Justin, do you really think the lolcats are funny? If so, go rent the movie Animal House to help develop the sense of humor you apparently lack. Lolcats are so unfunny they make me want to cry. I will ask you again... please quit it with the lolcats and find some other catchy work to push your recruiter services...

Justin, the lolcats are hilarious. Keep it up!

I hate the cats; almost makes me want to stop coming to the site

It costs firms essentially nothing to give offers. The issue will be if they ask everyone back in Fall 2009. The risk is entirely held by the student with the offer, so might as well give everyone offers in case the economy picks up and you need associates again.

It costs firms a lot to give offers and then rescind them. Its not a PR blow that any firm wants to take.

I cannot tell you how much this pisses me off. Why in the flying f%^& should a firm TRY to give everyone an offer? It basically says that the firm is desperate.

Be honest. Given that we get summer clerks based on a resume and a couple of interviews, we're normally reeling in 20-40% that shouldn't be hired. Either they're douchebags that you wouldn't let within a mile of a client, dumbasses that never learned how to write, assholes with entitlement complexes, or just plain lazy.

Yet, firms bend over backwards to give everyone an offer so that "law students won't talk about our low offer rate." Fuck that noise.

I had a law student ask me at a lunch interview a couple of years ago why our firm only gave offers to 6 out of 8 clerks the summer before. I told him that the other 2 clerks could barely form a sentance correctly, so their writing was terrible. And the law student was still confused.

Look, you have no right to a permanent offer. There is no "offer that is yours to lose." If you do good work, try hard, and are personable, AND the firm projects that it needs another junior associate, then you should get an offer.

1:07,

I would not ever work for you or your TTT firm.

Sincerely,

1:12

1:07 - how did you get an offer, since you are arrogant and can't spell?

I think all the arrogant prick firms that hire people strictly off one or two grades they get 1st semester of 1L year deserve to get screwed once in awhile.

If you're a fucking grade snob, you're going to end up with some total toolbags. Try giving interviews and making some summer offers based on the person and their resume, as oppose to some worthless Civil Procedure grade.

Sincerely,

Bottom 2/3 of the class

Regarding the comments quoted in the posts, what law students a summer associateship after 1L at a respectable law firm, even from a T10 school?

Also, 1:07 - the issue is that not getting an offer from the firm you summer with can be a "kiss of death." Law students that don't get an offer to come back full time can have a lot of trouble finding a job without that summer offer in their pocket. Low offer rate = huge risk for the student = not working at your firm unless it's their only option.

yeah 1:07. Lame. Cant be a NY firm.

Echo 1:22 - Grade snob firms deserve to get hosed on some @$$wipe associates. True dat.

I find pointing out spelling errors in blog comments to be absolutely idiotic, but... with the pompous, arrogant drivel spewed by 1:07, particularly when degrading someone who can't write, it is ironic to see that person can't spell "sentence" correctly.

1:07 sucks!!!

Say you have two identical firms. Firm A gave offers to 20 out of 20 summers last year. Firm B gave offers to 16 out of 20.

Then suppose you are in the top quarter at a T5 school, so you have at least a few options for where to work. Between these two, which would you choose?

Well, when I was interviewing as a 2L I definitely checked NALP to see if all the summers at firms I looked at were getting offers....

I agree with 1:07 that an offer shouldn't be a guarantee. Whatever happened to it being a "summer-long interview"? Many summers from top schools are entitled and know they can do pretty much anything, including insulting the firm and their future colleagues, abusing the generosity of the summer program, dressing inappropriately, and turning in poor or sloppy work product, and still get an offer. It's an office, not summer camp for the entitled.

"Law students that don't get an offer to come back full time can have a lot of trouble finding a job without that summer offer in their pocket."

And that is completely rational if the reason they didn't get an offer was that they were an entitled lazy douchebag.

Months long internships are such a luxury for hiring firms and for students. You get multiple chances to prove yourself, the firm gets to evaluate how it will be to have you hanging around the office. If you can't make friends and do some minimal amount of solid work in 11 weeks, you don't deserve an offer. And if other firms want to trust the judgment of their peer hiring partners over your ex post rationalizations re: unfair work expectations, that is their perogative.

The firms that should get a bad rep are the ones that hire 20 summers and then only take 5. Those firms are just bad planners. But every summer associate class I have seen has one or two people that would poison the air if they were allowed to stay.

Does anyone feel they've worked as an associate for 4-5 years but have not developed any real skills or practice expertise? Also, how common is it for people to switch practice focuses?

I think another reason firms should be expected to give everyone an offer unless they f*** up is that a lot of summers have passed over other job opportunities to take that firm's offer. If the firm they choose isn't going to pick them, they could have (and should have) gone somewhere else. And I know all about splitting, but I don't think it's the answer to this problem.

"I had a law student ask me at a lunch interview a couple of years ago why our firm only gave offers to 6 out of 8 clerks the summer before. I told him that the other 2 clerks could barely form a sentance correctly, so their writing was terrible. And the law student was still confused."

What a fine example of excellent writing. Bravo!

I agree with 1:22 -- if you're not top of your class at a t14 or some kind of minority you're sol even though you might be better than a lot of the douches who get these summer jobs.

if you do solid work and are normal, i.e. good attitude, then you should get an offer. yes its true that the firm really doesnt know anything about you or your work but then again there is no way to tell until real work begins. that being said, however, firms of course can no offer one that acts like an idiot, with attitude, or cant get along with others etc as that is a recipe for disaster.

I have a friend who’s working on his English doctorate. When I showed him this site and explained the offer related problems, he chuckled and said, “They’re worried about getting lucrative permanent offers after two years of school? I might never work in my field, where the average job hunt period is three to five years.”

You don't need to be top of your class at a T14... more like in the top 2/3.

1:38,

Well, when you were interviewing as a 2L, you were definitely a douchebag....

1:07--

Why is your firm hiring people it shouldn't be hiring? To me, that says your firm is stupid and is wasting money. The firms that hire all their candidates (or try to do so, barring extreme stupidity on the part of the summer associate) show that they take enough time with their initial hiring, that they don't have to let 20-40% go. I think those firms are smart.

If your firm's hirees can't string together a sentence, why are you hiring them in the first place??

I work at a firm that will take just about anyone from harvard, but only the top 1% from schools below a certain level. It is great fun to watch the T14 summers try to figure out who are the powerful partners and respected associates. They always guess based on US news rankings and they are almost always wrong. Not having gone to harvard, I endorse for offers those summers who don't make elitist assumptions.

"If your firm's hirees can't string together a sentence, why are you hiring them in the first place?"

Because they proofread their resume at least.

Our summers are all pretty decent. They do decent work and they behave well. I think they know it's a bad market and none of them want to have to reinterview.

They all deserve offers, at least going by our previous years' standards.

All our summers can form sentences. A few of them don't feel like they need to once they arrive for the summer, which reflects a miscalculation. It annoys us because we give our summers the benefit of the doubt and assign them real work.

When you refer to them as "law clerks" hired for the summer, as opposed to "summer associates", it is likely that you are talking about a different breed of firm that many of us on board.

It's really annoying how the lower tier grads feel they have to keep proving that they're "just as good" as the people who went to good schools.

Agreed... you may think you are "just as good," but your 155 LSAT indicates otherwise. Good luck finding a job.

1.44 - You are not alone

Can anyone summarize the shorthand notations for these schools?

HYS = Harvard, Yale, Stanford, right?
T5? = Columbia, HYS, NYU?
T10?

I have no substantive comments about the content of this post, but I think the cats/kittens are adorable. Keep 'em coming.

2:19 = douche who probably could not even get into law school!

2:13: the smartest law student I know went to BLS.

Pls keeps upz wit lolcats. Dey r da bomz. Kthxbye.

Pls keeps upz wit lolcats. Dey r da bomz. Kthxbye.

2:24 and bernold the cats suck

2:23pm,

What do you mean?

2:23(2) = 0L

Haha. Another kitty. This one has scary eyes, though.

yea, right on 2:13 + 2:19 - contrary to popular belief, the aggregate worth of a human being IS actually measured by your LSAT score!

... I'm sorry both of you are fukin morons if you think performance on a single standardized exam is a proxy for comparison throughout an attorney's career

2:23, the top ten schools, you retard. Go look them up.

/s/
LSAT 154 --> Clerk

You can't tell from a 15 min interview and a resume how someone will affect the chemistry at a firm. I agree with 1:07, why poison the atmosphere with someone who clearly is not right for the job.

NEWS FLASH!!!

You don't need to be a genius to work at any law firm. If you do transactional, you just cut and paste documents and chat with clients. If you do litigation, you do doc review and bunch of motions that judges hardly read anyway.

You only need a couple of stars for the partnership track. The rest of the partners will lateral in. The non-partnership-track associates (i.e., 99% of the firm) will leave anyway once you've used and abused them.

It's quite simple really.

Pay no attention to the lolcats haters. Keep up the good work.

The LSAT is not a lottery. It is a test you can study for. If you're willing to take the time and effort to study in undergrad and to study for the LSAT, you can get into a good law school. If you didn't do that, then accept that your position and don't get mad at people who worked hard and went to Harvard.

There is always going to be the problem of entitlement and/or poor skills. The students at highly ranked schools (and some at some not-so-highly-ranked schools) are taught, usually from a very young age, that they are special and superior. Summer programs directly reinforce this thinking with the way summers are handled with kid gloves. In that respect, firms themselves are partly to blame. Don't know why lawyers are so surprised by this. Second, law schools do such a poor job of preparing students to practice law, low skill level is to be expected as well. Exam writing doesn't promote good writing skills in the least, and most schools only teach the most rudimentary concepts of legal writing and research. Transactional training is pretty much non-existent. I don't know why anyone is surprised that summers can't do any type of substantive work correctly beyond the most basic tasks (and even those get screwed up sometimes). Not really the summers' fault.

Typo, meant to say "accept your position."

Better question: why do you want to summer at a firm after your 1L year? Do something fun, you have plenty of time to be a miserable douchebag.

2:51 - to have $36,000 less in debt.

2:51: LOANS.

That, and I want to compare practice groups and firms.

I love the cats. They keep me coming back. How can you not think they're adorable?

1:44

I feel the same way, only dfference is that i'm a 2nd yr.

Whats the verdict on meeting billables this year? go or no-go?

I was an engineer for nearly a decade before I thought about law school, took a practice LSAT and didn't miss any questions. I had a bad head cold when I took the test for real and only got a score in the 170s. Harvard still didn't take me because my top hard-as-hell undergrad electrical engineering program didn't grade inflate like your polysci department.

Anyway, I rocked a public law school and got the same job as if I had spent twice as much at harvard. Its not an inferiority complex that makes me disrespect your elitism.

3:04, you are statistical noise. I'm sorry your resume sucks :(

2:51 - Don't you have to pay taxes? The money, whatever's left, does help. Agree with you there.

People who say "loans" are lying. No one pays down their loans with the money they earn in the summer. Don't be douchebags.

I love the cats. Especially this one.

I tend to think the people who say they're summering for the money are just looking for an excuse to do it. In the context of your professional life, the money you make as a summer is negligible and, in my opinion, not worth subjecting yourself to an unnecessary summer in a firm, when you could be doing something more fulfilling. But take what I say with a grain of salt, as I actually work at a firm and have a different perspective from the uninformed law students who typically fill these boards with paeans to all things Big Law.

This board and the recruitment office at Skadden is the only place my resume sucks.

3:17 et all, no one "subjects" him or herself to "unnecessary summer in a firm." It's like camp. For a few hours of work each day, you get free events and a huge paycheck. I never had a cent of debt but loved having tens of thousands of dollars in pocket money. I spent my 1L summer cash on plastic surgery, a vacation in Europe, clothes, and drugs.

3:04 PM-- I'm on your team... I have an overwhelming urge to punch Elitists on their noses every... single... day. Why do they even bother to wake up?

truly yours,
3:24

Does being a minority really help that much when it comes to applying for summer associate positions at law firms?

3:18, don't forget your wall. Your resume (in diploma form) sucks there, too.

no

1. Loans -- I could shave off a substantial portion of my GradPLUS and Stafford loans, which have high fixed interest rates.

2. Firm comparison -- I can compare my 1L and 2L firms, allowing me to find the right practice group and mentor for me. Too many associates burn out in firms because they're not at the "right" one.

3. Firm tote bags -- they're awesome! I'll wear it everywhere I go.

Is anything more annoying than 3Ls walking around with firm bookbags and baseball caps?

3:25= Asshat...

Sincerely,
3:24

3:04, if you don't have an inferiority complex why are you telling us your fascinating rags-to-riches life story on an anonymous internet message board??

The only people with an interest in reducing their resume to a single name of a school on a diploma are trust fund kids who's sole accomplishment in life was getting an alumni preference into hah-vahd or "a little school in connecticut." My diploma says summa on it, but it got bent in the mail and I'd rather look at art on my office wall all day.

Its good though, because there are a few summers and associates who think like you, and I am happy that they self-select out of working for me. The nice thing about my life is that I don't have to write Yale on it to win people over.

Anyone ever done a good analysis of the most profitable locations to be a summer associate, accounting for COL and rent? I'd suspect it breaks down like it does for starting associates (which would make TX the run-away winner), but naturally without the salary compression issues.

My poli sci department didn't grade inflate... I was just really fucking good at it.

"3:04, if you don't have an inferiority complex why are you telling us your fascinating rags-to-riches life story on an anonymous internet message board??"

Because I want to be loved. Because actual life stories are the best cure for dumb-ass assumptions based on bad merit proxies. Why are you disparaging me on an anonymous internet message board?

3:35 PM (1)--- I'm pretty sure 3:04 is sharing his/her story so that those poor folk who do not possess the picture perfect pedigree and requisite fauhawk, can realize that it's ok. There isn't only one path to Biglaw, not matter what DB's and Asshats on ATL say.

Thanks,
3:24

Might be a little off topic from the debate over resumes and rankings, but some of my classmates have started a "no-offer" pool. Its pretty simple, we wrote down names of the biggest asshats and crazy students summering at big firms. Tossed the names in a hat and then drew them. To avoid sabotage, the only rule was that you had to pick again if you drew a classmate who was working with you that summer.
I've heard that my pony is doing pretty well at ensuring he'll be doing OCI as a 3L .

Seriously, lolcats are miserable. I can't believe a dude posts them. If Kash was posting, I wouldn't be complaining as much... even though the actual lolcats would still be just as miserable. But seriously... no more lolcats... they have absolutely zero entertainment value...

1:45pm (1)

wow such entitlement. Its called life. Shit happens. You bust your ass , you do what you are told and the rug is pulled out from under you. it happens. I cant believe the dweeb who wrote this - waaaa 1st summers worked butts off for 1 YEAR academically (maybe) so they should all get offers...NO

Also making a choice should not insulate you from the consequences of that choice. It happens all the time why do summer associates they are so different from the realities of life...

They should not all get offers. You are not all entitled to a 160K salary just because you either lucked out by getting a 170 on your lsat and went t14 or because you mastered a law school exam.

Be grateful you got the opportunity to make some dough this summer. There is nothing so special about most of you summers that should scream I deserve job security while people who have been busting their asses working in these same law firms cant expect that job security either. Its the new economy and the weak and stupid wont survive - pretty soon there wont be the luxury of resting on your ivy laurels you will actually have to duke it out in the business world with real business acumen and the sad truth is that most ivy leaguers lack even the most common sense let alone business saavy.

__________________________________________
I think another reason firms should be expected to give everyone an offer unless they f*** up is that a lot of summers have passed over other job opportunities to take that firm's offer. If the firm they choose isn't going to pick them, they could have (and should have) gone somewhere else.....

Ditto... the cats are TTT?

3:55 picks up chicks by telling them he went to Yale.

i like kittens!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!

We are not elitists. We are just quantifiably better than you. It's not a matter of opinion, but of fact.

fascist

If your highest accolade is your IVY education, yours is a sad life indeed. 'Tard...

T-14 summers should always get offers. They have worked far too hard and are far too clever to be treated like any other law student.

Once hired, they should never be laid off. Never. Ever.

Their reviews should only be done by fellow T-14 lawyers. Can you imagine if a Fordham grad were to review a Yale man? Preposterous!!

They should be issued robes hand-woven from the downy pubic hair of red-headed virgins. Their law school and LSAT score should be embroidered on the back in golden letters.

I actually really love the lolcats. Please continue putting them up.

T14 law grads are the biggest and best douches there are. Why do so many of you feel the need to compete with them?

You can't win...

How can "most Ivy Leaguers" lack sense? It's not like most of them were admitted based on legacy status; in reality, most of them are admitted based on merit (except the AA people, which is a different story)...I don't understand all the people who claim students at top schools are "dumb" and "have no sense..." The SAT and the LSAT require a certain amount of analytical ability and raw intelligence, and I assume that performance on those tests is factored into admission decisions....By the way, went to a decent public school, so this doesn't offend me, it's amusing though!

3:37/3:41, I never said T14 was the only path to biglaw, and your anecdotal life stories do nothing to refute the statement that graduates from elite schools are smarter, as a group. I never said a degree from a top school was sufficient for a good resume, and I never implied that lawyers from shitty schools are all stupid and destined for contract work. I only stated, in response to your intellectual rags-to-riches story, that you've still got a crappy resume.

(p.s., my diploma says suma on it, too)

im doing a law preview class right now, been eating lunch with Harvard and Cornell future 1Ls, both seem very nice and not the least stuck up. the Harvard kid is one of the nicest people I've met in a long time.

will they remain this way? or will the school ruin decent people?

6:48:

What TTT issues a dipoma that says "suma" on it?

I went to Stanford undergrad, got a masters (equivalent) at the Universita degli Studi di Bologna, and followed it up with a degree from Yale Law. It was only then that my shit ceased to stink.

being able to diligently take a test or write a paper and/or make that the focus of your life is what seems to separate MOST ivy leaguers from the also rans (mid tier) who didnt particularily care and instead focused on having fun.

But dedicating yourself for a couple of years in high school and maybe in college (but for most ivy leaguers its moot cuz of the grade inflation in these schools) does NOT mean you are some how smarter than the folks who decided to actually enjoy their lives.

At a certain point things shift and in the working world - you degree isnt going to save your ass if you arent producing, managing, increasing, whatever it is to improve your business.

I've heard or known of so many instances where people were hired solely for their ivy status because it was presumed they were smart and it turned out they were incompetent. Working at a job and doing well in school are not the same thing.

GW kid i worked with was super sharp, focused and just all there, Upenn kid a blundering idiot.

Penn state kid wicked smart and dedicated, t14 kid clueless.

This isnt to say that all are such - but when you start focusing on the degree rather than the persons actual capability you do your business a huge disservice. A monkey can do most biglaw jobs, as a matter of fact most paralegals can do the job. Instead you have a market that chases someone based on their degree/gpa without looking at the value they actually add to the company - they are literally hiring degrees so they can justify their high fees to their clients...if a client actually knew what big law associates (especially 1-3rd years) do they would ^&^ a brick and demand a huge discount. Billing an inept kid out of law school for doing a stupid organizational chart for $325/hr is high way robbery. Billing an idiot to spend 3 hours researching something that could have been done in 30 minutes is robbery. Using a 1st year to manage a closing which amounts to collecting signature sheets and sliding em in folders for a closing is a ripoff. Billing all day because you sat at the printers reviewing stupid ass financials before their final printing is a rip off when you know an educated high school senior could have done it.

9:56... I hate to break it to you, but you are not the only person who has thought of that. But just because I'm bored...

What else are they supposed to focus on besides degree and gpa. I bet, for the most part, those are pretty good heuristics for determining who is smart, hard working person. Granted, not every ivy leaguer can cut it in biglaw, but I'm sure the miss rate is much smaller than picking a guy out of penn state law.

Now, you've had experiences with great lower tier schooled associates. Maybe that's just the system working. Your firm saw beyond the bad school and gave them a chance. That's great, but I'm sure those associates had something really special going for them. That rarely shines through as most people are able to refrain from being complete jerks at an interview. Law firms don't have the time or desire to play a game of beer pong and trivial pursuit with your average frat stud.

As for grade inflation... I truly hate it when people bitch about grade inflation. Here's a new perspective, maybe the grades are higher because the students are smarter!!! It would be ridiculous for a valedictorian to get Bs just because he's a small fish in a big mental pond at an ivy league, when he could get straight A+s at penn state honors. Smart kids = good grades.

What is TTT?

I hate to break it to you asshats, but even if you do get a big firm job, y90% are going to wash out by the 4th year and end up taking a job that pays less than your 1st year. HAHAHAA fuckers!

9:56, I'm sorry to shatter your myth, but I had a great time during college and law school and still managed to excel. You can continue to believe that everyone's equally smart and special, and that the only thing separating an ivy leaguer from someone at a mid tier school is a "life," but the fact is that the ivy leaguers, as a group, are just smarter.

12:16, I think it stands for "The Third Tier", but I could be wrong. One thing I do know for sure though is that you are TTT for asking, and I am TTT for guessing. As I am sure subsequent commentors will confirm for us shortly.

5:49 - "downy-haired virgins."

Hilarious. Almost splashed the coffee on the keyboard...

4:29 yes yes and yes. you are correct in all

quinn went hiking in swiss