This is not suprising as I heard Thelen is doing pretty poorly. I wonder though who they could merge with since their PPP is a lot lower than most AMLAW 100 firms.

Thelen = sinking ship. No merger is going to save them.

Thelen Reid + Heller Ehrman?

Thelen + Sonnenschein - a match made in hell

Maybe a merger would work with KL Gates or Perkins Coie who I think have similar PPP. Or maybe a more mid size NYC firm would be interested because of Thelen's CA offices.

I second Thelen Reid + Heller Ehrman; if for no other reason than the fact that the resultant firm could be called "The(len) (Ehr)Man." And anyways, two super-shitty firms deserve one another.

Thelen is not shitty!

Thelen and Heller are both good firms, going through tough times.

Recession = When Bad Things Happen To Good Firms

What's a Thelen?

Recession = When the cream of the crop starts to rise.

K&L Gates takes on another underperforming firm???

4:51 - Best. Post. Ever.

5:03 = Thelen/Heller Associate

The common thread running through this post is not merely the bad economy. It is the CT legal market. Are Thelen and Tyler the only shops hurting in CT, or is the CT legal market in trouble in general?

"Is excessive debt the herpes of the law firm world?"

Negative. The herpes of the law firm world is, to no one's surprise ... drumroll... herpes!

How in the world is 4:51 a noteworthy post? I am honestly asking for a justification (though I obviously disagree with 5:03's conclusion).

Seriously - how is that the best post ever? It's not funny or insightful or witty or even sincere... Blech.

4:51 is obviously in denial.

There's no way K&L Gates would merge with Thelen. No need, thank you.

5:12 - if you were from SF, you might understand.

thelen is hurting, they rescinded offers in the fall for incoming '09 associates

Brown Raysman was a great place to work. They should have never merged with Thelen.

Recession happens when you pull your Fried Frank out of your Cravath and it hurts.

""saying the firm was exploring the possibility of a merger with a larger firm.""

Merging with a larger firm? Thelen is already, what, 600 strong?

I tell you what though, it would be nice to see Thelen merge with a firm that pays market salary and lockstep bonuses in all offices. Thelen right now has two pay scales and salary ranges for each class. If a merger could mean the other firm's salary structure becomes Thelen salary structure, I'm all for it.

Who are the firms that are larger than Thelen that would be candidates? Mayer Brown? Milbank Tweed? Fried Frank? White & Case? Maybe Quinn Emmanuel?

Pillsbury is the name being floated...

CWT will eat Thelen alive! Raw dog.

"Pillsbury is the name being floated..."

Pillsbury? Do they at least pay market? What about bonuses?

5:24 - my understanding was that they only pushed back Fall '08 first years to January '09. Where have you heard they rescinded offers?

Pillsbury pays market salary. Non-market bonuses.

Any source on this "pillsbury is the name being floated" statement?

As a Thelen person, I am hoping it's Quinn. Quinn pays that NY market salary in all offices (NY market bonus to everyone who hits 2000 too), and the firm pays the entire health insurance premiums for associates and staff. That's what I'm talkin' about!

Here's the deal. Last year's avg PPP was like $800k, not bad, but they need more. I think sometimes they lose out on work because the Thelen name doesn't carry the reputation of, say, Wilson Sonsini, or Cravath. Perhaps Thelen needs to be fully acquired and assimilated into another firm. LIke Mayer Brown, but in that case I was thinking the Thelen name would fade away and it would all just big super-huge Mayer Brown.

I'm surprised nobody said DLA Piper. They are M&A psycho when it comes to law firms.

Anyone who thinks Quinn would take on thelen's mess is a fool...

To the Thelen associate(s) who took it upon themselves to leak the contents of the memo:
Act like you've been there before, get your facts straight and show some professionalism.

A disappointed Thelen associate

what memo

"Anyone who thinks Quinn would take on thelen's mess is a fool..."

Why? Quinn has the money to solve Thelen's short term problems. Also, as soon as Thelen is brought in, Thelen attorneys billing rates would be raised to Quinn rates (which makes sense if the new Quinn Thelen would use Quinn's salary structure) and legacy Quinn partners work with legacy Thelen partners to make a new super firm to compete with the elites... Quinn needs to expand, and Thelen is a perfect opportunity (Quinn needs Thelen, Thelen needs Quinn)...makes TONS of sense to me and I suspect others...

Doesn't Thelen mainly do construction litigation?

The Quinn Emanuel stuff is absurd. Quinn has been in trial for the last two months in Riverside and gave a closing this week -- do you think he's really focused on anything but that? Besides, Thelen's litigation practice (at least in California) is a total joke. Beyond hopeless.

Quinn Thelen does make some sense

For getting business, both firms could use each other reps.

For the courts, judges have more respect for Thelen than Quinn, so both sides could benefit. Of course Thelen associates could benefit from Quinn's pay in which all associates nationwide get NYC market pay and NYC market bonus for simply hitting 2000 hours.

The Quinn Emanuel stuff is absurd. Quinn has been in trial for the last two months in Riverside and gave a closing this week -- do you think he's really focused on anything but that? Besides, Thelen's litigation practice (at least in California) is a total joke. Beyond hopeless.

I can't see a Quinn-Thelen merger ever happening.

"Besides, Thelen's litigation practice (at least in California) is a total joke. "

On both coasts they are building an IP (patent lit) practice. Makes tons of sense if Quinn also wants to get in on that.

How about Gibson Dunn and Thelen? That could definitely work.

I would wish Thelen would merge with Sullivan & Cromwell

Sincerely,
Thelen Associate who wants to be paid market salary in all domestic offices

To Disappointed Thelen Associate: What makes you think that the memo was leaked by some disgruntled associate and not (a) firm management, or (b) a disgruntled partner ?

Maybe Boies, Schiller, and Flexner is a possibility? They only have a blip of an appearance in the Bay Area with a small Oakland (why???) office. Boies Schiller could work, but I like Gibson Dunn and Sullivan & Cromwell (and Quinn) better.

I heard that Thelen is going to initiate a hostile takeover of Wachtell...and there ain't nothing they can do about it.

Did the source provide a copy of the memo? It seems a bit fishy that we're only hearing about a line from a memo and not seeing the entire text. Perhaps there is no memo...

Could you imagine the frenzy the legal world would go into if Wachtell acquired Thelen and all of Thelen's offices were now new Wachtell offices?

Half the legacy Thelen people would jump for joy because of the compensation and prestige, the other half would go running for the hills because of the Wachtell quality of life horror stories.

I'd love it though, I want market pay + 100% bonuses in California....sign me up!

What about WilmerThelen?

How about Wilmer Hale? They are trying hard to build up their west coast presence, and they also are merger happy...

so, thelen would be looking to get into the type of merger that got them into trouble in the first place?

hi firm x, this is thelen. we took on too much debt in the brown raysman merger. would it be too much trouble if you took on our enormous debt so we could be all happy cheery? we promise we will be really super nice and try not to screw up your business too much. love and kisses, thelen.

thelen would be best served by closing its east coast offices and focus on being an elite west coast firm. they do have strong practices in CA especially in construction, general commercial lit and transactions, and environmental law. instead of looking to merge with another firm, they should trim the brown raysman fat, stop trying to keep up with all of the other large firms who try to practice in everything (ahem, thelen's ip practice), and stick to what they are good at.

just my 2 cents.

"so, thelen would be looking to get into the type of merger that got them into trouble in the first place?"

No, they'd be looking for a merger that would increase their PPP's. The other merger candidate would be looking for an under-valued firm (Thelen) that, if acquired would raise their PPP.

The idea is Thelen's PPP is $800k. They want it higher.

Say Quinn is at $1 mil PPP. They want it higher.

They might together think a merger could yield $1.5 mil - 2 mil PPP. That's why both sides would be involved (NOTE: Just a hypo to make a point, that's all)

1) The memo went to all attorneys and all staff, so anyone could have leaked it;

2) Thelen hasn't rescinded any offers; they did push the incoming class's start date 2009;

3) Thelen DC and Thelen SF (for the most part) are doing well; NY and LA are flailing. Other offices too small to have an impact; and

4) The Brown Raysman merger got us a couple of good practices and some good attorneys, but the other 80% of the old firm has dragged everything else down (most of the associate layoffs were legacy Brown Raysman).

"3) Thelen DC and Thelen SF (for the most part) are doing well; NY and LA are flailing. Other offices too small to have an impact; and"

Really? I heard that the Silicon Valley (San Jose) office is the strongest office across the board, especially for patent and commercial lit, not to mention patent prosecution.

"3) Thelen DC and Thelen SF (for the most part) are doing well; NY and LA are flailing. Other offices too small to have an impact; and"

So a firm could come around, acquire Thelen, and then generally get rid of Thelen NY and Thelen LA and only keep SF, DC, SV, CT, and NJ. Makes a lot of sense...

7:10PM

Uh huh. There are 25 attorneys in the SV (read: San Jose) office. I'm sure they have strong practices and that the hive is buzzing - but there are 25 of you. If you wish, lump yourselves in with SF and we can call it Bay Area.

"3) Thelen DC and Thelen in the Bay Area (for the most part) are doing well; NY and LA are flailing. Other offices too small to have an impact; and"

does your boo boo feel better now?

"3) Thelen DC and Thelen SF (for the most part) are doing well; NY and LA are flailing. Other offices too small to have an impact; and"

So a firm could come around, acquire Thelen, and then generally get rid of Thelen NY and Thelen LA and only keep SF, DC, SV, CT, and NJ. Makes a lot of sense..."

Wouldn't it be more likely that the acquiring firm would just poach the strong practice groups, rather than merge with the entire firm and try to dump the LA and NY offices?

"Wouldn't it be more likely that the acquiring firm would just poach the strong practice groups, rather than merge with the entire firm and try to dump the LA and NY offices?"

Sure, so an acquiring firm could just acquire Thelen SF, SV, DC, CT, and NJ and just not acquire NY and LA. That would leave NY and LA as their own firm, and they would likely promptly shut down.

7:16

If they could make it happen, that would be the smartest move, it seems to me. The gems are Construction, Energy, Project Finance, China practice, Outsourcing and some v. smart IP folks.

Interesting you bring up China, could be that another firm may be interested in Thelen because that could get them into China. Not even close to all AMLAW 100 firms have a China presence. Thelen has a Chinese version of their website!

6:17 = obv. Wilson troll. Almost as bad as Skadden trolls.

"6:17 = obv. Wilson troll. Almost as bad as Skadden trolls."

Whateva, whateva,

BUT that reminds me, what about Skadden? Now there's an intriguing possibility!

-Thelen associates who desperately want to be paid at least market salary in all domestic offices

is this a rumor or has it been confirmed?

It's confirmed.

THIS JUST IN: Jenkins & Gilchrist to acquire Thelen!

What has been confirmed? That Thelen wants to merge with a larger firm or that they have found a merger partner?

It's confirmed, BUT the memo in question was not quoted/cited properly.

As a Thelen associate, I don't care who the merger is with, as along we get market lockstep salaries in all domestic offices.

There are some 6th years at Thelen who make the same amount as 3rd-4th years at other firms. That's unacceptable.

"What has been confirmed? That Thelen wants to merge with a larger firm or that they have found a merger partner?"

That they want to merge, they never specifically said "with a larger firm," but it's implied. No partner has been found yet, but speculation is rampant: Heller Ehrman, Pillsbury, Gibson Dunn, Wilmer Hale, Quinn Emmanuel, and Sullivan & Cromwell, to name a few candidates

Seems like Proskauer has been fishing for potential merger partners (rumored to have once been in talks w/ Heller)..and didn't a bunch of Thelen partners leave for Proskauer - maybe a Proskauer-Thelen merger?

8:02,

Is the speculation from within the firm? i.e. are you an insider? or are you just summarizing other ATL posts? serious question, not a flame.

"Seems like Proskauer has been fishing for potential merger partners (rumored to have once been in talks w/ Heller)..and didn't a bunch of Thelen partners leave for Proskauer - maybe a Proskauer-Thelen merger?"

From Proskauer's POV, that works. But if I'm Thelen, I want Quinn, or Gibson Dunn, or McDermott, or Sullivan & Cromwell...that because if I am Thelen, I want a name that has MORE reputation that mine, not less. Proskauer doesn't work in that case.

"Is the speculation from within the firm? i.e. are you an insider? or are you just summarizing other ATL posts? serious question, not a flame."

I'm an insider.

8:10:

I would think Proskauer is more prestigious than all the named firms with the exception of Sullivan. but interesting info - thanks.

Insider, what's the story on how close this is to happening? Does the memo being published mean that the firm is in advanced stages of negotiations?

OMG, I cannot believe I forgot about the PERFECT candidate here...KIRKLAND AND ELLIS!! Of course, both sides would benefit, including Thelen associates who would get paid fairly for a change and Kirkland gets to add construction and energy prowess and bolster their IP groups...don't know why I didn't think of it before!

"Insider, what's the story on how close this is to happening? Does the memo being published mean that the firm is in advanced stages of negotiations?"

They are just looking into possibilities, nothing close yet.

"They are just looking into possibilities, nothing close yet."

So why did they publish a memo? It sounds like they wanted this news to be leaked. It's not even news, it's just a hope or a desire or a fantasy...

Yep, 8:20, the only question is whether it'll be Thelen Kirkland or Kirkland Thelen.

"So why did they publish a memo? It sounds like they wanted this news to be leaked. It's not even news, it's just a hope or a desire or a fantasy..."

To keep people internally informed, is that so wrong??

"Yep, 8:20, the only question is whether it'll be Thelen Kirkland or Kirkland Thelen. "

It would be Kirkland Thelen, of course (or maybe Kirkland Ellis Thelen). Point is, Thelen benefits from Kirkland's name and "prestige" and clientele (And associates benefit from the better pay!), and Kirkland benefit from added talented attorneys.

Fair deal.

"So why did they publish a memo? It sounds like they wanted this news to be leaked. It's not even news, it's just a hope or a desire or a fantasy..."

To keep people internally informed, is that so wrong??"

I think that law firms generally don't want associates to be informed about merger plans until the last possible moment. I do think, however, that law firm management knows that if they publish a memo with a vague statement about the firm looking for yet another merger partner, the intention of firm management is to get that memo leaked to the public. At this point everyone knows that a memo like that is going straight to the legal gossip mill, including ATL. So the question has to be why Thelen management wants everyone to know that they are looking to merge again.

I suspect that the answer has nothing to do with informing associates or even finding a merger partner. Seems to me that if you want a merger partner, you don't go publishing a memo that smacks of desperation, knowing that it's going to be plastered up and down the street.

To 9:02pm

Well then perhaps there are close to finalizing something, if your points are your valid.

Sullivan Cromwell Thelen here we come!!!!!!

it's probably b/c thelen is a lot more involved in merger talks with certain firms than they're letting on...

the firm probably understands it has an obligation to its associates, partners, etc to feed them some info b/c theyre going to find out sooner or later through gossip mills like ATL one way or another..this way, they get to control the information being leaked

i don't think that's a wrong reason..i have a few friends who work at thelen and they say that the firm management has been making a good effort to keep everyone in the loop with management decisions (or as much as possible, at least)

9:04, I'm just saying that if a firm's management publishes a memo, they know that it's going to be hitting ATL and all the other sites in about 30 seconds after it's sent around internally. Maybe Thelen is a firm that really cares about keeping the associates informed, even if it means that there will be leaks. Doesn't sound too likely to me, though.

Well maybe you are right...maybe in a week or two we get a merger announcement.

What about Thelen - Kaye Scholer?

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST - watch for this one: PINSENT MASONS THELEN.

Pinsent Masons is a large British firm with whom Thelen used to have a joint venture as both are tops globally in construction law. Pinsent Masons had PPP of about $920K as reported in May of 2007. Meanwhile Thelen is currently in the mid-800's. Also, the British firm transferred itself into an LLP in March of 2008 according to its website.

This merger is much more likely than one with Gibson, Quinn , Sullivan, etc. which have no chance of ever happening. The most important stat to look at when considering a prospective merger partner is PPP and If you're a partner at Quinn making $3M per year (or Sullivan making $3M or Gibson making $2M) why would you merge with a firm with PPP of $800K thereby causing massive dilution particularly if the firm which averages $800K in profits is much larger than you are?

Pinsent has the European practice Thelen has wanted for so long and Thelen has the US practice Pinsent could definitely use. No other firm will come in the area of Construction law once this merger occurs.

Its official -- Fried Thelen Franks.

Powerhouse.

What's the likelihood that a merger will even happen?

Maybe Thelen will just stay Thelen.

Some of you just don't get it.

Why would a top firm want Thelen?

It's like this: A top firm ACQUIRES (not merges with) Thelen. Now "Thelen" uses the new top firm's billing rates, and "Thelen" benefits from the name brand of the top firm.

"Thelen," now just an arm of a top firm, does ridiculously well and helps top firm increase their own absurdly high PPP's while "Thelen" partners do very well too. Makes perfect sense...

You Thelen people are fucking drunk if you think that a good firm like Gibson or Kirkland would want anything to do with you.

The main thing that your firm is strong in, construction litigation, is a low-margin business that's destined for boutique firm status, much like labor & employment has become (see, e.g., Littler and Jackson Lewis). None of those firms, which are in the process of shedding low margin work, would want to take on another huge group of it. Keep in mind that the lower margin is reflected in the abysmal Thelen PPP numbers.

Those of you who think Quinn or Boies are going to pick you up are even more insane. First, Quinn has NEVER had any transactional work, and Boies dumped its small corporate practice a while back. I doubt either of them are interested in the M&A powerhouse that is Thelen.

What's left, then? Some second-rate IP litigators in Silicon Valley, a bunch of less-profitable construction litigators across the country, and some insurance defense. Sounds like exactly what a bunch of $2+ million PPP firms want!

Oh, for what its worth, I work at one of the firms that's been floated in this thread, I'd probably start looking to lateral in disgust if we merged with Thelen; I've been co-counsel and opposing counsel to them, and have nothing but contempt for their lawyers' abilities.

3:42 is the funniest post all week.
This is the reason why lawyers should never be businessmen. You think raising billing rates is as easy as slapping some new lipstick on a pig?

"So why did they publish a memo? It sounds like they wanted this news to be leaked. It's not even news, it's just a hope or a desire or a fantasy..."

... to stem the tide of associate & partner departures in the short term while they continue to explore their options.

Holland & Knight? Similar PPP, better national name, but could use the increased strength in NY, haven't merged in a few years, etc.

Not sure how HK's lobbying in DC would match up with Thelen's DC practice...

The comment above about Mayer Brown is ridiculous.

The Thelen management would probably be seriously injured by the stampede of partners at MB running out the front door of MB. MB are also being sued for over $8bn out of Refco (and one of their partners is facing jail time over Refco). Who would want to expose their business to US$8bn in uninsured law suits?

Bingham

Bingham

Bingham

Thats interesting. Bingham has about 150 attorneys in NY, so does (did) Thelen. Their offices are also located a block away...

Bingham & Thelen or Thelen & Bingham.

That merger suggestion probably makes the most sense so far (aside from merging with a European firm).

Both firms seem to have office situated in similar locations (NY, LA, SF, Hartford). Both firms are also known to have generally a friendly working culture/environment. This seems to work for both firms.

3:42 a.m., I can't tell whether you're a comedian who needs to work on his/her delivery, or whether you're dead serious and totally out of your mind. Clients push back against higher billing rates. They would not agree to pay higher rates to the same lawyers just because they took on a new name.

100th!!

Nixon?

I have heard that Katten Muchin may be involved. Makes sense, overlapping interests and international exposure for Katten.

I have heard that Katten Muchin may be involved. Makes sense, overlapping interests and international exposure for Katten.

Similar enough PPP, Katten obviously the superior firm

If people are leaving your firm for Hitler Mengele errrr Littler Mendelsohn, you have serious problems.

I am an associate in Thelen's San Francisco office and the Office of the Chair just sent out a second memo with more information on the proposed merger. It turns out that the merger isn't really a merger-the firm is bringing in a new executive team to replace the Office of the Chair. The new team is going to be chaired by a fellow named Tower Snow. The memo states that the firm will be acquiring leasehold interests in office space throughout the country while the real estate market is collapsing and then create derivative securities on the future appreciation in the leases and issue the securities to associates in lieu of a cash salary. Thus, there will be no further layoffs.

Thelen expects the securities to be profitable by Q1 2009.

3:11, It's been way too long since I've heard a good Brobeck reference.

Associates paid in derivative securities? Are they really going to go for that? I like my cold hard cash.

I'm another one who's worked on a case where Thelen's California IP folks are involved -- and they're bad. Bad bad bad. No idea why their major Korean client hasn't fired them in favor of a real firm.

Actually, Thelen's IP department is really good. So are their Construction and Real Estate departments.

1:16/1:17 here. Spoke with a partner here in Chicago. Thelen is not the firm Katten is aquiring. Different firm in trouble. Actually pretty exciting!

Okay, back to reality for the Thelen folks who want to be rescued by a high end firm. Realistically, I could see Thelen hooking up with someone who needs a larger NY office and wants to get more into energy, construction and project finance. Maybe a Squire Sanders?

Thelen is likely to go the way of Coudert or Brobeck b/c no merger is going to save them. They have tried it twice in the last 7-9 years. First, they tried mergering with Reid and Priest - it blew up as the mainly NY centered Reid and Priest partners bailed. Then they tried it with Brown Raysman which isn't working out so well.

What firm self respecting firm would want to connect themsleves with that sinking ship. Instead, they would rather cherry pick the lucrative parnters out of the tbetter practices out of the firm and let the rest sink.

Sonnenschein merger?

http://abajournal.com/news/sonnenscheins_ambitious_growth_plans_call_for_2_mergers

http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?ap=1&id=133723

Thelen will be fine with or without the merger. I am sure business is slow and they have had better years, but a lot of firms are slow these days.

The economy needs to pick up and law firms will do better. As for a merger, it can only help Thelen, not hurt it. Definitely not a case of Coudert or Brobeck.

"I have heard that Katten Muchin may be involved. Makes sense, overlapping interests and international exposure for Katten.

Similar enough PPP, Katten obviously the superior firm"

Katten would be AWESOME! I would love for them to acquire Thelen. That way they could use their salary structure for Thelen associates and abolish the Thelen two-track, ranges at each level salary system!!!!!

Please no Sonnenschein! They are cheap and don't help out Thelen!

We need a better firm with better pay and better PPP's to acquire Thelen, that is to poach the offices they want (SF, SV, DC) and generally dispose of the others (NYC, LA), but of course they could pluck people from there and move them other offices of the "new" firm

Bingham + Thelen = bigger bingham.

bingham doesn't merge. it absorbs and feeds

bingham can't drop mccutchen from the name. its the only thing mccutchen has left

Bingham Thelen has a nice ring to it. That's a match made in heaven.

"Okay, back to reality for the Thelen folks who want to be rescued by a high end firm. "

As a Thelen asssociate I can honestly say we don't want anything to do with your high end firms. I'll take lower billables any day over your lock step bonuses.

And for those that question our IP litigators...seriously?!? Have you looked in the mirror recently?

Given all of the culture clash issues with the Wilmer Cutler/Hale and Dorr merger, no way is WilmerHale merging again any time soon.

"As a Thelen asssociate I can honestly say we don't want anything to do with your high end firms. I'll take lower billables any day over your lock step bonuses."

As a fellow Thelen associate, I disagree. Our pay sucks because our billing rates are low. If we get with a high end firm, doesn't mean our billables will go up, but billing rates will. Bill the same hours, make more money. Sounds good to me.

Besides, you said lockstep bonuses...what about LOCKSTEP SALARY??? It's ridiculous that there are not only 2 payscales, but also ranges in each payscale. Those scales and ranges are all about underpaying associates and you know it.

Lockstep is for union jobs. Only complainers are under performers that think they could make more elsewhere because they're not at the top of the range. If there is a range, ask to be moved to the top or for an explanation of a) why you're not there and b) how to get there. Take some ownership.

"Lockstep is for union jobs. Only complainers are under performers that think they could make more elsewhere because they're not at the top of the range. If there is a range, ask to be moved to the top or for an explanation of a) why you're not there and b) how to get there. Take some ownership."

Tell that to associates at Wachtell, Cravath, Weil, DPW, Skadden, Sullivan, Simpson, and dozens of other vault.com top 100 firms. Idiot.

Thelen is a sinking ship.
I am glad I left there.

I can't believe you over paid whiners bitching about under market pay and bonuses. Ever stop to think that you are under paid for a reason. This is a free market. If you believe you are not being paid what you deserve go somewhere that truly values your service.

Oh you are still here. That's what I thought.

Peter Brown from Brown Raysman left the firm. Many of their money making partners did as well. The firm might as well shut down. There's little hope left. If they do merge again maybe the Thelen bitches will start doing some and stop thinking they own over the Brown folks.

Start doing some work*
excuse me

Higher PPPs, higher salaries, etc. etc. ad nauseum. And where are the clients who are going to continue to pay rates that are already outlandishly high? The whole system is based on a practice premise that no longer exists - a stable of significant clients with long-standing loyalty to a single firm, which can then staff cases with a range of seniority levels, with the client understanding that the inexperienced junior associate for which it is paying is really in training for a case management future with that same client. Pillsbury/Chevron. Thelen/Bechtel. Brobeck/B of A. With that dynamic now entirely dead, we're now dealing with the end result - only profits matter, culture and quality come in distant seconds, and who cares anyway about my current firm when a better deal is waiting around the corner? This has bid up the price of legal services, leading to fewer clients being able to pay the "elite firm" fees. Yet the "elite firms" are still trying to extract these high fees from this declining pool. The gig's up, folks. The world is not going to pay our fat fees anymore. Instability at so many firms is merely this reality playing out in very slow motion. Carp now about your "low" salary - in a few years, you'll have no salary, because the world won't be able to afford you or your firm.

Thelen Marrin Johnson & Bridges ... dead and buried by year-end.

Twice-married and twice-divorced, dying and diseased widow seeking gentleman caller. Would you answer her personal?

Recall, the very existence of TMJB was due to Bechtel as its biggest client. Now both Bechtel (and Calpine) are going to Orrick with the Weitzel team.

The only decent practice left at Thelen is construction litigation (and what elite firm wants THAT?), everything else is shit. Yes folks, Thelen once had a thriving...Y2K practice!...until January 1, 2000! Ha ha ha ha ha

For real, 9:46? Sucks for Thelen. Good for the Big O.

So, #105, you're saying that Thelen is going to become and REIT and leave the practice of law to the pros?

"I am an associate in Thelen's San Francisco office and the Office of the Chair just sent out a second memo with more information on the proposed merger. It turns out that the merger isn't really a merger-the firm is bringing in a new executive team to replace the Office of the Chair. The new team is going to be chaired by a fellow named Tower Snow. The memo states that the firm will be acquiring leasehold interests in office space throughout the country while the real estate market is collapsing and then create derivative securities on the future appreciation in the leases and issue the securities to associates in lieu of a cash salary. Thus, there will be no further layoffs.

Thelen expects the securities to be profitable by Q1 2009."

Oh, damn, I got PW3D! Well done, #105.

-11:42

sad case leaving behind anger for new hires, and those left behind....loved the story and pr about skadden and the macho litigation team recently and the letting go of a senior attorney...internal politics and changes necessary to keep up...Thelen seems to have some great attorneys in NYC with very strong work experience..unfortunate about the jumps taking place, however, isn't it the same all over during transitions...possibly the new and the old can bring together a new dawning for the firm making a stronger presentation and build new teams from new hires....it does not take years of experience to bring in new blood who are "biting at the bit" to make a place for themself...it seems like internal training needs to step up along with new business development teams, since most of the big NYC firms have been hiring in PR staff striding over major turnovers for most of the last five years..

One of Thelen's biggest problems is Steve O'Neil's leadership style which is fueled by his uber ego-centric view of the world. Not only does he want to rule the world, ("It's good to be king" as he once said) he is disliked by the vast majority of those who work there. Everyone's wondering why he's at the helm...is it because no one else wanted the job? If they do merge, the first job should be to get rid of him.

A former assciate who's glad to be free of Thelen's sickness

"Recall, the very existence of TMJB was due to Bechtel as its biggest client. Now both Bechtel (and Calpine) are going to Orrick with the Weitzel team."

Bechtel's construction work isn't going anywhere, because anywhere else would be a step down. And to reduce Thelen's existence just to Bechtel only reflects ignorance about the breadth of Thelen's client base.

Thelen has been a great place to work, and the core TMJB lawyers (in the SF office in particular) are fundamentally decent, bright, and dedicated lawyers. The Weitzel group's departure is a significant blow, to be sure. But it's not an unsurvivable one.

All the lawyers who have left Thelen would make a more pretigious firm / better merger partner than all those who are still left at Thelen.

Don't be a hater!!!

Thelen is losing money because all of their partners/associates are petty little whiners who spend so much of their time down on their knees measuring the size of their offices. Whenever a new 3rd year comes in, the pecking order shifts and everyone moves offices. Each attorney bickers for months and months instead of actually BILLING TIME.

This firm is a waste and anyone with a law degree would do well to go work somewhere else.

You can tell a lot about what a firm is really like by the way it treats people the working there who aren't lawyers. I'm not a lawyer, and I had the misfortune of working at Thelen at the supervisory level. Save for a few islands of sanity, the place is a snake pit.

Watching Thelen destroy itself is the most enjoyment I've had in a long time.