wtf? the A-list is 20 firms, not 10

12:49 - Yes, that's why the post says "check out the top 10."

Probably not wise for Lat to reproduce the full list of 20 in its entirety.

Poopin' in a hat

Williams and Connolly gets a zero in both pro bono and associate satisfaction. Hmmm...methinks the study is either A) flawed or B) skewed towards firms that like to pander to these kinds of meaningless rankings and then tout them on their websites. Either way, it's bullsh*t.

Wachtell also gets a 0 for pro bono.

I think you get a zero if you don't cooperate / provide info to the American Lawyer.

12:54: right...therefore since the survey is only as good as its inputs, it is skewed toward panderers. -12:52

It appears that Debevoise fell due to a nose dive in associate satisfaction. Does anyone have a clue as to why they are so unhappy?

A List is complete BS. Only relevant stat on there is RPL

Re: Debevoise, from the AmLaw article:

Some Debevoise associates, according to our annual Midlevel Associates survey [August 2007], were burned out. Common complaints included "intense client demands," "heavy workloads," and "stressful atmosphere." A handful also mentioned that they were tired of working on internal investigations, a Debevoise specialty.

Status-obsessed lawyers - forever measuring their worth by comparing themselves to others and resultantly forever unsatisfied.

"12:54: right...therefore since the survey is only as good as its inputs, it is skewed toward panderers. -12:52"

This is the case of all surveys..... Vault, Chambers, etc, etc.....

"12:54: right...therefore since the survey is only as good as its inputs, it is skewed toward panderers. -12:52"

This is the case of all surveys..... Vault, Chambers, etc, etc.....

status-obsessed lawyers = tautology

The #1 factor listed is "revenue per lawyer"?

Tsk, tsk. Where is our noble profession headed?

My research skills have failed me. I see top 10, and links to 21-200, but where the heck can I find the list of those ranked 11-20?!

Pro bono should not be considered in these rankings. Giving away more hours than the shop across does not in any way demonstrate legal abilities. Maybe it makes you a better corporate citizen, but that is a different survey. Diversity is only slightly more relevant to determining the quality of service a law firm is capable of providing. I know the party line on diversity is that diversity of lawyer backgrounds will produce better legal work. But I haven't seen any empirical evidence backing this claim.

RPL is a fairly good indicator of the the volume and quality of work a firm is producing.

Revenue per lawyer is a better measure than profits per partner, which allows for more gamesmanship and rewards highly leveraged practices.

@ 1:02 "A List is complete BS. Only relevant stat on there is RPL"

Why would you say that? RPL is the *least* relevant stat unless you have equity. I could give a shit about my firm's RPL as long as I'm being paid market. Higher RPL just means associates are doing more work for the same pay. So I guess RPL is relevant in terms of higher RPL = less enjoyable place to work.

Associate satisfaction is obviously the most relevant stat for non-partners (i.e., 99% of the non-law students on this site).

No, 12:54, it's my understanding that Wachtell actually has a policy against doing any pro bono work. You know, because they need the money (and hate social justice).

The #1 factor listed is "revenue per lawyer"?

Tsk, tsk. Where is our noble profession headed?

1:20, you simply misunderstand the goal of the rankings. Nowhere does AmLaw state that this is a ranking of legal abilities or volume of work. *That* is a different survey. In fact, what AmLaw explicitly states is: "We want to recognize the firms that have achieved the best balance of private gain, public service, workforce diversity, and quality of life." Pro bono and diversity are, by definition, relevant to that goal.

RPL is not nearly as meaningful as PPP. RPL skews to firms in NYC, LA, and other high-cost cities. But it ignores costs and efficiency. If you want to know which firms are well managed, PPP shows it. True, PPP can be manipulated by de-equitizing, but still profitability is the best financial measure of any firm or business.

Repeat after me, 1:28: "The A-List is not intended to be a 'financial measure' of firms."

the firms with the highest RPL have higher quality clients and higher overall quality of work which is not cost sensitive, so they are able to charge higher rates , success fees and percentage of deal value billing. associates at these firms do not work significantly more than at firms with lower RPL. as an associate, you should care about this stat because it is indicative of the quality of clients/deals/cases you will be working on. this important even if you do not plan to stay at the firm long term because of the exit options

No shit, 1:30. But the "A" list choses to use only one financial metric, RPL. It should use PPP, imo.

1:28

Eighth worst for associate satisfaction?! Maybe I should consider saying "no" if the offer comes at the end of the summer...

Utter BS, 1:32. Look at the numbers. Associates at firms with the highest RPL (and PPP) *do* work significantly more hours (see the associate hours survey results for, e.g., Wachtell and Cravath). At Wachtell, you're at least compensated for it, but at Cravath, you're simply accepting a lower hourly wage (hopefully you're not being irrational enough to expect partnership).

And "non-cost sensitive work" and "quality" cases is just code for "partners (with their high rates) will hog all of the interesting work while associates do what is essentially paralegal work." So yes, I guess you should care about this stat.

All of these lists are so subjective that they are nearly worthless. General measures...sure. Precise rankings? No. Magazines sell a LOT of ad space and copies based on the lists. The surveys are incomplete and the underlying methodology weak. The magazines want to maximize profit and minimize costs. I am sure their survey team is bare bones. I am also sure the sales team that pushes the ad space is nice and beefy. Again, we should take these rankings with a grain of salt.

how weil makes it out of the double digits on associate satisfaction is a mystery.

1:32, are you serious, or is it the kool aid talking?

Simply because your firm gets higher rates for its cases does not in itself make them interesting. Pause and re-read that.

Firms with high RPL may have a lot of work that is very labor-intensive and boring (i.e., a lot of documents are involved, and staff atty review is not sufficient), but high-margin, as such work frequently is.

I think RPL is a good measure of the financial health of the firm and perhaps of its management. I don't think it suggests the matters it gets are inherently more interesting--and certainly does not suggest that the work *associates* get is.

Anyone know if Bingham McCutchen made the top 20?

re: debevoise associate satifsfaction dip. one word: siemens.

Man, it sounds like there's a lot of sore losers on the thread today.

It just sucks to eat Latham's dust in yet another ranking, eh, DPW/CSM/WLRK and the various TTTs that didn't even make the top 20.

Ah, haha.

1:20 here,

In response to 1:27, you make a fair point. And I almost bought in completely. However, the A-List starts with the following statement:

"we applied the A-List algorithm to The Am Law 200 to determine the firms that best embody what it means to be a success in the legal community...."

This statement implies that the firms that score the highest on this survey are the most successful law firms. Financially speaking, this simply is not true. I guess I am saying that I disagree with AmLaw's methodology to determine a "successful" law firm. With regard to pro bono, the inclination to give away product does not indicate that one particular business is somehow more successful than a competing business that gives away less product.

1:39-- first, these QOL surveys have pathetically low response rates. I wouldn't put too much stock in the average hrs worked number from a survey that has a 10% response rate. There is undoubtedly a high selection bias. It is also particularly nonsensical to put a lot of weight on these numbers when most firms averages are reported as being within 5 hrs per week of one another.

second, when the work is overall of a high quality, there is no need for partners or anybody else to hog anything. no, you are not closing billion dollar deals single-handedly during your first week, but you are given responsibility (gladly) when you prove you can handle it, because that means less work for the guy one step up the chain from you.

third, focusing on the fact that base salaries are the same across the board only works if you take a short term view. Most lawyers will be out of their firms within 5 yrs. The real question is what will you doing (and making) then. This is when having quality exit options becomes key, and that is the advantage of the top RPL firms.

1:49

You must not know much about weil in the last five years. Check the midlevel associate satisfaction survey.

Not sayin' it's a walk in the park, but compared to other NYC sweatshops weil is a decent place to be nowadays

1:50-- nowhere in my post did I write "interesting."

Any survey that has such random variability each year has so much noise in its data that the survey is useless.

Thanks for the condescending response, 1:55. I am a fourth-year associate at a "high RPL" firm, so you don't need to lecture me. Please note that 5 hours per week is roughly a 10% variance though. I would call that "significant." If you have kids, the difference between getting home at 7:30 and 8:30 is certainly significant.

Please also see 1:50's response to your original post, particularly the penultimate paragraph, which is spot-on.

Cheers,
1:39

speaking of midlevel associate satisfaction surveys, when does this year's come out?

DPW, nowhere to be found. Didn't DPW top this list three years in a row relatively recently?

I'd also like to point out that this A-List, unlike the various threads on TPW that had all of the TPW trolls bitching yesterday, is actually something that clients look at when they consider which firms to hire.

Diversity and pro bono are on there because they matter to clients.

Bitch all you want, non-ranked firms, but this list actually matters.

2:03, I am addressing the points you are making. Sorry if you find this condescending. You're overall argument seems to be that RPL is inversely correlated to the quality of a firm from an associate's standpoint, which implies that we should all try to work for firms with the lowest RPL. Obviously, RPL is not a perfect measure of anything, but of the stats listed on the A list, I think it is the only one that even approaches a measure of the overall quality of a firm. I take your point about that extra hr each week night being more significant than it seems on paper, esp when you have kids who go to bed early.

EVERYBODY GET BACK TO WORK!!

Does anyone know if the actual MBE questions are on the same level of difficulty as the Barbri questions?

Does anyone know if the actual MBE questions are on the same level of difficulty as the Barbri questions?

I was going to fill out this A-List survey about how satisfied I am with my biglaw job, but it was 2am on a Friday when I was done with my other work, and it was either fill it out or go home and cry/drink myself to sleep. I chose the latter.

2:08, diversity may matter but not nearly as much as personal relationships and doing quality work. It is not my experience that clients care about the quantity of pro bono. Pro bono engagements are almost never included in a RFQ/RFP, at least in my practice area.

2:08 -- Are you stoned? No clients look at the "A" list in selecting counsel. Many consider diveristy; not sure any consider pro bono.

This list does not matter at all. No need to gun on this board if you want to work for American Lawyer; just call them directly.

Registration required? Fail.

2:21 - I found the actual MBE questions harder than the BarBri questions on the July 2007 exam. That being said, I only looked at BarBri's easy and intermediate questions (they recommended that we did not need to do the advanced/hard questions for my state).

2:21 - the real ones are much harder.

"is actually something that clients look at ..."

Um, we really don't.

The order of the importance to me, an incoming first-year, are (1) Associate satisfaction, (2) Pro Bono, (3) RPL, and (4) diversity.

Associate satisfaction goes without saying. But for me, pro bono work is important because it gives a young lawyer the chance to take real responsibility for a case and do more nuts-and-bolts work, instead of working on some discrete issue in some giant faceless litigation. Pro bono lets a young lawyer get hands-on work and experience dealing with clients and making real decisions in steering a case - experience that's tougher to come by otherwise in a big-firm environment. And it may sound cheesy, but firms with resources like the ranked firms here should be giving back to their communities and doing their part to live up to the aspirations of the legal profession.

So, big ups to the A-list. Even though it's really intended for clients, there's important metrics in there for us young attorneys-to-be.

If the real MBE questions are harder, then why do people do so much better on the actual MBE than they do while studying through Barbri? Also, the MBE website itself issues 18 ridiculously easy questions. Should I be ignoring those??

the real MBE questions are not harder, are you people on crack?

2:21 - I took the CA Bar and found the MBE questions to be easier than the Barbri questions. The factual backgrounds are much shorter, unlike the full half-page of the harder Barbri questions, which saves you a considerable amount of time. Also, I felt that the MBE questions were far more straightforward (i.e. less tricky) than the Barbri questions (the most difficult questions---the easy and intermediate questions are pretty simple). You either knew the information or you did not. If you follow the majority of Barbri, you're more than prepared. The hardest part about the Bar is the pscyhological component---don't freak out and you'll be fine.

Lat, how about a bar exam thread?? Any more comments on the MBE out there? I'm really shocked at the disparity between the Barbri questions and the questions on the actual MBE website.

The actual MBE questions are a bit more difficult - don't let the site fool you. But what really threw me was how difficult the essay portion was. I studied like a maniac all summer ('07) and I still puked in my mouth a little as I read the questions. WTF. But if I passed, I'm sure you will.

Can someone post the rankings on this board? I don't feel like being a member...

Terminology confusion:

At the federal appellate court level, do we consider appellate courts' reviews of petitions to have a case reheard en banc to be en banc decisions themselves? I.e. does the entire damn court decide on whether to rehear en banc? Is there a universal practice or does it vary at the circuit level? What the fucking fuck is wrong with these motherfucking semi-transparent procedural rules fucking terminology confusion bitch. Sorry. Furstrated. Insight?

2:58 - a bit more difficult than what? barbri has many different levels of questions. are you sure it just wasn't the pressure you were under that made you feel that way?

for anyone still in doubt, just look at the NCBE site or the released questions in the barbri book. the released questions are much easier.

I'm positive I'm going to fail the NY bar exam. This is awful.

why would a client care about this list? i don't understand why firms trumpet this as if it means they're the best of the best. (and i worked at one of the top tens.) law students and prospective lateral hires? sure, they'll care.

diversity? hahahahaha

Are BarBri or PMBR questions better preparation for the NY MBE?

The "released" questions are always easier - they're not going to give away their tricks for free. The point of the bar is to cull the wheat from the chaff.

But, like I said, it's the essays that will make you sh!t your pants. If that happens, just keep writing. At least you'll have a better chance of passing than the girl silently weeping in the next chair over.

-2:58

STFU about teh bar exam.

2:01 i have friends that work at wgm. (one of whom recently lateralled out.) perhaps their experiences are non-representative, but i am not uninformed. 1:49

1:49, I can say fairly confidently that I have it better at weil than my friends at 'comparable' firms that used to be #1 on the A-list, which shall otherwise remain unnamed. Not pretending it's 9-5 or peachy all the time, but they do a good job of trying to keep us happy.

I want to hear more about the NY bar. Both about essays and the MBE. ALL advice is appreciated...we're dying over here...

NY bar threads please, MBE & essays. It's < 2 wks away.

How did everyone do on the bar bri practice MBE? it was tough

I scored a 141

I did HORRIBLY on the bar bri practice MBE. I have no idea why I suck so much at this. Any tips? I've been working my butt off, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

I got a 91 :(

what was the average?

ny bar exam is killing me as well

3:01 if i understood your question correctly here is you answer:
A majority of the active circuit judges may decide to hear or rehear a case en banc. im assuming that you are familiar with the other en banc elements such as its not a right and each court of appeals also has particular rules regarding en banc proceedings. only an en banc court or a supreme court decision can overrule a prior decision in that circuit; in other words, one panel cannot overrule another panel.
good luck on the bar!

I've been studying my ass off and I am fucking doomed.

Well we can't all fail the NY bar...right?? There seem to be no actual released standards for what the MBE ACTUALLY looks like, and what I've heard about the essay portion scares me shitless. What can we to do allay our fears/get better at the MBE/pass??

3:41 to begin with stop wasting time here and try studying a little. those that will pass you dont here from because they are studying!

This bar stuff is hard. Fuck.

"What can we to do allay our fears/get better at the MBE/pass??"

You can take solace in the fact that if you fail the bar exam in July, your firm start date will be pushed back so far into 2009 that you can retake the bar exam in February and no one will know that you failed the first time.

I found PMBR to be far superior to BarBri for the MBE in CA. Don't even waste your time w/ BarBri, go straight to the PMBR materials. Some of the questions were repeated practically verbatim on the CA state bar exam.

"What can we to do allay our fears/get better at the MBE/pass??"

You can take solace in the fact that since your law firm start date will be pushed back so far into 2009, you can fail the bar exam in July, retake it in February, and no one will know that you failed the first time.

this list is good for one thing:
poopin' in a hat.

Shut up about the bar on this thread. If you can't pass the NY Bar with minimal study, you are an idiot. The pass rates for those from good law schools are all well over 95%. It's an easy exam. Now please shut up.

This list is just what many of Lat's readers need. A boatload of us are studying for the bar right now, and it's just a couple weeks away. We're scared, we feel stupid and we have no idea what's going on. I, for one, could use some more advice on the NY Bar. It's not true that you can pass with minimal study. Even though the current pass rate for first time takers is around 79%, there are plenty of smart people who fail. I'm sure you remember the hell of the bar exam. Now how about some advice?

4:03 though i think that one should pass with good study habits, again which by sitting on atl is of no help, however, 4:07 has a point

FUCK THE BAR
FUCK THE BAR
FUCK THE DRAFT
FUCK THE BAR

4:30 makes good points, though he's reaching a little bit on the minimal study point.

I took both the CA and the NY Bars. From an intellectual standpoint, they're not difficult (though the 3rd day in CA makes you want to leave the country). If you're struggling with the essays, then you either 1) can't write (and it literally is fairly basic--you should have your JD revoked if you can't write at this level) or 2) don't know the material well enough.

They're much more endurance and psychological trials than anything else. You can't cram for them or just fly by the seat of your pants and bullshit your way throught them, but if you put in the work necessary to know your law and don't breakdown from the pressure, then you'll be fine.

It is true you can pass the NY Bar with minimal study, 4:07. I had plenty of classmates who did so. Skipping 50% of Barbri classes, doing zero practice essays, zero multiple choice, and then cramming for 2 weeks. I did the same thing for the CA Bar which has a much lower pass rate, and passed. If you're not an idiot, you can do it too. If you are an idiot, then get to studying and off this website.

Disagree with 4:32. You can definitely cram for the bar exam and pass just fine. I do agree on the psychological point though. If you tend to be stressed out by exams and need to overstudy to feel comfortable, then by all means do what you need to do. But if you've always been comfortable cramming for exams and not studying as much as the next person, there's no need to waste your summer doing all the completely unnecessary work Barbri attempts to scare you into doing.

POOPIN' IN A HAT

More importantly, the bar exam has absolutely nothing to do with this post.

Re: Bar Shit

go here: http://abovethelaw.com/community/2008/07/open-thread-bar-exam-study-upd.php#comments

i thought 3 or 4 of these firms had folded...

Not sure anyone interested in the A-List is still reading, but for those who want to see the entire Top 20, go to:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202422260304

Please, create a separate post for Barbri comments. And to those who claim that they studied two weeks and skipped 50% of the lectures, I call b.s. The biggest slackers start studying hard after the practice exam, basically four weeks.

Best of luck to those taking the exam and don't get distracted with this blog.

NY essays are hard!

The people who respond to quality of life surveys are probably those who are the most upset.

Wah. My firm's not ranked, so these rankings are b.s.

- Bitter ATL commenter who works at TTT
(Top Tier = 1-10, Second Tier = 11-20, Third Tier = the rest)

Good one, 12:08.

A-List or bust.

Good one, 12:08.

A-List or bust.

Since less than 1% of the people reading this will make BigLaw partner, the only number that should matter to you is the associate satisfaction number.

Associate satisfaction is also probably materially correlated with the pro bono number, so pro bono is really being counted more than once here, notwithstanding the observation above that clients seldom if ever ask about it. (I agree, I've responded to those RFPs - they ask about diversity, but not pro bono.)

The pro bono number is inherently deceptive as well, at least at some firms, to the extent it might be an indicator relevant to the average associate. I work at a firm that has a middling overall pro bono number, but only a small number of associates actually participate, in large volume for some of those people, while people in other, busy groups are strenuously discouraged from engaging in pro bono work. This kind of thing is kept quiet so if you really want to do pro bono work, you should ask around a lot, including in places where people will not be afraid to answer you truthfully.

All you bartakers out there - relax. it really is a psychological game more than anything. think positively and you will pass. even if you do panic, you may pass but it's easier if you don't (a friend completely melted during the new york bar last year but she passed). I found the MBE questions during the real bar to be easier than the Bar Bri practice test but not as easy as the Bar Bri easy/medium but anxiety of having the questions actually count could have upped the difficulty level. The essays were much easier than feared (I took the CA bar and it was the first year with cal civ pro, evidence and something else). so bottom line - take the day off before the test and try to relax (better said than done, i know). good luck! you will be done soon!

I just love knowing that my DNA may be beneficial to a firm's ranking. Seriously? Just as bad as that NYU thing...