first ... to say don't tell

Do NOT under any circumstances tell them that you are looking elsewhere. This can only hurt you.

Of course they shouldn't tell, but let's not pretend that it's not dishonest to lie when asked by a recuiter if you're looking elsewhere and saying, "No, I'm not." But you're right; it's not exactly none of the firm's business (they do have a vested interest in identifying SAs who might later reject an offer), but it's an inappropriate question and one that I would not recommend that any SA who's considering looking elsewhere answer honestly, at least unless they're 100% sure that they would not accept an offer from their current firm. Sounds like the firm is fishing for reasons to no-offer people.

Tell interviewer that you think he/she is a douche nozzle, but under no circumstances should you divulge anything more.

Its ok to say you're looking at clerkships if you are at a V50 firm for the summer. They generally encourage that sort of thing and will try to bring you back if you actually get one, or try to get you to accept an offer and commit to coming to the firm after your clerkship is offer.

It is not ok to answer the other question about going to another region for "personal reasons." Stay mum on that one.

Homer: Homer Simpson does not lie twice on the same form. He never has, and he never will.

Marge: You lied dozens of times on our mortgage application.

Homer: Yeah, but they were all part of a single *ball* of lies.

Tell them you are looking at other firms in the area for professional reasons

Answer no. This is a terrible question.

Which is better: (1) filling ATL with doughy filler on an apparently slow day; or (2) saying nothing on ATL at all.

Seeking employment seems to imply currently sending out resumes and interviewing. I would say no on that, although it is misleading at best if you're really going to look hard at other places.

Just say something like, "I enjoyed working for the firm and could definitely see being here in the future."

Assuming you actually enjoyed some aspect of the summer, it's not a lie since you seem willing to work there if everything else falls through.

Do not tell them you're looking for a clerkship, especially if you're hoping to get one of the few spots in a smaller department at a large firm. I made that mistake. I was gunning for a small department, but thought the fact that I was applying for clerkships would make me more attractive. So I told them. Instead, they didn't give me the spot I was hoping for because they couldn't hold it for a year. I ended up not doing a clerkship, but by then it was too late. (In hindsight, it was a blessing in disguise, but at the time I was very disappointed.)

so what's the genius plan if you do go somewhere else, and hiring partner asks to your face "oh, i thought you weren't looking anywhere else?"

respond "oh i lied" and then watch as your character and fitness report gets surprise-rejected when you apply for the bar and your "other geographic area" job offer is gone. everyone knows everyone in the big firm world, lying will not help you.

i definitely knew many people who were given offers in two regions (split summers, etc.), and the firms each knew. if you're someone they want to hire, it won't be an issue.

This SA is in serious need of a witness prep session. Read exactly what the question is asking you and answer only that question. We don't have the wording, but I'll bet there's a reasonable reading to which "no" is an honest answer.

This SA is in serious need of a witness prep session. Read exactly what the question is asking you and answer only that question. We don't have the wording, but I'll bet there's a reasonable reading to which "no" is an honest answer.

Guys at my high school used to lie to interviewers all the time. It was no big deal.

Guys at my high school used to lie to interviewers all the time. It was no big deal.

While I'm not about to tell my firm that I'm headed back to flyover land the moment I graduate from law school (thanks for the summer, NYC!), it doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal for most people. I would bet that the large majority of summer associates in the big markets have every intention of sticking around for all of two years while they pay off debt. After that, the firm knows as well as they do that they'll head out for slightly greener pastures (and less billable hours). Without this sort of attrition, we'd see even more CWT-type massacres. For whatever reason, however, this must go unspoken in the interview process.

14: the last paragraph is probably the most applicable here and what the firm means. The other issue about character and fitness is a red herring and there's no way a character and fitness application would be held up for this issue.

If confronted, you would just say that you explored other opportunities and determined that it was best for your career.

I advocate a strict "Ask, Still Don't Tell" policy on this.

i would answer no to both questions.
look out for yourself first; the firm can take care of itself.

Why not just leave the answer field blank on that Q?

Who say's you have to answer every quesion on an exit interview form?

Guys at my high school used to lie on exit interview forms all the time, it was no big deal.

@20 - all i'm saying is, why risk it? if you can get knocked in C & F for failing to disclose a speeding ticket, why not for lying, in writing, to your employer?

the path toward a law career is filled with a million traps to get you to lie. why fall into an obvious one where lying is likely unnecessary?

14: are you trying to induce paranoia in the readers? I'm no expert, but I don't think that a C&F application will be rejected because you allegedly lied to a hiring partner -- it's far more likely that you started looking after you left, after the interview, after your concerns about how the job went.

And why not tell them the truth? "You're not doing very well right now and I'm a little worried about my future here. Would it be all right if I looked elsewhere?"

No to both - not their business, not in your best interest. Period. There is no way this will come back to bite you in the ass and if it does, who cares?

"the path toward a law career is filled with a million traps to get you to lie."

I was wondering why the others were so adamant about playing truth or dare!

If you were ever confronted, you could easily say that the "personal reasons" arose after the exit interview and at the moment you had every intention of staying in the same geographical area.

14,
you need to relax. it's not like the firm is going to conduct an investigation to confirm that you actually lied on your exit interview. as 26 noted, it's possible that one could have started looking elsewhere after completing the form.

It can't hurt to be honest about the clerkship question.

But in no way should you tell them anything except that you are excited about coming back to the firm (either next year or after a clerkship).

hey, i'm just advocating devilishly.

chances are most lies never make any difference, but somehow i think lying to your employer is different. not just for C&F, but because again, the law firm world is small and tightly knit. i can see it now, a cocktail party -

"well one of our summers last year thought he needed to lie and say he didn't have any other offers on the table in our exit interview."

"really? he lied about that? what's his name?"

but who knows, if it happened, then ATL could post about it and you guys could all berate the guy who lied and say he gets what deserves for lying.

30: wrong. There'll be a paper trial of communication with other firms. They can hunt that down and show that you were attempting to move before the interview.

*trail

32: have you ever been to a party? Nobody discusses those issues.

If 96 Cadwalader summers had answered "maybe" to this question this month, they wouldn't have needed to do any lay-offs.

32 appears to have all the speculative prowess of someone who has never spent a second of his life in the real world.

Dear 20:

When you start down the road of making shit up to the Bar to explain other stuff you lied about is when the Bar goes nuclear.

Every time you mail or fax a resume to another firm it can be established when it was sent (i.e. before you filled out the exit questionnaire). Not that such a thing is likely to become an issue, but if it does it is dumb to lie about things that can be disproven with documents outside you control.

Therefore, it depends on who is doing the confronting.

If it is the old firm after you accept the new job a polite no comment is the way to go vs a lie.

If it’s the Bar asking you about something, ALWAYS tell the truth.

@ 38 - thank you. that's all i was saying - likely a non-issue, but don't be so stupid as to screw up on something like this that in all likelihood doesn't matter.

C&F problems may be a little outside the realm of probability, but not entirely - you have to fill out where you've worked, and a contact person, so the bar examiners could contact your former employers and ask if there were any problems.

~14

15,

Judge Elizabeth Halverson once ate 5,000 lbs of doughy filler in one sitting. No joke!

37: Exactly. Wow. You people are incredibly paranoid. Do you actually think a firm that you're considering going to keeps the fax/e-mail record of when you sent your resume? Do you actually think you're that important? You're not running for President. Calm the hell down. And "no comment" is going to be a hell of a lot more memorable than saying "No" and having it turn out to be "Yes."

And the law firm world isn't that tightly-knit, sorry to say. I've seen people disgraced at their law firm go on to other law firms with no problem. Partners are busy and generally have pretty bad memories (you'll find). Calm down.

33,
why would they need to "hunt" that down?
that was my point. it's a freaking exit interview questionnaire.

-30

I'm a big fan of the always tell the truth mentality. I agree with David that the question should be read to mean: "are you definitely going somewhere else?"

Any other reading would make it a highly improper question, and we all know lawyers would never ask an improper question.

42: I don't know why they might hunt it down. Why do people hunt down anything? Because they're hunters, I guess.

My point is simple: if you say "no" while communicating with other firms, then that paper trail might haunt you.

41,
thank you so much. my thoughts exactly.
-30/42

why are some of you guys defending lying anyway? that's kind of a weird thing to advocate.

On the lying to your employer / C & F thing, I am sorry, but this is absolutely absurd. Seriously - unless you list the partner to whom you are lying as a reference, it is highly unlikely that s/he is going to take the time to actually file a complaint to the state bar (not to mention s/he would have to find out what state bar you are taking in order to do that), and you would be given ample opportunity - likely in the C & F interview - to respond... if anyone actually cared enough to ask about it, that is. Case in point: we had a summer associate several years ago who was fired from being a summer for a pretty serious offense, which had she pulled such a stunt with his law school, would have gone on his/her transcript and likely been an issue for the bar examiners of our state. S/he is presently actively licensed in our state and working with another firm in the same city. Come on... do you really think that the people on the hiring committees of firms have nothing better to do than to parse through exit interview responses and file complaints with state bars based on who declined an offer? Seriously. Think before you speak, please!

47: can you give us an idea of the offense?

what's to be gained by telling them?

question two is absurd. anyone who answers yes is a moron. and what is with this concern over a paper trail? it's not like the FBI is coming to your door to seize your computer.

As for the clerkship question, check with your school's OCI to see if your firm is interviewing for 3L clerks. It's only a small # of firms, but If they are, it's pretty safe to assume that they wouldn't mind if you clerked. It probably also makes a difference whether your firm is one where a lot of people have clerked; you might ask around.

46: Because the firm shouldn't be asking, and it doesn't deserve an honest answer.

Some people think they are much more important than they really are.

Ask yourself what you will do with your time if you ever make partner at a major firm. Where do you think the category "summer associates whom we did not hire" will rank?

To all the skeptics of not answering the question:

Plans change. If a firm is dumb enough to interpret a "no" as an "I earnestly hope to work here until I die with no chance of moving elsewhere," then it's their own fault for asking a question they have no right to ask.

If you really had balls, you'd answer the question with another question, in the line of "is my job security absolute or will I get sacrificed to PPP gods the moment it's convenient"?

deny deny deny

53,

If I spent 7-10 years billing 2400+ to make partner I'm not sure how I would react. I might poor myself a glass of Johnnie Walker Blue and get off on the fact that I have the power to completely screw someone over even though I've never seen one of my kid's soccer games.

all the C&F and etc stuff aside, what about just the age old adage that you um, shouldn't lie?

the question is clearly asking if you're planning to work somewhere else based on where your spouse gets a job - for "personal reasons" would not mean "any reason," and if you already know you're moving to another state with your spouse, i don't see how it's inappropriate for the firm to want to know that.

it's messed up that this board think two girls who kiss should get fired but say the firm is in the wrong for even asking this question, and thus you have the right to lie.

this is a good question for a poll. I'd keep my mouth shut and not say I'm looking elsewhere.

Just say no. You can email or mail resumes and not be looking for a job. Though not the same field, my dad (and many engineers) do that all the time; send out resumes all the time with no intentin of leaving your current job (remember, its intent, not actual actions that are in play here). Then when the old "at will" bites you in the ass, you already havea field that knows you are out there (and has prob contacted you several times already).

Just don't "seek employment", rather "send your email out to firms in other areas and go on interviews, but have absolutely no intention (until after the summer is over) of leaving" Geez, for all being gunner lawyers, you really suck at telling an answer without lying.

As for the clerkship, its such a toss up thing, dont say.

And if the 1-off 1 in a million chance it does come up, just say taht the time of the exit interview had come, you were NOT considering leaving (you wanted a job there), but because the market was so bad prior to taht, you wanted to play the field, but with no intention of leaving.

In the end, the firm doesnt give a rats ass about youa nd will lie to your face. Just return the favor.

I would read question 2 as asking, "Will you definitely decline an offer at this firm because you have determined that you will not be living in this area of the country?" That is a fair question, and presumably if the answer is "yes," then you won't care if this answer causes you to get no-offered or cold-offered. I think it's a fair question for a firm to ask, particularly if the firm has a limited number of offers to give and wants to try to give those offers to candidates who are seriously considering accepting them.

If you are simply keeping your options open, but have not ruled out accepting an offer at the firm, you should answer "no" or "N/A." While the bar examiners get picky about incredibly stupid things (failure to disclose speeding tickets, failing to IMMEDIATELY amend your C&F application after applying for and receiving a new credit card), the idea that answering this question "no" when you simply haven't decided what you want to do yet could get you dinged is absurd. People, there are members of the bar who have felony convictions. Nobody is going to give a flying f*** that you wanted to preserve your offer at your summer firm while keeping your options and looking at other firms.

14 cannot yet be in the real world.

I would read question 2 as asking, "Will you definitely decline an offer at this firm because you have determined that you will not be living in this area of the country?" That is a fair question, and presumably if the answer is "yes," then you won't care if this answer causes you to get no-offered or cold-offered. I think it's a fair question for a firm to ask, particularly if the firm has a limited number of offers to give and wants to try to give those offers to candidates who are seriously considering accepting them.

If you are simply keeping your options open, but have not ruled out accepting an offer at the firm, you should answer "no" or "N/A." While the bar examiners get picky about incredibly stupid things (failure to disclose speeding tickets, failing to IMMEDIATELY amend your C&F application after applying for and receiving a new credit card), the idea that answering this question "no" when you simply haven't decided what you want to do yet could get you dinged is absurd. People, there are members of the bar who have felony convictions. Nobody is going to give a flying f*** that you wanted to preserve your offer at your summer firm while keeping your options and looking at other firms.

14 cannot yet be in the real world.

Hiliarious question.

There is no way this guy is going to hack it as a lawyer.

HTH.

Hiliarious question.

There is no way this guy is going to hack it as a lawyer.

HTH.

Hiliarious question.

There is no way this guy is going to hack it as a lawyer.

HTH.

@ 61 - you can thank this insane, faux-honesty driven legal world for making me paranoid is hell.

~14

This is obviously a self-serving question by the law firm. What do you think they are going to do with it, other than use it for their nefarious ends? When a law firm says that a round of lay-offs is something other than it is, that is par for the course. Similarly, an appropriate prevarication (white lie, perhaps?) in this instance would not be lying, but is simply how the business world works if you want to survive. I would liken it to puffery.

I don't think it is a big deal for a law student not to see that. Learning how to preserve your ethics AND save your skin is something you can only really learn in the real world, through consideration of experiences such as this one. Good luck!

Maybe it's an IQ test. Those who are stupid enough to admit they are looking elsewhere fail and do not get an offer.

HTH.

I'm pretty sure asking about "personal reasons" is the Firm's way of asking about things they're not allowed to ask (marital status, pregnancies, illnesses in the family requiring FMLA leave, etc.)

I vote you look out for yourself first and give a non-answer to the questions.

60/61 has it right. The question clearly asks if you are looking elsewhere "for personal reasons." So, if you plan on living in San Francisco with your girlfriend, then you could answer yes and forget about this. But if you are considering taking the offer from this firm, then answer no. Even if you are considering employment elsewhere for personal reasons, you can say "no," because you could never be made to answer for this. You could make up any number of other reasons (or even state true ones) that led you to accept the other offer in San Fransisco. So, let's not make this about "honesty" or "dishonesty" because it is really much simpler than that.

7 - classic. sounds familiar huh?

Everyone who said they wouldn't lie "because it's bad to lie" is retarded. Seriously. This is what we do for a living people; we obfuscate, we blur, we shape facts that ensure our clients win, and, above all, we get away with as much as we can within the rules we have. Stop being a bunch of idealistic, afraid-of-life hippies and realize that this kid owes nothing to the firm (this is coming from an equity partner here) and has, in this job market, a lot to lose by being no-offered.

To the questioner:

Say no, think of some reason why its plausible for you to suddenly change your mind after the survey and wait a week or so before you actively seek employment elsewhere.

No wonder so many of you drop out like little bitches after two years.

Everyone who said they wouldn't lie "because it's bad to lie" is retarded. Seriously. This is what we do for a living people; we obfuscate, we blur, we shape facts that ensure our clients win, and, above all, we get away with as much as we can within the rules we have. Stop being a bunch of idealistic, afraid-of-life hippies and realize that this kid owes nothing to the firm (this is coming from an equity partner here) and has, in this job market, a lot to lose by being no-offered.

To the questioner:

Say no, think of some reason why its plausible for you to suddenly change your mind after the survey and wait a week or so before you actively seek employment elsewhere.

No wonder so many of you drop out like little bitches after two years.

Everyone who said they wouldn't lie "because it's bad to lie" is retarded. Seriously. This is what we do for a living people; we obfuscate, we blur, we shape facts that ensure our clients win, and, above all, we get away with as much as we can within the rules we have. Stop being a bunch of idealistic, afraid-of-life hippies and realize that this kid owes nothing to the firm (this is coming from an equity partner here) and has, in this job market, a lot to lose by being no-offered.

To the questioner:

Say no, think of some reason why its plausible for you to suddenly change your mind after the survey and wait a week or so before you actively seek employment elsewhere.

No wonder so many of you drop out like little bitches after two years.

Does anyone know if everyone who said they wouldn't lie because it's bad to lie is retarded? Seriously?

The correct answer is "No, I'm looking at other firms because I don't want to work for a $h!t hole firm that would ask a question like that". You could, of course, leave out everything after the comma and still not be lying.

If I were the firm I'd never hire an SA with the poor judgment to answer "yes" to that question.

Kash for editor.

Dear 47:

Highly unlikely to get caught does not equal OK to lie.

my firm gave me a similar question in an exit interview this afternoon. i was asked whether I was, "for personal reasons, seeking employment in another geographic region *in which the firm has an office*." I took this question as an effort to keep summers within the firm despite a change in personal circumstances.

77: Fine. If you consider covering your ass when being asked an inappropriate question a lie, then you're going to have a long road ahead of you. Please don't be blindsided when the same firm proclaims its financial health one day and lays off associates the next.

Also, were you 100% honest in all of your interviews? When you got praise for an achievement that you know damn well wasn't that competitive, did you pipe up and say "Oh, well, I got that internship because my father knew somebody at the company"?