The Sapphic Summers: An Update
Here’s an update on the two female summer associates we wrote about earlier today. For those of you just tuning in, here’s the abridged version of their story: they were fired sometime in the past week by Lindquist & Vennum, the Minneapolis law firm, after getting drunk and kissing each other. For more details, read the original post.
It appears, however, that some of the information in the original post was in error (and we will update the prior post with a link to this post, to set the record straight, if you will). Here are some things we learned in response to our request for more tips:
1. The Kiss did not take place on a boat cruise. Rather, it went down at a social event held after the firm’s semi-annual “Partners Dinner” (to which summer associates are usually invited). Said social event / after-party took place at a local watering hole.2. Lindquist & Vennum does take its summer associates on a boat cruise. But the summers in question are not alleged to have misbehaved on the cruise.
3. As for the extent of The Kiss, “[i]t is unclear whether the girls ‘made out’ or merely kissed on the lips.”
We should hope it was full-on making out, replete with groping. Sure, it’s the Midwest, but seriously — canning two young women because they pecked each other on the lips? Jeez. Can we please move into the 21st century?
4. Sources disagree on whether the firings were based solely on the events of that evening or whether they were premised upon a larger pattern and practice of misbehavior. One source claims that “LV didn’t fire them [just] for a little lesbian action.”5. Another source claims, however, that the firm’s internal story is that the firings were based just on what happened on the day of The Kiss.
6. But what happened that fateful day allegedly included more than just The Kiss. The women were warned earlier that day that their drinking during firm lunches and other events was excessive. Despite that warning, they allegedly got drunk that same night, culminating in The Kiss.
7. All members of the firm have been told not to comment to anyone about the firings and to forward all requests for information to Nancy Vollertsen.
8. The women are not lesbians (and at least one has a boyfriend).
Cue I Kissed A Girl, by Katy Perry: “I kissed a girl and I liked it / The taste of her cherry chapstick / I kissed a girl just to try it / I hope my boyfriend don’t mind it.”
9. Both summer associates are “quite attractive.”10. One source claims that the Lindquist firm “has tolerated much more drastic behavior from male associates in the past.”
Indeed. We were wondering about a double standard, and it seems that our speculation was not far off the mark.
We do strive for accuracy and completeness, even when reporting events of less-than-cosmic significance, like summer associate stories. If you have corrections to offer or supplementary tidbits to share, please email us (subject line: “Lindquist and Vennum Summer Associate Scandal”). Thanks.
P.S. With respect to the comments, please note that the standard ATL policy applies. Please do not identify these summers by name or provide additional identifying details about them (e.g., law schools).
If you see such a comment made by another poster, please email us (subject line: “Comment Removal Request”), and we will remove the comment (and ban the commenter’s IP address from future commenting). Thanks.
Update: Some interesting (and amusing) reactions from the readers of Jezebel. For example:
[M]ost of the big firms care very deeply about their images, including their reputation for diversity. They’d be psyched to have lesbians working for them, as long as they could count them in the diversity spreadsheet as gay. Faux lesbians kissing? Probably not so much.
Further Update: Partner Nancy Vollertsen issued a brief comment to the City Pages of Minneapolis. See here.
Earlier: Summer Associates of the Day: Sapphic Summers in Lesbianic Lip-Lock?
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My heart leaps.
I'm FIRST!!!
isn't this the firm that walter mondale toiled for, earlier in his career?
8:12--that's Dorsey.
http://www.dorsey.com/mondale_walter/
Anytime gals gets canned for drinkin' too much at schmoozy firm events and muggin down with each other the terrorists have won.
Oh god, I am totally pitching tent in my office on this story. Is it sexual harassment if I splooge in my pants and my secretary hears me?
8:17 - If so, I'm going down with you... I love summer associates (caveat: only at other firms).
Lat, I'm glad you have thick skin. It sucks that you have to put caveats on every single thread now, but a lesser man would have backed down on countless stories that you've turned into sensations. At least you stuck with them.
You might be the only guy in the media with the integrity to actually post something not positive about Obama (like his commie economic suicide pact tax plan).
Good for you. I hope you are rewarded for playing it so straight. I would pay to subscribe to this blog.
you know what kills me? where have these kids' parents been their whole lives??
When I was younger I was out to dinner with a bunch of family members. My dad was taking lots and lots of shots of vodka with them. I asked him in amazment how can he keep going with these shots and be sober. He said "whenever you are somewhere you don't want to get drunk and people are drinking, keep a shot glass with water near you."
- That is todays lesson for summer interns, keep a shot glass with water near you when you feel you are near your limit.
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Dear Carpet-Munching Chicks Who Were Shit-Canned From Lindquist & Vennum:
I am the hiring partner at a major firm in D.C. If you appy to my firm, as a pair, and if you include photos of the two of you locking lips, and if you are hot, I will hire you at much more than Lindquist & Vennum ever could have paid you. And I will lobby to get you a signing bonus.
Question to lesbo ladies -- are either of you into 41 year old married men with salt/pepper hair and a beer belly? If so, apply to all the big firms in D.C. (I repeat, as a pair) and I'll do what I can to get you hired. No joke.
"Harold," Big-Law Hiring Partner
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8:28 - That's a solid idea. Lat, why not start a pay version with jucier stories? (Like the rumors you won't post?) Consider me subscriber #2.
7 - i agree - this blog is by far the best legal blog - i love it
Lat -- your blog is so hot right now !!!
I love lesbians, especially when there is nipple-touching involved.
Thanks for keeping it real... real hot !!!
;-)
Lat is f-ing brilliant: He found a way to get the kissy picture back to the top of the main page for the night.
Lat, did you learn this stuff at YLS? Maybe I should have applied there after all . . .
One facebook profile was fully deleted. No one's feeling bad yet?
7 - The comment about Lat "playing it so straight" is cute. Were you trying to be funny or are you just an ignorant groupie. The idea that you would pay for this blog suggests the latter, but then you may just be being cute there as well. Or maybe you're just Lat jerking around again. I hate these post-modernist enigmas.
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
LESBIANS
The claims "it wasnt just for that one event" is usually total bullshit.
Yes, fire the SA's for a little over the top actions at a function where the firm feeds everyone drinks but hold on to the "hot new IP partner" who displays a unwaivering penchant for groping women and nearly raping young associates. (See Jeremy Pitcock). If these SA's had a solid book of business they could have had their way with a double sided dildo in front of everyone and been secure in their jobs. Biglaw = hypocrites.
The lawyers at Lindquist seem to lack foresight and vision.
Working long hours would be a lot better if there were even a small chance that you might bump into two hot women making out at the office.
I don't think I'd want the kind of lawyer that can't see this to do any work for me.
Igor's Favorite Topics/Stories/Characters on www.abovethelaw.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
10. The Chinaman Chronicles (especially Evan from Kinney China Recruiters)
9. The Chinaman Chronicles (when Roger Lou appears)
8. Carpet-Munching Summer Associates
7. Thai Chicks Getting Shit-Canned for Miscarrying Babies
6. AU Law Sucks and a degree from it is TTTier than GULC
5. AU Law Sucks and a degree from it is TTTier than GW
4. AU Law Sucks and a degree from it is TTTier than no law degree at all
3. FRATSTUD / FARTSTUD / Barack Hussain Obama / WGWAG / HofstraMagna
2. Judge Halverson is real fat
1. Sex Freaks at Cravath / STDs at Sutherland / Gays at Sullivan / French Fry men at Mcdermott / Jeremy Pitcocks and Kasowitz / Lesbos at Linquist ......
5,
Yes.
--Your Secretary
I noticed the potential for humor in the "straight" line as I was hitting "post comment."
I don't like to make fun of David for his race or sexual orientation and I wasn't trying to. But yeah, I guess it's there.
I'll admit I'm kind of a groupie, too, since I think anyone who can take so much public scrutiny - from judges, law firm partners & associates, law students, law professors, other bloggers, and his own savage blog commenters - and keep his head up and keep putting out such a stellar product is special.
Throw in that I'm a biglaw associate outside NYC who owes Lat for a couple of big pay bumps and you've got a loyal fan.
#7
How can I study for the bar when all I can think about is hot lesbian action?
Firing because they drank a bit much and had a girl-on-girl kiss - sketchy.
Firing because of excessive drinking after being warned about it - less so. I've seen it happen, although it's usually done with a bit less publicity. I suspect there was more questionable behavior than this one episode. It's hard to imagine being so close-minded that a kiss would yield a firing.
But imagine if they were drunkenly blabbing confidential client information in public. Or if they were talking smack to people under the L&V aegis. Part of being a grown-up is knowing when party antics aren't appropriate anymore. It's about how to moderate your behavior when faced with temptations. Just because the firm serves liquor doesn't mean you have to drink to intoxication.
Regardless of sexual orientation, I'd fire (or at least, refuse to hire) someone in a heartbeat if I felt they weren't mature enough to behave appropriately. Especially if they're on a 10-week job interview like summer associates are.
Enjoyed reading ATL today, thanks! And let's hope this is a lesson to the summer associates out there.
#20. Will you elaborate on the SAB / STD rumor? I've used rubbers with all the summer associates and secretaries that I've slept with. I hope for their sake that I didn't give any of the biaaaaches the clap.
Seconded, 23. I'm blaming this all on Lat when I blow the bar. At least by February he'll be up in NYC and too busy to blog.
Igor at 20, what about AA trolls?
Lindquist & Vennum to 190K !!!
Also, Igor, what about guys with no life (myself included) hitting on Kash?
_____________
Hi, Kash!
ZOMFG!!
I kid you not, at the top of this page, right now, is a huge, pink "Lesbian Test" banner.
Lat, your advertisers are seriously on the ball. That's even better than the mail-order Indian bride one. (And likelier to get clicked a few times, if you ask me. )
Igor (aka - #20),
Why all the AU hating? You have 3 comments devoted to hating on AU-Law.
For the record, let me set somethings straight. AU is a fantasic school and certainly better than all the knocking it recieves on this board. I graduated their a while back, and perhaps stuff has changed since the early 90's, but I doubt it. I am sure it is still the best (next to GULC) law school in DC-vacinity. So please stop proliferating the AU-bashing. You are beginnign to tarnish the reptation of a fantastic university and some impressionables will read your comments and not know to disregard them.
Thank you very much.
Will you ban my IP for suggesting that Nancy Vollertsen was a wild one herself back in the day?
31. YOU'RE BANNED !!!
30 (AU alum from the early 90s),
Serious question: Are you retarded?
Please respond.
Thanks,
Fart Stud
31 -
JD Iowa and a Scandinavian last name? CORN-FED BABY YEAH!
I like how LV's Trademarked motto is "When you need a Partner"
30, you're making it way too easy.
Posters knock AU because the posters are insecure (like GW students) or because they know that at least a few AU grads are insecure enough to take the bait.
Look, if I call Duke a TTT, I'll bet none of them sweat it.
Fact: Duke is a TTT and not as good as AU.
There. Now let's see how our experiment plays out. I think you'll find that you're the problem, 30. Also, I'm banning your IP.
-32
23 - Ditto. This posting makes me want to check out that Craigs List posting from a while ago...
Not that I have a dog in this particular fight, but I feel compelled to say that I find AU alumni to be slightly retarded.
Here is my list of DC-area schools, in order of least retarded to most retarded
GULC
GW
University of Maryland
George Mason
Catholic Law
Howard Law
Baltimore Law
University of D.C.
University of Phoenix, online law degree program
American University, WCL
Lat.
You're missing the REAL STORY here.
To wit:
Why did these chicks choose to make out with each other rather than with any of the numerous eligible comely bachelors at L & V?
Answer:
The "men" of L & V are PATHOLOGICALLY FLACCID.
Big time cover-up going down in the Mid-West.
Show of hands: Who thinks Lat actually helped these girls and other summers like them by posting this?
I do. Do you think LV's going to fire the next summer who makes out at a party or just give them an offer and figure, "heck, they'll grow up in a year or two." It's not worth getting teased by lawyers the world over just to fire a couple of delicious summers for doing what the whole firm secretly wished they'd do. I think firms will be less likely to fire people over stuff if they think it'll end up on ATL.
Sounds like "Lustquest & Venom" is party central!!
38 - may as well put UVA, Richmond, W&L, W&M, and Regent... they're all less than 2 hrs from DC.
I like how LV's Trademarked motto is "When you need a Partner"
im so horny
38 (ranker of least to most retarded schools),
I disagree with your rankings. I would rank Howard and Catholic as equals. I also wouldn't even include AU on the list. I don't even think a retard would attend AU, only a brain-damaged person in a "persistant vegetative state" would
40 - "Show of hands: Who thinks Lat actually helped these girls and other summers like them by posting this?"
You may be right about "other interns," but I'll go out on a limb and guess that that both of the fired SAs may not be feeling "helped" by ATL right now, especially after the (now-deleted) indirect instructions on how to find their names via Google caching were included.
38, you left off Regent- it goes right between Catholic and Howard.
By the way, putting WCL at the bottom is really going to hurt 30's feelings. Are you sure you meant that? After all, as any AU grad/ATL commenter will testify, half of the people at AU turned GULC and UVA down for WCL. That means the school must be good.
Retard Ranking--- prestige in legal profession
partner
of counsel / counsel
associate
paralegal
legal assistant
staff (human resources, receptionists, etc.)
staff attorney
garbage collectors
delivery guys from chinatown
unemployed
contract attorneys
any of the above who attended AU Law
48 - that's stuff top-level corner office partners are made of. Well done.
8,
Your dad was a pussy.
Sincerely,
Your Mom
46 -
google deleted it?
#47,
I rejected GULC for American and would do it again in a heartsbeat! There is no reason that AU should get the reputation that peoples like you attempt to bestow (wrongfully) on it. AMERICAN UNIVERSITY'S WCL is probably the second best school in 2 1/2 hour radius of DC.
I admit that UVA is slightly more prestigious, but if you count prestige by % of grads that end up at "big law" or federal appellate clerkships, AU Law certainly does so much better than GULC or any other DC-Area school (save only the University of Virginia)
Take your AU bashing elsewhre and go back to your TTT job, ASS HOLE!!!
count me among those who think this story-despite its 'less than cosmic significance'-reminds us all of ATL's commitment to excellence and integrity. give Lat a Pulitzer.
50, your mother was a prostitute and I've always been sterile.
Love,
Your "father"
52,
Please, if you really are an AU student or alumna, stop defending our school. You write like an idiot at, frankly, are only adding fuel to the "AU haters'" fires.
AU is a great school. No one here -- with knowledge of the school or its alumni -- would disagree. But you, my friend, sound like a retard.
AU alum, and proud.
53, that's a really nice statement. And Lat's attorney can use it during closing arguments in the future civil case "SA#1 and SA#2 v. David Lat et al. dba "Above The Law."
i really love how this board has become a contest of who -- among the AU students / AU alums / anti-AU trolls -- can sound the most ignorant.
I really hope that these folks are all joking. I am starting to believe that AU produces rejects, retards, and refuse.
I feel stupid. Where is "AU" and why does everyone think its such a bad school?
I feel stupid. Where is "AU" and why does everyone think its such a bad school?
9:45 p.m. (1 & 2),
I did a google search for AU, and think the people on this site are writing of the American University's Washington College of Law.
I haven't heard of it and doubt it has a big law school, a good law school, or an accredited law school. I think its like a Pacific-McGovern or Regent or University of Phonix. According to the school's website, it is located in Washington, D.C. -- but I take it that it is an "online only" law school.
Hope this helps.
Why do people keep talking about which law schools produce the most retards... LETS TALK LAWFIRM LESBOS !
9:49, AU HAS A CAMPUS AT TENLEYTOWN, MORON !
9:49, AU HAS A CAMPUS AT TENLEYTOWN, MORON !
This one time, at band camp, I stuck a flute in my pussy.
Any way you look at this; it's sad. Two people have had their pospects killed (whether they acted wrongly or not).
52, are you the same guy who plays Roger Lou?
Also, you know that biglaw staff attorney positions don't count, right?
65, It is indeed sad. I agree: I don't think 64 and 61 are now employable.
Like shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it, 60?
-47
Man, my life sucks. I studied my ass off my whole life to get into a good law school, then I studied my ass off there to get a job at a good firm, and I hate my job. I hate my life, I do boring work. I make a lot of money but I can't spend it cuz I don't have time outside of work. Also I don't have any friends cuz my personality is nastier than rotten eggs. I am so miser-
Wait, I know! I can make fun of people that went to a lower-ranked law school than me! Awesome! TTT! TTT! I am so clever, I'm sure people on the internet who read my posts think I'm hilarious.
What is with this pathetic policy of not allowing posts that include the names of people in these stories?
I am an HLS student with no dog in this AU fight, but I had a visiting prof from AU last year. When asked for "model exam answers" she refused, implying that she had never received a "model answer" from any of her previous AU students.
Just thought I'd add my two cents to this debate.
How can anyone think that AU is not the best law school inside the beltway?! It has a campus at TENLEY TOWN for christ's sake!
Seriously guys, what's with all the University of Phoenix bashing?
50
Thanks for always being there, even though you didn't have to.
How can anyone think that AU is not the best law school inside the beltway?! It has a campus at TENLEY TOWN for christ's sake!
71, if it was an AU lawprof, then she would have replied:
"When the photographer says 'cheese, that means smile."
69, ad hominem attacks are not going to carry the debate for you.
Try ad alma mater attacks.
And good luck transferring out of AU this summer. If it doesn't work out, just remember that when you take that staff attorney job at Wilmer, at least you'll be at Wilmer.
F all that, best bang for your buck for a Top 30 degree - W&M
I heart AU
Almost all my friends that work at big firms have AU people in their summer classes. The summer from AU in my class said that about 20-25% of the class gets jobs through fall recruitment.
me too -- AU rocks... it got me my BIGLAW job that pays me a ton of $$$.... I heart $$$
65 here. Jesus lets hope that none of us have a laspe in judgment. I know it sounds bad but they will pay forever. Attorneys drive drunk do drugs ....etc. and it never gets this kind of press
Can someone tell me where everyone is finding pictures of these women?
I found a pic of the Ivy Leaguer, but not the Big Ten
"Said social event / after-party took place at a local watering hole."
Which local watering hole??? Surely someone can share.
-Minneapolis SA at a less-TTT firm
Hey, I heard that one of these girls went to UPenn St, but I'm trying to figure out if it was the Carlisle or Philly campus. Can anyone help me out?
UPenn St.? Is that like the "Before & After" category on Jeopardy?
87 What are you talking about?
87 what's jeopardy got to do with the UPenn St Law system?
Um, there is no UPenn St.
There is UPenn, and there is Penn State
There is also a frequent category on jeopardy called before and after with answers such as "national bird who is good at starting fires and camping"
What is Bald Eagle Scout? hahahahahaha
The hierarchy of the legal profession is “illegitimate (it is neither necessary nor in accord with any kind of merit) and it is also sick. Many of the badges of top status are things people should shun rather than embrace, such as isolation from egalitarian contact with people of other social classes than one’s own, extreme specialization, having people to treat like slaves, and conspicuous consumption. Many of the attributes of top work that are supposed to make it top are mythical: it is often more mechanical, less creative, less socially valuable and less fun than the work done on the next rung down the ladder . . ..
“Top firms deal with the managers of large corporations. They engage with them on the basis of an implicit deal: the lawyers accept, even participate enthusiastically in the self-interested, or immoral, or downright criminal behavior of the client, in return for client acquiescence in the charging of ludicrous fees for work that is mainly elementary or mindless, and vastly swollen by conventions of over-research and over-writing.”
-- Prof. Duncan Kennedy
Guys in my high school used to revel in their own superiority over AU law students all the time, it was no big deal.
- FRAT STUD
90, what are you talking about? The public university system in pennsylvania has two law schools: 1. Carlisle 2. Philly. Together they are called the UPenn St system. My understanding is that it used to be only one, until the campus in Carlisle was acquired a few years ago.
AU WCL is a great school! I'm a 1L and my profs are great, really enlightening me about the deep truths of the law. I'm sure I will be able to get a great job, so f off h8ters!
91--
leave it to a law professor to criticize the real world he has never been a part of.
In my mind's eye, the event at this firm looked something like this (NSFW!):
http://promo.karenloveskate.com/girlsofsummer/003.jpg
@ 5 -- my dick barfed all over the inside of my Brooks Brothers pants when I read this.
96, those are Cravath summer associates. As if there was any doubt.
Why does everyone care so much about stupid AU? I want to hear more about the hot lesbians and where to find pictures of them.
Neutral instructions to lesbian sleuthing:
1. Find firm web page and locate edited summer associates page (names of the parties redacted)
2. ID unique and key terms
3. Go to GOOGLE
4. GOOGLE aforesaid terms
5. Get the GOOGLE cached page
6. Reference the actual page, and via process of elimination, obtain the 2 names
Happy Hunting!
Guys in my high school used to get drunk and make out with each other all the time, it was no big deal.
OK, so the firm took down the picture of the summer associate class, but you can still see the picture from the Segway Tour (what the fuck, btw?). Not a single girl in that picture is "hot." There may be one that is "environmentally hot"--she's hot in relation to all the ugly ass lawyers out there. Think about all the girls in your law school and you could count on 1 hand how many of them are truly hot outside of the law school. But, to the guys in law school, those girls are still out of their league, so they are considered hot.
I don't even get a thanks?
::mutters::
typical legacy admits
LXXVII: maxima defectio!
cum scripsisti “ad hominem”, decorus eras. sed cum scripsisti “ad alma mater”, maximam defectionem faciebas. verbis “ad almam matrem” scribendae sunt.
stulte irrumator!
LOL at 91, quoting Duncan Kennedy as if he has the slightest grasp of reality.
There's a reason communists stick to academia.
Bonk on, losers.
102: A legit 30 in each class. UVa. Score Cavs Score.
9:58(1), clever use of a passive construction to conceal the reality here. You wrote:
"Two people have had their pospects [sic] killed."
It should be rephrased in a more active way:
"Two people killed their prospects, by conducting themselves in an unprofessional manner and getting fired."
American University - isn't that the school run by the CIA that trains latin american guerillas to overthrow the regimes of their home countries? If so, I HAVE heard of it.
Subtle University of Phoenix trolling...
These women should find themselves a good plaintiffs' lawyer and sue the firm for wrongful termination, discrimination, etc.
They would never win if the case went to trial, but it would never get that far. The firm would quietly settle, for much more than the plaintiffs would have earned for the whole summer.
Well said, CV. ad almam matrem est. es magister et ego sum discipulo.
valete,
LXXVII
utbe, inne igpe atinle i ouldke wnpe ouye
Fake lesbian exhibitionism is totally homophobic. I question whether the firm didn't have bad motives (either sexist or homophobic), but I think that straight girls pretending to be lesbians for fun or attention is patently offensive. I'm a lesbian lawyer working at a firm in Minneapolis. If two girls at my firm did the same thing, I'd want to see them canned.
Other things that are offensive: that Katy Perry song, that OC episode, all your boner/carpet muncher comments. Sorry to rant like an angry lesbian, but I guess on this occasion, I am.
Angry lesbians = TTT
Guys at my high school used to be angry lesbians. It was no big deal.
This will surprise some, but I disagree with the firm's decision. There are two different reasons why females sometimes engage in this kind of conduct with other females (rather than with men): (1) they want to turn on/excite men, or (2) they want to make a political statement against sexism, racism, capitalism, patriarchy, etc. It is a sad state of affairs and double standard that the ridiculously politically correct professional environment of most law firms glorifies the later while punishing the former (as is the case here).
Fed Soc
Dear Angry Lesbian,
The Katy Perry song and/or this story are the best thing to have ever happened to me!
/s/ Hetero male
Angry lesbian #114 (doubtlessly a #2 from my #117 post above) said: "Fake lesbian exhibitionism is totally homophobic."
I have to say, WOW. I have long thought that the term "homophobic" was not applicable when used to refer to people who disapprove of homosexuality, since disapproval has nothing to do with fear. Still, never would have I thought that someone would use the term "homophobic" to refer to people who actually engage in homosexual conduct (albeit for a purpose different from (but not oppose to) promoting the homosexual agenda). WOW.
Fed Soc
Give it up for the original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SclQZ4W2VZ0
umm, they ARE in a pic, next to each other, ON THE FIRM'S WEBSITE... ride scooters much?
Over 450 comments in less than 12 hours between the two posts.... wow.
Two things seem relevant to say that may not have been previously stated.
1. 9:42 that thinks ATL has a risk of being sued over these type of comments: I hope you enjoyed your time at AU because it clearly did not lead to a strong knowledge of the law or even basic reading proficiency.
2. No one will remember these women when they apply for jobs. I looked their names up and already forgot, I don't understand why people think that someone making hiring decisions would (a) read ATL so carefully or (b) care.
"I think that straight girls pretending to be lesbians for fun or attention is patently offensive."
I completely agree.
The outrage over this firing is misplaced. All you have to offer as a SA is your judgment. That's it. The firm knows absolutely nothing about you beyond your 1L grades and your interview. They probably made a complete display of themselves at this event - I'm sure it wasn't some chaste kiss in a corner. That showed terrible judgment.
I blame Katy Perry. Seriously: http://justmarvy.blogspot.com/2008/07/ive-kissed-girl-and-i-liked-it-wait.html
This is just the greatest story of all-time. One question though: What is Minn.? Is that a state? If so, is it within the continental US?
I would say only 50% of the sapphic-fest is "quite attractive." The other participant? In the words of Hugh Grant's Prime Minister character from 'Love Actually,' "Eh, would we call her [attractive]?"
Am I the only tard who can't figure out how to search these girls and the firm's old pics?
Prudes.
Don't they know?:
girls kissing < lesbian analingus < firing offense
127, you'd make a great Magnum PI. Go hire Higgins, perhaps he can help you out.
Last summer I -- along with everyone else in the summer program, practicing associates and partners included -- had the pleasure of watching two SAs make out with each other at multiple firm-sponsored events. I also saw a married partner try to take home (or to a hotel, whatever) one of the SAs, and repeatedly witnessed both attorneys and SAs getting shitfaced and engaging in generally inappropriate behavior. Of course, none of the attorneys invovled ever got reprimanded or fired, and all of the SAs involved got offers.
Perhaps my firm is a bit more liberal than most regarding this kind of behavior, but isn't it inevitable at nearly every firm that two SAs will hook up at a firm-related event, or that someone will get a little too drunk and do something stupid or questionable? So the fact that these two girls got fired over a lesbian kiss, whether or not fueled by alcohol, is pretty outrageous. Either the firm is perpetuating a double-standard toward women and promoting a homophobic atmosphere; or their HR and PR people need to be fired, because how could they not realize it would look that way?
Firms: you don't want your SAs to get drunk at firm events and hook up with each other? Stop supplying unlimited free booze and allowing attorneys to encourage excessive drinking. And make it very clear from the beginning what kind of behavior will not be tolerated. I'm all for personal responsibility, and perhaps those girls should've had better judgment. But experience suggests that their behavior wasn't exactly discouraged at the time, and now they have to suffer the consequences of ambiguous (and possibly anti-lesbian?) standards.
It's in Canada, 1:25.
I think they're cute. I may have the wrong Big Ten chick though. That's a pretty common name.
I keep wondering---if they're summer associates, why bother firing them, why not just wait it out and no-offer them? Seems easier than going through the backlash for affirmatively firing people for any reason -- especially considering the circumstances (see, e.g. post 130).
94 -
Avril Lavigne goes to AU law?
93 is exactly right. upenn used to be ivy league before it was consolidated with penn st. now it doesn't do as well in the rankings and is somewhat mediocre. U penn st. does have benefits though - like its super-cheap tuition and the fact a part of it used to be prestigious. i guess there's something for everyone.
AU = Fordham of DC
What's a cache? Is that like a Kash?
As a current AU student, I'm not surprised at the plethora of idiots coming out of the woodwork in an attempt to defend the school. Each desperate post only serves to perpetuate the school's TTT image. I guess some are simply unwilling to admit that they weren't able to get into a better school. I was rejected by GULC. I got over it. I did well and landed in biglaw.
AU is only the first choice of people who want to represent Guantanamo detainees.
Give AU some credit, NOTHING is as bad as Fordham. Calling Fordham a law school is like calling that place I go to in China town a "Massage Clinic." Sure, that's what's painted on the door, but everyone knows better.
AU = BC of Boston
I know you guys are just trying to bait me, but Penn and Penn St. are NOT the same school. Big difference between Ivy and Big Ten, folks. Please don't confuse us with the poors of Penn St.
- Penn 2L
Minnsesota:states::AU:law schools
#130
Could you please provide the name of your firm so I don't skip them during OCI's? Thanks.
#141--I'm confused. Why did Joe Paterno send me a recruiting letter about your law school?
Days Inn : Hotels
::
AU : Law Schools
"Stop supplying unlimited free booze and allowing attorneys to encourage excessive drinking. "
I can imagine the ATL backlash if a firm did that.
Part of being an adult is controlling yourself. You should know when to stop drinking before you embarrass yourself. Didn't everybody learn that in college, anyway?
9:56
Yea, everybody learned that in college. Some forget that lesson as soon as the words "open bar" are used.
114
lots of normal girls are bi - deal with it
the hotter the girl, more likely bi in my experience
The free booze is a great way of detecting douchbags, people with horrid judgment, and people who have been successfully concealing a substance abuse problem.
If you can't drink socially without being one of the three, you have issues and probably are not well suited to practice.
148 - Correction. The more likely bi, the hotter the girl.
8: grow a pair!
114 - " Fake lesbian exhibitionism is totally homophobic." I think you are confusing "homophobic" with "erotic." If not, you are an idiot. Not everything that does not jive with your personal lesbian politics is "homophobic." A "phobia" is defined as an intense, unrealistic fear. How do you get that from two girls kissing? Just because they don't want to marry your angry lesbian ass? Like I said, your comment is idiotic.
kiss of death
149 -- agreed.
In vino veritas (“There is truth in wine.”)
50 - "I graduated their a while back, and perhaps stuff has changed since the early 90's, but I doubt it."
I doubt it too. To the contrary, I am fairly certain that the writing of their current students is as shockingly poor as yours. For example, just like you, many of them probably do not know the difference between "their" and "there," lack proper pronouns, and use phrases such as "stuff has changed."
30 - "I graduated their a while back, and perhaps stuff has changed since the early 90's, but I doubt it."
I doubt it too. To the contrary, I am fairly certain that the writing of their current students is as shockingly poor as yours. For example, just like you, many of them probably do not know the difference between "their" and "there," lack proper pronouns, and use phrases such as "stuff has changed."
Again, all of this is meaningless without pictures.
42: Congratulations. None of those schools are within 2 hours of DC, except maybe Richmond and UVA, and to do those in 2 hours, you'd have to do it in no traffic, which rarely happens.
108: Yeah, but the undergrads are still much hotter and much dumber.
seriously ... PICTURES !!!
TO SUE OR NOT TO SUE, THAT IS THE QUESTION
I find it incredible if the firm is claiming that there were independent grounds to fire both of these two women apart from kissing each other. Too coincidental. (Not that the firm is not scrambling to build such a case now that it may be dawning on the geniuses who decided on immediate termination right after the girl-girl kiss instead of lesser sanctions—e.g., banning from social events or no offer—that they might get sued for discrimination.)
Query: Since there was no guarantee of a permanent offer to begin with, even if the women sued and won, what would their damages be? The balance of their salary for the rest of the summer? Are emotional and/or reputation damages recoverable in MN as a component of a wrongful termination case?
Second, if they did sue the firm they summered with, wouldn’t that chill their employment prospects with other firms?
Third, wouldn’t they have to sue in MN?
How do you employment law associates analyze this case? Sue or not sue?
My instinct would be to let things die down and forget it happened.
Hard to explain that whole in the resume or why you did not summer though.
girls who are "bi" are usually either influenced by brainwashing or just trying desperately to live up to some pornographic standard to get more male attention ("oh yeah, Jeff, I used to have a girl friend. want to see the pictures back at my place?")
158 (10:49)
Have you ever driven to any of the virginia schools? Richmond (the city) is about 90 miles from DC (edge to edge) and at at most 110 (center to center), and unless you are driving during rush hour or you drive like an old lady, you can make it to the western suburbs (where URichmond is) in less than an hour and half. Charlottesville is closer to DC as the crow flies, but Williamsburg is closer if you take the interstates (95 to 64) and if you have decent driving conditions, both UVA and W&M can be done pretty easily in exaclty 2 hours.
So two male attorneys who "have done worse" did what with each other while drunk at a firm event? I take that back, I don't want to know.
As far as I am concerned, as a partner, if a SA cannot hold his or her liquor at a firm event, it is very telling of what the future holds. SAs are essentially on a summer interview and should act that way. Get drunk all you want, but show you can handle it. Imagine that all you need to do not to get an offer is piss off one partner, and act accordingly. If you can't act accordingly, then piss off.
Had Lindquist & Vennum followed the "Cravath System," this type of thing never would have happened.
162 can't just drive 55.
141, you are right about the Ivy vs. Big ten thing. Too bad Pennsylvania lost the Ivy status when carlisle was absorbed. Now they are both nominally Big ten schools, although we all think of the Philly campus first because of JoPa.
162/10:57-
I'm from DC and am working on my second UVA degree. So yeah, I've driven it just a couple times. Maybe it's just the times of day I drive a lot of time, but I have a lot of trouble making it in under about 2:15 even in fairly good conditions. It's not really worth going that fast given the absurd number of cops on 29 (I keep it under 70). It's easily doable in 2 hrs from the Fairfax suburbs, but not from the city center or Arlington. As for Richmond, I've never done it under 2 hrs, but that's probably because where I live forces me to take a pretty weird (and often congested route) to 95. I was assuming center to center, normal traffic.
As for W&M, I've only done it from DC once, a long time ago. But it took 2.5 then, and all my friends who went there generally say 2:15-2:30, so I'll trust them.
I do not think these girls are composed of "Cravath Material"
Wow. I suck at editing. "Times of day I drive a lot of time" = "times of day I drive a lot of the time," and that's still a nice grammatical train wreck.
-11:07 again
"Homophobia" is a catchall term for bias based on sexual orientation. Not all sexist behavior is misogynist (or misandrist). Not everyone who degrades women does so out of hate or fear. Ditto homophobia.
I see the lesbian lawyer's point. If I were a gay woman in corporate law, I'd be really pissed off if a bunch of straight summer associates turned same sex PDAs into a party game for the amusement of straight men. It's disrespectful.
If you can understand why it's racist for a white person to put on blackface to crack up their white friends, you can understand why it's homophobic for a bunch of straight people to play at being gay.
The rumor is that these girls are straight, but we don't know for sure. I don't think speculations about their "true" orientation should matter in terms of their job prospects. Making out at a company party is unprofessional, but I don't think it ought to be a firing offense--regardless of the genders involved.
It's not like these two were making out in court.
I'd certainly think twice about hiring either of them, but firing in the middle of the summer seems drastic for such a harmless indiscretion.
Andruw Jones likes this blog post
162 (10:57) here again:
Well I'll defer to your greater expertise on UVA as I traveled more often to Richmond and Williamsburg when I lived in DC, but my only point is that it was unfair to criticize everything the earlier commenter unless we are going to be very pedantic about the definition of "2 hours from DC." George Mason, at certain times, can be more than 2 hours from the center of DC. Assuming average conditions (i.e., no accidents or rush hour traffic), Richmond is definitely within 2 hours of most of DC. If you are in the southern part of DC, with decent access to the beltway, W&M is easily within 2 hours of DC. UVA doesn't have great routes that combine directness and high speed limits, but it's very close to the 2 hour line. I do agree that neither W&L nor Regent is arguably within 2 hours of DC.
I am ashamed to admit that, like at least 90 percent of the male readers of ATL, I only keep reading these posts to find some helpful hints on trying to locate a pic of the supposed "hot" member of the sapphic pair (we have all found the pic of the "other" one).
Check out this site on the incident and the Above the Law comments. Seems that the lesbos over at 2 Lesbos Goin At It know the source of the problem at Lindquist:
http://2lesbosgoinatit.wordpress.com/
173 - Really? I thought we were all coming back to figure out the average driving time between DC and nearby law schools.
11:30/ lots of other numbers
Point taken. I guess I just haven't lived in the right part of the area for a 2 hr W&M drive. I took the original post to refer to DC proper, not the suburbs, which obviously matters, at some DC suburbs are an easy 2 hrs to Richmond, and some aren't.
Wait, are we actually reaching an agreement on an ATL comment exchange? Aren't we supposed to be yelling at each other like a couple of 6-year-olds, you poopy-butt snot-face. Oh, and so we get the AutoAdmit toddlers covered, you're a TTT n00b WGWAG, HTH.
11:07
105. Thank goodness someone has the balls to stand up to the abuse of the Latin Language.
Wait, no. You're a total dork.
169 slept through LRW
11:39
Shocking, huh? I suppose that comes from the manners we were taught in our Southern schools :) Here's my contribution:
Guys at my high school used to have hair-splitting arguments about driving distances from DC, it was no big deal.
i need names - or at least the year they graduated and/or the law school they attended!
can't we get some names or at least the year they graduated and/or the law school they attended!
can't we get some names or at least the year they graduated and/or the law school they attended!
170 - ""Homophobia" is a catchall term for bias based on sexual orientation." Says who? I thought the term for that was "discrimination?"
And, where is the bias? These were twenty-somethings drinking at a bar, after (i.e., not at) a firm event. Maybe the girls were just having fun? Are you seriously offended because you think the girls kissing "didn't mean it" enough? Or because some straight guys like lesbians? WTF is wrong with you people? Why does everything have to turn into a cause, judgment, or indictment? Bottom line: if this behavior upsets you, you are a miserable loser.
Also, your analogy does not work. People do not do blackface because of positive feelings for black people.
Is that KASH and SEN kissing in the picture?
183: Because it sucks to have straight versions of your real-life relationships put forth as a circus sideshow for dudes to get off on when there's still plenty of homophobia out there. I wouldn't call it "homophobic", but it's grating.
180-82: If you still don't know how to find them yourself, you're too dumb to live.
180, 181, and 182--- the post itself, and numerous comments, have given repeated and detailed instructions on how to use the internet to obtain the girls' names. If you cannot figure that part out, then you are not very bright or are simply lazy. The more difficult task, as others have mentioned, is to locate pics of the women in question. We have all found the same pic of the "Ivy" girl- we now just "need" (or want) to find the Big 10 pic, who is supposedly the cuter of the two.
two dudes started making out at one of our firm events, and we had them arrested.
168, good point about them not being craveth material. If they had been craveth material, one of them would have bent the other over with a strap-on.
168, good point about them not being craveth material. If they had been craveth material, the one from the higher ranked school would have bent the other over with a strap-on
12:43 - All the time? It was no big deal?
185- Two girls making out in a bar is probably about as representatitve of your real relationships as a guy and a girl making out in a bar are representative of mine. Chill out.
I know you don't want it to be looked at like a "sidesshow" and are concerned about real homophobia, but the girls that kissed and the dudes "getting off on it" (which I am not sure even existed - the story is about girls making out, not a ring of guys around them thowing money at them in between changing the videotapes) aren't responsible for either. The people on this page who are all up in arms and the people who fired them are.
damn i guess i am too dumb to live
One of these girls is nasty! Kinda looks like a horse - no wonder they got upset and fired her. She shouldve been fired just for being ugly!
damn i guess i am too dumb to live or....am I too smart to read some of the b.s. YOU probably wrote
One of these girls is nasty! Kinda looks like a horse - no wonder they got upset and fired her. She shouldve been fired just for being ugly!
These girls are hot, but they're way to old for me.
Sincerely,
Creepy Pedophile Cravath attorney
These girls are hot, but they're way too old for me.
Sincerely,
Creepy Pedophile Cravath attorney
I guess ppl here have low standards. If she's hot, then I guess I date supermodels
When male summers drink excessively it's a bonding experience or their talent to consume large quantities of alcohol is praised. Male summers can get drunk and crash golf carts, make out with female summers, order $500 bottles of wine, sleep their hangover away under their desk until noon, etc. and still get offers. What a double standard.
200 - I'm not so sure that is a double standard. If male summers made out with eachother at a firm event, they may risk getting no-offered
172 - Just to be clear, you actually felt it necessary to use the word "pedantic" in your posting?
Wow, you horny lawyers sure are sending us a lot of traffic at http://2lesbosgoinatit.wordpress.com ! Thought I'd come over here to see what all the fuss is about.
Okay - I'm a lesbian. What is offensive about 2 straight girls kissing?
Answer: 1 too many straight girls.
Straight girls should be prohibited by law from kissing any female who isn't a lesbian. Would one of you boys or girls work on that for us fun lesbos?
And, angry lesbian . . . go to the gym, put on some makeup, a pretty dress and go to the stylist - then straight girls will want you and you'll think this story and the comments are much funnier. And, you'll be happy lesbian. Winky Winky doll :)
Love and kisses,
One Lesbo
http://2lesbosgoinatit.wordpress.com/
The firm has responded:
http://abovethelaw.com/2008/07/the_sapphic_summers_lindquist.php
So what we can all agree on is that Lindquist & Vennum is prejudice against gay men and lesbian women.
No - I don't agree that Lindquist and Vennum is prejudice(d) against us homos. I have no idea. 2 straight women got fired. I don' t see that relevant to my cute little homo rear.
why do peoples keep knocking on american university's law school? i go to the school and think its really good. i wouldnt go to gw or catholic or gulc if u pay me!
Hi 7:42 PM,
I think the reason AU's reputation is so poor is related to three things: (1) according to U.S. News and World Report, AU is the lowest ranking law school on the east coast; (2) according to the ABA's Standing Committee on Law School Accredidation, as of February 2008, AU's accrediation has been suspended; and (3) according to most commenters on this site, no AU student would accept a slot at AU if he/she also was accepted to GULC, GW, Catholic, Maryland, Baltimore, GMU, UDC, Howard, or any other area-school.
Sincerely,
Concerned AU alumni
AU is bad because its students are retarded.
7:42 pm. Please see comment at 8:02 pm. That should explain everything.
Sincerely,
Elitist with a "HYS" Pedigree
Dear ATL Readers,
I would have gone to GULC, GW, UMD, Mason, Catholic, Baltimore, Howard, UVA, Regent, or even UDC if any of them would have admitted me.
Sincerely,
Dean Claudio Grossman
If you want to avoid creeps like 41, avoid Chicago in DC
If you want to avoid creeps like 9, avoid Chicago in DC
If 2 straight girls made out at a firm event after being warned about excessive drinking they had to be pretty plastered, so deserve what they got. But what was the firm thinking, in this day and age, in firing them rather than quietly not extending them offers. Was the firm that concerned with liability from a dui collision?