While I agree that there's a general perception in the industry (not just at my firm - all of my friends elsewhere share this) that summers get very little work, and the work they do get is typically far better than they deserve, anyone who complains about this either has only him/herself to blame, or works for a firm with a crappy summer work assignment system. As a second-year associate, I can't always requisition a first-year to work below me, but the firm is always happy to give me a summer to help, and they're usually more than happy to have something real to do. I had a closing last year that I wouldn't have been able to get through without help from a summer, and I've delegated a lot of legitimate work to a summer this year as well. I'd be billing an extra 20 hours a week or so if I didn't have summer help.

Summer associates should be getting work that gives them a 'taste' of what the various practice groups at the firm do.

To be honest, being a summer associate is less about billing and doing substantive work and is more about networking and getting to know the attorneys at the firm. This is so that when these summer assiciates begin their careers as first years they have an idea of what they want to do and who they might like to work with. It also means that they know other attorneys at the firm on whom they can call if they have questions, need specific help from a different practice area, etc.

Those summers who are overly concerned about getting and doing substantive work to the detriment of the networking necessary to thrive in a big law firm will, eventually, be left behind.

LA V10 summer here -

There is some meaningful work to be done, especially if you're willing to do some discovery/other boring litigation work. However, it is very hard to get interesting (or even remotely significant) transactional work right now... I blame this on the economy much more than the firm.

On the plus side, I am getting very fat from all these meals - so I've got that going for me, which is nice.

The idea of giving "substantive" work to a summer is a little misleading. Maybe it's just the summers working with me, but I wouldn't give a summer an assignment to do without already having a good idea of what the answer should be (I mostly give out litigation research/writing assignments). I'm not at the point of trusting the thoroughness and ability of the summers.

Litigation Summer Associats: nothing you get is going to be “good” work because you’re not qualified to do anything other than maybe do some writing that will need to be substantially edited before it is useful. It's not because you're dumb. It's because you have no experience. Hell, most first year associates are not capable of putting together excellent written work product.

For most midlevels/seniors, summers are a double edged sword. One one hand, most summers are pretty eager, want to learn and are willing to help if called upon. On the other hand, in the transactional context, most require so much supervision that it can become very time consuming to have a summer working on a deal below you (through no fault of the summer). On stuff that is not time sensitive, it is much easier to bring in a summer and let them see what its like. And I have no problem doing that. On stuff that is on a tight deadline (which is a large majority of assignments), summers frequently get in the way and cause more work.

Why does the writing have to be so thoroughly edited? Is it because 1L associates are verbose, or they don't have the hang of legal jargon, or what?

Agree with 1:12. I feel for summers who end up doing "litigation-type" assignments for transactional groups, but that's the reality of the market right now (for my V20 firm), and it can be very tough to supervise when deadlines are tight. As one of the quoted commenters states, summers are typically given ridiculously long deadlines (when was the last time I was told I had three weeks to do something?! typical deadlines are "by tomorrow morning when I get in" or "by Monday morning when I get in").

We had a couple of summers assist with a closing (drafting certificates, keeping the closing room in order, keeping track of documents and emails, running conforming changes, etc.), which was a huge help. Not thrilling stuff (at least once you've done it 20 times), but pretty good junior-associate-type work and a taste of what they can expect next year.

In my experience, first-year associate writing needs to be substantially edited because most first years don’t have good lawyerly judgment yet. For example, they might spend two pages pontificating about the standard for a motion for summary judgment when all they need is a paragraph. (Everyone knows the standard; no need to belabor the point.) Or they might put a really important argument in a footnote. (If it is important, why bury in a footnote? If it's not important, why include it?) Or they might use three words when one will do. Or they might try to “sound” like a lawyer, using phrases like “inter alia” or words like “hereinwith.”

I think good legal writing only comes with time. You need experience seeing what works and what doesn't.

-1:12

I get the feeling that the assignments I get are things the attorney either already knows or complicated stuff that he/she has no clue about. Some of the stuff seems like the kind of thing where you could spend days and days and come up with nothing. The fact that we (generally) aren't billing to clients makes it cheap for us to do that kind of stuff.

Chicago Summer

1:35 - they just don't know how things should be said and/or how a particular senior associate/partner likes to see them. This is coming from a corporate/M&A perspective, but until you've read/worked with a bunch of agreements you don't know how a particular business concept should be translated into a binding provision to which both parties might be likely to agree.

1:45 - congratulations, you get it. Some of the work, as others have noted (e.g., assisting with a closing), is actually helpful (and billable to clients if they're big clients (e.g., underwriters, banks)).

seriously - what is with the cat pictures?

Although it's generally accepted that summer associates don't do real work, that rule is not followed by certain firms, and within firms, by certain practice groups or even partners. It's annoying when posters pretend that their firms' habit of not assigning summer associates real work reflects the absolute reality at every single firm in America. No so.

When I was a summer associate, I was given real assignments. Then again, I work at one of those top-notch litigation boutiques that is leanly staffed, has tons of work, and expects everyone to pitch in (even summers). We are the exception; not the rule. Our junior associates work on projects that would be handles by senior associates and partners at other firms. So we're an outlier. That said, our summers work. They work on real projects and they work hard. And they don't bitch about it. They want to work; they love the work we do; they are happy to be here.

2:07 - plz 2 vue icanhascheezburger.com. kthx.

2:10 = Quinn (deceptively using capital letters).

What should one include in a successful 1L cover letter? How does your firm decide which 1Ls to hire, if any?

2:10: what type of grades/school would I need to obtain employment at such a boutique as yours?

It's amazing to me how every firm claims to give senior work to junior people. Let's get serious: (1) Some people do better work than others or have a greater aptitude for a certain type of work. These people get assignments traditionally beyond their class year. (2) Some firms/departments/partners staff more leanly. Juniors in these situations will likely see more senior work than they otherwise would. (3) Some offices/departments/teams are small. Juniors in these situations will likely see more senior work than they otherwise would.

I'm tired of hearing that firm XYZ gives juniors the work of seniors, or that "I was at a depo/closing/negotiation and there were only 2 people from my firm and there were 12 from the other." Lame! Do good work, be lucky, and good things are likely to come of it.

2:15 --

We hire random 1L's here and there. I have absolutely no knowledge of how the 1L selection process works. It seems like there's really not much to go on at that point, in terms of limited law school transcripts. So I'm assuming that they take everything else into account: law school, college, college transcripts, work experience, etc.

Lower ranked T14. Roughly top 40%.

2:15 - Be specific: why this firm, why this office, why this city. Do research, but boil it down to a few choice sentences/reasons.

Frankly, for 1L hiring, much depends on where you go to school. Our 1Ls are almost all HYS, with a few CCNBVM. The 2Ls are a bit more varied--T20, some hardworking regionals/locals for flavor.

Why do some summers not get offers then, if the work is not real and easy?

2:10, I gotta call BS on part of your statement. Juniors (1-2 years out) doing work that would be done by partners (7-10 years out) at other firms? That mean juniors basically running cases? And not the bullshit, form pleading 20K collection cases done as favors to various connected parties. I'm talking about garden variety large scale commercial litigation. I don't care how talented the JAs are or how leanly matters are staffed. No firm with any kind of risk management apparatus in place does that.

Do you still consider 3rd & 4th year associates "junior associates"? If so, then I stand by my original statement.

I will be a 1L @ UNC this fall. Would a San Fran or SoCal firm hire a 1L UNC student for as a summer associate? How are 1L summer associate job chances in general for UNC students? Any biglaw /boutique firm partners or UNC alums out there who know? I'm worried about job prospects in the West Coast, but it was too tempting to turn down the cheap tuition and scholarship (and tar heels basketball games)

I will be a 1L @ UNC this fall. Would a San Fran or SoCal firm hire a 1L UNC student for as a summer associate? How are 1L summer associate job chances in general for UNC students? Any biglaw /boutique firm partners or UNC alums out there who know? I'm worried about job prospects in the West Coast, but it was too tempting to turn down the cheap tuition and scholarship (and tar heels basketball games)

I will be a 1L @ UNC this fall. Would a San Fran or SoCal firm hire a 1L UNC student for as a summer associate? How are 1L summer associate job chances in general for UNC students? Any biglaw /boutique firm partners or UNC alums out there who know? I'm worried about job prospects in the West Coast, but it was too tempting to turn down the cheap tuition and scholarship (and tar heels basketball games)

2:32 - Tons of reasons: they sleep with people they shouldn't; they drink more than they should; they rub someone important the wrong way (by acting entitled, doing poor work, having a poor attitude, being late, acting uninterested, having poor manners, etc.); or more conventional things (which will happen this year more often than in recent years, I think) like the firm overhiring summers.

2:23 and 2:27: thanks. I'll be attending a CCN school and striving for a secondary market. Should I name-drop my school in the cover letter, or leave it in the resume?

Oops sorry for the repost so many times...the browser was not loading and didnt realize I bombarded this board. My bad.

I am not a summer anymore, but in retrospect, I am still unsure whether the work that I did as a summer was "real" or not. Does that make me dumb?

I also felt like if you worked hard and it showed, people took a natural interest in you. I thought that made for better networking then simply going to events (although you should try to go to the events).

2:10 = W and C, I bet.

Do any of you feel that after 4-5 years out you really don't know anything and have built a real pracitce/speciality area?

Do any of you feel that after 4-5 years out you really don't know anything and have not built a real pracitce/speciality area?

2:42 - Congrats on CCN. For a secondary market (do you mean Philly or Raleigh?), I'd probably leave the school name out of the cover letter (or maybe just something along the lines of "I'm a first-year student at CCN Law School"). I'd stress ties to the area and state why you're specifically interested in each firm.

FYI, when we see candidates, the recruiter (a staff person) and hiring partner (...supposedly the committee) will review the package (cover letter, grades if you have them, and resume) and decide whether or not you're getting an interview. The interviewees will then get your resume and transcript (but not cover letter--not sure why, but presumably so we don't know the answers to some of the questions we'll be asking and so that we're not biased if you appear to be a very good or very bad writer). I'm sure other firms do it a little differently.

Good luck.

- 2:27

Meant "interviewers," not "interviewees."

- 2:59

Haha. That kitty's in jail. He's a bad kitty.

2:41: That's likely going to be a tough sell out here (I'm in SF/SV) for 1L summer (much less of a problem for 2L, assuming that you do well)--just giving it to you straight-up. Even lesser firms can pull Stanford grads for their 1L summers (granted, with no chance in hell that they'll ever come back).

If I were you, I'd puch really hard on how badly you want to be in SF/SV or SoCal, respectively, and network like crazy with UNC alums, alums from your undergrad, family friends, etc. It's always possible, but 1L jobs are tough to come by except at the very top.

2:41: Forgot to mention (and I would have though that this goes without saying, but I get some pushy emails from students at my alma mater), when networking, be cool about it: mention that you'd like to talk about practice, their specialty, how to break into the market, etc. Don't come straight out asking if they'll hire you. Maybe this is obvious to you, but it's not to a lot of your peers.

What's the point of hiring prestigious HYS 1Ls who won't return?

What are your thoughts about switching within practice areas? Like M&A to another type of Corporate or different specialites within litigation at different firms?

3:20 - No idea, but firms do it every year. A few theories: (1) it builds goodwill--ranging from holding the firm in good light to considering the firm for lateral opportunities, (2) it lets the summer class be large/brings some diversity without the fear that everyone will be starting with the firm the next fall, (3) it lends some prestige to the firm, (4) a few actually will return, and (5) delusion about the firm's standing in the eyes of law students.

We certainly give real work to summers. It's more varied than a first year associate would get, sure. It's likely to involve more interesting technologies. But how else am I going to find out how the summer performs under real world conditions than by giving her work? I don't care if the summer is the best networker, and eats lunch using the correct utensils. I care about whether she can perform up to our standards, understand what needs to be done, and do it in a reasonably time efficient manner. Yes, she'll take much longer than my associate, but that's built into the evaluation.

I don't get firms where the summers are partied and wined and dined. How the hell do they actually evaluate those SAs at the end of the summer to figure out who to give offers to? Best BJ to the senior partner?

What's CCNBVM?

What is "real" work? The litigation summers at the biglaw firms I have worked at get to do formal research memos. Those are "real" in a way, but I haven't had to do more than a handful of formal research memos as an associate so I don't know if it's representative of "real" associate work. I've never seen summers given "real" work that junior associates at my biglaw firm do like discovery management, privilege reviews, quality controlling document reviews, drafting complaints or interrogatories or document requests, writing deposition outlines, taking or defending a deposition, writing motions, meeting with expert witnesses, etc.

What are your thoughts about switching within practice areas? Like M&A to another type of Corporate or different specialites within litigation at different firms?

4:02 - doesn't matter, they're all getting offers.

4:14 - check USNWR.

6:09 - who is doing the switching? Junior associates? If you want to switch (for your own sanity, for perceived job security, to work with different people, or because you like the work more) and the firm is cool with it, switch.

4:14--

I think:
C = Columbia
C = Chicago
N = NYU
B = Boalt/Berkeley
V = UVA
M = Michigan

4:02--

It's more about making the summers like the firm than the firm evaluating the summers. Though evaluation of summers does happen, the firm has pretty much privately already committed to taking most of these kids based on their school and grades alone. If they are poor workers or socially inept, that changes things. (Also, as a previous poster mentioned, in this market or with a larger than usual class, more might get the axe.) However, overall, not giving offers to summers is very rare; as in all admissions statistics, the next class is watching. Firms have to report their statistics to NALP, so they don't want it to look like they hire summers and then no-offer them; otherwise, no one would want to work there.

Besides, most law students from the good schools have other options (so could reinterview if they have a bad summer), so the firms need to impress to some degree. No one wants to feel like their classmates at X firm have it better...

6:21 pm junior/midlevel switching to another firm's practice area. how difficult is it when its the same overall area (LIt/Corp) but different sub specialty?

1:12 - As a summer associate at a huge BIGLAW firm I drafted a big portion of a trial brief that was used almost verbatim. I also put together a Power Point presentation that some partners used almost verbatim in a CLE talk. And I got to draft a petition for writ of certiorari, but that one was very heavily edited (understandably so). In addition to actual drafting, I got to write a couple in-depth, highly analytical research memos on some sexy topics - one First Amendment related, the other in support of an argument to be made in a law review article that a partner was writing. I really enjoyed the work I got to do as a summer, but I know the firm does go out of their way to stick 1st and 2nd year associates with the grunt work. Summers aren't asked to do 50 state surveys that often, and when they are it's broken up so that each summer never has more than 10 or 15 states. And summers NEVER do doc review. I know the other shoe is going to drop next year when I'm an associate. My bigger concern is the networking and politicking required in an office with hundreds of attorneys. I'm not one for hob-knobbing or schmoozing, and I am no good at putting up a facade in order to network with people that I have nothing really in common with. There are a lot of people at the firm that I truly like though, so I hope that the relationships which come naturally to me will be enough for me to subsist on. But who knows - sometimes I get the feeling that succeeding in a huge corporate law firm environment is more about playing games like you're on a reality TV show than it is about merit or work ethic.

6:52 - If you're doing as good of work as it sounds like you are, then I wouldn't worry as much about the schmoozing.

6:29 - It can be tough. Remember what it's like to feel like a first year? It will be pretty similar, but you're expected to pick it up much more quickly.

As a personal anecdote, I've seen and heard of this happening when people leave a very specific group in a NY-type firm to make the switch to a broader, CA-type practice (and vice-versa). If you've only done fund formation in NY, but then join a "corporate" practice in CA where you'll be expected to handle M&A/PE, venture work, securities, general corporate, fund formation, lending, and finance, you'll be learning a lot on the fly (and not necessarily able to show off the 3 years of fund formation expertise you've developed). Also, the clients can be a lot different.

Probably nothing you haven't thought of.

You also have to think about future opportunities - you're likely going to be a few years behind your peers if you're starting from scratch in a particular area of the law.

6:29,

But life is short. So if you're willing to take a hit in years/salary, etc. is it easier to do? I would imagine it it is easier to swith from X Litigaton to Y Litigation then Litigato to Corporate. Would you agree? Again, espeically if you are willing to take a hit in years/salary?

Do any of you feel that after 4-5 years out you really don't know anything and have not built a real pracitce/speciality area?

I'm in MIDLAW and get plenty of "real work" as a SA. I doubt much of it actually gets used to any significant degree, but the matters themselves are still quite substantive. More than that, I know for sure that at least some of what I'm doing is important to the firm (e.g. helping finish out a big e-discovery/doc production push). We do get a few 2hr lunches every now and then, but unlike with our BIGLAW companions, these things are relatively few and far between.

I'm the 2:10 poster. We give summers a range of assignments--- all qualify as real work. Right now, I know that 1 summer is working on a motion opposing certification in a massive class action. A partner gave him a 20 minute briefing, suggested a couple possible arguments, and told him to take a shot at fleshing those arguments out, finding good cases for support, etc. This particular summer has been busting his ass, at least 10 or 11 hours a day. Another summer is working with a partner and senior associate on developing a client's antitrust claim. There is at least one summer who focuses mostly on pro-bono work. So some of it is legal research and writing; some of it is more appropriately called case development; and some is pro-bono. All of it is real, meaningful work.

Our firm has a lot of bankruptcy work right now (big shock these days) and while a lot of what I've been doing is boring, it's "real" to the extent that it needs to get done, and having me doing it frees up other people to do more important work.

Heck, occasionally they even let me write a motion or two. I'm sure it's edited to death before it gets filed, but it's actually interesting (to me) and good experience for me.

If you are just starting law school and you are not a group that contributes to a firm's diversity numbers, the single most important thing you can do is get the best grades you can. Law school is serious business. You may want to continue undergrad habits like partying, cutting class, etc. but just know that the options you will have available to you are related to your grades, The higher they are, the more choices you have. You don't want to worry about a soft job market, do well. You want to get a 1L summer job, do well. You want to clerk for a federal court, do well. You want people to think highly of you, do well (this is fleeting, but smart = protection).

If you are in the top 5 or 10% of a law school like UNC, transfer after your 1L year. Anyone who tells you different is full of it.

Equity Partner

I wanna be 6:52 when I grow up.

2:40 - It's going to be tough, especially as a 1L. I went to UNC undergrad, so I understand the temptaton of basketball, but I went west for law school. I think you'll need to spend your 1L summer with a NC firm. Maybe you could try for a national firm with a NC office. Several have ones in Charlotte. You could then ask about splitting with their SF/SV office, if not your 1L summer, then I'm sure they'd let you do it your 2L summer. That would set you up with a job after graduation. But if you're dead set on going to SF/SV, you should probably try to transfer to a higher-ranked school.

in my experience at a biglawfirm in CA if you're planning to be at a firm for a while - i think it's important to build relationships with people you want to work with when you return as an associate. everyone is nicer to summers than associates so it's easier to make those connections.