The Sapphic Summers: A Shout-Out from the Minnesota Lawyer
The scandal over The Kiss — the faux-lesbian smooch between two female summer associates at Lindquist & Vennum that led to their being fired — continues to reverberate throughout the blogosphere. It has even been picked up by the Minnesota Lawyer Blog, the blog of the Minnesota Lawyer print publication. After sketching out the allegations, editor Mark Cohen writes:
Without more information, it’s difficult to know what to make of this. We’ll see if the firm has anything it wants to add to what has been reported (and, if so, pass it on to you). I don’t want to make too light of the whole thing, as it is obviously no laughing matter to the two law students involved (and please, please, please refrain from posting anything that contains any identifying information). In any event, try as I may, I can’t get the refrain from “As time goes by” out of my head — You must remember this: A kiss is just a kiss.
Some readers criticize Cohen — who, after all, is a real journalist (we expressly disclaim that title, at least with respect to our ATL work) — for covering the story. In his defense, he writes:
[T]he question at [this] point becomes is there any value for our blog readers in repeating this watercooler-story as an anecdote sans any identifying information about the associates involved.I think there is some value for our younger readers who might be first or second year associates. With all the boat cruises, clam bakes and whatnots, it can be easy to forget at times that what you are essentially on is a summer-long job audition. You should behave as such at any firm function — sanctioned or unsactioned. You can certainly argue whether termination was the appropriate sanction for what happened, but it doesn’t appear that everything that happened would have happened if one kept in mind this was a job interview.
We concur. As we wrote in our original post:
Covering the misadventures of summer associates is valuable. When the summer associate is in the wrong, the story is a cautionary tale that educates future summers about what NOT to do. When the firm is in the wrong, the story raises red flags for law students thinking about working for that firm. Either way, additional information is empowering.
In terms of the story itself, as opposed to meta-coverage, we’ve heard some interesting things through the grapevine and are working on an update (which we expect to post in the afternoon). It seems there may have been additional lasciviousness at Lindquist & Vennum. Who knew midwesterners were so randy?
If you have information you’d like to pass along, please email us (subject line: “Lindquist and Vennum Summer Associate Scandal”). Thanks.
The kiss of death? [Minnesota Lawyer Blog]
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Not to brag, but... FIRST!
SECOND!
Can we get a new pic? Maybe from the pool scene in Wild Things? This one is sadly getting old.
Bring me Solo and the Wookie. They will pay for this outrage.
I just signed in to iTunes and noticed that the top song is "I Kissed a Girl" by Katy Perry. The reach of the scandal is staggering
This post reminds me of all the Jon Stewart bits where he makes fun of the MSM for reporting on stories about itself. They usually start with "People will speculate..." and then they proceed to speculate.
Lat, it's only a story because you made it one. Who cares?
Oh, and I agree, if you're going to keep updating the story, at least get a better lesbian picture than one with Frances McDormand for godsakes. Not that I object to Kate Beckinsale...but I digress.
If there's ground for criticism of Cohen it's that he got the damn song lyric wrong. A kiss is *still* a kiss, not just a kiss.
Concur with #3 re: need for a new girl-on-girl pic. This one has sadly lost its effect.
7 is an idiot. Cohen got the lyric correct. Someone wasn't paying attention during Casablanca. Fundamentals, people.
Over it unless there is actually new information.
3 - ask and ye shall get!!!
8--
Apparently you're right. I could have sworn it was "still a kiss." Oh well.
--7
Simpson just raised all offices to 210 uncompressed!!!!!!
And ponies for all first-years, 12?
that picture is going to get me fired
Shouldn't the second quote refer to "first and second year law students," not "associates"?
6 I think your point is contradicted by other "real" journalists picking this up. They're not reporting it b/c ATL reported it, they're reporting the story based on its own merits. Just b/c you don't like the idea of reporting ignominious firings doesn't mean it isn't newsworthy considering the readership of this blog.
I fully agree with Lat that this has value to younger law students with big hopes of a summer camp associate positions.
But to squeeze out 4 updates out of this thing is ridiculous. This should have been one story and then we move on.
Andruw Jones likes this story and wants more pictures, or possibly an invitation to join in.
Are you kidding? This is totally deserving of 4 updates...there are over 500 comments on this story on ATL...Lat is just responding to demand. I mean...it's way more amusing than anything going on at work today. This is a "legal tabloid", I expect at least 6 more posting about this story.
A kiss is not a contract.
But it's very nice.
I LOVE THAT PICTURE! I always assumed you were gay Lat, but now I am starting to doubt myself.
Now we're talking!
IN DEFENSE OF SA POSTS:
As far as SA tales go (at least during the time ALT has been writing them up) the Lesbian Kiss post is in the top three, including the famous Jonas Blank email sent while Jonas was a Skadden summer to his friend, but mistakenly copied to 40 attorneys at the firm, that included the now classic phrase “I’m busy doing jack shit,” forwarded to so many email inboxes that it found its way to the The New Yorker.)
Summer Associates are the chosen (small t, small c) who have (almost) made it to the banquet. They just need to (in Jonas Blank’s now famous words) “not be a fuckup.”
But there are distractions along the way that would have tempted Ulysses: Sirens, Crystal, free flowing hard liquor, and a deceiving casual (and at times party) atmosphere that camouflages the whole experience as more of a bacchanal than what it is: A job interview.
It takes a lot for a SA to “fuckup”, but when they do, dispite all of the warnings and cautionary tales posted here and everywhere, well, that’s entertainment.
[Jonas Blank links]
http://abovethelaw.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=12&search=I%27m+busy+doing+jack+shit.+
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/06/30/030630ta_talk_mcgrath
http://skaddeninsider.blogspot.com/2007/03/jonas-has-left-building.html
Denise Richards was so damn hot before she had kids. What a tragedy.
Denise Richards was much hotter before she got that annoying show...when that mouth is going, she almost loses her "hotness." Wish I had something to stick in it to shut her up...hmm
If Lat had posted a story about the kiss -- and particularly if it had included enough details about them to make them easily identifiable to their firm and to future colleagues and employers -- and they had been fired as a result of the publicity, then I think it would be appropriate to criticize him. In that case, he clearly would have been manufacturing a scandal.
But the harm to these girls has already been done. They've been fired, and Lat held off on reporting about the entire incident until that was confirmed. And he still maintains a strict policy about not naming them, although apparently some people have been able to locate names and pictures through their own investigations.
So I think he's doing us all a service, one that goes beyond just the idea of a precautionary tale for future summer associates. This is bringing unwanted attention to the firm, for one thing. I *want* firms to know that they are being scrutinized, and that discrimination against lesbians, bisexuals, and gays will be called out and condemned (even if that may not be exactly what happened here given the alcohol-fueled context).
Also, if this gives firms a reason to reevaluate the way they run their summer programs, and the mixed messages they send, all the better. I know adults should be able to remember that it's a professional setting and an extended job interview; but it's hard when you've got a drunk partner asking you why you are so serious, and there's an open bar, and the recruiting coordinator had told you earlier to "show them your personality more so they know that you'll fit in with the practice group," When they want you to walk that fine line, it's inevitable that someone will cross it.
Yes, this is a long comment. But this whole thing really gets under my skin. Lat's monitoring of the firms has helped push up all of our salaries, and makes it more likely that at least overt forms of bias won't be tolerated. As long as he doesn't do it at the expense of any particular individuals -- whether summers, associates, or partners -- I'll continue to support him.
18: I didn't get it until I did some google searching. Nice.
Why is this news? Why so much attention on this? Where is the coverage about a male/female kiss? Homophobia.
Now that we got a hotter picture, can we get a video embed?
26: tl;dr.
Thanks for the new pic. Me like.
-3
19,
If this is such a cut throat legal tabloid, Lat needs to stop holding back. If we are going to dish out the dirt, lets do that. But if the site is going to purport to being a tabloid yet provide us with 4 stories that are exactly the same I think its a shame.
Either make this a tabloid which reports on all the gossip going on and is by its nature a little outrageous, or make this a worthy legal world news site. Its the being in the middle that infuriates some of us readers. However, I will concede that this does provide a nice break from work.
- 17, thanks for listening to my rumbling.
No, 28. Homophilia.
Very good points Lat.
The real point is that when girls gets fired for some action at a drunky firm event, everybody loses...and the terrorists win.
Good old boy clients like firms with a little sex appeal, even in the midwest.
What I can't understand is why is this type of behavior not encouraged??? I mean, two cute summers KISSED and people saw it!!!! That should be enough for immediate promotion to partner. Hell, women shouldn't even have to take the bar exam if they're willing to make out with each other in front of the other exam takers. Just pass them and send everyone the video. Jesus people, get a grip.
28 -- Not "phobia." But homosexuality is definitely "abnormal" -- maybe 4 or 5% of the population exhibits the tendency. Most of the other 95 or 96% is perfectly tolerant of homosexuality and doesn't "fear" it, as the word "phobia" would imply. But at the same time, many tolerant people are nevertheless discomforted by such public displays because as something abnormal, it is simply unpalatable to us (in other words: GROSS). I don't have any phobia of people in African or Asian countries who eat hissing cockroaches as a delicacy, but I still think it's disgusting and I wouldn't want my kids doing it. Same thing with homosexuality. Everyone's free to make their own choices in life, but nobody has a right to expect others to embrace or agree with those choices. This self-righteous imposition is the fallacy of alleged "homophobia."
It's true that these girls probably wouldn't have been fired if it was an innocent heterosexual kiss (although if it was slovenly and drunken enough, maybe so). The point is that summer associates are on a 3 month interview, and the only thing they're looking for is your ability to exercise discretion and somewhat decent judgment. A drunken sorostitute-style lesbo makeout is the antithesis of that.
Lat, as one gay man to another, please stop with the hag-on-hag imagery, 2 boobs are bad enough.
I am eagerly awaiting the law firm's comment on this- I know anyone on full-on make out mode deserves to be fired, but hee hee: http://justmarvy.blogspot.com/2008/07/ive-kissed-girl-and-i-liked-it-wait.html
This pic has made my Friday happy. Thanks, Lat.
36 from 28 -- you just proved my point. Yes, you are homophobic!
Wikipedia agrees with Cohen and number 8. However, there remains much support for the other side:
http://www.cyberblanca.com/lyrics.htm
http://www.lyrics007.com/Frank%20Sinatra%20Lyrics/As%20Time%20Goes%20By%20Lyrics.html
http://www.metrolyrics.com/as-time-goes-by-lyrics-frank-sinatra.html
Also, this part of Cohen's post didn't make sense: "I think there is some value for our younger readers who might be first or second year associates. With all the boat cruises, clam bakes and whatnots, it can be easy to forget at times that what you are essentially on is a summer-long job audition." Surely, he must mean "who might be first or second year law students." Because the summer associate program...is not so much a job audition for people who already work there.
If I was one of the dudes in that SA class, I would be hella pissed that those bitches were fired. Law firms need to be a lot more fun.
WE NEED PICS. Someone must have a pic.
36 - that was the worst self-justification rant I have ever heard. Your intolerance is just despicable.
Someone needs to photoshop Nancy Vollertsen of Lindquist into the Wild Things picture, or into any picture that would make it lesbianic. Now THAT is an ATL contest.
Please post on a public service and copy the link onto this page.
Just sayin'
43 - I hope you're just sarcastically emphasizing the irony pointed out by 36, but it's hard to tell. If not, I think you've completely made his point.
haha 45 pwned 43.
Didn't the Minnesota based Violent Femmes have a song, "Kiss Off?"
40 -- No, the people who killed Matthew Sheppard were homophobic. Let me draw it out for you:
2,000 B.C. - about 1970 A.D. : Society to gays: "Your behavior is immoral and unacceptable. We will suppress it."
1970: Gays to society: "Stop actively suppressing and punishing us! We have every right to hold anti-majoritarian beliefs and act on them without persecution!"
1995: Society to gays: "You're right. We should probably stop punishing and persecuting you."
Present day:
Gays to society: "You all must embrace our choice and affirmatively acknowledge that it's GRRRRRREAT! Say it! Say 'It's GREAT!'"
The sheep of society : "Umm.... OK, homosexuality is fucking AWESOME."
The iconoclast: "Wait a minute, I don't really think I want to be *supporting* something I disagree with."
Gays to iconoclast: "Homophobe!! Homophobe!! Despicable!!"
Do you see the irony here?
Drunken sorostitute-style lesbo makeouts to 190!
My favorite version of the story is at Word Press "Lesbo Lip Lock Licks Lawyers’ Livelihoods"
. . .
"Anyway . . . here is what caught my eye. A caring comment on www.abovethelaw.com from a big city law firm partner reaching out to the girls in concern for their futures.
Dear Carpet-Munching Chicks Who Were Shit-Canned From Lindquist & Vennum:
I am the hiring partner at a major firm in D.C. If you appy to my firm, as a pair, and if you include photos of the two of you locking lips, and if you are hot, I will hire you at much more than Lindquist & Vennum ever could have paid you. And I will lobby to get you a signing bonus.
Question to lesbo ladies — are either of you into 41 year old married men with salt/pepper hair and a beer belly? If so, apply to all the big firms in D.C. (I repeat, as a pair) and I’ll do what I can to get you hired. No joke.
“Harold,” Big-Law Hiring Partner
Finally, Lindquist & Vennum might want to consider the firm’s own public conduct if they want to attract a different brand of associate. No wonder they had a couple of lesbo summer associates:
[SEE PHOTO at 2 lesbos goin at it over at Word Press]
Lindquist Lesbo Magnets - Softball Champs"
What I still can't understand is why isn't this behavior ENCOURAGED????? Can someone back me up on this please? Random hot chicks (or even relatively cute chicks) getting drunk and hooking up with each other is the stuff of LEGEND. Stuffy law firm or not, LEGEND I say.
51 -- It's the stuff of legend at a frat house, and the differences between a frat house and a corporate law firm were exactly the problem for these girls. They'd have been no better off flashing their tits for beads or starting an impromptu game of flip cup at this event.
47 -- The Violent Femmes indeed have a song named "Kiss Off," but they are from Wisconsin. The Replacements were from Minnesota and they had a song named "Kiss Me on the Bus." There was a band named Kiss, but they were from New York.
I have no idea what any of this has to do with anything.
48- I'm confused about your timeline of history, it doesn't even seem to reflect western civilization.
You've left out any comment on Greek, Chinese, or Japanese civilizations. In fact, those are only the major three civilizations that openly tolerated (and at times celebrated) homosexuality. If you actually delve into smaller cultures, you'll find many more examples.
48- I'm confused about your timeline of history, it doesn't even seem to reflect western civilization.
You've left out any comment on Greek, Chinese, or Japanese civilizations. In fact, those are only the major three civilizations that openly tolerated (and at times celebrated) homosexuality. If you actually delve into smaller cultures, you'll find many more examples.
52 -- Lighten up man. I am telling you right now that these women deserve our praise not our ridicule. I would hire them in a heartbeat. The problem with a corporate law firm as you call it is that everyone takes things too seriously. If I were the hiring partner, I would hire these women and get rid of some of the gay male associates. Much better.
48, while I appreciate your post, the true timeline is more like this:
40 -- No, the people who killed Matthew Sheppard were homophobic. Let me draw it out for you:
???? B.C.E. - about 600 C.E. : Society to gays: "What's "gay"? Oh, have you met Achilles and Patroklos? They throw totally fabulous parties at their house."
600 C.E. - ca.1900 C.E. : Society to gays: "Your conduct is immoral and heinous and if we discover that you are acting on your inclinations we will murder you by inserting a red-hot iron into your anus."
ca. 1900 C.E. - 1968 C.E.: Lesbians secretly get married in Harlem; gays and alternative sexualities of both genders attempt to live quiet, inconspicuous lives.
1968: Gays to society: "F*** OFF ALREADY, leave us alone!"
ca. 1995: Society to gays: "Fine, do whatever you want so long as I never have to see or hear about it." (E.g., parents to son: "we love you and you are still our son, but you will never bring a male lover into this house.")
Present day:
Gays to society: "So when I die, can I leave my worldly possessions to the closest and most dear person in my life, with whom I have lived and grown over the past 45 years? Can we please have children like anyone else? May we visit each other in the hospital? By the way, taupe is totally 2 years ago, you need to spice up this living room with some fabulous throw pillows and accent fixtures."
The sheep of society : "Why can't the damned queers sit down and shut up? I'm going to vote against my personal interests just to deny rights to this other group of people that have little to nothing at all to do with me. Pass the chewing tobacco."
See William Eksridge's article (can't recall the title, something about homosexuality, should be easy to spot) in the Yale Law Review, 1978.
54, you left out Roman, Egyptian, and -- to make an extremely crude generalization -- pre-Columbian North Americans.
In addition to the comment in 50, we also got a shout in the comments at: http://2lesbosgoinatit.wordpress.com
"You horny bored lawyers are so much fun and witty too . Are you from abovethelaw.com? If so, here is a story about the angry lesbo attorney commenting over there:
One day, angry lesbo attorney came home and was greeted by her wife dressed in a very sexy nightie. “Tie me up,” she purred, “And you can do anything you want.”
So she tied her up and went fishing.
Comment by 2lesbosgoinatit | July 24, 2008 | Edit"
In addition to the comment in 50, we also got a shout in the comments at: http://2lesbosgoinatit.wordpress.com
"You horny bored lawyers are so much fun and witty too . Are you from abovethelaw.com? If so, here is a story about the angry lesbo attorney commenting over there:
One day, angry lesbo attorney came home and was greeted by her wife dressed in a very sexy nightie. “Tie me up,” she purred, “And you can do anything you want.”
So she tied her up and went fishing.
Comment by 2lesbosgoinatit | July 24, 2008 | Edit"
48- Also, you've aptly pointed to the key difference in assumptions between your arguments and the LGBT community. You think it's a choice. The LGBT community knows it's not.
Except for that assumption, I think you would agree with the other basic tenet of the LGBT community's argument: society shouldn't discriminate against people for things they can't control.
Who cares about things like "quality of work" and "firm image" when at any moment, the two girls (who would be forced to share an office and drink all day) down the hall might break out into a hardcore makeout sesh!!!
So you have to brutally murder a homosexual to be a homophobe? Thanks for clearing that up, 48.
Whoops, that should be "Eskridge", not "Eksridge".
/s/ 57
" I think you would agree with the other basic tenet of the LGBT community's argument: society shouldn't discriminate against people for things they can't control."
That takes it a little too far, doesn't it? Compulsive murderers can't control their compulsion to murder, but that doesn't mean we should just let them do their thing. There has to be some degree of normative assessment even where immutable personal characteristics are concerned. It's simply that a recent consenus has emerged that being gay isn't the kind of immutable characteristic that society needs to get worked up about.
As a Christian, I can't take your coverage of this lesbian kiss anymore. My kids read this web site. They should not be forced to learn about homosexuality. Discussing two women kissing in un-American and contributes to the degradation and secularization of our society.
31 -- "If we are going to dish out the dirt, lets do that. "
Try AutoAdmit?
Who lets their kids read ATL?
61 -- Your comment exemplifies the most alarming thing about the current societal trends. It's not that most people give a damn whether or not a guy wants to have sex with or live with another man. It's that our kids are being indoctrinated to believe that anything you have a predisposition towards or inherent inclination for is beyond your power to control. It's not just homosexuality. It's obesity; alcoholism; Internet porn addiction; etc. Our society is becoming more and more blameless and irresponsible because the prevailing attitude being espoused on MTV et al is: "If it feels good to you, do it, because you have no power to control who you are!" Now maybe it's not a problem for people with homosexual inclinations to abide by this attitude, but it sure as hell is a problem for alcoholics, the morbidly obese, pedophiles, psychotic serial killers, etc. Nobody's equating homosexuality with these things, but deluding ourselves into believing that anyone of them is "immutable" is the first step onto a very slippery slope.
Homosexuality is no different than any other type of sexuality. A man who prefers other men isn't anymore special than a man who prefers blondes or skinny girls or Asians or little boys or horses. And it is a complete fallacy to justify the gay rights movement - as well intentioned as it has been - on the "immutable" nature of homosexuality. Race, gender, height, and physical disabilities or abilities are immutable characteristics. Urges or compulsions - whether they're towards sex or anything else - are quite mutable characteristics. There are just different justifications for resisting or restraining each of them.
48: The myth that Matthew Shepard was killed because of his homosexuality has been discredited many years ago. His killer admitted after his conviction in a 20/20 interview that money and drugs, not disapproval of homosexual conduct, were the reason for the killing.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Matthew_Shepard
55: The Greeks' tolerance for homosexuality involved relationships between old men and young boys. I suppose you are technically correct in partly rebutting 48's observation, but this is probably not the argument a Leftist would want to make.
Fed Soc
69: Very well, perhaps sexuality is nothing more than an urge or compulsion, but please imagine suppressing your (presumed hetero-) sexuality or practicing another sexual orientation to comply with society's norms. If you were to do so, don't you think one of your better arguments against such norms and compliance therewith was that your behavior did not feel *at all* natural or inherent to your person? Would a compulsive eater feel the same magnitude of discomfort if adhering to a strict diet? a serial killer avoiding murder? a gambler abjuring casinos? a straight guy who prefers, as you say, "Asian" women, having sex with an Italian woman? I suspect not. Rather, I suspect there are a spectrum of urges and compulsions as diverse as the human condition, and to lump them all together as equally resistable ignores the subtlety of that experience. That the straight Asian-fetishist you present would have a much easier time with the non-Asian woman than, say, an Asian man itself suggests that sexuality lies somewhere at the more difficult end of that spectrum.
71 -- "To lump them all together as equally resistable ignores the subtlety of that experience."
I'm 69. I completely agree. But the answer to this shouldn't be telling ourselves that any of them are "immutable" or "beyond our power" to control. As I said, the answer is recognizing that there are different justifications for resisting or controlling any inclination. Society should punish psychotic serial killers and not homosexuals because of the much greater justification for resisting the former's inclinations than the latter's. But it is entirely possible that some extremely deluded killers may have a much harder time resisting their impulse to kill than some who identify as gay would have resisting same sex attractions. That doesn't make their condition any more or less "immutable." It is detrimental to society as a whole to regard any of these sorts of traits/desires as immutable.
Is there anything better than a story about lesbian kissing that uses the word clambake?