Bar Exam Studying: Open Thread
(Plus a request for advice on prep courses.)
If you’re studying for the bar exam, congratulations on making it this far. You’re almost there; the exam will be over before you know it. In a few weeks, you’ll be lying on a beach somewhere, enjoying some fabulous post-bar travel.
How are things going for you in the home stretch? An ATL Community thread on the subject is generating healthy commentary, so let’s bring it to the front page:
How is everyone’s progress on studying for the bar?How did the simulated MBE go for everyone?
General thoughts?
Based on the responses thus far, it seems that folks are worried, but unduly so. Relax; you’ll be just fine. Those practice MBE scores are plenty high, and you still have some study time left.
If you don’t pass the bar exam for some reason, like these famous bar failers, you can just take the test again (and again, and again; hi Paulina Bandy!). It’s not the end of the world. Bar failers have had successful careers in law, politics, media, and academia, among many other fields.
Of course, failing isn’t fun, and it does make for awkward interactions around the office or with classmates. So what’s the best way to study? From a reader:
I’d love a thread about bar exam prep courses. I’d especially like to hear from people who decided not to take one. Biggest mistake of one’s life, or best idea ever?
We took Bar/Bri and PMBR (the three-day review), and we found them both very helpful. It’s nice to have a plan of attack that you can mechanically follow — lawyers love fixed trajectories — as well as a third party imposing some discipline on your study habits.
But we also know lots of folks who got the books, studied on their own, and did just fine (and saved themselves or their firms a nice chunk of change). Readers, any thoughts?
Update: We went back and reviewed the 200+ comments on our earlier open thread about BarBri. The comments we found most entertaining pertained to Professor Paula Franzese, who teaches property. She inspired passionate detractors and defenders. Selected comments, after the jump (or just click here).
Open Thread: Bar Exam Study Update [ATL Community]
SELECTED ATL READER COMMENTS ABOUT PROFESSOR PAULA FRANZESE
(Taken from this thread.)
“This may be a minority opinion, but Paula Franzese was one of the WORST Barbri lecturers. I don’t want to hear you sing. I don’t give a shit about how your dad invented vodka sauce. She added at least half an hour to every lecture with all of her garbage.”
“Don’t be mean to Paula. The fact that you remember all that stuff means she did her job right.”
“Paula Franzese can defease my fee tail any time. I wonder if she’s into equitable servitude.”
“Hey assholes who say mean shit about Franzese, she’s not trying to cater to you. Barbri is to help stupid people pass the bar. The singing and other memory aids are proven ways to help people retain information. You might not have needed the singing, but I bet there are a lot more stupid people who did. She’s just doing her job well.”
“Franzese is a monument to Plastic Surgery and Annoying incompetence. When I wasn’t dazzled by her MILF status, her god-awful accent and idiotic stories/songs had me cringing in my seat. One more day of this i’m going to go nuts.”
“Professor FranCHEESY was awful! Her songs did nothing but annoy, and her stories failed to amuse or to educate.”
“Franzese is totally hot, and I just saw her for the first time today. I loved her songs and I remember everything she said. So screw you guys (who complain about her). I think I’d transfer from my T10 to Seton Hall if I could guarantee myself front row seats in all of her classes.”
“Franzese today, for the first time in my life made me feel absolutely ashamed of being a Brooklyn native! Literally had my head down on the table crying listening to her lecture, and sign, and attempt to impersonate random Hollywood figures…. can someone please make her stop!”
“Whitebread, Epstein, Schecter and yes, Franzese were by far the most entertaining professors. Paula drove me crazy at the time, but she managed to teach me property law in three days (something my property professor failed to do in three months). At least well enough to tackle the landlord/tenant question that started my morning. I will never hear the song “It takes two” without thinking of Paula!”
“Franzese was retarded today. Just shut the hell up and teach us what we need to know. Your stupid stories don’t help because we can’t relate to your bimbo, botox juiced mind. And we don’t want to waste 30mins listening to your nonsense.”
“I thought Franzese’s Dr. Evil routine was pretty good. However it’s pretty ridiculous for her to tell completely non-law related stories about Justin Timberlake and vodka sauce. It’s one thing if they just happened to come up on the spur of the moment but the fact that she seemingly does it EVERY YEAR should be kinda embarrassing.”
“Don’t hate on Paula just because she looks like a how successful female lawyer should…face it - pretty people rule the world and the ugly ones just grunt in jealousy… grunt away”
“Ok, she’s definitely hot - and funny in that crazy girls are hot kind of way - but is she a good teacher? Don’t know about that one…”
“Paula’s an excellent professor because she embodies all a professor should be…she genuinely cares about her students, gives of herself wholeheartedly and enourages others to strive for excellence. Her little quirks are purposeful tactics she uses to encourage rapid memorization during the few months that is bar review. And while she uses some of these same devices in her classes, she has high expectations of her students and her exams are difficult. Yet most of her students leave her classroom understanding the material despite it being arcane and complex.”
“I just got out of her lecture in West L.A. Barbri and I have two words: Sheer pain. The anecdotes were long and off topic. The singing was just plain stupid and does not make any law memorable. The only good thing about her is that it appears that she has gotten some pretty decent face work and overall makes for an attractive cougar. Rawr!”
(230) Comments
Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
Should SEN be drafting this first, before Lat?
SEN hasn't taken the bar exam yet.
Above the Law hurts my Bar studying plan.
what happened to SEN?
how many study hours does it take to pass the NY bar?
My study plan: BEER!
(and yes, passed NY on the first try, etc.)
Should I go to the 3 day PMBR or just do the PMBR and review on my own? (so little time left - PMBR is this weekend for me)
132 on the simluated BarBri MBE. I got a 6 on the latest essay; a 7 on the first one. 6 on the graded MPT.
I've kept up with all the subjects (went to class and outlined), but not ALL of the assigned essays. I'm all caught up on the BarBri practice MBEs in the MPQ.
Assuming I continue to study, am I a shoe-in to pass?
Guys in my high school used to fail the bar exam all the time, it was no big deal.
i took both Bar/Bri and PMBR, and mostly kept up w/ the assignments. probably overload, but better than failing and wishing i had tried harder.
people fail the bar for two reasons:
1. blew off both law school and bar prep
2. freaked out at exam time
that's it. avoid doing either of those two things, and you'll be fine.
Lat, you are on fire today. You've put about two days worth of threads up so far.
emily pataki is still fugly.
I went to all the lectures, didn't do great on the simulated MBE and haven't done much other then go to the lectures....screwed or two week miracle?
4:08 is that a joke? I'd drink for the next two weeks...thats more than enough to pass.
I was wondering what the goal was with PMBR Red and Blue books. Too often, the questions are just ridiculously specific and seemingly unlikely to be tested on the exam. Is 2/3rd a good average?
Appreciate the help!
PMBR classes are a waste of time. The practice exam questions are worth doing but not as many as they say to do.
Most important thing to do to pass - get laid the last two days before the test. If you are fugly - Craig's list usually has a smattering of law students studying for the bar who are looking to just get laid. Look 'em up.
seriously, 4:08...you should be fine as long as you don't do #2 on 4:09's list.
i did all the multiple-choice questions, but not many essays at all. the guy i studied with did all the essays, but skipped most of the MBE questions. both of us passed easily. as long as you put in a reasonably solid effort this summer, you should be golden.
Just bear in mind that if you study for the bar at least 1/3rd as much as Bar Bri tells you too, you will probably pass. If you study, but you still fail, you are an idiot and your seed should be wiped from the earth forever.
practice, man, practice.
skipped the pmbr classes, just took a million questions. as with all standardized tests, once you mostly know the substantive material, taking as many practice questions as possible is the best way to pass.
you should also do as many ny practice essays as possible. i think i basically finished the book of practice essays barbri gave us, and it really helped my confidence. don't take the stupid marino or whatever his name is course.
practice, man, practice.
skipped the pmbr classes, just took a million questions. as with all standardized tests, once you mostly know the substantive material, taking as many practice questions as possible is the best way to pass.
you should also do as many ny practice essays as possible. i think i basically finished the book of practice essays barbri gave us, and it really helped my confidence. don't take the stupid marino or whatever his name is course.
What is the worst part of studying for the bar?
http://apps.facebook.com/upguppy/ranking/62734
Vote! Is it the BarBri instructors? Realizing how little you learned in law school? Being stuck inside?
ABOUT THE PMBR:
YES, 2/3 IS A GOOD AVERAGE FOR PMBR MCs. Anything better than 40% is decent. Those things are way more tough than the real thing.
DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME AT THIS POINT WITH THE PMBR CLASS SESSION. Just take the test home, take it, grade yourself. The red and blue PMBR books are immensely helpful for nitpicky points of barstudy.
what's the average on the PMBR simulated MBE?
I got a 131 on barbri MBE but have heard that PMBR is significantly lower.
4:26 - PMBR is hard, that's why it's good.
Take the PMBR test and go over the answers yourself over the weekend. Practice EVERY problem in the red book (forget about the blue book) and do all of the BarBri essays.
PMBR has excellent literature but a very mixed bag of instructors. I remember that one of mine was a well-prepared HLS guy and the other was a lady who taught at some unaccredited TTT and didn't know her ass from her elbow.
What is the deal with the IL essays? Are they as long/tough as the barbri practice essays? Are they usually one concept or multiple bundled up? Specifically, IL civ pro, what are we looking at, generally? Thanks!
BAR/BRI = TTT
Guys in my high school used to take bar exams all the time.
It was no big deal.
If you read this and are superstitious, you will fail.
The Maryland essays last year were almost all mixed subject essays. If you're taking Maryland, focus on those in the coming weeks.
4:29 is GAY !
At 3 a.m. on the second night of my three-day, two-state bar exam adventure, I woke up to find someone had cut the screen to my living room window, and was in the process of crawling inside. He ran off when I entered the room, but all I could think was, "My God! He's breaking into my dwelling at night with the intent to commit a felony therein!!!" But then it occurred to me that he may have honestly, yet unreasonably, believed that I owed him $50. Given that this was the first thing on my mind, I passed.
LOL @ 4:36
4:34 - It's 4:29 here, and you're right - I AM gay!
(I did not even see the double meaning in what I wrote. But I like to smoke the pole. It must have been subconscious.)
Don't worry - The guy sitting next to me at the bar exam drew a robot using the bubbles on the MBE scantron and he passed.
I'm not taking BarBri and have just been studying from outlines I downloaded from barexamoutlines.org. I got a 153 on the practice MBE. So call me crazy, but I'm going to stop stressing.
You don't want to fail the bar exam. There's always the one person in your starting class who fails the test, and throughout his career at the firm, he will be remembered as the one who had to take it over, and reminded of that usually jokingly. That stigma never disappears, even when you are considered for partnership. Don't mess up your career even before it has started..
4:29 -
The PMBR is not 'hard' (the gay comment was great) but more likely overkill. Most of the questions categorized as 'difficult' are poorly written and lack any real legal examination.
Too much credit is given to PMBR. These folks have to come up with new questions each year and most of them (particularly the 'difficult' questions) are terrible. If you saw a question like that on the real bar exam some gunner would appeal and have the question thrown out.
Buy some old PMBR books, and do some practice questions until you feel comfortable. Barbri has them as well. After about 1000 questions, if you still feel uncomfortable...
you are stupid. Give up on the law.
Anyone else using "The Study Group"?
The lectures are circa 1996 and a lot of the law in the outlines is wrong (or inconsistent--wrong at pg. 32, then right at pg. 34).
I saved a chunk of cash using SG but they sure must have a huge profit margin if they haven't changed their materials in over ten years.
Hope I pass. Gulp.
Wow, I'm so glad that I never have to take a bar again (so much for ever moving to CA or FL!)
Any duel NY / NJ takers out there? My firm required both, which was useless because I never practice in dirty Jersey. And it sucked, big time, because while all my friends were out drinking themselves stupid in celebration, I was driving a rental car from Albany to Secaucus NJ to take a 3rd day of testing.
Anyway - I took Bar/Bri for NY, and winged NJ.
Here was the "sage" advice someone had given me, so I'll pass it on. This and a 5 dollar bill will get you a Starbucks:
I was told that on the NJ bar essay section, when they ask you to draft a "memo to the partner" you get extra points if you actually set it up like a memo, as in:
To: Partner
From: Associate
Then write your stupid essay.
Stupid, right? But I did it. And I passed without knowing a bit of NJ law.
Seriously. I'm pretty much convinced that you can pass NJ with just a solid MBE score. In my essays, I literally put "In New Jersey, ______" then inserted NY law (the only law I knew, quite frankly.) And I passed.
The only good news for you NJ / NY duel takers - - you get to find out your MBE score from NJ. When I took the bar (7 years ago.... my how time passes) NY didn't disclose it unless you failed. So all you gunner types out there can compare yourself to your dork friends.
I am curious what experiences people have with BarBri's "affiliate" states. I am taking BarBri in Delaware and considering the very low quality of some of the state specific outlines (provided by the local law school) and the even lower quality of some of the instructors (yup, same local law school involved), it's no surprise that DE has the lowest pass rate in the nation. Anyone else feeling grossly unprepared for the DE section of the bar that undercuts any hope a good sample MBE could have given you?
PMBR and BarBri are a good one-two punch. PMBR is awesome for purely hard q's that will make the real MBE look like cake---or psych you out by seeming too easy.
I am with 4:31, anyone got info on Illinois? I am worried that my firm will fire me if I fail.
4:47 is right about the NJ bar. it really is only another few hours of test-taking, but no actual additional study time. basically, if your essay looks like you could spend some time in the library and get the right answer, you'll pass. it's insanely easy. just plan to finish before the "hold" deadline passes (after which you have to stay in yuor seat until everyone is done), b/c it's easier to get out of the parking lot if you leave early.
4:36... brilliant!
There is no reason to take a prep class if you are reasonably self-confident and self-disciplined. Buy the books second hand for less than a tenth the price of the class, go somewhere nice to study in June (like the beach) and lock it down in July.
There's an added bonus if your firm just pays you a fixed stipend to cover any bar prep costs, rather than directly paying barbri. (I checked and my firm had no problem with me pocketing the extra.) I'll admit there was a little extra anxiety when results came out (you don't want to be the guy who failed because he was too cocky to take the class), but it all worked out.
I don't know how much they are paying some of these professors that work for BarBri, but its way too much for some. I'm pretty much convinced that two of the professors I had were either high on something or suffer from brain damage. Seriously... I think the only part of BarBri is the essay book and the laid out schedule. The classes were a waste of time. Given that, I don't think BarBri is worth the $2K price.
The NY bar must be easy, 4:47 passed, and he doesn't know the difference between the words "duel" and "dual."
PMBR, Micro Mash, all that extra MC prep is a waste of money. Just do all the MC you can get your hands on at your local law school's library.
Bar/bri = sweet.
Do every essay in the books and you'll be fine.
4:49: Had this problem WRT the SC bar. Study at the library with the relevant statutes handy for clarification. Worked for me.
"The only good news for you NJ / NY duel takers - - you get to find out your MBE score from NJ."
- Aaron Burr
/who was charged with murder in New York *and* New Jersey.
PROPOSAL TO STATE BAR EXAMINERS
If a person graduates in the top 10% of the class from an ABA accredited law school, she should have a choice. She can apply to the bar and take the state bar exam and if she passes all requirements, she will be admitted. Or, upon certification of top 10% status from her school, she can fill out the application and opt to spend all of June & July doing approved legal services work for no salary. If she obtains the certification, completes the minimum number of pro bono service hours, and passes C & F review, she is admitted.
In short, graduates with top 10% status can waive out of the bar exam so long as they perform something in the realm of 350-400 hours of legal service to people/entities in need.
Concur with 4:58... a monkey can pass most of the bar exams out there. Heck... I know one attorney that took and passed the bar exam drunk.
5:05, will you tell me who the drunk guy is? He sounds like the kind of dude I want representing me on important matters!
I was on academic probation the whole time I was at my TTT school and still passed the bar. Not passing the bar is below TTT.
Enjoy this time while it lasts- Hear me now and believe me later- you have already taken more difficult exams- Bar study time should be Barbri by day- 4 hours reading/review/6 to 8 hours drinking and seeking ass then repeat.
I did not take Bar/Bri, and I passed NY. I used this website, which was free last year but now the primary document costs $200. It is definitely worth it. I can't imagine needing anything else for the essays. This guy compiled, itemized, sorted, and organized the best answers on all the NY bar exams for the past ten years, broken down by specific topic. www.seperac.com
5:05 his dad starts his name with "Justice" I don't think he'll have a problem finding a job or clients.
I second 5:03's suggestion. I'd like to do pro-bono for the NRA.
Come on, folks, I spent two minutes and twenty five seconds on this. Tell me what you think.
PROPOSAL TO STATE BAR EXAMINERS
If a person graduates in the top 10% of the class from an ABA accredited law school, she should have a choice. She can apply to the bar and take the state bar exam and if she passes all requirements, she will be admitted. Or, upon certification of top 10% status from her school, she can fill out the application and opt to spend all of June & July doing approved legal services work for no salary. If she obtains the certification, completes the minimum number of pro bono service hours, and passes C & F review, she is admitted.
In short, graduates with top 10% status can waive out of the bar exam so long as they perform something in the realm of 350-400 hours of legal service to people/entities in need.
I just went back to read that story about Paulina Bandy. Wow what a stupid twat!
I am not a smart guy (graduated bottom 3rd in my #100 ranked law school) but I still passed FL and NY, each on my first try.
I'm sure you are not as stupid and Paulina.
the top 10% of the class from an ABA accredited law school = TTT
I think it stinks. What is fair for one is fair for all, just becuase you were a total gunner in school and felched your teachers for As doesn't mean that you should not have to take the bar exam. Wise up, loser.
Could I defend the "truck balls" people? Could be the great freedom of speech case of this century.
that top 10 pct proposal is a bad idea because it doesn't account for the courses you took in law school. state bars have a right to ensure some minimal familiarity with their laws, and, while it's great that you achieved top 10 pct by taking feminist jurisprudence or international human rights, the state bar should be allowed to make sure that you know about their tort claims act, or their intestate succession rules, or title registry system, or trustee process rules or all the other random crap that's on the bar exam that nobody studies in law school.
Here's my sage advice:
Once you start the exam, FINISH IT no matter what happens or how badly you think you may have screwed it up. I literally spent the night between the first and second day of the bar in the EMERGENCY ROOM, and I got up at 6 o'clock the next morning, limped in to the civic center, finished the exam, and passed. Had you asked me at 1 o'clock that morning, as I laid on a stretcher between a guy that had almost cut his leg off with a chainsaw and some total head case, whether I would pass, I would have said the odds were pretty firmly stacked against me, but I would have been wrong. If you put in a good faith effort to study between June and July, and you arrive at the appointed hour on exam day, you will pass no matter what might happen with a particular question or essay... or whether you're in the ER the night before.
5:21 - fine... I don't like it... the purpose of the bar exam is to see if a person has minimum competence. If a person in the top 10% can't pass, then there is something wrong. The other purpose of the bar exam is to control the number of licensed attorneys in a state. The more painful the bar exam, the fewer attorneys.
I second 5:27. There are a lot of crap course in law school that handout 'A's. Basketweaving and the Law.
Paula Franzese, if you read this, you should know that the consensus a the GW site in DC is that you're a good instructor and especially hot.
Just so you know . . .
My advice:
If you are worried about the exam, it's probably becuase you are stupid and not going to pass anyway. Just give up. Law wasn't for you.
TTT = TTT
Don't take BarBri... they are getting sued into non-existence due to monopoly tactics and pricing.
I'm sick of all these mother f*cking practice questions in this mother f*ucking PMBR practice exam!!!
-the return of SLJ
"If a person in the top 10% can't pass, then there is something wrong."
Yeah, for example, it could be a person in the top 10% at Hofstra.
I'm sick of all these mother f*cking practice questions in this mother f*ucking PMBR practice exam!!!
-the return of SLJ
Top 10% idea person - awful idea for the following reasons:
1) Even if the bar is arbitrary, at least it is a standard test. Some people take very very hard courses the last two years; some do not. Some people go to top law schools. Most do not. Top 10% at Widner does not make a better attorney than Top 15% at Harvard.
2) Top 10% is an arbitrary cut off.
Instead, they should do away with the bar and just raise the standards of all law schools (cutting the total number in half) and then make surethe bottom 10% of each school's 1L class be let go.
Malvin: I can't believe it, Jim. That girl's standing over there listening and you're telling him about our back doors?
Jim Sting: [yelling] Mister Potato Head! Mister Potato Head! Back doors are not secrets!
Malvin: Yeah, but Jim, you're giving away all our best tricks!
Jim Sting: They're not tricks.
they will never do away with the bar, if only because it is viewed as a rite of passage. and once we pass, we're not going to let some recent grads join our club without suffering like we are.
5:29, your story sounds identical to the one that Sakai was telling at the last Essay Workshop (food poisoning, ER, 6am). If you are indeed that person, all the more respect to you. That's quite an impressive feat.
I'm not doing BAR/BRI because I have a public interest job and a baby who'd I'd have to pay for daycare for to take the class. I took out a small bar loan from my school for summer living expenses money, and I'm using someone's 2006 BAR/BRI books. It's going fine, especially since I'm taking the MA bar which has a high pass rate.
All my friends have spent the last 2 months whining about how they hate class. I study 2-3 hours a day reading outlines, doing MBE questions, and outlining essays (and changing diapers, etc.) and I'm pretty sure I'm good. I'd recommend it if you have the smallest amount of self-discipline.
And yet Wisconsin did just that 5:54. No bar exam for those who attended law school in state.
damnit. why didn't I go to school in Wisconsin? Oh yeah, because it is in the middle of F-ing nowhere.
so if I haven't done ANY of the NY practice essays, besides the few we turned in, but all the practice MBE questions???
no matter how hard i try, i'm gonna fail it...so fuck it. i'm going to NYC this weekend, living it up, and then coming back and pretending to care.
Why should I be doing the Red PMBR book and not the Blue one? What is the difference? Which is harder?
So thea advice is to take the PMBR exam, self grade, but then skip the classes??
PROPOSAL TO STATE BAR EXAMINERS person. Your proposal is fatally flawed. Amend "she" to "he" and it should be fine.
Not related to the bar (good luck to those taking it, though), but with a 3.8 at a fairly good liberal arts school and a 173 LSAT, what odds would ATL commenters give me of getting into a Top 5 or a Top 10 school?
worst summer of my life. my hot swedish girlfriend goes out every night and brings home some dudes while i stay in and study. then i have to watch the dude bang the shit out of her while i do MBE questions and cry.
6:25 -- You're a lock. Someone I know well was 3/3 at T14's with very similar stats
If you go to GULC you are pretty much guaranteed to pas the bar in whatever state you take it.
Can't we have just one thread where someone doesn't mention Hitler?
Just got back from Vegas, hammered for 72 hours straight. I didnt let into the trip till the last second, tickets were cheap, 160 roundtrip from LAX. Awesome time.
Talking about LSAT scores? WTF? Don't bring talk of another exam into this thread. I'm stressed out enough as it is, man. I just threw up a little in my mouth. What day is this?
I think Hitler went to GULC.
6:21: I'm in the same boat....haven't done anything really until recently. Haven't looked at any of the essays other than the few i turned in and just started looking over what we learned in lectures and doing the MBE practice questions. I think I'm going to go with just studying mostly for the MBE and hoping to do well enough on that to pass with whatever I can pull on the essays.
I though the blue PMBR book was better written than the red one and have stuck to it in addition to the MBE books BarBri provided.
"132 on the simluated BarBri MBE. I got a 6 on the latest essay; a 7 on the first one. 6 on the graded MPT.
I've kept up with all the subjects (went to class and outlined), but not ALL of the assigned essays. I'm all caught up on the BarBri practice MBEs in the MPQ.
Assuming I continue to study, am I a shoe-in to pass?"
I'm in a similar position. I got a 198 on the practice MBE and 9s on the essays and MPT we turned in to get graded. I've been outlining and keeping up with lectures too.
Assuming I continue to study, am I a shoe-in to pass?
147 on practice MBE. 98th percentile. but i think as we get closer to the bar i am losing information rather than retaining it. i cant do a friggin essay anymore. what the hell?
last two weeks: do practice questions and essays or just memorize outlines?
i got 205 on the barbri MBE, bitch. Unscaled
Please don't tell us your "how I passed the bar story" without telling us what bar.
Passing CA bar /= Passing TTT state's bar
Then you are a tool who is wasting lots of time over studying.
There will be no parade in Albany (or Sacramento or Austin etc) for the highest score...
Then you are a tool who is wasting lots of time over studying.
There will be no parade in Albany (or Sacramento or Austin etc) for the highest score...
What are people getting on barbri studymart software versus simluated MBE? Also, former takers, what did you you get on Barbri software vs simulated mbe versus actual mbe?
I am scoring 62-68% on intermediate and 130 on barbri simulated mbe.
Just concerned I am losing instead of gaining.
check out the great bar study posts at www.ms-jd.org, search for bar exam and you'll find a lot of good stuff
I found that BarBri graded the essasy extra-hard. I got cruddy scores on the graded essays but ended up passing by miles.
122 simulated mbe
63% intermed. software
my buddy took july 07
simulated mbe 116
software 60%
mbe 149 scaled
108 simulated
60-65% software
152 scaled july 2007
I am a 2L at UVA. Will my UVA training fully prepare me for the Bar Exam (DC and VA) or will I have to take Bar/Bri?
Thanks 7:03 and 7:08. That alleviates a lot of pressure.
crunchy Cheetos taste really good after 100 practice questions.
barbri is killing my will to live. i plan on spending the next two weeks drinking beer and having sex with my boyfriend. i may not pass but at least i will be in a good mood on test day. and probably hungover. and possibly pregnant. but that is what abortion is for. yay fundamental rights!
i heart chemerinsky.
I'm not even going to read any of the above comments, because I can't stand to hear or see any more recent law grads shitting themselves over the bar. It's annoying enough when it's my friends and people I actually care about.
I did a self-study. No ipod. No BarBri. Saved a ton of money and got to sleep in every day. I could take the exam tomorrow without a problem, and would just to be done with it and have two more weeks of summer vacation.
You are all adults. What the hell have you been doing with your time? I've been going out 3 or 4 nights a week, going to the gym every day, and had plenty of time to relax, although I've been focused and consistent with respect to studying too. I've had a rather enjoyable summer, actually. I know my peers aren't dumb. Is it just bad time management? Unnecessary anxiety?
Whatever it is, I'm fed up with hearing about it. Either sack up and stop whining, or study more.
TMI 7:25.
Why do law students/grads love to wear their neuroses on their sleeve? It's not a BFD folks.
I have heard stories of exam takers wearing diapers so they would not have to waste time getting up, handing in all of their exam materials and finally going.
151 simulated
80% software
Cravath associates don't take the bar exam. The bar exam gives itself over to them.
7:16 im sure you will be fine. don't take the class, if you feel like it take a practice test.
I took an Ambien before sitting for the NY bar (each day) and passed. That should tell you something.
Anyone else find those barbri NY multi choice questions hard?
I took an Ambien 10 minutes before sitting for the NY bar (each day) and passed. That should tell you something.
Mr barbri practice MBE was so good, California exempted me from that portion of the test.
I have issue spotted so many essays I can create a criminal procedure essay from a remedies question.
I know the rules so well small children trust me.
I shepardized international shoe by hand, by candlelight, with no shepards book, backwards!
I once defended a homeless man from a camping citation with only a pocket constitution (including the rules of evidence).
I have stabled more plaintiffs than Bill Lerach, paid off more judges than Dickie Scruggs, and kicked more ass than that judge from New Mexico.
But I have not yet passed the bar.
7:16 - you will still need Barbri - the bar is about memorizing random things (elements of crimes, etc.). The only class at UVA that had me memorize that much stuff was Cushman's T&E, which was closed book and insanely time-pressured, if straightforward. The VA bar is respectably hard, so you should take that VA practice and procedure course so you don't have to spend June figuring out what craving oyer means. Just waive into DC.
7:25, I can help you with that.
If you are really that nervous, just cheat. They don't really watch anyway. And if they know you went to UVA, they will probably just let you take at home. I wouldn't worry.
7:54(2) - The New York multiple choice questions are brutal. But I think they count for such a small part of your score that you can crash and burn on them and still pass.
7:57 doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis
what is the deal with barbri mixed subject questions? so easy compared to their regular ones. anyone else notice?
what about FROLIC! and DETOUR! guy?
or, the guy that came out in domestic relations with an inflatable sheep?
Im gonna grind up a whole bag of peanut dust to sprinkle throughout Javits
8:54 - well needed lol after cramming contracts.
911-- depraved heart
I don't have a wristwatch. Do the test taking centers at Albany have wall clocks? Do the proctors give warnings every half hour or so?
I might need to borrow a watch.
9:25
what time is it?
time to get a watch, ahhh hahahahaha!!!!!!!
i'm a BFP, bitches
SHIET......................
I couldn't break my facebook addiciton during studying, so I built a study application for the NY Bar ON FACEBOOK so I could do both together. Muahahah
http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=23019964464
Then I built iPhone access so I could constantly remind myself how shitty my life is :(
6:29:
Not true, my friend. I know a GULC grad who failed the CA bar *twice*. I think he was asked to leave The Firm because come July, we got the farewell email.
Man, oh, man. Reading through this just wasted 20 minutes of my studying time. :(.
The upside is that for the first time since starting this path into the law world, I feel like I actually know some shit.
Top 1/3 at a top 10 school
150 simulated MBE, passed all the practice essays
127 MBE, failed all the real essays
I failed the bar and it ruined my career. I passed the second time. Still, though some people are superficially empathetic about the ordeal, once you have failed you can never really earn the respect of your colleagues and partners will assume you are a joke. I am leaving the field entirely in two months, on the two year anniversary of starting my law career. Welcome to a wonderful profession, everyone.
Word to the wise-DO NOT TAKE ESSAY ADVANTAGE. A BIG WASTE OF DAY AND IF YOUR FIRM IS NOT PAYING, A HUGE WASTE OF MONEY. Get notes from someone else and do not listen to any of Joe Marino's predictions. You are better off using the Barbri frequency chart and just figuring there will be essays on: corporations/contracts, torts, wills and maybe part of the essay on trusts, crim. or crim. pro, and domestic relations. And part of an essay will deal with NY practice. He makes these pie in the sky predictions and then claims great success when he is inevitably wrong.
Word to the wise-DO NOT TAKE ESSAY ADVANTAGE. A BIG WASTE OF DAY AND IF YOUR FIRM IS NOT PAYING, A HUGE WASTE OF MONEY. Get notes from someone else and do not listen to any of Joe Marino's predictions. You are better off using the Barbri frequency chart and just figuring there will be essays on: corporations/contracts, torts, wills and maybe part of the essay on trusts, crim. or crim. pro, and domestic relations. And part of an essay will deal with NY practice. He makes these pie in the sky predictions and then claims great success when he is inevitably wrong.
well 1103 -- how'd you fuck up? Did you stop studying after the simulated MBE?
1109: No, I followed the barbri plan to the end. Nothing went wrong and I didn't stress out. Maybe an essay grader had a bad day, maybe I'm actually terrible at law after all and everything building up to that point was a farce. Maybe both.
I'm not saying my story is typical, of course. Most people's scores seemed to improve.
"Look, I can lick my eyebrows."
i have noticed the mixed subject questions in BarBri are much easier. Why is that? Are these questions a better indication of what will actually be tested, if so, then I am golden.
I heard that if you accept an offer from Cravath, that they will hire someone from Harvard to take the exam for you.
I heard if you are the son of a judge, he gets his judicial clerk to take it.
"5:46 PM
"If a person in the top 10% can't pass, then there is something wrong."
Yeah, for example, it could be a person in the top 10% at Hofstra."
I'll let you know how I do...
/s/
hofstra grad (top 5%)
PS: simulated barbri mbe = 136... so it looks like i'm well on my way to failure!
spendthrift in the pooter
hofstra in the pooter.
no wait, no one should fuck a hofstra grad. keep your pooters well guarded lest the "LONG island" get by your filters.
11:27, that was probably the best line of the whole summer. And the delayed laughter that erupted as groups of LLMs had the joke translated was priceless.
Here's one clause that should NEVER appear in an answer explanation: ". . . dictum in one case asserted . . ." Thank you PMBR for wasting my time. Question 27, Crim law, Blue book.
Folks,
Bar/bri won't tell you this, but their practice MBE questions are much longer fact patterns than the ones you will see on actual bar day. when I took the bar, I was shocked how much shorter the true MBE questions were. I believe this is a Bar/bri time keeping technique. If you can get through their questions in time, then you can get through all of them on test day.
I passed on my first time in 7/05.
Cravath & Harvard = TTT
poopin' in a hat
9:24
what do you mean they use it as a "time keeping technique"?
I agree the fact patterns seemed longer than the practice q's
For those people who have taken the NY bar, are there any classes that you should absolutely take because the subject matter appears on the bar? Secured transactions? Trusts & estates?
9:24 - thanks, that's good to know
10:32 - he's saying, essentially, that you train to run 5 miles if you only need to run 3 on race day...running 3 feels easy in comparison. If you can get thru 200 long barbri ?'s in the 6 hours you will get thru the mbe with time to spare
10:46
Did you think the simulated questions had longer fact patterns? Anybody else feel this way?
"simulated barbri mbe = 136... so it looks like i'm well on my way to failure!"
Screw that, I can't possibly see how you'd fail. I got a 139 on the simulated MBE and know that 93rd percentile; you can't be far behind. As long as you do decently on the essays, you'll pass in any jurisdiction.
c'mon 11:19
it's obviously sarcastic. look at the exclamation point!
Passing the bar the first time, then having to take the entire exam again several years later to be in admitted in another jurisdiction is pointless and insulting. It is a waste of my time and my firm's money.
http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mjp/comm2_usg.html
PMBR is a WORTHLESS PILE OF GARBARGE!!!. Get the books only if you need more multiple choice problems. The review course is a meaningless waste of time.
I passed first try last year. On the Barbri practice MBE, I got some terrible score that would have put me in 130 range (after taking their "you'll do 30 points better" statement at face value). In fact, I got a 168 on the MBE. That's mainly attributable to my strategy (that's being diplomatic) of passive absorption in June and active studying in July.
People learn in different ways, but the key for me was spending a little over an hour skimming the outline for a given topic and then a long repeating process of taking 10-20 questions and reviewing the answers. I also thought that the PMBR questions were extremely helpful for learning fine line distinctions.
@10:37: Classes and bar review have a different focus and different intended outcomes. For topics that you don't care about in the least, I think it is better to avoid muddying up your mind with a class on an uninteresting topic. In New York, the target time to read an essay is 4 minutes for the grader. At that rate, brilliance is selected against in favor of clear, basic understanding.
I thought they said "you'll do like 12 points better," not 30
is it normal to masturbate 3 times a day?
I fart in your general direction... BarBri.
that's seems way too low. I rub out ten or so a day, especially when I'm stressed for a test
4:58. Interesting Suggestion. I'd take the direct opposite.
Eliminate the J.D. as a requirement for the bar examination. Putting people into schooling for three more years in order to enter what is for most pratictioners a VOCATIONAL CAREER is a econmic waste. It is pure busy work and drains the nation of real wealth producing activity.
As this blog's commentators routinely point out there are two careers in law.
Elite (Big Law, Federal and Sate Supreme Judiciary, Academics, etc.)
Everyone Else (small town, non-famous criminals, real estate, domestic relations, etc.)
Consumer Protection and Quality Control (the reason for the bar exam) should be set for the Everyone Else category in the most efficient means possible. This could be best established by the former Japanese Method of a standarized test for entry into Professional Legal Training or the English Method of standardized test for Professional Legal Training and Intership. These two systems set their quality throttle before a lengthy and long educational process. The current US system sets its quality throttle after people have spent 3 years of their lives and tens of thousands of dollars on an education that is largely irrelevant and drawn out. With the proliferation of more and more law schools the LSAT can no longer be viewed as an actual quality throttle but instead an early differentiator. As it is the amount of people diverting themselves from PRODUCTIVE work for three years is ever increasing. These people are being forced into spending time and money for an education that does not offer a reasonable promise that they will become practicioners of law. Who benefits? The law professors and administrators at these schools. Who is hurt? The students and society's wealth.
The Elite category is more than capable of establishing its own standard of hiring. The bar exam is not a quality control in the elite category. For instance the current emphasis on T14 grads, Law Review and Honors in the United States.
4:58. Interesting Suggestion. I'd take the direct opposite.
Eliminate the J.D. as a requirement for the bar examination. Putting people into schooling for three more years in order to enter what is for most pratictioners a VOCATIONAL CAREER is a econmic waste. It is pure busy work and drains the nation of real wealth producing activity.
As this blog's commentators routinely point out there are two careers in law.
Elite (Big Law, Federal and Sate Supreme Judiciary, Academics, etc.)
Everyone Else (small town, non-famous criminals, real estate, domestic relations, etc.)
Consumer Protection and Quality Control (the reason for the bar exam) should be set for the Everyone Else category in the most efficient means possible. This could be best established by the former Japanese Method of a standarized test for entry into Professional Legal Training or the English Method of standardized test for Professional Legal Training and Intership. These two systems set their quality throttle before a lengthy and long educational process. The current US system sets its quality throttle after people have spent 3 years of their lives and tens of thousands of dollars on an education that is largely irrelevant and drawn out. With the proliferation of more and more law schools the LSAT can no longer be viewed as an actual quality throttle but instead an early differentiator. As it is the amount of people diverting themselves from PRODUCTIVE work for three years is ever increasing. These people are being forced into spending time and money for an education that does not offer a reasonable promise that they will become practicioners of law. Who benefits? The law professors and administrators at these schools. Who is hurt? The students and society's wealth.
The Elite category is more than capable of establishing its own standard of hiring. The bar exam is not a quality control in the elite category. For instance the current emphasis on T14 grads, Law Review and Honors in the United States.
3:29 - you must be dehydrated from all that fluid loss.
I am going to take the July 2009 NY Bar and was wondering for review....Pieper or BarBri?
No Barbri or PMBR for me. I borrowed last year's books and am working through all the materials and feeling fine about not spending the cash on classes. As noted earlier, if you have any self discipline at all the classes are a pretty big waste of money. These sentiments subject to change come October.
I'm at a T5 so basically everyone from my school passes the NY bar but I might not. Taking Barbri....Got an 89 on the practice MBE and a 3 and a 1 on the essays I turned in. Have really no idea whats going on yet the stats tell me I'll probably pass. Will update when results come in.
the questions on the exam day are much shorter than the bar bri questions.
can ayone who's taken bar-bri CA talk about the essay grading? i keep failing their assigned essays with answers i *think* would be easy passes on the actual test.
They grade these really hard, right?
jesus, can we get some more lighthearted comments on here, such as those about masturbation?
Mary's a leper!
I'm at a T5 too, and i got a 91 on the simulated MBE :(
The actual released MBE questions by subject in the MPQ2 book (in Cal. anyway) have a very different feel from either the Bar Bri or PMBR questions - they are not assigned by Bar Bri for some reason during this last two weeks, but I think that they are a better way to spend that last hour of prep-by-subject than the Bar Bri questions if you're only going to do one set of 38.
U people are all clowns. Try studying for a real bar -- more specifically, Delaware. 67% first-time pass rate, and unlike CA, we don't have a bunch of lower-than TTT kids who went to non-ABA approved schools filling the fail spots (in fact, DE imposes screening requirements that make it difficult for someone who doesn't have a job to even take the bar exam here).
I started studying just today. I didn't go to any lectures, but I have some friend's notes from last year. And I bought loads of practice problems (for California). It doesn't look that hard- it seems like common sense.
Am I wrong?
12:19, if you look at the questions released by the National Conference of Bar Examiners on p. 25 of: http://www.ncbex.org/uploads/user_docrepos/MBE_IB2008_01.pdf
you'll see that they're mad easy. These are NOTHING like Barbri, PMBR, OR the Barbri released questions in MPQ2. I wish there was some way to know what the actual MBE questions looked like. I heard PMBR was the most similar, but who fucking knows anymore...
If anyone has an opinion, let us hear it.
12:19, if you look at the questions released by the National Conference of Bar Examiners on p. 25 of: http://www.ncbex.org/uploads/user_docrepos/MBE_IB2008_01.pdf
you'll see that they're mad easy. These are NOTHING like Barbri, PMBR, OR the Barbri released questions in MPQ2. I wish there was some way to know what the actual MBE questions looked like. I heard PMBR was the most similar, but who fucking knows anymore...
If anyone has an opinion, let us hear it.
are those real questions? they seem way too easy.
Guys at my high school used to pass the Delaware bar all the time.
It was not big deal.
WTF
just took PMBR simulated MBE and got murdered.
I thought it was supposed to be easier than Barbri's, which I did alright on
No, the lady at the start of our PMBR exam said not to freak out about the scores because they intentionally made it a very tough exam.
After you start reviewing your wrong answers, you'll see how ridiculously obscure some of the questions are.
Here's a big "FU" to PMBR for making us all crap our pants.
If you are fed up with BAR/BRI and PMBR, there are other courses you can try. Supreme Bar Review has excellent courses for the MBE and MPRE, as well as a full-service course for Ohio.
Do PMBR books need to be returned the way Barbri books do? I cant remember if there was a deposit
anyone know the requirements for waiving into the DC bar? I'm taking NY.
Does it depend on how well you do on the multistate or anything? I know lots of states have minimum lengths of time in practice before you can waive in but people speak of waiving into DC like its a guaranteed thing once you've passed another state...what is it that makes it easier?
Back to memorizing testamentary substitutes.
TS, LEGUP and take it in the LOGPIT
9:35- I hope those questions are like the bar. Thanks for the link.
How is #11 not dealing with an output contract?
I went to an Ivy League law school and one reasonably smart classmate didn't pass the bar b/c he was too cool/too cheap (going into non-law career that didn't pay for bar review) to take BarBri. He studied but didn't take BarBri.
Since BarBri controls more than 80% of the bar review market, if BarBri doesn't cover something that ends up being on the bar exam most test takers won't be able to answer that question correctly, which will result in the question being thrown out of the scoring.
Don't kid yourself that law school/non-BarBri classes are enough.
That said, I attended lectures in the morning and studied for a couple of hours in the afternoon, mostly didn't study weekends, was a bridesmaid in a foreign wedding and still passed NY on the first try. I studied MUCH less for the CA bar and also passed on the 1st try.
I'm a idiot. I meant to type "loss volume seller". But my question still remains.
@ 1:56: you will fail the bar because of this.
1:56- Because you don't get 4k as damages, you get your lost profit, which is 4k less profit.
1:56 here. Considering that was the only question I missed out of the 18, I'm not too worried about it.
anyone have NY bar predictions?
No 1:56, you are an inbred loser who should be very worried
anyways, why do I feel like I got shat on by that PMBR exam this morning?
just joshin you 1:56.
Prediction for NY bar: massive rates of failure due to allergic reaction to all the peanuts everyone is going to bring now.
joshin you in the pooter
Are PMBR questions really that much harder than those on the actual bar?
PMBR questions are so hard, if you stumble into one of them your bones will shatter like glass, right along with your bar license. Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a PMBR question and broke the ball of his foot.
res ipsa loquitur never works against Chuck Norris, even though ALL things are in his exclusive control.
Does Anyone else think the PMBR Questions are a load of crap? It seems like someone added key words like "specific performance" or "required." and they forgot to change the answer choices.
I just did one contracts question where the sample answer elipsed "required" out of the fact pattern -- oops!
And another where the correct answer was that a court would order a contractor to specificialy perform after a storm had destroyed his equipment and injured his workers - My ass!
I wanna know what people thought was harder: the PMBR simulated exam, the Barbri simulated exam, and the real bar exam? Rank em
please tell me pmbr questions are nothing like the real mbe.
1) PMBR simulated exam
2) Barbri simulated exam
3) real bar exam? (please god, be easiest)
please tell me that too
Can i start studying today for NY and still pass?
what's the date of the exam again?
10:42:
the NY exam is on 7/31, around 3pm I think -- location is South St. Seaport, the MBE is a couple of weeks after that . . . good luck
Got a 93 on the barbri simulated MBE, 5 on the latest practice essay and 8 on the MPT... do i stand a chance of passing? What should I be doing in the last week?
i got a 127 on the pmbr mbe does that mean i can stop studying?
I'm not sure how much harder the pmbr is....does anyone know what roughly translates to a 140 mbe?
they said add 36 points. so a 104 on pmbr = 140 mbe
Damn, is it really that much....guess I'll see how I do on the PMBR tommorrow...
yeah because they put all difficult questions on the pmbr exam rather than mixing it up w/ easy and medium (like we'll see on the bar). good luck!
Does anyone know if the "raw" score is out of 200 or 190? I assumed they didn't count the 10 experimental questions and that therefore it was out of 190. But, the back of the BarBri book says that "the average raw score from the summer exam historically has been about 128 correct (64%), which is 72 wrong out of 200 questions." If 140 raw is essentially a lock to pass, whether that is out of 190 or 200 seems like a big difference. Thanks.
Looking at the PMBR book I think they mean they add 36 points to get your scaled score. I think 6:51 meant gettin to 140 raw....the PMBR book seems to indicated that they mean add about 20 to your raw....so if you get about 120 raw on the pmbr you are on pace to hit the 140 raw on the real test
can you read? it says add 36 to your raw score to get your scaled score on the exam (as opposed to on the actual exam where they add about 15 to raw)
So what do you add to your raw pmbr to approximate your raw real mbe score?
I understand how the PMBR calculations work, but is the MBE raw score calculated out of 190 or 200? Obviously it makes a difference on the % you need to get right to achieve a 140 raw.
190
I don't know about that - the bar bri book makes it sound like 200 doesn't it? But it would be more logical to be 190.