Associate Life Survey: An Offer For Every Summer?
We received about 1,000 responses to last week’s ATL / Lateral Link survey on whether all the summer associates are going to get permanent offers.
Overall, summer associates have a somewhat more optimistic view than practicing attorneys. While roughly 82% of summer associates expect that their entire class will receive permanent offers, only 62% of practicing attorneys agree. Ominously, the more senior attorneys were the least likely to think that all of the summers would receive offers, with 46% of attorneys from the Class of 2003 or older expecting that at least one summer would not be invited back.
The biggest concern raised by attorneys was not work product or misconduct, but rather the weak economy. Roughly 61% of the attorneys who expected no-offers said that there was not enough work to justify a full round of hires.
That said, 15% of attorney respondents noted work product that was not up to par — sometimes also conceding that “the definition of ‘up to par’ changes with the economy” — and 12% cited bad behavior — often in pretty colorful terms.
Another 12% cited a combination of poor work product and social issues. E.g., “One of them smells like ass and has practically sh** on half the projects he’s been given this year.”
Read more colorful comments, after the jump.
Perhaps because of the economic concerns, a surprising number of the attorneys who expected less than universal offers also expected that the dings would hit more than just one or two summer associates. While 48% said that only one or two summers would get dinged, 29% thought three or four would get cut, and 23% expected that at least five summer associates would not receive permanent offers.
But should all the summers get offers?
73% of summer associates say yes, but a slight majority of practicing attorneys, 53%, say no. Only 26% of the naysaying attorneys cited the economy as a concern, while 33% cited poor work product, 19% noted social mishaps, and 22% thought that some of the summers had both bad work and bad conduct.
Summer associates were even more likely to focus on social (dis)graces, with 80% of summers calling for a no-offer to a peer described as a “weirdo,” “obnoxious,” “unbearable,” “idiot,” “douchetard,” or “tremendous douchebag.”
Ah, summer bonding. If only there were more lunches …
—
Justin Bernold is a Director at Lateral Link, the sponsor of this Associate Life Survey.
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Comments
FIRST to say that I was the one who called my co-summer a douchetard!
Do you think that the economy will rebound by the summer of 2010?
No, 2. Drop out now.
No, it's just going to get worse. Every lawyer should bone up on bankrupcy law.
what's with the cat picture?
On the bright side, if I can hold a job after law school (still looking pretty good), I'll be able to afford a house immediately...
yes 6 don't let the stats scare you, buy that huge house. you'll be partner in 8 years, no worries
I felt a no offer coming. So, I found the oldest most powerful male partner. I proceeded to give him the best night of his life. I now feel an offer coming.
-Touro '10
Meh, the shitty economy means my debt isn't going to cost me as much to pay off.
Things could turn around. There's far less talk of war and the economy is due for a turnaround. Also oil is down a lot.
poor kitteh :(
Things will calm down after the presidency is decided come January of next year (regardless of who wins). Don't freak out...act like you've been through a down-turn before.
I recommend that all of the gossipy summers get no offered.
I beg you, above the law, could we PLEASE stop with all of the "will summers get offers" posts? They serve no purpose other than to spread rumors and make summers nervous, which is just stupid. Can't we go back to real stories about actual legal issues?
umm...i hate to burst your bubble 12, but this isn't just a down-turn. the world will never be the same, we are in a tailspin that will come to an abrupt end on dec 21, 2012.
Open note to all summer associates -- even though people may joke (even within your firm) that this is "summer camp" - you are solidifying your lack of an offer if you TREAT it like summer camp. Stop being tremedous douchtards. I don't care what anyone tells you, it is a summer-long interview, regardless of how big or small a firm at which you work. If you have half a brain and understand the economy fears, your ass would be working hard, staying late, and showing enthusiam for every 50 state survey that lands on your desk. Good luck campers.
12:24: I heard it would be August 29, 2012. That's when Skynet becomes self-aware.
14 -
Are you lost?
16: what are fifty state surveys? Is my confusion problematic?
Nice, 17
poor summer kitties won't all get jobs
finally--thanks #5--the whole kitten thing is utterly corny. please end this odd fetish.
finally--thanks #5--the whole kitten thing is utterly corny. please end this odd fetish.
But will the end of the world discharge my student loans?
hats off to you 17, you out nerded me on that one
-15
24: nope. Read the lender's fine print. Mine says, "End of the world does not constitute the dissolution of any outstanding loans."
15, 17 - I am class of '11. If the world will end in 2012, how does this affect my clerkship options? Should I try to get a job immediately out of school so as to have more money for hording canned food? Also, which T14 school has the best program in Zombie Law? I see this being a burgeoning practice area in the future, and I'd like to get in on the ground floor. Does Cravath have a rotation in it?
i've plan on the rapture getting me out of my debt.
2012, ATL becomes self aware.
LOL CATS RULZ
the economy is in the crapper and you tell me summers are behaving and working hard because they are nervous... and yet... everytime I give one of them an assignment he or she is off to an expensive lunch that my billable hours and the hours of other associates at my firm have paid for... "oh sure" says the summer ... "I'll stop by after lunch" translated to "I'll come by after I'm done stuffing my face... at 3:00" -- can't they pay for one of their own meals? I mean seriously -- why do we pay for these self-indulged brats?
skynet- killer-
27
i for one would like to see some jurisprudence concerning mens rea in zombies
31- relax. weren't you a summer once?
27: I would focus on Torts class for Zombie law. Survival and wrongful death are going to be key concepts for your success in that field.
34 - I was a summer but we went out to lunch once a week and lunches were not so fancy... heaven forbid you take these summers to lunch at a salad bar somewhere .... Two seasoned attorneys in my group just got laid off.. they are out on thier a$$es and yet my firm continues to coddle these "teenagers" who know nothing ...
#36 is just bitter that he found hair in the drain this morning.
36 -- I agree - it's disgusting.
36
Layoffs...what firm? I need to narrow down my OCI list.
27: good one, loser.
36: they have BigLaw experience. Can't they find another workplace?
37 -- I am bitter and disgruntled and I've been in a bad mood for the last 8 years (all spent at BIGLAW). Summers piss me off. "Waste" pisses me off. The summer program needs revising ... it's an extraordinary waste of money... we are struggling for work... partners and senior associates are frantically pitching for business... and yet we are spending money and energy on the b$ summer program. Summer program should be scrapped ... I've got to sign out now ...
John Connor here. I've already been practicing on my mom and sister for the smack-down I'm going to give Skynet.
37 -- I am bitter and disgruntled and I've been in a bad mood for the last 8 years (all spent at BIGLAW). Summers piss me off. "Waste" pisses me off. The summer program needs revising ... it's an extraordinary waste of money... we are struggling for work... partners and senior associates are frantically pitching for business... and yet we are spending money and energy on the b$ summer program. Summer program should be scrapped ... I've got to sign out now ...
Lolcats are awesome.
44: why don't you start your own firm and decide how to manage overhead there? There's a reason why the firm lavishly spends on their SAs; I doubt that brilliant lawyers wouldn't spend some time thinking about their business strategy and bottom-line.
More cats, please.
At White & Case, 11 cold offers have been decided upon already. There will be more.
48: let's just say they didn't "warm up" to those summer associates.
Guys in my high school used to get offers during poor economic conditions...it was no big deal.
What happens when you get a "cold offer"? What happens when you decide to take the offer at its face value and ignore any winks,nods, nudges, that it is a cold offer? In other words, you ask the hiring partner when your starting date is. What does the firm do then? Do they offer you a severance package after you work with them for a few months or what?
Inquiring minds want to know. Surely there have been ballsy or stupid associates who ignored "cold offers" and proceeded to accept the job offer on its face value.
Things will only get worse: this is going to make the Panic of 1873 look like the Paris Bourse crash!
My firm isn't "frantically pitching for business" and expects to give out all offers (except maybe a few "douchetards"). I guess that's why they call it white shoe...
Does school prestige affect the likelihood of receiving an offer? Are they more likely to take the Yale guy over the T20 guy?
Hey 53- "White Shoe Firm?" Good for you, big-timer! That and ten weeks on the treadmill will get you down to just slightly overweight and obnoxious, you prestige-whore douche.
53 = cold offer from ttt firm
I agree with 13.
Wholeheartedly.
I guess if don't get an offer you can work for AIPAC---it needs more help to carry out the conspiracy.
I'd really love to know what firm #31 / 36 / 42 / 44 works for. He/she sounds really miserable and his/her firm seems to be foundering. Pls inform us so that we do not select your firm for OCI's and waste any more of your firm's precious (scarce) resources next summer!!
I understand that practicing attorneys who were never "coddled" and who are still living the high life while experienced attorneys are laid are not pleased with the treatment of summers. And sure, if a summer blows off work, then that summer deserves scorn. But we didn't create this situation, we just take advantage of the perks, as would you if you had the opportunity. I haven't heard of any associates declining portions of their salaries because they're overpaid. So maybe you should quit your whining and be thankful you still have a job. Or how about addressing the people who make the policy decisions: the partners and hiring committees? But I guess it's easier to blame it on the brats.
Well, the first sentence I wrote at 60 doesn't make any sense.
It should read: I understand that practicing attorneys who were never "coddled" RESENT SUMMERS who are still living the high life while experienced attorneys are laid OFF.
I regret the typo, but not the implication about summers getting laid.
You know, I really have to agree with 60. It always amazes me when older attorneys (partners, counsel, what have you) bitch about how spoiled/ overpaid junior associates are. Maybe we are paid more than you were back in your time as a junior, but 1) we are almost certainly not going to be able to live off the firm gravy train for more than a few years, as you were practically certain to do, 2) we are expected to do much more, 24/7, through the miracle of advanced technology than you were, and 3) our cost of living has gone through the roof. Plus, it is hardly our fault that you have made the firms into meat grinders that spit 90% of us back out after 5 years. But, I'm sure it's much easier for you to pretend that juniors are spoiled and it's the SUMMERS' fault that people are getting laid off. What a freaking joke.
62: you overlook the fact that those same partners who bitch about junior associates being overcompensated are crying all the way to the bank with their $1m+ PPP (not to be mistaken with TTT). Then the partners bitch to their clients about how those darned first-years demand so much money and have to bill out at such a high rate to recoup it (of course, the firm could always eat the difference).
62: you also overlooked the massive debt with which our generation is burdened. In the early 70s, a family friend managed to pay down her debt by working as a waitress through the 1L summer.
Like it or not, the new billing reflects the uncertainty and work that this generation has to face. You're right on the money, 62.
64: TITCR. 160k is a near-absolute necessity when it's par for the course to see a debt load that surpasses 150k for Law School alone.
1:27, doesn't White & Case have over 100 summer associates? Compared to usually having 50 or so? Word I've heard is that associates were told there was not enough work for both associates and summers. Reading between the lines means hitting hours needed for bonuses will be tough.
w&c's summer class went up like 170% according to an earlier post on ATL.
like #51, i'm curious as to what happens when a summer accepts a cold offer. in this market, i can see a lot of summers taking cold offers.
White & Case = Off the OCI list
I suspect there might be some self-selection. Senior attorneys that participate in ATL surveys are probably not representative of the market writ large.
I think most of you are misunderstanding the phrase "cold offer." A cold offer is when a firm says we are not going to hire you, but we will print out an offer letter that you can show other firms and tell them we did give you an offer (and we'll back that up if they call us). There is no option to "accept" a cold offer.
#70
I think the question is whether the SA can take the printed offer letter and make, say, a detrimental reliance claim.
71: um, no. It's employment at will. Offer letter does not equal contract. They could show up on day 1 and get fired for no reason and would still have no claim. Well, they could try, but it would get dismissed immediately.
#66: yep. This is just the beginning.
71
Not so fast. The offer letter could be argued to be an implied contract for employment which is an exception to the at-will rule.
I admire the balls of anyone who seriously takes up a cold offer letter and tries to sue for employment.
71, 72, and 74
Covenant of good faith exception could also apply here as an exception to the at-will employment rule.
Haha. That kitty is unemployed. Poor kitty.
75, this is the real world though, not law school. No judge is going to award anyone any money for an argument like that. The person could hardly be considered unemployable and unable to find any legal job.
It is kind of sad to watch a 1L already strategizing what he/she will do when he/she gets a cold offer.
Talk about setting yourself for a fall.
You shouldn't talk about things you don't know anything about. 11 cold offers at W&C wouldn't make a material difference. My friend says they told their summers from last fall that the class size wasn't the summer's responsibility and offers would be made as usual. You should wait to see the numbers at all of the firms with big classes. Also, whoever thinks that Cravath's large summer class was "planned" should learn a little more about how PR works.
You shouldn't talk about things you don't know anything about. 11 cold offers at W&C wouldn't make a material difference. My friend says they told their summers from last fall that the class size wasn't the summer's responsibility and offers would be made as usual. You should wait to see the numbers at all of the firms with big classes. Also, whoever thinks that Cravath's large summer class was "planned" should learn a little more about how PR works.
79: Of course the class size isn't the fault of the summer. But that doesn't mean that any firm will just give offers to everyone that doesn't F up. The problem is that they have twice as many summers as they usually do. Which means that if they all get offers and all accept, they'll have way too many associates compared to the work available. Any firm that overhired will have to deal with the consequences sooner rather than later. It may be best (from the summer's perspective) to have it done now, so that they have all year to look for another job, rather than a few years out of law school.
there is no way that the top 30 firms all give offers to 99% of their summers this year. absolutely no way. i doubt it will even be done via cold offers. i imagine a 90% offer rate amongst a lot of the top firms plus cold offers on top of that.
there is no way that the top 30 firms all give offers to 99% of their summers this year. absolutely no way. i doubt it will even be done via cold offers. i imagine a 90% offer rate amongst a lot of the top firms plus cold offers on top of that.
there is no way that the top 30 firms all give offers to 99% of their summers this year. absolutely no way. i doubt it will even be done via cold offers. i imagine a 90% offer rate amongst a lot of the top firms plus cold offers on top of that.
6:47
tell us, do you think 99% of the top30 firm SAs will get offers this year?
knowsbetter is hilarious in that he doesn't know any better. cravath's overhiring was planned, but not to the extent that it ended up being. its target was in the 130-140 range. don't quit your day job knowsbetter.
Yay to cute photos of kittens!
At White & Case, they will be summarily executing summers until they bring the class back down to a reasonable size. No really, it's true.
keep the lolcats, lose the summers. I can't wait to ask probing questions to 3Ls in OCI.
I love reading these comments. They truly show the ignorance of law students (who will wisen up) and the jadedness of Associates.
Ummm, Summers, those jaded Associates used to be Summers, and when you get out, you will probably complain about the coddled class of ne-er do wells that you have to tolerate when you're an Associate.
This is nothing new. Summers have been stupid since the dawn of these programs, and Associates have believed that they weren't coddled in like manner since shortly after the dawn of these programs.
Still funny to read, though.