second?

Is EST the real time to end the "watch"? Heller has the most attorneys in San Fran and Baker has Chicago as its biggest office...just talking out loud though. I could be wrong too, I'm just going based on NALP.

5:32 - EST means EASTERN STANDARD TIME not EASTERN DAYLIGHT TIME (began on March 9 and ends on November 2). ET or EDT would be fine, as would Eastern time, New York time, etc. -- anything but EST.

Why is this so hard for people to wrap their heads around?

Does Baker & McKenzie really need to get bigger?

EST is the time to watch because the east coast is still highly relevant, and if you announce after they close for the day it looks like you're trying to bury your news.

Yes, Baker & McKenzie needs to get bigger - it's one of the top international firms, but it lacks strong domestic presence in critical areas, which it would get with Heller. Plus, the conflicts rules are obsolete and will be modified substantially in the next few years anyway, so getting bigger is not going to be such a big deal. Baker is just one of the first firms to see where the market is going (or at least one of the first to act on it).

5:43 - Because that's clearly the significant issue here. Way to get to the meat of the story.

Baker needs to get bigger in two locations:

Los Angeles and NYC. Merging (read "buying") Heller gets them an office in LA and will just about double their office in NYC.

It makes a lot of sense for Baker. Not sure how the Heller folks will benefit (except for the Heller partners getting paid).

bigshitty + bigshitty = megashitty

6:06 don't know much about B&M, but working at Heller beats working at most of the V50 anyday. Only idiots care about prestige rankings - the rest of us care about having a life. I just hope that merging with B&M won't change that.

6:13, I guarantee merging with a gigantic multinational billable-hours mill like B&M will change that drastically. Sorry.

Funny to see all the anti-merger Hellers out there bitching when the other possibility is sitting in the unemployment line...

"sitting in the unemployment line" = $10k bonus from lateral link to go do the same exact thing across the street. you know, worse things could happen.

I've heard that B&M's economics are different than most firms. Something along the line of each office is treated as its own cost center, and partnership profits are captured accordingly (i.e., no sharing of profits between offices). Can anyone confirm or provide additional information?

7:02, This might be true on a national level, but not for individual US offices.

somebody ought to be able to find out if the partner's (actually shareholders) got packets today about the merger.

somebody ought to be able to find out if the partner's (actually shareholders) got packets today about the merger.

It's almost as if there isn't going to be a merger.

Baker's a big, stinky poop. Heller's a not so stinky and fairly well-shaped turd that once upon a time had been lauded by AmLaw as one of the better places to work for.

So the big, stinky Baker poop will be ameliorated by that fairly well-shaped Heller turd which is nice for the Baker poop. For the Heller turd life might get a little shittier. But that's still better than getting flushed. In this regard, it's a win-win.

Baker grows because it's the only thing they know how to do.

6:13, i can't speak for all Baker offices - but in NYC you will definitely have a life and actual work - you know value-added work. Not the "billable mill" that non-baker schmucks proclaim.

Is Baker different? Absolutely. Is it better or worse? I guess that depends on perspective. Do you want other lawyers to thing you are a good lawyer? Or do you actually want to be a good lawyer?

6:13, i can't speak for all Baker offices - but in NYC you will definitely have a life and actual work - you know value-added work. Not the "billable mill" that non-baker schmucks proclaim.

Is Baker different? Absolutely. Is it better or worse? I guess that depends on perspective. Do you want other lawyers to thing you are a good lawyer? Or do you actually want to be a good lawyer?

6:13, if you're in tax, you should be fine. If you're in corporate, you're screwed. Baker does international implementation work: V20 NYC firms negotiate large M&A deal, Baker does the subsequent asset transfers in the 85 jurisdictions implicated. You'll correspond with foreign counsel 24/7 charging $350/h to correct their English while trying to make sense out of some weird local law requirements.

On the upside, you can toss out any literature you have on Delaware law, '33 or '34 Act, venture financings and anything else remotely related to US corporate law. You only might be competing with someone in India doing the exact same thing for $25/h in about three years from now.

"Do you want other lawyers to thing you are a good lawyer? Or do you actually want to be a good lawyer?"

I want to work for a firm that encourages its lawyers to spell gud.

9:27 - I thing you're a bad lawyer. "g" and "k" aren't even close on the keyboard.

9:48 - That's not true. The global reorg and post-merger integration group does, in fact, do exactly what you describe, but the corporate group does standard strategic M&A, securities, and general corporate advisory. Most of it has an international twist, though... a lot of cross-border M&A.

Once again - you want to work at a place where they hire people who would critique your spelling on a dumb shit message board - you'll be in trouble at Baker.

My point exactly. Deuchebags. (I have no clue whether I spelled deuchebag right or not and I don't care. I'm going to go upstairs with my hot wife - who married me because I have all the money you schmucks have and I actually get home by 8pm every night.)

You'll be fine at Baker.

10:01 - if you were a better lawyer, you'd have a wife and a mistress.

10:01 - You misspelled douchebag. Not that money matters, but if you think your $7,500 bonus is market, go upstairs with your wife and have a great time. As an aside, if your wife married for money and ended up with someone making little more than 200K, she can't be all that hot. 6:13, meet your new friend.

10:00, you can't be talking about public work. "International twist" is another way of saying that the little bit of strategic M&A Baker does is coming from international clients who know jack shit about the US legal market.

as previously noted on these pages, in an earlier piece on heller, this merger will not happen. it is not the first time that b&m will do something like this. back to coudert they did the same thing. b&m had the merger in place and then just took the ny office because they did not needd the international offices which orrick and others picked up.

What crap. You people are really too much. Baker & McKenzie is one of the only firms that is truly global and has had widespread penetration and success internationally. Heller Ehrman has made good progess in Asia and the UK, and has a well-earned reputation for excellent lawyering domestically. This is a good match. So swallow that load you assholes. It really doesn't diminish you...since, clearly, that is your REAL concern.

Baker has success internationally only in jurisdictions that V20 firms aren't interested in, Republic of Kazakhstan anyone? As soon as Skadden or Latham push into a lucrative market, everyone in their right mind and with the right resume leaves the local Baker offices - see Germany. Same will happen in China within the next five years. Similarly, if this merger happens, only those people at Heller will stay who weren't able to find anything better. Say what you want, but other than tax, Baker's business model is to sell high volume/low-end legal work...just like that international hamburger chain...but, hey, they're successful.

Good lord! Are your insecurities really that compelling that you have to pen such mindless drivel? Do you really think that you can predict the future ("...in China within the next five years."). Take a chill pill and learn some humility, buddy. Law firms are about money. And, there's only so much demand for the Skadden's and Latham's. The bulk of the pie is elsewhere. How many firms have ended up in the toilet by refusing to admit that there is no shame and plenty of profit in "second tier" engagements? Lose your shirt in London if you wish...Kazakhstan, here I come.

Baker is hugely successful in Europe and Asia Pacific with offices often being at the very top in those markets. It is typical US American arrogance to to assume that the world will still dance around that market in the future. Good-bye America, Europe is on the risea and Asia will overtake both.

German lawyer from Baker here. Please refrain from spelling douchebag as "Deuchebag."

As far as practice areas that matter are concerned, Baker is third or no tier in every European market other than Switzerland. Go check out Chambers. Don't pretend it's foie gras you're selling when in fact it's chicken mcnuggets.

But 10:02, let's acknowledge that there is a healthy market for chicken mcnuggets. Baker does well being a mid-market firm, focusing on high-volume low-cost legal work. There is nothing wrong with that, and from a business perspective, they seem to be doing fine.

That's fine, 12:02, but when I was deciding what firm to join out of law school, "high-volume low-cost legal work" was not what I was looking for. I'm sure that sentiment is shared by just about all of my colleagues at Heller.

Echo 12:20. I very much like working at Heller, and I am very worried a merger will destroy that.

Heller associates:

Now that it seems increasingly likely that there isn't going to be a merger after all, are you happy to know that your firm will be moving forward all by itself with a dwindling number of partners?

Absolutely 1:30. It may make the firm less profitable, but less leverage means more responsibility and substantive experience for us.

According to the Heller partners I talked with, there is quite a bit of strong opposition among the partner ranks against this proposed merger. Thus the Heller management is trying to drum up internal support, or perhaps ask the discontents to get out of dodge if they are unhappy, before making the announcement so as to avoid the embarrassment of having it voted down.

12:20, what were your considerations that led you to work at Heller? I assume that one of them was the "Heller culture" that my friends who have worked there seem to talk about a lot. If that is a concern for you, Baker is probably a lot better fit than most big firms. It's not Skadden -- but whether that is good or bad depends on what you value. If Heller has decided that it needs to merge to survive long term, it could do a lot worse than decide to merge with Baker.

1:58: I am not 12:20, but it is hard to understand how there could be a consistent culture across so massive an entity as Baker.

What I have heard is that each office has its own bottom line, so that culture may vary greatly from office to office, depending on the people in that office. If each office is thus relatively independent of any other, how could there be a consistent culture?

2:04, understood. I can't speak for all the offices, but at least in the Bay Area (where most Heller associates are) my experience at Baker has been pretty favorable (especially compared with my prior experience in BIGLAW elsewhere).

2:04, Baker's culture is mediocrity.

2:11,

I hear ya, but I am not in a Heller west coast office.

1:52 may be right. i heard from a heller partner (actually, shareholder) that there likely won't be a public announcement for a week or so while management tries to drum up support. according to my source, usually reliable, only about 40 or 50 shareholders know the actual details (or at least some of them), and many are still being kept in the dark. how is that for making people feel good about themselves....... hey, if there any heller partners reading this, why don't you let us know what you think.......

I don't think there is a "consistent" culture at Baker across all offices, but there are *consistencies*. Being in a 3,300 lawyer firm cutting across multiple cultures requires an ability to play well with others and a more developed level of social and communication skills. Thus, while different offices may have different styles, a common trend is a laid-back, friendly, and international style.

The argument that Baker does "high-volume low-cost legal work" is plainly misinformed. Most of Baker's US practices are specialized areas where there is little competition. It is certainly not commoditized work.

2:11, you're not in corporate then. They have zero experience in venture financings, no meaningful M&A capacity and know close to nothing about public company work. The entire brain power would come from Heller.

Just look at how many Baker lawyers it takes to generate $.5B in profit. Then compare with other AmLaw 100 firms. Then explain to me how "high volume, low cost" is misinformed. Last time I checked, Baker was ranked around 190 in value per attorney.

2:26, isn't that a good thing. The Heller people can keep their specialties and there won't be people stepping on each other's toes. Sounds like Baker is acquiring knowledge in an area where they lack and Heller is getting some added financial stability. Win-win...

2:41, Jaguar was saying the same thing when Ford acquired it. You're destroying a firm, a culture and the reason why clients chose you and not MoFo, Orrick or Fenwick.

i think most heller insiders would say that its culture is already destroyed as a result of the relentless chase for money and to satisfy the ego of management who want to think that they are as good as the big kids, even though they have never had the type of client base that the really big kids in the sandlot do have. Not that they don't deserve it; they used to be really fine lawyers, but for whatever reason, they don't have the clients and the revenues that the big guys have. they never did, and that was made up by their culture, that truly was different than the big guys. but that is now gone, so they may as well chase the big bucks b/c that is all they have left. but they shouldn't act so suprised when people walk out left and right, including a lot of the people they want to keep. The departures of David Goodwin and Paul Alexander, long time and well established partners hurts a lot more than Heller wants to admit and reflects sadly on what it has become.

2:58 is clearly the same troll who has posted a similar variation on this comment on every Heller post in the last several months.

Any word on the darn packets? Not that i care or anything.
What happened to all the partner-trolls that frequent ATL...guess you guys aren't really partners.

actually, 3:06, i would guess that 2:58 is just one of many who are saying things like that. it just sounds so familiar, but perhaps only because it is. he or she or they may all be right.

But why would you join a firm then whose PPP doesn't even crack the top 100? Doesn't make sense.

what was baker's ppp for 2007 as shown in am law?

2:58 is right on the money. Management decided that Heller should be more like a Skadden or Sidley rather than being content with who they were- a great (albeit regional) litigation firm with a laid back culture and cool people.

And look at where it got them.

2:58 is right on the money. Management decided that Heller should be more like a Skadden or Sidley rather than being content with who they were- a great (albeit regional) litigation firm with a laid back culture and cool people.

And look where it got them.

4:18
Why would you rely on PPP to decide what firm you are going to go to. PPP means nothing to new or even mid-level associates. You are dreaming if you think partners are going to give you more money because their PPP is greater. Whether its $1 million or $3 million you are still getting $160,000 and $35,00o bonus your first year.

All PPP is good for is to compare fictional law firm weenie length at your Ivy league secret handshake retreats.

4:18, are you talking about law students/lateral associates, or are you talking about firms looking to merge? From the associate's perspective, the lowest-PPP firm that still pays market salary is the best place to go. (You will work the least amount of hours for the same pay.)

5:01 i think that 4:18 still thinks that partner is a reality. ha ha ha!

PPP is drilled into a lot of law students head's as being the most important thing to look for.

In reality, PPP is probably the most useless factor to consider when deciding where to work as a junior and mid-level associate.

Your own compensation (including benefits), required hours, potential for personal growth, and quality of life should really be the only factors you need to consider (in whatever priority you decide).

It's in response to 2:58 who complained about Heller management selling out. I may be dreaming, but I haven't yet seen a firm with a high PPP which is rumored to offer low-end work. Bottom line, only people with a short weenie take a relativistic stance on the importance of weenie length.

Yours truly,

-Dirk Dickler

5:06 is dead on. Low associate to partner ratio is one of the reasons I went to Heller. Low leverage may mean less PPP, but it makes for better associate quality of life.

2:40: Lawyers in many foreign jurisdictions bill a lot less and make a lot less than US attorneys, and are less profitable in real terms. US partners and associates probably do make a bit less than peers, but it's not that significant of a difference. And it is more than made-up for in the perks of an international firm: training and development, associate transfer program, meetings in foreign locales, etc. Particularly if you like travel (and to singapore rather than akron), Baker can have a lot of attractive qualities that outweigh a bigger bonus (and some comp aspects of Baker are better than market, such as their bar gift).

2:58 shoots and scores! If 2:20(1) has it right (and from my perspective of a decade+ at Heller it sure sounds right), there's your perfect illustration of the management style that led to this.

Don't know if either 2:58 or 4:34 are/were at Heller, but I was, and I think their observations are spot on. Circa mid-to-late 1990's, when I joined, there was a definite Heller culture that I valued. By the time I left a few years ago, that culture was buried, sorry to say.

For a variety of reasons, I have a number of friends inside Heller (I am not there.) I am told that (1) the general consensus is that virtually no associate (an overgeneralization, I am sure, but this is what I have been told) and many partners trust virtually thing that management states., (2) partners who have spoken fall into two camps - those that know what is going on - who don't say anything - and those that are kept in the dark. Those who are in the dark are very nervous and assume that they are not really wanted or will get the shaft one way or the other soon after the merger is disclosed. The people I talk with, though, cannot get a handle on how many people are in the know or are being excluded. The feeling is that the excluded group is much larger than the favored group. The favored group isn't talking, though, and won't confirm that the merger partner is B&McK but they don't deny that either.

5:37, you don't know what you are talking about. AmLaw uses US numbers. And if they didn't you'd be better off. London, Hong Kong, Moscow, Zurich and formerly Germany are/were significantly more profitable than any of the US offices. Baker US didn't keep their part of the bargain. That's why the entire German M&A/private equity team left for Skadden/Latham. But, whatever, Heller appears to be going down the drain anyway, maybe that's why Baker thinks it's a good fit.

Seems like a lot of former Heller lawyers have been popping up in the comments. What do all of you do now? Do you work at firms? If so, why did you leave Heller?

Any updates? Have interviewed with both of them separately but neither firm mentioned a merger.

Clearly they would have been straight about it with an interviewee, but only rarely with a partner.

http://legalpad.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/heller-partners.html

I am sorry to read all of this. Heller Ehrman has lots of smart and talented lawyers. The staff is also great. I wish you all the best of luck.

Wow....I like working at heller. I never knew there were so many latent hostilities.

cool.

So this means that Heller is going to be a lot less selective at OCI this fall, right?

11.26,

May I just say, as one of the few lawyers who still come here, that stupid law student comments like yours are the reason we stopped coming here.