More than ten years ago, I tried to get my fellow associates to talk about money beyond the first coupld of lockstep years. No one bit. The only one who derives power from secrecy of pay is the payor.

If Gloria Steinem said it, you can pretty much bet on it being hysterical pabulum driven by ideology and self-interested sexism.

I am a Biglaw associate. I have non-lawyer relatives who sometimes ask how much money I make. (Yes, it is rude, but if you knew my family you would understand.)

Usually I deflect their inquiries. But considering that they could easily find out, on websites like ATL, should I just go ahead and tell them next time?

It's very common in asian cultures to discuss salary openly. It's even considered polite conversation.

It all depends on the company in which that information is revealed. Among lawyers, I think it's good to talk; know what salaries are paid in which markets, by which firms, bonuses, etc. It can get a little awkward when someone - who is not a lawyer - asks how much you make. So again, I think these are two separate realms. In the former, discussion is fine. In the later, it seems tacky.

I am happy to discuss salaries/bonus with summer associates. They should know - full disclosure - what they're in for.

informational monopolies = TTT

Talking about personal finances at all is a very dangerous area, and one of the "forbidden topics" of polite dinner conversation (along with politics and religion). It's very difficult to have the conversation without one of the parties becoming bitter.

11:06 - No, don't answer. If they're that intent on finding out, they can. By answering, you're inevitably going to piss off someone and invite comments like: "how can someone x years out of law school be making THAT?"

11:06 here. Re: what 11:15 said, maybe it's not my family that is rude, but my culture - I'm Asian American.

The relatives who ask are usually aunts and uncles who are first generation immigrants. (My cousins who grew up in the States are not the ones asking.)

I'm with 11:06. My inlaws keep asking how much I make. I don't tell them - with any research they'd find their way to this site and find some post about my firm going up to 160. Never tell an outsider your salary - it'll just make them pissed/jeolous and change whatever relationship you had. It also helps to bitch about your CoL.

That sounds like a good idea in theory, but the reality is that people view salaries as a reflection of how impressive they are. Women are catty and competitive with each other; salaries and the professional realm are just one more place for us to fight with each other. For Gloria to suggest that we all just be open about salaries with each other is akin to telling us to all hold hands and sing kumbaya by the fireplace.

Here's a personal example: I'm a biglaw associate. A few of my nonlaw female friends asked what I would make in my new job. Since these salaries are public, I told them. Let me tell you, the waves of jealousy radiating from them was unbelievable. But I'm not the only one - most of my female friends in biglaw say the same thing has happened to them. Girls are competitive - we used to just compete for men, but now we compete in the professional realm too!

Collusion is awwwwwesome. 9_9

11:24: I would suggest finding new friends. I am also a female biglaw associate and none of my female friends would dream of asking me what my salary is or resenting me for it if they found out. (Nor would I - I have no idea what my friends make, with the exception of my biglaw friends.)

We also do not compete for men, as we are out of high school.

11:06 -11:21 .. Asian American like Charlize Theron is African American.....?

I agree that sharing the information is the only way to assess competitiveness. However, in order to avoid petty personal jealousies, the data needs to be collected and compiled anonymously by a 3rd party.

I see a new niche market...any investors on the board?

Gloria Steinem's comments might be read to suggest that feminism has failed to close the wage gap because of a basic lack of sense.

The writers reports that Steinem said: "If women were more willing to reveal their salaries to one another, they would make strides in eliminating the gender gap in wages."

Women sharing information about their salaries with each other would be, at best, minimally useful. What women need to know is how their salaries compare with the salaries of male co-workers.

Sadly, I suspect that Steinem wouldn't be interested in creating an environment in which men and women share information with each other. That just wouldn't be about sisterhood or the empowerment of women (and only women).

Rock on, sister. Rock on.

I'm all for discussing salaries. When I left BIGLAW for a much smaller firm, lots of my colleagues asked what my new salary would be and it didn't bother me in the least to tell them. How the hell else can you find out that kind of information? Also, I'm laughing at the jealousy people allegedly have toward BIGLAW salaries. Do they have any idea the shit one has to eat to earn that salary?

And 11:24 - not all women are competitive and "catty", just you and your jackass friends.

And clearly, 11:24, you are far above such cattiness and competition. Not like those OTHER females... oh no, you can call women out, just like you're one of the guys!!! I'm sure you didn't come off like an arrogant ass when you disclosed your salary at all. Right. [/sarcasm (for the hopelessly dense)]

My female friends who are also lawyers are a Godsend. Two of them in particular have had my back since we went to law school together, and I like to think that I am just a loyal to them in return. Not to mention, I truly enjoy their company. And I do discuss salary with them -- and only them, never non-BigLaw non-lawyer friends. Thus avoiding the problems you seem to face.

I'm actually kind of sad for you, 11:24. Don't underestimate having quality female friends with whom you can discuss career and finances openly... and this isn't just some "sisterhood" thing, it applies equally to male friends and business associates.

To 11:24 - you and your friends are obviously catty and competitive. That doesn't mean all women are, so please keep your generalizations to yourself.

Maybe 11:24's friends were just surprised that someone without a basic grasp of subject-verb agreement was making a biglaw salary.

"Let me tell you, the waves of jealousy radiating from them was unbelievable."

11:15, I'm intrigued by your comment. I'm an SA now and I don't think I would ever feel comfortable coming out and asking about salaries past year one. Of course that information is available on the internet for V50 firms, but I think I'll end up in a secondary / fly-over market where compression has led to concealed lockstep information. (Before the mad hating begins, this is by choice--I'm T14 with plenty of opportunities in NY and DC.) Does anyone think that it's rude or assuming for a second year SA to ask about lockstep compensation and average partner profits? The PPP information is what really throws me off--I don't think I could guess within a few hundred thousand of what it is.

More importantly-- is it cool if I wear running shoes to work and then change when I get to teh office?

From an economic perspective, any attorney would be at a disadvantage vis-a-vis a potential employer if he or she did not know what others with comparable experience levels and tenure were making. This is fine with firms, who get to exploit the information assymetry

11:47: Ha ha! Exactly. I was thinking that her friends probably consider her a half-wit and she misinterpreted their shock as jealousy.

11:24 trolled the crap out of you idiots.

11:15 here. After I went to college, I worked in the non-profit/public sector for a few years. It may go without saying, but I did not make very much money. I couldn't stomach it. I had always planned to go back to school, either to law school or grad school in public policy, and after being a broke non-profit grunt for a few years, decided to law school. I was one of those people who started out in law school with vague thoughts about doing "public interest work", but quickly grasp the realities of my situation: 1) I had no money 2) My family had no money 3) Legal Aid lawyers make no money 4) I had tons of student loan debt 5) I have never been averse to working hard, or working long hours if I like what I'm doing. 6) I really liked litigation.

The rest is history. But getting back to the point--- I have lots of friends who are in non-profit/public sector jobs. I have lots of friends who are - seemingly - lifetime PhD students. Some of these people are great; they love what they do; they're happy. But it seems like lots of people who work in less "rigorous" fields don't really have a proper understanding of how hard lawyers work and what we sacrifice in order to make good money. People are so quick to say, "Oh wow. Must be nice to make $200k a year.... Wow.. wish I made that much.." But they have no appreciation for all the hard work that it took to get here, and all the hard work that it takes to stay here.

A few months back, we were in the middle of a trial, and I got a call in my office at 1am from a senior partner who was STILL HERE, asking me if I wanted to grab something to eat and call it a night. That guy makes big money, but still routinely makes sacrifices to remain at the top. Some people just don't get it. There is nothing greedy about saying, "I bust my ass, and I am damn well compensated for it."

11:54: Sadly, I don't think that was trolling.

It works out well for clerks, especially upstairs. Thanks to Lat it's no secret that this year's bonus for OT2007 clerks is looking like at least $275,000. The work Lat does in forcing firms to play fair is amazing.

11:49 - Generally, I don't know if it would be wise for YOU to broach the subject. You hopefully have one or two associates who know the inside info and will offer to answer any questions you might have on point. That's what I tell the summers. I say, "If you have any questions about salary, bonuses, etc... just ask me. I'm glad to tell you what I know".

Pay secrecy was big in the 50's. Nowadays we get together at our old frat house, sing koombaya, drink Belgian Bud, and chant our salaries. Everyone should try it.

-zeus

Well-put, 11:59. It's a lot of money, but it's also a lot of work. It's far from a free lunch. Part of the reason I left BIGLAW.

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/01/a_sevenfigure_payday_for_boies.php

Lack of information is one of the impediments to a free market. Hidden information distorts the market, therefore salaries and compensation should be open if you want a the employment market to be driven by market forces. The only person that wants to inhibit the flow of information is the person paying the salary.

There is a difference between (i) discussing salaries among friends/family/acquaintances and (ii) discussing salaries among people who work in the same industry and want to use the info to make more money.

I don't care what my friend makes as a teacher but I do care what Simpson is paying its associates.

I see no reason whatsoever for anyone to keep their salary a secret, or even pretend that its "awkward" to discuss your salary with all the common folk. You're not some secret billionaire hedge fund manager. You're a lawyer. In Manhattan, you're still lower-middle class. Get over yourself and your "huge" $200,000 salary.

none of my friends (lawyers or non-lawyers) ask. nor does my family.

oddly, many of the nonlawyers i've spoken with (generally...about graduating, working, etc) seem to think that lawyers are like doctors, and make very little money for a long time (although i suppose that's true for many), and i don't disabuse them of that notion. if they want to think i'm poor, that's fine with me.

as mentioned, if someone really wants to know, they can find out easily enough. that said, the few times anyone has asked me, i've deflected the question. if they persist (no one has), i'll tell them. if they get jealous, it's not my problem; they're the ones who pushed the issue.

I know a firm that forbids associates to discuss salaries. It very upfront that disclosure of salary information is grounds for termination.

This is patently illegal, which makes it all the more amusing.

My friends who are cagiest about this stuff are those with income from their parents. They don't want you to start asking how they can afford a townhouse on a $80K salary.

I'm a 4th year associate in biglaw, getting paid what just about any other 4th year biglaw associate gets paid, and I don't know ANYONE who is jealous of my salary. Every one of my friends is either (i) a finance person who works less than me and makes about the same, (ii) a finance person who works as much as me and makes more, or (iii) a school teacher or non-profit employee who has happily signed on to make far less than me in exchange for doing work they care about. In fact, the third group is by far the least jealous of my salary.

pay disclosure = pay equality

Probably a good thing from Marci Alboher's perspective. But we should keep in mind that equal treatment of unequals is not always good. Where there is broad disclosure of salaries, pay disparity between good and bad employees diminishes or goes away entirely. Some people resent being paid the same as everyone else for doing more.

12:29,

It is not illegal.

LOL at the irony of a cat fight intended to prove who isn't catty.

But I'm sad that women don't fight over me. :(

12:34: how can you tolerate the friendship of finance people? ::confused::

"pay disclosure = pay equality"

12:36: I doubt it. How would this evolve? Someone goes to management and tells them that they're earning less than someone else? The management becomes fearful of pay discrimination suits? People end up assuming that certain positions will pay certain amounts, and bargain accordingly?

From the NLRB:

[A]n employer rule which regards employee compensation and benefit information as confidential and prohibits employees from discussing such information with one another violates Section 8(a)(1) of the Act. . . .

In examining whether a particular rule so violates Section 8(a)(1), the Board’s analysis requires that the rule be such that “Employees would reasonably construe the language to prohibit Section 7 activity.”

"Well, a lot of us, at least in Biglaw (and at least in terms of associates; compensation for counsel and partners is somewhat less transparent; but even they have the American Lawyer PPP data)."

This is almost a complete sentence.

Interesting, as I'm a 3L, clerking for a small firm and work full time for a big city municipal government (Houston, because it will be obvious in a moment). Well, about a week ago, the Houston Chronicle posted a story, ostensibly about overtime pay in the police department. They also posted a link to a database where anyone could check the salaries of all 81,000 public employee's in the Houston/Harris County area. Talk about a comment clusterf**k. I think city government in houston has just started moving again. What is really interesting is that there are plenty of cops that make an equal amount to their salaries in overtime. A few make more than the mayor! Interesting. Talk about salary transparancy!

Of course, there are plenty of city employee's that make less than 20K too. BTW, Starting attornies for the City of Houston start at about 35K. I won't be going over to the City Attorney's office when I graduate!

Ah, but $35K in Houston is worth $160K in NY :)

My mother-in-law has asked several times what my salary will be (as she likes to discuss such things openly, and she tells us all what my electrician brother-in-law makes for a living), but every time she asks we just try to graciously deflect the question. Last time she asked it, my wife said "we don't like to openly discuss our finances" and she hasn't asked since.

how much does the electrician make (and in which city?)

just curious

So if Houston pays attornies $35K to start, what do they pay attorneys?

He's a journeyman or an apprentice or something (don't keep up with it) and I think he makes $13-14 / hour in the Midwest. I don't know the exact amount is right now. Just as I don't want my salary discussed, I tune out when she discusses other people's finances. That being said, their house only cost them $70K, so it's all relative.

What my mother-in-law has a hard time grasping is that $160K in NYC is not worth the same as it would be where she lives, not to mention substantial student loan obligations.

I retract. Gotta stop saucin' it up at lunch. -12:47

Houston's city/county salary disparity with Biglaw salaries is tremendous and it does breed some contempt from peers. I will be starting at a big firm here in Texas in the fall and many of my peers who are either w/o jobs or with jobs lined up at the city/county are openly jealous and we can't seem to go out for drinks w/o someone bringing up the subject.

Anyway, as an aside the 35k in Houston actually goes up to 42k with a year or two, so it's not all bad :)

12:44: So what does that regulation mean? Employees are permitted to discuss salary information, but only insofar as it is intended to lead to (or somehow connected with) unionization? What if we just want to use that information to bargain individually?

I was raised on the general principle that one does not discuss one's salary earnings or worth. I don't know how prevalent that is these days. My guess is that there's a strong positive correlation between being taciturn about how much one has / makes and how much one has / makes. Because, once you identify your appropriate socioeconomic group set, you don't really need to raise these types of discussions. Signals serve just fine thank you very much.

It seems very ... blue collar to talk $$$. (Different, note, from discussing investments / tax strategies, which was always an 'okay')

my bad on the attornies thing - I'm a poor speller (thank God for spell checkers) and my fingers just type that rather than the correct spelling of attorneys.

Yeah, it goes to 42K after a couple of years, but that would still be a cut of 26K for me (remember, my salary is a matter of public record, so why hide it).

And that 42K is about 84K in New York, if you trust those pointy head folks who figure out COL. Getting it closer to Biglaw! :)

Having said that, it's pretty damn obvious - at least amongst younger (read: still associate) lawyers at big law firms - how much your coworkers and other members of the legal set are 'making'. There just isn't that much variability, outside of the few outliers that use huge (potential) bonuses as a carrot. I think when you move into partnership realm / own practice / small firms, then, yes it can become hard to tell.

I wish Thelen would demystify salary secrecy and pay lockstep (market) salaries, perhaps the merger gives us hope!

@1:17: Your right to discuss salary information with other employees is not limited to union-related matters. Employees' NLRA Section 7 rights include the right "to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of ... mutual aid or protection." See the NLRB's decision in Niles Co., 328 NLRB No. 58 (1999) (available for free at the NLRB website, click "Board Decisions," then "Bound Volumes," then choose "328").

Have any of you switched from Corproate to Litigation? If so were you content with your switch? Visa versa?

Unionizing the legal profession? I don't think people have enough guts. Lawyers by nature are conformists, followers, and yes-men. When a partners tells an associate to jump, he says how high.

I used to work at Baker Hostetler in Orlando. The salary system at the firm is not transparent at all. The only known salaries are those of first year associates (only because they are published by NALP). This leads to a situation where a first year can be making more than a more senior associate.

The partners think it is a good thing, but I suspect that is because it prevents them from having to give associates market raises. It is not surprising that this office has lost 5 or 6 associates within the last year.

Before I was in big law, I worked in a business where other people's salaries were not known. It was frustrating. One minute you think you are doing well, then you hear through the rumor mill that someone is getting paid more and you wander why. Money is a necessary evil. Nothing we should be ashamed to discuss.

I used to work for a public university (not as an attorney) and there was an online database where anybody could look up the salary of anybody else at the university. I thought that kind of transparency was great. If the basketball coach is going to make more than a tenured professor, then why not be up front about that? I'm all for just having salaries and bonuses and all all aspects of compensation completely available to everyone that works for the same employer. Of course this will never happen, because secrecy benefits the employer by enabling them to manipulate and intimidate employees via the mysterious carrot and stick of compensation. But for us employees to be against transparency, well, that's exactly what the partners want.

Salary secrecy is a conspiracy to manipulate the employment market; the same as price fixing.

1:32: Your family sounds like a lot of fun to be around.

Someone should create an online database where attorneys (no - anybody in the world) could go and anonymously post their job title, place of business, and salary and bonus information. A sort of SalaryWiki. Shit, I think I might do this! Would people be willing to post to such a resource?

132 here - I know. We have our problems. But we have our strengths as well. The beatings for misplacing the fork in the order on the table usually wern't that severe.

154
unioinization is the hallmark of conformists and cowards. they dont have the balls to engage in the fair competition in the marketplace, so they band together like a bunch of terrified rabbits.
welcome to 2008 (aka not 1973)

This is 11:24 again. I'm impressed with all the women whose friends are not uncomfortable with their salaries. Count your blessings - but also be aware that time changes everything. My friends are great people, but they've also had a tough time making it here - we all are first generation immigrants. I'm an older Biglaw associate - a second year who is well into her 30s. Fifteen years ago, when I was a private just starting in the US Army, everything was different. My friends were friends who stood by me through everything - including two deployments. But after a while, real life does drive you apart. Most of them have gone through issues like layoffs and divorces and bankruptcies. I haven't. Doesn't make me special - it just didn't happen that way - yet. It's hard for anyone who has busted their butt their whole life and not gotten much for it to see someone else - a close friend - do the same and somehow make it. It creates resentment - often understated and not mentioned, but still there. Acknowledging that reality doesn't make me a betrayer of women - it just makes me a realist.

The US is an inherently competitive society; women internalize and reflect this - that is only natural. Look at how much anger is directed toward Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama - FROM WOMEN, not just men. Usually the people who hate them the most are women.

To 11:42, 11:44, and 11:47 - grow up. Someone pointing out the uneasy relationships that women often have with each other is not necessarily "catty", "competitive" or a "jackass". Relationships - including friendships - go through phases, not all of them good. Let me know if your close friends now are still your close friends when you are in your late thirties and forties. I think you'll find that when a lot of water has gone under the bridge, everything in your world has changed - including the people.

Posted by guest
Friday, July 18, 2008 2:17 PM

I'm a senior associate at Biglaw.

I will talk about salary with:
- fellow associates and counsel at my firm;
- partners (though this leads to inevitable discussion about how associates are overpaid);
- individuals at comparable firms in town and in other major cities; and
- summer associated (but only in very general terms; the summer associates show a remarkable lack of tact about everything).
Generally, if they're willing to discuss it, I'm am too.

Bonuses are trickier - I'd only discuss that with a close colleague, as I don't want to embarrass someone who didn't receive one, or received a far smaller one. Generally, I'll only discuss bonus in relative terms (up a bit from last year, down a bit from last year). My firm may not pay as much as - or may pay more than other firms.

I would not discuss salary or bonus with:
- any other class of employee at my firm (like paralegals or secretaries). The pay disparity is huge, and the conversation would be awkward. They work hard and are likely being screwed, but they've not seen 4 a.m. at the firm or worked all weekend (without getting paid overtime).
- attorneys at firms in the lower salary tiers.
- attorney friends in other markets if they aren't in major cities or at Biglaw shops;
- anyone outside of the profession, including friends and family, except for my husband and parents.

1:32: you have to be making a LOT of money to get to the socio-economic place you're talking about. Wee associates are just salaried employees who generally care about what the next person is making relative to us, and especially how many hours they're billing in order to get that.

It's generally people who don't have to worry about money who insist on being top-secret about money.

132 here

Its where my family comes from. And it's how I was raised. Although, point to fact, I don't really think that is true, or at least it wasn't as true. 30 years ago, it was still very much a 'middle class' virtue to not really go into salary discussions. I think its the gen-X and the subculture of the yuppies contained therein that changed things.

I find the socioeconomic dynamics of the legal profession to be extremely interesting to be honest (I write honestly here because I seem to have found the rare occasion where the comments aren;'t completely zany). I'm just starting out in it the field and, despite the popular perception, I think there's more variability in the socioeconomic backgrounds than people stereotypically expect. (And I mean this both ways - meaning I've found more 'silvers' and more 'gutters' and I use the term only as a proxy not to be disparaging although I recognize it comes across as such).

The popular perception (or at least the law student perception) is that there are two types in law: 'made it' lower-middle classers and 'perpetuating' upper-middle class professional kids. And, while there is some of both, there's also a decent spread of more diverse backgrounds.

back to analysis i go.

2:34 - "there's also a decent spread of more diverse backgrounds." Hmmm... the NALP statistics really don't support that assertion. Law Firms are still overwhelmingly white male.

1:32: I was raised to have certain religious views. Then I grew up and went to college and learned to question the assumptions I was raised with. So, regardless of how you were raised, do YOU think that salary secrecy is a good thing? Perhaps you still think that it's a polite thing, but is it economically beneficial or harmful to associate attorneys to not know what others like them are making? I'm not one for social conventions that cost me money. I agree with 2:26 that that is a luxury of those who do not have to worry about money, and I'm not there.

12:29 -

Why would terminating an employee for discussing salary be "patently illegal," if its an employment at will state?

As long as the inquirer is willing to discuss my $180k in law school debt, I'm also willing to discuss my $160k salary.

2:44 -- yes, because diversity of life experience can only exist in a group comprising people of various genders and ethnicities.

Stop being racist.

2:55 -

For the same reason its patently illegal to fire someone because they are black. See federal law.

2:44 - Diversity doesn't encompass just racial/ethnic considerations. It's really sad that that is all it means to you.

I'm a WGWAW and my wife's great aunt constantly asks me how much I make and how much I paid for everything in my house. IBefore she comes over the house I always tell myself (I am not telling this woman anything but when she asks I always tell her. She's like 4'8" and 82 lbs and scares the shit out of me.

2:44...there is more to having a "diverse background" than sex or skin color. do you think George W Bush and some union dockworker have the same background? i mean, they're both white males, right?

Not too many sons and daughters of dock workers in BigLaw.

I think it's sad that you think diverse only means not part of your clique. I'm sick and tired of white people thinking they are poor... try living on food stamps, try picking tomatoes to pay the rent so you can go to college, try not having the money to buy a dress shirt to interview in. Poor to white people means they can't afford a second car. Diverse to white people means the guy went to a different prep school. The idiots that made the comments are nothing more than a-holes that never ventured out of their frat circle of friends, but pontificate like they know everything. Grow up... you're a bigot. That's all there is to it.

1:54(2) - did you leave Baker for this reason? And did you go to another Orlando firm?

Wait--you can't get foodstamps if you're white? White people can't be poor enough to do menial labor to pay for college? Crap! Are those federal crimes? What's the SOL? Should I call my parents and tell them we were illegally poor?

...And if you're trolling, nicely done.

3:48 - I'm new to this thread, but at a glance it seems pretty clear that you're the bigot

3:48 - And you can only work hard if you're poor, right? My family has worked really hard to get where we are. My generation hasn't made the sacrifices of which you speak, but my parents did in part and my grandparents surely did. They came to this country with virtually nothing. Some weeks my father went to lunch with lard sandwiches because they couldn't afford meat for the week. They worked hard and each generation has gotten further than the one that came preceded it. There is no doubt that I stand on the shoulders of my father and he on his. One day I hope to offer the same to my children.

I'll be damned if I act or feel ashamed for their accomplishments and fail to take advantage of the opportunities they've worked hard to give me simply because others either haven't been as fortunate or are simply a generation or two behind my family. We have worked hard to get where we've gotten. We've earned our accomplishments. So take your bullshit and go sell it to someone that doesn't understand what it means to EARN.

"Not too many sons and daughters of dock workers in BigLaw. "

My dad was a construction worker and my mom was a telephone operator. One of the girls here's mom was a maid. She made Yale Law Review (not the mom--although I suspect she'd have had a good shot had she been eligible)

Who are you all trying to fool? Why do you think there is La Raza? Why do you think black pastors say the things they do? Because the statements you make reveal that you are bigots, you demean, you belittle, you discount... And no this is not trolling... this is real life. I know you don't know what that is since you make stupid little comments. No minority believes the crap you have to sell... that's real life. Tell me... how many minorities are at Skadden or Cravath? And you talk down to me about "diversity". Get real... I'm not buying your tripe.

"I'm sick and tired of white people thinking they are poor... try living on food stamps, try picking tomatoes to pay the rent so you can go to college, try not having the money to buy a dress shirt to interview in. Poor to white people means they can't afford a second car. "

Guy, the clear majority of Americans living in poverty are "white".

"Tell me... how many minorities are at Skadden or Cravath?"

Tell me, how many "minorites" are in the top 5% at top 10 law schools? And remember, asians no longer count as "minorities" for these purposes.

3:18 -

I was not aware that someone who discusses his salary becomes a member of a protected class who enjoys the protection of Title VII. Perhaps you can point us to the relevant statute?

2:55

"Poor to white people means they can't afford a second car. Diverse to white people means the guy went to a different prep school."

Ugh. I hate this shit almost as much as I hate rich people who don't understand that people don't all live as they do.

3:42 what the f are you talkin about. what about all those that came to this country with nothing but knew the value of an education and whose children are in biglaw.

okay 1) lets not generalize "black pastors". As the daughter of one, I know that not all black pastors are busy attacking the country we live in instead of teaching the Word. 2) I grew up "poor" by alot of standards and not by others -I never used food stamps, or picked Tomatoes to pay rent, but I also never knew there were shoe stores BESIDES Payless. Either way I was taught to ( and did) bust my butt to get to where I am today as a BLACK FEMALE regardless of anybody else's opinions on what constitutes "diversity". And I knew alot of white people who were poor, and by that I mean that THEY were on food stamps, THEY couldn't pay the rent and THEY thought I was one of those spoiled "rich" kids who didn't understand the meaning of poor. I must say that while alot of people (white AND black) have limited views on what constitutes diversity, I agree with 3:58 that I am not going to apologize nor will I teach my children to apologize for having parents who worked hard and taught me to work hard so that I can now make what I make at a BigLaw firm. Maybe they ARE bigots who demean, belittle, and discount, but are you any better by stooping down to the level of namecalling?

4:30: I presume your father's sermons make more sense than your post.

The bitterness is real; the hatred is real. Its because of demeaning statements and the ignorance of bigots. I don't think you all have the right to talk down to me about diversity. Until you get rid of your elitist attitude, I reserve the right to call you a bigot. Out of respect for Lat... I'll leave it at that.

4:00, exactly. It's ridiculous for someone to assume any white person who makes a good salary was privileged and didn't work hard to get where they are today. My parents are farmers (and not the agri-business kind, either), so while I didn't pick tomatoes to pay for undergrad and law school, I did pick onions. Sorry if that pisses you off.

Just in my circle of friends, there is an associate whose father is a construction worker and another whose parents ran a bakery. I don't know who you have been talking to, but you need to widen your horizons a little.

4:22 (94)

Where did I reference Title VII or protected classes? Federal law covers employment related topics beyond Title VII. Like . . . say . . . I don't know . . . maybe . . .

29 U.S.C. Sec.151-169 (aka the NLRA)

Sincerely

3:18

To the guy who's raised the salary website a couple of times in the comments:

It's been done, a bunch of times. E.g., payscale.com; salary.com.

Good luck with your next idea.

To the original 11:24 - we took the words "catty" and "competitive" directly from your post. Your second post was much more mature and thoughtful; don't attack others for pointing out that you were the one perpetuating nasty stereotypes about women.

101 -

Are all employees and employers covered by the NLRA?

94

PS I like this new numbering scheme

"1:54(2) - did you leave Baker for this reason? And did you go to another Orlando firm?"

I left Baker because I was working New York hours for less than Orlando market pay. If you compare the NALP forms for Baker Orlando and Baker New York you will see that the Orlando associates worked more hours on average than the NY associates. We also worked more hours on average than other firms in Orlando (at least out of those who reported their hours).

The partners were very vocal about how much they hated paying our salaries. Last year at our attorney/paralegal retreat we had a required meeting where a few of the partners did nothing but complain about associate salaries. They talked about salaries almost doubling over the last decade, but made no mention of the huge increase in price of living or the huge increase hours demands the firm has put on associates.

I won't disclose the market where I work now, but I will say that my new firm has a transparent lockstep salary structure and gives market raises.

104 -

No, there are many exemptions.

101

105: I love when partners bitch about paying salaries. Okay, assholes - do the work yourselves.

1:32 - i was raised the same way, that it was incredibly tacky to talk about money, so it's been a hard habit for me to break as an attorney. that said, i do find think more transparency is a good thing and i see nothing wrong with discussing salary with colleagues or my friends who are also lawyers. it's just not something i'd have a conversation about with my artist friends--not that they'd even care.

"I don't think you all have the right to talk down to me about diversity. Until you get rid of your elitist attitude, I reserve the right to call you a bigot. "

Settle down Jesse. Lets have a drink at Russell's annual Def Hamptons Jam tomorrow.

Salary Transparency is awesome.

David Lat and ATL are the best for giving it to us.
Lat, if you ever fall on hard times, there are at least a few thousand associates who owe you some money.

103 said, "don't attack others for pointing out that you were the one perpetuating nasty stereotypes about women."

Stereotypes are a real time saver.

11:15 is awesome. are you single?

11:42 - I appreciate your take on the subject. What geographic area do you practice?