuscate in letters, at depos and in written submissions to the court. It rocks the very foundations of justice, I know, but I also understand the authenticity of the Easter Bunny is questionable too.

Finally, who cares what a mid-level firm thinks? Unless you're practicing in a very small market, there are lots of mid-level firms that never see the light of big law, much less hob-nob and share stories with the partners of big law about wayward associates. If you're really worried about the issue, register your public address with the State Bar at your home address for the first couple of years until you think the stink has blown over.

7:33, you're an idiot. Why would you disclose to firm 2 that you're backing out of your deal with firm 1? Who does this help? Firm 2 doesn't care, but discussing it with them will cause unnecessary drama for you.

And firm 1 couldn't possibly have a legal claim. It's at will employment. At will, dumbass, means you can terminate the relationship at any time for any reason.

7:33
I don't know if your last paragraph is entirely accurate. I'm in Chicago (one of the bigger markets in the country) and, at least in my practice area, the mid-size guys mix pretty often with the large firm guys. Lots of connections, even friendships, between those crowds. I think it is because there are a lot of big firm refugees in smaller firms (and sometimes vice versa). That said, most lawyers under the age of 50 have moved around some and understand the reasons for taking a better offer, even coming from an prospective SA.

Don't overestimate the degree to which firm #1 will remember or discuss your decision after you leave. With the exception of the recruiting committee and your summer associate advisor, no one at the firm is likely to know or remember whether you accepted in the first place.

That said, some employers attach a weird value to that period between acceptance and start date -- no one would blink if you quit after your first year, but they get offended if you "quit" before your start date. It doesn't matter if anyone at firm #1 falls into this category, but you should think about whether anyone at firm #2 does. One way to handle this is to tell firm #2 about firm #1, as suggested above, and give them a chance to nix your offer if the situation bothers them.

Do not tell firm #1 about firm #2 until you actually call to quit. Even if they were willing to make a better offer (unlikely) they will remember your "disloyalty" at review time.

Just be up front with Firm #1. Don't burn bridges with anyone - who knows, you might be able or even want to go back there someday. Tell them the truth.

Firm #2 won't care. Just take the job. No need to have discussion with them about the issue.

So this is what I think about the 45 day timeline.

My firm's summer associate program ends on July 18th. They say they make offers in about 2 weeks. So let's say August 1st. If the clock starts to run then, I have until September 15th.

My school's OCI is the last week of August. Callbacks don't begin for at least a few weeks after that. Callbacks for most my friends last year were in October, but even those in September were in the second half.

So how am I supposed to make my decision by September 15th when I won't have any callbacks by then?

This is a problem

To the author of the original email query - Happy you asked?

I faced the exact situation coming out of my clerkship. I had accepted the offer to return to the firm at which I summered, but the location was less than ideal for family reasons. New firm in a better location made me an offer. I called the original firm and explained the reasons why the new firm would be a better fit, said that I understood that I had made a commitment to the original firm, and asked if they would release me from that commitment. The original firm understood and told me to contact them again if my circumstances ever changed. If I had received a different reaction, I still would have simply told them that I was reluctantly rescinding my acceptance, but I gave them the opportunity to be reasonable first-- and they were.

By the way, I did all of the above on the advice of the career services folks at Georgetown. I have no idea on what grounds one could be reported to a bar ethics committee for rescinding acceptance to a job offer; that kind of baloney sounds like scare tactics designed to protect the school's interest in keeping the first employer happy with its on-campus recruiting process. It is in your interest not to burn bridges when you rescind acceptance of an offer, but that does not mean that you have to go so far as to pass up a better offer, particularly when the start date is so far in the future.

12:14 -

There is a special rule for the firm you worked with as an SA. They are supposed to keep your offer open until at least November 1 and can extend it, at their discretion, to December 1. The 45 day rule does not apply to that firm.

I like the back-to-back advice in 10:16 & 11:51.

10:16 - Just tell Firm #2. Whatever you do, don't tell Firm #1.

11:51 - Just tell Firm #1. Whatever you do, don't tell Firm #2.

I could be wrong, but I think that it's against NALP rules for a firm to extend an additional offer to any law student who has already accepted an offer at another firm.

11:27, i'm sure you're missing a "knowingly" somewhere.

1. I agree with comments that career services are generally useless and only looking out for the school/themselves.

2. It's "at will." They won't hesitate to rescind your offer if they need to so you should feel free to do the same.

3. I agree about not being sneaky. Make sure firm #2 knows about your offer with firm #1. I wouldn't care too much about firm #1. Some managing partners are a little crazy or sensitive about this stuff which could explain the odd story about firm #2 rescinding the offer above.

4. Clerks often interview with firms even though they've accepted with the firm that they summered with or the firm is holding their offer open. I know someone who had already accepted the $30K clerkship bonus and paid it back to accept with a different firm. so it shouldn't be a big deal.

- i'm a clerk and interviewed with several firms even though i had accepted my offer with the firm I summered at. My resume had the firm I summered at with "offer extended." Some people asked me why I was looking elsewhere but no one thought it was bad or that I was unethical or immoral.

7:50-

Jay Potter, is that you?

When this is all over and you have your job, make sure you tell the Dean about CSO telling you that you were at risk for being reported to bar. That is BS and someone at CSO should be spanked.

I think that under the circumstances, revoking with firm 1 and accepting with firm 2 is fine. To me, the issues are where:

(1) someone accepts with firm 1 and takes significant financial benefits from that acceptance (e.g. receives bar expenses paid), then tries to revoke and go with firm 2. Dishonest, and unethical. If you commit and receive benefits based on that commitment, then at least return the benefits or make sure your second firm does.

(2) this happens in clerkships. It's different where there's a one-on-one relationship and you commit to a specific judge. If you weren't serious about going to him or her, another student/alum would've received that chance immediately. Now you've inconvenienced the judge you first accepted with, due to your own messed up application process, you've insulted him or her, you've caused other applicants who might have received that offer and finalized their plans to potentially miss out, etc. Whole different kettle of fish - which is both rude/quasi-dishonest AND does your reputation with judges in that district/circuit location no good. With firms, they're big entities who'll figure it out. Not as much a concern.

Hold open the offer with firm 2 for as long as possible. Firm 1 may hit hard times and give you 6 months salary and rescind the offer. That used to happen all the time. Get what you can now. You'll be glad you did in 4 years when your life sucks and there is no way out.