Now Is the Summer of Their Discontent: Bad Times for Summer Associates?
It’s hard to feel sorry for summer associates at large law firms. They get paid over $3,000 a week to sample the best restaurants in their respective cities, to watch blockbuster movies before they hit theaters, and to generally just have a good time.
We’ve seen anecdotal evidence that it’s “business as usual” at many top law firms, the economic downturn notwithstanding. For example, last week, while hanging out with some summer associates here in DC, one SA told us that she’s paid for her own lunch just once the entire summer.
Last month, while having dinner at Gramercy Tavern in New York, we bumped into a large summer associate party from our former firm. They seemed to be living it up — and had the wine bottles to prove it.
We received a few responses to yesterday’s request for tips about interesting or unusual summer associate events. Sidley Austin in L.A. is renting out the Staples Center for a Summers v. Associates basketball game. Last month, Bryan Cave took its summers to a different sort of court — the U.S. Supreme Court — where they got to meet with and ask questions of a Supreme Court justice (an annual tradition). This year’s host was Justice Clarence Thomas. If you’re interested, we’ve posted a brief write-up of the visit after the jump.
That’s on the plus side of the ledger. We’ve also encountered anecdotal evidence that things have changed at some summer programs — and not for the better. For example, we’ve heard a rumor that summers in the Chicago office of a major national firm were told, early in the program, that there were only enough offers for two-thirds of them. It seems implausible, and right now it’s unconfirmed; if you can confirm, please email us.
And we heard this, from a tipster who refused to reveal his employer’s name because he’s already fearful about getting no-offered:
While much of your coverage of summer associate programs at Vault firms focuses on the glamor of wining and dining, my experiences and those of my law school classmates at other firms this summer has been one of tightened budgets in a recession. Some examples:most days I’m paying for lunch out of my own pocket and bringing it back to my desk to work on assignments; a general fear among about whether offers will even be available for summers; no schwag to speak of. I’m curious if this is par for the course in the current economic climate.
Summer associates: What’s the reality of the SA experience for you? Is it as fabulous as you expected, or has it been a bit of a letdown? Are you worried about getting a permanent offer?
Please share your experience, in this open thread. We encourage you to identify firms by name where possible, so we can follow up if necessary. Thanks.
A description of the Bryan Cave summer associates’ trip to the Supreme Court:
[The visit] took place on June 23. The summers toured the Court and his chambers, and then in true Clarence Thomas fashion, he only spoke for ten minutes. However, he allowed almost an hour and a half of questioning. From what I hear, he was very candid when answering questions. He even signed books for all of the attendees.




Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
QUINN EMANUEL TO SWITZERLAND
hey wait a SECOND....did you say summers actually have to work this summer?
mcguirewoods also met with clarence and he took TWO hours of q&a
kids at my middle school met with clarence thomas all the time. it was no big deal.
I wonder if Thomas chewed out the Yalies in the class.
I'm much more nervous about my own situation than I would be if I were one of our summers. I think we over-hired, but word is that they'll definitely all get offers, provided they don't mess it up.
people complain every summer
...waaah, my friend at firm X got a messenger bag, and 2 more dinners... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
get over it
Well it's old news, but Gibbons in Newark canceled its summer program altogether.
Thomas is a fantastic listener, which is why he hails questions and pays attention to oral argument rather than chattering and showing off. The fact that he'd speak for 10 minutes to a bunch for 2Ls preening for their next big step, then entertain their questions for a full 90 minutes, speaks volumes about his character.
Guys in my high school at lunch during the summer all the time. It was no big deal.
So let me get this straight: Summers are concerned that 1) they have to pay for lunch on their own dime and eat it at their desk; 2) are fearful of getting fired due to insufficient work; and 3) have not been given ridiculous, over-the-top loot?
In other words, they are living the life of an associate. Boohoo.
Why are people so impressed with food?
I'm being serious. Food is not expensive and it's really bad for you in many ways. It's not expensive, especially compared to what you paid for your law school education and room/board. It's bad for you because it makes you fat for one thing.
I just don't understand it.
P.S. It also gives you bad gas which offends your office mate, so please do not eat huge lunches. Or at least take a dump right after. I'm glad I got this off my chest.
That Thomas meets with summers speaks volumes about his (lack of) intelligence. We already knew about his character.
Why are people so impressed with food?
I'm being serious. Food is not expensive and it's really bad for you in many ways. It's not expensive, especially compared to what you paid for your law school education and room/board. It's bad for you because it makes you fat for one thing.
I just don't understand it.
P.S. It also gives you bad gas which offends your office mate, so please do not eat huge lunches. Or at least take a dump right after. I'm glad I got this off my chest.
My office mate is Fuller, and at the lunches he drinks way too much pepsi.
Yay! We can post comments again. (It was down for a while.)
NYC V100 firm--lunch on average 4 days per week with very soft $60 pp cap. They added a number of events to calendar. Once a week cocktails with bottle service at $450 per. Spending money like the economy is booming. Unofficial word is that all summers are getting offers.
Will they raise the market rate to 190k, or is that wishful thinking? WOW. I mean, wow. Chicago has been at 160k for a while, so it's not absurd to raise it that high.
NY to 190 = joke.
Be grateful you have a job.
4:27---"Dream a little dream for me."
"[S]ummers in the Chicago office of a major national firm were told, early in the program, that there were only enough offers for two-thirds of them."
What firm?
Wow, some TTT law student at a TTT firm in ShiTTTago isn't getting his lunch paid for, this must portend doom for all.
Atlanta to $35k!
raising now would really separate the wheat from the chaff. if i was a v10 i'd do it.
@4:20 - you have an office mate? That's TTT.
- Summer Associate w/ own office
4:35--only reason you have your own office is because your firm has excess space after it made its stealth layoffs.
At Cravath, the best law firm in the country, you don't get your own office until your second or third year as a full-time associate.
3:38--Gibbons hasn't had a summer program since 2003.
Are we talking NY? I don't know anyone in DC who shares offices, even as summer associates, unless it's a real small-time operation.
Blah, blah, blah. Welcome to the real world, kiddies. It sucks. Better save up some of that $3k/week. I would advise dropping your coke habits until things firm up a bit.
Could Jenner be that Chicago firm? I know they laid off approx. 37 attorneys earlier this year. Mostly women. I know one of the partners, heard it from her.
4:35 in theory i agree. but v10 firms will get the top students schools anyway just beacuase of who they are. now if a v15-25 would raise then it may get interesting. would top "talent" desert the top names and go for the money? even if yes, this would not even last a day as top firms would match right away. so i guess it would not really happen. a firm such as quinn can afford to always be on top in comp, however, they already only have top talent.
4:42 - extreme leverage got you down?
@4:42 - I suppose you don't figure out how to use the word "you're" until that level either.
@4:45(2) - The way the statement is phrased makes me believe it is a firm not based in Chicago. Just a hunch, though. I can also say it is definitely not Jenner.
@4:42 - I suppose you don't figure out how to use the word "you're" until that level either.
@4:45(2) - The way the statement is phrased makes me believe it is a firm not based in Chicago. Just a hunch, though.
Sounds like 4:20 got a Cleveland Steamer after lunch.
4:42,
Um, Cravath is clearly second to Wachtell and tied with S&C and DPW. Plus, you are only going have a job for 2-3 years at most top NYC firms, so essentially you are saying that you will share an office for your entire stint at the firm. That would cause me to consider other firms.
4:54 well said
"no schwag to speak of"
I wouldn't expect schwag unless you're summering at a firm that's a complete TTT...the big boys should be hooking you up with the chronic for sure.
@4:49 - look again; 4:42 used "your" correctly.
His office mate makes sure to proofread all of his ATL posts.
@ 4:49 -- At what level do you learn to read correctly? 4:42 used the correct form of "your" both times.
guys in my high sch- zzzzzz.
4:56 - right on right on.
@ 4:54....Cravath is "tied with" S&C and DPW? I hope you don't seriously believe this.
Oh, and the fact that you have to share an office for 2 years at Cravath would cause you to "consider other firms"? I see...so (if you are a current law student, as I suspect) when you get an interview/callback from Cravath you will turn them down?
Who cares about Cravath?
Unless they pay a bigger bonus like Wachtell, why would i want to bill 2600 hours there (minimum) when I could work at another top firm and bill 1900-2000 and make the same money?
If you go there for the "prestige" you suck at life.
5:05, I'm an attorney and did turn Cravath down, although for unrelated reasons.
I've shared an office as a summer. It was the most painful experience of my life. Three years of that would cause me to jump out the window. Believe it or not, in the real world, Cravath is not the end all and be all of firms. There are multiple firms that will offer you the same prestige and exit opportunities, namely S&C and DPW (in fact, DPW rejected me, but Cravath did not). If I have the choice between two equal firms and one of them will not stick me in an 10x10 box with a socially incompetent a-hole, I'm choosing that one.
4:35 it isn't about V10... it is about which firms have he best economic situation... I'd be more likely to call a PPP10 on this than a V10 --- they aren't quite the same...
PPP Top 15
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz New York, NY
Cravath, Swaine & Moore New York, NY
Sullivan & Cromwell New York, NY
Davis Polk & Wardwell New York, NY
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP New York, NY
Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton New York, NY
Covington & Burling Washington, DC
Latham & Watkins Los Angeles, CA
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
Kirkland & Ellis Chicago, IL
Shearman & Sterling
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
Williams & Connolly LLP
Debevoise & Plimpton
PPP t15 92005-06)
Wachtell - $3.79m (+8.3%)
Cravath - $2.600m (+17.9%)
Cadwalader - $2.545m (+20.6%) / $2.025m
Paul Weiss - $2.475m (+14.8%)
Sullivan - $2.410m (+2.6%)
Simpson - $2.370m (+1.7%)
Cahill - $2.285m (-6.9%) / $2.255m
Kirkland - $2.120m (+7.3%) / $1.160m
Milbank - $2.020m (+6.3%) / $1.935m
Davis - $2.000m (-0.2%)
Cleary - $1.960m (+14.3%)
Quinn - $1.96m (+1%)
Skadden - $1.910m (+10.1%)
Schulte - $1.900m (+4.7%) / $1.885m
Weil - $1.830m (+7.6%) / $1.535m
Willkie - $1.790m (+9.1%)
Debevoise - $1.675m (+10.9%)
Gibson - $1.635m (+7.9%)
The newer PPP may be a bit different, but this list didn't have any windfalls (see RIM and Wiley Rien)
BUT IT'S CRAVATH! And I LOVE THEM, and they LOVE ME, and this office mate thing is only TEMPORARY! I'm going to be here FOREVER!
- nutty
5:15 what the hells with the chart from 05. in case you did not notice we are in 08
oh you crazy cooks. "my firm is tied with your firm if you look at profits per partner divided by average associate hours billed multiplied by the number of free lunches you get as a summer, but subtracting .5 for sharing an office for 1.5 years."
The firm I summered at in Las Vegas only took us out twice the entire summer (there were only two of us)...every day we paid for lunch out of our own pocket.
On those occassions we went to lunch with the partners, one would make fun of us if we spent more than $5 of our OWN dollars.
Needless to say the firm broke up and sold their building later that year and I wouldn't have taken an offer from them if I was unemployed.
Be thankful youre stealling the $3G a week you are you little shits.
@ 5:26 ... I think some people are looking at valid points of comparison. If your time at a firm is short-lived, then things like in-house options and reputation within the legal community are pretty important. I agree, though. If I'm not making partner, who cares about PPP, etc., except to the extent it is a proxy for something I do care about and cannot otherwise measure? Based on the important things, SCis definitely in the same league as CSW.
@ 5:26 ... I think some people are looking at valid points of comparison. If your time at a firm is short-lived, then things like in-house options and reputation within the legal community are pretty important. I agree, though. If I'm not making partner, who cares about PPP, etc., except to the extent it is a proxy for something I do care about and cannot otherwise measure? Based on the important things, SCis definitely in the same league as CSM.
Um, it's SWAG, not "schwag"
Stuff We All Get - except you're not getting it, except for that fat paycheck you don't earn.
Schwag is the proper term for bunk weed.
So what is the Chicago firm?
Jenner seems like a good guess. Big enough class for it to actually happen. Not great on the economics.
What about Mayer? Have they gotten their finances under control from all of the partner de-equitizations and associate layoffs?
Darkhorse in Sidley? They have expensive office space coming online in the near future. Also, they have never managed to bank the PPP of Kirkland even though they try and match them up and down on the perks and such.
And of course there is Sonnenschein. After all of their issues I'm surprised they haven't just gone under yet.
I'd say Sonnenschein or Jenner...
I bet almost everyone complaining about sharing offices is a law student. It's actually nice sharing an office your first year. Generally speaking, you don't know what the hell is going on or how to be a lawyer, so you can bounce ideas back and forth. And, in crappy economies, you have someone to shoot the sh*t with.
AND, once you actually start working, you stop caring about vault ranking and start caring about how much your bonus will be compared to the hours you bill, and how much the partners make should you decide to stay. So yes, PPP and RPP are the two most important numbers.
5:45, what "expensive office space" does Sidley (Chi) having "coming on line"? (Kirkland and Jenner are moving into newly built buildings, but Sidley made its move a few years ago.)
1) There is a difference between schwag ($25 an eighth in Washington Sq. Park) and swag (monogrammed firm totebags and fleece blankets with the firm logo).
2) It's comical all these associates who got the royal treatment when they were summers and now either bitch about summers or tell summers to get over it. You bring the profession down by your negative attitude. The summer for many is as good as it gets. 2Ls deserve that opportunity. It's not uncommon for other industries, just look at MBA's over their summers. The perks and pay vary. But the gravy train is an important opportunity for both sides to sniff around for other attributes which do not appear on a transcript/resume and might come in handy for client relations in the future.
3) And those who aren't at the top, stop bitching about your summer or your firm. Maybe you went to a shitty school or maybe you did poorly. Start working. If you're as smart as you think you are, you'll end up at a good place. If you're not you won't, but jealousy is downright unbecoming.
4) For anyone who thinks that the V10 firms will struggle do not understand the world of modern finance. Most of these firms have not overexpanded, have the top clients, and boast longevity for a reason. The American economy has business cycles, but within that valleys, there's plenty of acquisitions to be had. Oh yeah, and litigation does continue. Oh right, and there's that international scene.
Yeah, high PPP's are a sure sign of a solid firm. Just ask all those former CWT associates...
What matters in a rocky (to put it lightly) economy is whether a firm is conservative with its finances (i.e., whether it borrows very much to stay afloat until billings are paid); a solid firm should borrow next to nothing to meet its ongoing/fixed overhead expenses (e.g., associate salaries and benefits).
There's also something to be said for a firm's "culture." Plenty of folks still remember Shearman's big lay-offs, which still casts a shadow over an otherwise top flight firm.
Guys in my high school used to work at Wachtell. It was no big deal.
wow, 5:49, obviously you never met an office mate who is a raging d-bag and unabashedly interrupts every single person thats talking every 5 seconds (including partners) and tells an assigning attorney to give him 10 extra minutes because he's watching streaming video.
I may not know much about "being a lawyer," but I know you're an ass clown for overgeneralizing spoiled law students when there are truly some assbags out there. You suck, and if you want someone to shoot the sh*t with, I'll give you his number.
Um, CWT did take a hit and had to fire some people, but they'll be just fine and they'll remain very profitable in the future. Don't think just because a firm fires 30 something people that it's all of the sudden not a solid firm. That's just ignorant.
Interesting to compare the top firms with the summer associates in my firm. Summer here means answering the phones, filing docs, and making the coffee -- and there's absolutely no chance of an offer at the end.
My guest would be Skadden-Chi? They WAY oversubscribed this summer.
I vote for 6:12(2). What were they thinking?
(Brutal place to actually end up as an associate, anyway...)
Skadden Chicago?
Interesting call. Kind of surprising.
My firm met with Justice Thomas too. It was weird. One of the female summer associates was drinking some soda, and at one point while he was taking us through how the Court deliberates, he paused, motioned to this woman's coke and asked her if there was a pubic hair on it? How strange is that? Anybody have any idea what that was about?
It is skadden-chicago. Heard from a current SA in that office that 1/3 wouldn't be given offers.
You have to share an office at Venable in DC. I think until your third year.
Is it DLA-Chicago? I've heard for a long time that they were going to be chucking some bodies. No offering summers is usually a last resort though.
Just because a student isn't a SA at a top law firm does not mean that they went to a "shitty school" or did poorly. I am attending a top 50 law school and am in the top 10% of my class and I am still working for legal services because I couldn't find a summer associate job at a top firm. Yes, I am jealous of the jobs my classmates got. But, on the other hand, I do feel like I am gaining more valuable experience at my current position and in the long run I know I will be thankful for the opportunities I am given, even if I am given no swag.
umm top 50 law school is shitty.
If you aren't T14 you don't stand a chance really.
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett in London, we got to attend the US ambassador's 4th of July party. I heard pretty much everybody gets an offer.
it's definitely skadden chicago -- they usually hire around 25-30 summers, this year they have close to 50. the firm is moving to new digs and plans to "expand," but not nearly enough to take on 50 new associates. the entire office consists of 200 lawyers.
but, apparently all of the chicago summer class is being "encouraged" to spend a few weeks at another skadden office, tending to imply that those that don't get chicago offers may nevertheless get offers from other skadden offices.
Woa, this is big news about Skadden Chicago. There should for sure be a post on this. People with information - email Lat!
This is clearly not true....I'm in Chicago and have not heard any rumor like this. If it were true everyone would be talking about it.
7:25 - are you in a biglaw city? or some random t50 fly over state school? both of the t50 in my city (boston) place roughly 30% of its class in biglaw, the only 2nd tier is in the 10% range depending on the economy.
I doubt the tipster works for an Amlaw or Vault top 30 firm. And isn't that all people on ATL care about anyway?
It is NOT Skadden Chicago. The summers here have been told all along that they will get offers. We have plenty of work to go around. They have been encouraged to spend a couple of weeks at other offices but that's only because of our current space limitations. We're taking on more space at the new building to accommodate a larger class.
Cravath owns S&C. S&C's offices in NYC blow, real bad. The Death Star is the pinnacle of prestige.
Guys in my high school always gave away schwag. It was no big deal.
I agree that S&C and DPW are in the same league as cravath - and it seems ridiculous (and sort of frivilous) to attempt to claim otherwise. But, there does seem to be a consistent perception that cravath is a marginally superior firm, and perhaps there is something to that. Certainly, S&C and others reinforce that impression when they constantly attempt to claim to be cravath's peer - it has the air of an inferiority complex. But really, the 3 of them are all extraordinary firms at the top of the heap, and you are splitting hairs at that point.
It also doesn't account for practice groups. People routinely say that Wachtell is superior to cravath. Superior at what? M&A - probably, marginally. Compensation? Yes. But everything else? Not necessarily. Similarly, S&C is also arguably better at M&A (or at least equal) than cravath, but there are probably things cravath is better at than S&C (including training and opportunities for substantive experience early in your career).
This fall I will be a 1L at a T10 school, can I even get a position as a summer with a respectable firm in 2009?
9:05 - no, by then no one will be hiring. we will be back to trading beads for corn and living in caves.
SA at Magic Circle firm.
we've been told (unofficially) that we all get offers unless we do anything stupid or produce abominations of work product. makes sense in that the firm is doing extremely well (not dependent on the Bush economy and all).
I don't know about it being Jenner. The firm has been going through serious chop, but they only hired 40 summers this year, which was way down from 2007 (when they offered everyone).
I would bet Sonnenschein.
9:05 - is either a) troll or b) an AA admit, no one at a t10 school would be stupid enough to think they won't have a SA, 2nd and 3rd tier kids on the other hand...
9:05 - 1L hiring as summer associate unless you are an IP geek is f'ing gone. Total waste of money, and the most obvious cut I can think of because it offends no one and saves at least $50K between salary and wasted attorney time dedicated to the 1L.
Now, if you have serious hard science, you probably could have gotten a job *this* summer as a 1L.
Summer at a NYC IP boutique. We were told that we all have offers unless we "do something that ends up on AboveTheLaw" (no joke).
Everyone is really busy (both associates and summers) and there is no noticeable decline in spending money on the summers. I have bought my own lunch three times all summer. I've stayed late a few nights, but most of the time I've had no trouble attending the social events, as well as the after-parties.
Addendum to 9:14 - Sonnenschein, despite all of the bad press and the offer recisions, is still apparently "demanding" resume cutoffs for non-T14's like they are a V20 firm.
Either there is truth to that story that White & Case is going to merge with them, or Sonnenschein is being seriously delusional.
9:25 - what do you mean by resume cutoff?
Smart Schwag: Harnessing The Power Of Promotional Items
by Barak Kassar, Wednesday, Nov 9, 2005 8:05 AM ET
Schwag. It sounds Yiddish. The word actually traces back to 14th century Norwegian, but schwag's potential for beauty, lyricism and the power to move people is as forgotten as the Yiddish language's potential for the very same. Some of the most poignant and funny poems, novels and jokes were once written in Yiddish. Today the language is reduced to tired one-liners--like "I'm so verklempt."
Same with schwag. Despite some mesmerizing moments in promotional products "advertising," most schwag (think pen with logo) is shlekht (that actually is Yiddish, and it means crap). Unlike Yiddish, schwag (or swag, which sounds British) has the power to be understood universally. So, why does a type of advertising on which corporations spend close to $17.5 billion a year (according to the Promotional Products Association International--that's more than one-third of what's spent on TV) get such short creative shrift?
Have a friend at Kirkland in Chicago who works with Skadden a lot, knows people over there etc. and he has heard they over extended themselves and could very well only offer 2/3 of the summers positions.
Could someone please put this to rest once and for all, bidding is coming up...
SHOULD I NOT BID ON SKADDEN CHICAGO??!!?!?
and if not, what good is Skadden in general? this is not v5 behavior.
9.46, Skadden is a hole and not at all like its summer program (which is true for ALL firms but not to the scale at Skadden, with only CWT coming close).
I worked at 3 firms over 2 summers, and ultimately chose skadden. I had my skadden pen, my Skadden M&Ms and went into my 3L hooked on the Skadden Kool-Aid.
Within 6 months I knew I hated it, but already it had taken 750 hours of my life that billng year (started in October but talking about the new year billing) so stuck it out for bonus and then jumped to a different v10 firm. Better lifestyle, better partners, better time. Loving what I am doing and I have been here several years.
Anyway, Skadden amazed me with how different it was and being a part of this firms summer committee has made it clear just how much they chose to hide. If you have another choice in the top v15, go with it.
Cravath does not have these problems because they are Cravath.
Cravath is the Chuck Norris of law firms.
Skadden Chicago is a good place with good people. The NY nastiness does not dominate in Chicago at all. I recommend taking a close look at the office -- while the summer program can mask what the work is really like, it can't cover up what the people are like. And, in general, they're a likable bunch (as far as big firm lawyers go, anyway).
10.22, this is 10.06. I should have noted I was speaking about the NY office. Heard chi not AS bad, but a) still not great and b) you are still associated with partners and knobs in NY.
bUT YOUR POINT IS STILL VALID, i JUST THINK THAT Skadden would still come out bad but I am, as my post made clear, biased as I had a crap time. First and last time I have ever cried at the place I work.
Skadden is good if that is the only $160k job you can get. However, if you can go any place else (in Chicago or elsewhere) that is still on the $160k pay scale do it.
There is a reason that places like Skadden have reputation for giving every HLS/SLS/YLS person with a pulse an offer. They burn through associates like few others can (save maybe Wachtell but there you get it made up with the $$$).
Mofo took all of its summer associates along with top brass and even some clients to Napa Valley for 4 days. Lots of golf, wine and hijinks.
I've worked at two Vault top 100 firms in Austin this summer, and neither have seemed to suffer any repercussions from the economic downturn. I've been taken to lunch every single day, and both firms seem to be planning to offer just about everyone.
Follow up on 11:23:
Mofo took all of its summer associates and gave them awesome MoFo logo-ed t-shirts! how awesome is that! It's like the t-shirt is saying a swear word! Just wanted to share since the goings on of MoFo SA's is so relevant to the thread!!!!!`1
IN NAPA!!!!
I don't think it's Skadden Chi.
I don't see why more people don't want to work at the branch offices of NY firms that pay NY scale, especially as junior associates. Better quality of life than any NY office, that's for sure. I guess if you really really really want to make partner it's a bad idea.
you take a napa, you don't visit napa...
I work for the Gub-mint this summer and I have my own office.
Seriously though, guys- don't be fooled- they're hiding the cots you'll be sleeping on for the next ten years in the same wine cellar that all the bottles are coming from.
Enjoy alcoholism, hypertension, and 2+ divorces everybody!
3:56 = comment of the day
Seriously, you folks in your ivory tower law firms... pull your head out of your partner's behind long enough to see what you are missing.
5:45 - Sidley does not have any new office space "coming on line" soon. It moved into its current offices a couple of years ago - Jenner, Skadden, and Kirkland are all moving to new offices soon, though.
1L Summer Associate at 2 firms in Houston here. Everything is business as usual, lunches every day, solid evening events, each firm had a retreat, etc...And most of the summers at either firm did NOT go to t14.
Come on now guys, be fair. Deep inside, they're suffering dearly. Sure, they're making a lot of money.
But considering: (1) their insane cost-of-living swallows up most of it; (2) they have no time to actually enjoy it because they're owned by their firms; and (3) in the next decade or two, when they assume they'll have millions saved up, the world as we know it---including the economy---will bear no resemblance whatsoever to our current system, that money will mean nothing.
And even if you disagree with (3), and actually believe there's precedent for what's happening on earth now and that this system will carry-on in perpetuity, they'll still wake up one day fat, unhealthy, lonely, and in therapy, and wonder what happened to their late 20's 30's, and 40's.
So have compassion. The fact that they graduated from Ivy League schools and spent their waking lives in a "prestigious" law office will be the only thing that they can keep telling themselves to pretend that they're actually happy.
10:00 - I often hear this kind of crap from people who couldn't get jobs at real firms. I took 5 weeks vacation last year. I've been married for 8 years. I'm currently at budget, but am going to trial in the fall, so I'll have enough hours banked to take 5+ weeks off again. All firms are not as bad as these people say.
10:55
Skadden also of course is the one that's famous for being willing or even eager to hire accomplished T1 state school grads and very hungry T2 grads. That's partly because of their burn rate and the nature of the work, but there's also this weird "driven" stuff going on.
You'd almost expect them to be one of the first to try that theoretical law firm structure model that has been proposed as a response to bimodal starting salaries.
Skadden also happens to be one of the biggest offenders of summer fantasy camp versus reality, but no one should be stupid enough to be fooled by that anymore. Anyone who is should be ignored as idiot.
How could someone not know about what Skadden is really like?
10:00 AM here is a quote that you may want to familiarize yourself with, "those who say that $$$ is not everything usually don't have any."
Do you need a hug? Don't be so bitter because you or someone you know chose not to take that particular path for various spiritual, emotional, and/or physical reasons. Let the rest of us enjoy the fruits of our labor.
You do have some valid points, but that should in no way encourage you to start generalizing. Alot of us perform great under stress, others may not have the testicular fortitude to do so, but may still "test the waters." Those in the latter group, when they fail, sometimes choose to whine about the system.
Don't blame the system, just try another gig, you'll soon find what works best for you. But under no circumstances should a reasonable person be inclined to bash who performed when they couldn't.
P.S. Really, go get a hug, you'll feel better.
go quinn
@ 11:11, so true about some people performing well under stress... that's what gets some people going.
@ 11:11, so true about some people performing well under stress... that's what gets some people going.
Hey 11:11, that's a great number, by the way.
And actually, I couldn't be any less bitter. I was simply pointing out that those who continue to judge others based on the school they went to or the firms they work in are the ones who are dying inside.
And that's a nice quote. Unfortunately, it's completely irrelevant to my post, as I never stated that "money isn't everything." Really. Please read it again if you don't believe me.
Actually, I'd guess that most who post here ARE dying inside. I mean, those who CAN stand being enslaved by a firm w/no lives aren't the ones posting here anyway. They're the geeks who live to work anyway, and are too busy working "to get ahead."
But here, in contrast, are those who actually think they're cool and secretly wish they had lives. Ya know, the crude/immature/irreverant comments, the pop culture references, the use of the word "douche," (which in an of itself is 100% proof of what Herbs they are), etc. They're primarily the ones who fool themselves into believing that they can have both, and thus, the ones most likely to be severely disappointed.
But hey, keep telling yourselves how ill you are. It makes for great, great entertainment for those of us lawyers who do real work while still getting to see the light of day.
Now bill some hours.
Guys in my high school were twice divorced alcoholics. It was no big deal.
Shut it, 12:45. Guys in my high school used to talk about guys in my high school who were twice-divorced alcoholics. It was no big deal.
1L summer associate in Houston.
The top 2 firms in town (Vinson & Elkins and Baker Botts) still have very full social calendars including lunches every day and dinners/outings 4-6 nights a week. Plus each had a firmwide retreat and plenty of free stuff. And both are expected to hire every SA who doesn't make a fool of themselves. The vast majority of the summers are T14 or UT Law students.
Are posts about Texas and Texas firms relevant to this blog???
I'm at Dechert for the summer, and I haven't noticed any slack in the summer program. I've been taken out to top restaurants every day this summer (except two when I turned down invitations to get a project done), and last month they flew every single summer in the country out to London for four days. The pinch might be coming at the end of the summer, but so far they're promising us 100% barring any major screw-ups.
It's not Skadden-Chicago. They have made clear to all summers that they expect everyone to get an offer.
Also, the office has been pretty busy with work. Several summers have stayed long hours to work on REAL projects, so there dealflow and litigation is still there. In fact, I think you'd struggle to come up with another Chicago firm that has had a busier year in corporate.
It's not Skadden-Chicago. They have made clear to all summers that they expect everyone to get an offer.
Also, the office has been pretty busy with work. Several summers have stayed long hours to work on REAL projects, so their dealflow and litigation is still there. In fact, I think you'd struggle to come up with another Chicago firm that has had a busier year in corporate.
2:20, News flash: you live in Houston. The reason most of your SAs are not T14 is because people at T14 schools are smart enough to realize what a s---hole Houston is.
7:28 - Not a struggle at all, Kirkland.
1:13- New Flash, take your head out of your a** and read what 2:20 wrote before you talk down to him, he said that most of the SA's ARE from T14 schools, I guess they must have been the T14's who didn't get your memo about Houston being a s***hole, huh?
11:48 - Thanks for putting him in his place.
1:13 - I often wonder why people outside of Texas feel this constant need to trash Texas. We live here because we like it: because the pay is the same, because the cost of living is drastically lower, because the work is just as sophisticated, because the economy is stronger, because the people are attractive, because the weather is nice, because the food is good, etc. Have fun living in whatever sh!thole you live in, working twice as hard, and getting paid the same amount. Oh, and being surrounded by ugly people - that's always fun, too.
11:06 - Skadden has worked on 6 of the 10 biggest global deals in the first half of 2008, and the Chicago office was responsible for a heavy share of that. Where was Kirkland on the list?
3:20 aka Skadden SA - K&E and Skadden do different kinds of work. No one who actually practices M&A/PE would actually expect to see K&E on that list.
Jenner plans on giving everyone offers, summers go to lunches every day, and people all around are very busy, including the summers. Sonnenschein is a better guess.