Staff Attorney / Discovery Attorney Salaries: Open Thread
A staff attorney reader of ATL once described his position as "either the bluest white-collar job, or the whitest blue-collar job." We found the description quite apt, based on what we know about being a staff attorney.
For those of you who are not familiar with them, staff attorneys perform work similar to contract attorneys -- e.g., document review, document production, other discovery-related tasks -- but, unlike contract attorneys, they are "on staff" at their specific firms (hence the title of staff attorney). They don't have to worry, like contract attorneys, about what their next gig will be, since they are employed directly by their Biglaw shops (i.e., not placed through an agency). Staff attorneys have stable jobs, good benefits, and reasonable hours (at least most of the time; they may have to work overtime if a case is busy).
But there are also disadvantages to being a staff attorney. All that document work can be monotonous, even mind-numbing. Unlike associates, staff attorneys are not on the track towards partnership. They are often the first to be let go during downturns (e.g., at Milbank Tweed; see here and here).
Some staff attorneys claim they are treated like second-class citizens. Back in March, over at the Huffington Post, Yolanda Young -- a former staff attorney at Covington & Burling -- decried what she described as the firm's "staff attorney ghetto," noting the high proportion of minorities among the staff attorney ranks (and the low percentage of minorities among the ranks of partnership-track associates).
If it is a "ghetto," however, it's a rather well-paid one. From one tipster:
I'm a Paul Weiss staff attorney. [ATL] has a loyal following among us.I'd be interested in seeing a post on SA salaries. I wonder how much they differ from firm to firm here in NYC, or in other cities.
I'm sure such a post would get hammered with comments from BigLaw associates. But it would be widely read, and interesting to the growing ranks of the staff attorney underclass.
We're happy to oblige. Here is the requested post.
Find out how much Paul Weiss pays its staff attorneys in New York -- and, if you're a staff attorney at another firm or in another city, dish about how much you make -- after the jump.
Our tipster stated that Paul Weiss staff attorneys start at a salary of $100,000, plus two semi-annual $6,000 bonuses. Things improve with seniority:
Years 1-3: base salary $105K, bonuses $7K
Years 3-5: base salary $110K, bonuses $8K
"No chance of making associate, but after 4 years, SAs can be considered for 'Senior Staff Attorney,' whose salaries are closer to first-year associate salaries [of $160,000]."
As for contracts, PW staff attorneys sign an initial three-month contract, followed by six-month contracts. "One must make an effort NOT to get renewed or NOT to get a the full bonus. The D.C. office staff attorneys are all under three-month contracts."
If you have data points to add about staff / discovery attorney compensation at other firms or in other cities, please provide the information in the comments. Thanks.
Earlier: Covington and Its 'Staff Attorney Ghetto'?
Nationwide Layoff Watch: Milbank Cans Staff Attorneys
Correction: Milbank Didn't Fire All Its Staff Attorneys
(275) Comments
Here is a retarded question - what is the difference between a staff attorney and an associate?
How many hours do PW staff attorneys have to work per week?
Do staff attorneys have billable hour requirements?
Do staff attorneys make more than minimum wage?
Do staff attorneys have a breath of life in their bodies?
Let's just get it over with: TTT
105K+ isn't bad. They seem to do quite well for themselves.
4:07- did you read the post?
staff attorneys (a) are not on partnership track, (b) do shittier work than associates, (c) work fewer hours, (d) get paid less
What's the difference between Of Counsel and a staff attorney?
Got it 4:12, but I guess I didn't ask the question correctly. Why are they staff attorneys and not associates? Less academic creditials?
I don't have any data on staff attorneys but I think this is a great post.
Maybe now we can finally hear from all of the American grads who work in "biglaw."
If you can manage that on 45-50 hrs a week, rock and roll. better than most
ye 4:07 are you retarted, rty reading the post before commenting. and its not like you have the excuse of trying to be 'first' as now your not!
"One must make an effort NOT to get renewed or NOT to get a the full bonus. The D.C. office staff attorneys are all under three-month contracts."
i suspect thats how recently downsized staff attorneys felt until just before they were downsized
4:16: why not try spelling correctly, then try making a comprehensible statement, then submit your post. You arse.
Ha, I get it, #9- because they're all staff attorneys!!
It's funny because it's true.
If Yolanda Young and the rest of her ghetto friends think that she deserves a better, higher-paying job, she should quit and switch to that job. What's the matter, can't even find one job that pays better?
When the best job you can get is a $100k staff attorney position, maybe the market is trying to tell you how much your labor is actually worth, in spite of your tarnished Ivy League law degree earned through affirmative action.
165,000 as a staff attorney, same billables as associates, in a year and a 1/2 will be reviewed for associate position.
Also, when you apply to other firms, nobody has to know you are not an associate.
Wait, I can work normal hours and make 100k/yr fresh out of school with my law degree? Where the hell do I apply - I don't care if it is doc review, I'd MUCH rather do this then work crazy hours at the same firm pulling in 180-200k (incl. bonuses) at the same place.
-current 2L
16: what firm?
17: titcp
16, what firm & what city? Sounds like a good deal.
17, you do realize that for five years your professional skills will develop as much as if you'd spent five years cutting grass, right? And that your skills will not be transferrable to any other job with upward mobility?
Associate life is tough because it's not forever. It leads somewhere- to partnership, to a skilled position in-house, or to a business leadership position. Staff attorney leads nowhere.
wow 9, bitter much?
As a law firm associate, I wouldn't mind "retiring" as a career associate, but going in-house at that point would be the better choice. (If the market picks up a bit.) Career associates get dumped on by everyone, including the paralegals, so beware.
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
Would someone please explain why anyone would apply to be a staff attorney instead of an associate? Is it because they didn't summer there? Didn't have the grades? I don't understand.
"Also, when you apply to other firms, nobody has to know you are not an associate."
Don't you have to write "Staff Attorney" or some other title on your resume instead of "Associate"?
No, I just had to pick a TTT school to hammer. It could just as easily have been Mason, Catholic or Maryland. AU just felt right.
-9
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
16..i find it hard to believe a firm you were applying to transfer to would not not conduct any sort of due diligence and find out you are a staff attorney and not an associate
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
Does anyone know if a major int'l firm is a pretty good arrangement?
Of course, the really amusing thing is that most associates aren't on the partnership track either.
If you hold yourself out as an associate on your resume when you are, in fact, a staff attorney and the target firm finds out about it, kiss any offer you might have had goodbye. Also start preparing a response to a possible ethics commission inquiry. Lying about that stuff is not taken to very kindly by the legal community.
31,
As I understand it, associates have the ability to move in-house.
Staff attorneys have the ability to lie on their resumes about being a staff attorney when applying to othe firms.
Awesome, 31. I'll accept pwnage.
-19
17 = retard. how many comments will you post
Post # 15: Chill out. Most minorities that made it to Ivy actually worked hard for it and if they would have had the opportunities that you did growing up, they would have smoked you and probably gone farther up the legal ladder. Quit with the bigotry.
Anyone getting all envious of staff attorneys ("100K for 45-50 hours of just doc review?! Sign me up!") clearly has never supervised a massive document review project.
These are miserable, soul-draining, mind-numbing projects - you can't help but feel for the reviewers, and thank your lucky stars you're not doing that work for a living. It is - bar none - the most miserable work I can imagine, and an absolute intellectual void. It is really hell on earth for lawyers.
36 - "if they would have had the opportunities that you did growing up, they would have smoked you and probably gone farther up the legal ladder"
you may be overreaching there. honestly, most kids at ivy's didn't grow up poor or disadvantaged, minorities or not.
"Quit with the bigotry." - Agreed.
pretty unnuanced view of post #15 to say there was bigotry. smarten up.
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
So the biglaw market has gone from lockstep associates on track to partner in 8 years to a caste system of contract atty/staff atty/associate/of counsel/salary partner/equity partner, and it now takes 12-15 years to equity and only 10% or so of associates have a realistic shot at that.
The saddest part is that you all are billing 2200+ hours a year as if nothing has changed, so boomer partners who never worked that hard coming up can make a mil a year.
#9 must be a disaffected DC law student, probably GULC without an offer, Howard, UDC, maybe...
4:53 nicely put, just make sure your in that 10%
40 - A bit of advice, then: Live waaaaay below your means (if that's even possible where you live, i.e. not NY or SF).
So what are some of the other DC/NYC staff attorneys from big firms pulling in annually? How many hours per week/year? Do you get paid overtime?
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
Doc review is only bad if you actually review the documents. I usually just figure out about how many documents I should be reviewing in an hour. I spend about 5 minutes skimming that number of docs (usually marking them all irrelevant) and then spend the next 55 minutes on the internet. Repeat 8-10 times and go home.
9 - I would check your rankings, none of those schools are TTT. and I agree with 43.
Some staff attys work just as hard as associates and do the same work. Staff attys typically have to work harder to prove themselves if they want to move up to associate
42-
Some of us are at firms that still have eight years lockstep to partner. It starts to get pretty nerve-wracking after about year five. At least with a two-tier system you can stretch out the gravy train for awhile before you have to figure out what you're going to do with the rest of your career.
If that is true 48, you are committing professional malpractice and would be fired on the spot if I was supervising you.
Current 2L, what are you hoping to switch to in five years? Why can't you do it now, before $30k of extra debt and five years of 2500-billables?
So the biglaw market has gone from lockstep associates on track to partner in 8 years to a caste system of contract atty/staff atty/associate/of counsel/salary partner/equity partner, and it now takes 12-15 years to equity and only 10% or so of associates have a realistic shot at that.
The saddest part is that you all are billing 2200+ hours a year as if nothing has changed, so boomer partners who never worked that hard coming up can make a mil a year.
Exactly correct. Most staff attorneys are in it for the money. They don't have the responsibility/pressure of being an associate and don't desire to be on partnership track anyways. More than a few have been associates, worked in agencies, or had their own solo practices (or still do) on the side. Pay can be directly proportional to how much they work. 2000 in billables can net you about $110k. If you desire it, you can easily make $150k+. That's without having to take any work home, having the managing partner calling your house at 10 o'clock, or generally dealing with any BS. True the work can be mind numbing.
"Staff attys typically have to work harder to prove themselves if they want to move up to associate"
I'm not sure where you work, 50, but I think that most people will agree that this is impossible at almost all big firms.
55: I work at a big firm as a staff atty. Why do you say it's impossible?
Current 2L, I understand your train of thought perfectly. If your school has a joint JD/MBA program (only adds a year) check into that.
56 - let me rephrase, in that case. I've never, ever heard of this happening at any big firm. It seems to be a common myth in TempTown and among staff attorneys on boards like this. Have you ever seen it happen? I'm not saying it doesn't, I've just never heard about it here in DC, that's all.
58: Happened a lot in my firm
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
JD/MBA is worthless if you think that the MBA part is going to redeem your shitty performance in law school. Trust me, I have the JD/MBA and spectacularly shitty resume to prove it.
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
Wait a minute, when did we start referencing others' comments by # rather than by time?
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
OMG! Someone spelled "known" wrong. Unbeleevable
OMG! Someone spelled "known" wrong. Unbeleevable
55, 56: Moving up in nearly all big firms is impossible. Having said that, a few firms have started to use the staff attorney position as a way to screen would be associates. We'll pay you less money than you would make as a first year associate and if we don't like you bye-bye. What's the number cause of all of this....too many attorneys with large amounts of debt.
5:14 - this terrible trend is starting to pick up and i for one do not like it. back to numbers my countrymen
37 -- I agree that the work is mind-numbing and soul-draining, but that job description aptly fits a majority of attorney positions, all the way from contract attorney to associate to partner.
The other point is that while there are some contract attorneys who do it for a "living," I think most do it knowing they don't want to practice law at all, and simply need a paycheck until they know or are able to pursue what will truly make them happy.
True story: I worked as a Skadden legal assistant some years back while in law school. One staff attorney tried to treat me like shit, so I gave him the exact same (dis)respect in return. He then (amazingly) became an associate at another Skadden office and took every opportunity to shit on me from quite a great distance. Anyhow, the move from SA to associate can happen, but I think it is pretty rare (at SASMF at least) and may definitely include a transfer to an office where no one knew your previous SA self.
I know this may come as an absolute shock to some of you spoiled ivy leaguers, but some ppl actually did not go to ivy and have to prove themselves in other ways
I work in King & Spalding's ATL discovery shop. The staff attorneys start out here as temporary "project attorneys", basically an excuse not to give benefits and to pay less. Usually within a year or so, project attorneys move to being permanent staff attorneys, who make roughly the same proportionate to associates as reported above for NYC. 1900 billables required, hourly bonus for anything over 1900.
Yes, it is boring, boring, work, but there are worse things than boring. Why do it? Some can't get associate positions, some no longer want them (or lost them in the real estate/credit mess), some just need something to tide them over until they transition into something else, some need more time with their families. It's decent pay for very non-stressful work, and that works for a lot of people.
61: Well, if you have shitty grades, nothing is going to help you. You're making an incorrect assumption that his/her or anyone else's grades are shitty. If you're speaking for yourself, point taken.
BigLaw in Boston (if there is such a thing)...Staff Attorneys start at $95K, annual bonus range 10K-15K. Minimum billables of 1850. Little to no shot of associate advancement but a "professional track" does exist apparently.
Any other hard numbers out there?
Can some people post salaries and bonuses for other Staff Attorney Programs in NYC?
"Can some people post salaries and bonuses for other Staff Attorney Programs in NYC?"
zomg lolz bonuses
Can anyone tell me if the Milbank discovery attorney program is still referred to internally as 'The House of Payne'?
I'm a (first year) SA in DC, making 105k, 2000 billable hours.
I graduated from a T3 school with mediocre grades so I looked at this as a chance (even if small) to get some Biglaw experience and maybe bump to associate after a year or two.
5:35 - Bonuses?
5:35 - Bonuses?
37: if staff attorney is seriously "bar none" the most miserable work you can imagine, you should Tivo Dirty Jobs and have a little ponder about how the other half lives.
AmLaw Top 30 Firm with starting staff attorney salary of $105k (10-30k bonus depending on billables and performance). 2 "tracks" include some making senior staff attorney in 3-5 years and some who prove themselves valuable to the right partners jumping to associate.
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
97: what firm?
97: what are the targets for bonuses? and what firm?
97: or what city?
79 - T3, really? You must mean Tier 3, not HYS, right? If you went to HYS and could only land a SA position, you must have sh!t the bed as a summer...
Could you tell me about White & Case and Davis Polk & Wardwell. I don’t know which one to choose.
Thank you
(social life , office ,ect).
100 comments (including all the spam from #17 - thanks 'tard!), and still haven't heard from FRAT STUD.
"Guys in my high school" comment in 3... 2...1...
How do you prove yourself valuable and move up doing doc review? The worst part about doc review is that it is piecework where the only way to distinguish oneself is to f--- up. "Wow Bob, you really pointed and clicked that privilege button with style, how'd you like to talk to my client about IP licensing strategies?" The best associates I know are bad at doc review because they overthink every call.
and base salary for those 2 firms as well?
and base salary for those 2 firms as well?
102- Of course they mean Tier 3.
97 - Sounds like DLA Piper.
94 - can i borrow that time machine of your's this weekend? i want to go back and bang britney spears when she was hot.
91, you're right it is difficult. But if you are given broader responsibilities (i.e. research, writing memos...), you're essentially doing the same things as an associate and can distinguish yourself
91, you're right it is difficult. But if you are lucky and given broader responsibilities (i.e. research, writing memos...), you're essentially doing the same things as an associate and can distinguish yourself
Sounds like a boring repetitive office job that pays OK, but goes no where fast. That's where most people are with their careers and they don't get paid 100k+. Could be worse.
Reason #62 to keep the timestamp reference: lat deletes the spam from 17 (thank you) so now all the numbers are off.
Guys in my high school used to be staff attorneys and do document reviews all the time. It was no big deal.
FRAT STUD died. I killed him with VD.
SORORITY SWEETHEART
Being a staff attorney sounds definitely better than the contract document review work I did a few years ago. That paid absolute crap comparatively ($25.00/hr), but the work was easy. If it wasn't for the fact that I actually found a firm that allows me to bill 2100 a year and have a family, I'd definitely look into staff attorney work. Most firms want 2400 hours or so a year to be an associate.
91 - Actually, you'd be surprised. First of all, not every staff attorney position is strictly doc review. Several actually do the same work as first and second year associates: Doc review, leading large scale projects, document collection, interviewing clients (yes, believe or not), contract review and drafting, drafting menial letters (please find enclosed our document production....blah, blahetc, etc.) The title staff attorney can denote many different skill sets, although for the most part the job is purely doc review. What is common is that biglaw firms generally pay staff attorneys less money, but ultimately make more money off of them. 1st and 2nd year associates are generally not worth much to law firms due to the large salaries (in terms of profit) and generally lack skills to make them marketable to clients (past their resume -we only hire Harvard grads). Staff attorney programs are worth millions. You do the math: Staff attorney generally makes $40 an hour plus OT, but firms bill them out at $150+ and nearly all of their time is billable. No amount overhead (barring a lack of work) can make that up that gap.
Gentleman in my prepatory academy used to scoff at the idea of becoming a servile staff attorney, it was no big deal.
- Priviliged Frat Stud
Perhaps due to uniquely pro-employee laws in CA, the staff attorneys in my office are all hourly employees and gets overtime pay when working more than 8 hours per day (that's not billable but 8 hours in the office). Given the number of overtime work required on regular basis, many of them do fairly well in terms of compensation.
$105K for 2000 billables sounds like very shitty pay to me. I know that the pressure is less (though I don't necessarily buy that entirely), but 2000 hours is 2000 hours. I'm sure I'll get blasted by BIGLAW associates saying that 2000 hours is a joke, but I'm at a small firm now (making more than $105K) and won't bill even close to 2000 hours any given year.
Gentleman in MY prepatory academy used to employ servile staff attorneys to do their laundry and clean their rooms, it was no big deal.
--v. privileged Frat Stud
6:39 pm - Again the difference is that almost all of their time is billable. In a given 12 hour day an associate may bill, what 8 hours on average? They're billing 12. Staff attorneys WILL make their 2000 billables, plus some just for showing up at the office. No staying in the office for 12-14 hour days to meet their billable requirement. Additionally for those that get paid hourly (plus bonus and OT) they're going to make a lot more money. So in a year where an associate has "worked" 3000 hours (guessing) but billed 2400 the staff attorney has billed 2800 hours (again slight exaggerations, but you get the point). If a staff attorney bills 3000 hours, they're making at least $160k, not including bonuses. Just looking at billable hour minimums is not going to give you a correct comparison.
Guys in my high school used to complain about the lack of frat stud comments all the time; it was no big deal.
Shook, Hardy & Bacon Staff Attorneys in KC start at 60-80k per year, and get treated like crap. What's funny is that not only does SHB have more non-equity than equity partners, it has a ton of staff attorneys. They love to make just about every new attorney who didn't go through the summer associate process a staff attorney, even many laterals.
80K goes far in Kansas City!
WAKE UP! It's all a money game. How do the partners make more money...period.
6:55(2):
Guys in my highschool used to dress up their FRAT STUD comments with semicolons all the time. It was no big deal.
Well, 7:10, I'm sure my firm could make more money by calling me Madam X, dressing me in black pleather, and sending me out to paddle certain 'bad little clients' but you won't see me going along with that, either.
I one time had the horror of visiting Latham & Howrey DC's "off-site" doc review facilities about a year ago.
Good god. I hope they pay those sad sacks enough. At Latham, some fat martinet was literally marching up the rows of cubicles peering over their shoulders.
6:55/108--If you are in the office for 12 hours and only bill 8, something is wrong. With you. Either grow up and stop surfing the net all day, or re-evaluate the kinds of assignments you are getting and see what you can do to get better ones.
Well, 7:16, it's all relative.
116: its 12 hours in office hoping you get some work instead of laid-off. 8 hours is already stretching the one assignment that I've been churning for weeks. Get better assignments -- you must be lucky and work at the 10 top firms & be busy like no slowdown
********** CONTRACT ATTORNEY / STAFF ATTORNEY **********
OK -- 3L from American University's WCL here.
At AU, our career svc office is always pushing people to accept positions here, in DC, as contract attorneys / staff attorneys. I have, as have several of my colleagues on the Law Review. The rationale, from the school's prespective, is that it will give the career svc office some good "ins" at the big firms locally. I'm not sure whether it pans out, but, because of this push, most all AU 3Ls have jobs post-bar which is a really good thing in this bad economic times and bad post-Enron / post-mortgage legal crisis market.
From what I understand, there is not much difference between contract and staff attorneys -- thou I am doing more recruiting stuff. All I know is that several of my classmates have accepted positions as one or the other (contract / staff atty) at several top shops in DC post-bar (skaddan, latham, DLA, kirkland, Sutherland, come to mind). I accepted a job as a contract attorney from Evan (head of Kinney Recruiters) doing Asia market recruiting, on a contract basis, from DC. Things are good
AU lawyer-2-be
Washington College of Law, babyyyyy !!!
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This might be a stupid question... but, does a staff attorney/discovery attorney need to take the bar? I mean, they will never be in court... thanks in advance
This might be a stupid question... but, does a staff attorney/discovery attorney need to take the bar? I mean, they will never be in court... thanks in advance
119,
You're comment is hard to understand. Nothing personal, but are you retarded?
-- 17
119,
You're comment is hard to understand. Nothing personal, but are you retarded?
-- 17
Cravath associates as part of their bonus package get to kick staff attorneys in the face once every quarter. It is the Cravath way and another reason why they are top dog.
120 / 121: No need to take the bar as a staff attorney in DC. We staff attorneys in DC (as defined by DC Rules of Professional Conduct, not as ATL readers necessarily use the term) can not perform "legal work" but may only perform "para-professional" work (e.g., paralegal, legal assistant, summer law clerk, secretarial, etc.). We are like summer associates in that we are trusted to do the same sorts of things as lawyers, but cannot sign pleadings.
Hope this helps,
Senior staff attorney, V10 firm (DC)
125 -- thanks. did you graduate from AU law?
Dear 124,
Cravath is #2 on this year's Vault Top 100, not #1. Pick up a copy.
Sincerely,
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen, & Katz associate
Correct use of your and you're.
Your is possesive. You're is a contraction that means You Are. Anytime you are sure which to use, think: would it make sense for me to say "you are" in this sentence? If not, then use your.
For example:
Your grammar is atrocious. If you continue to make mistakes you're going to be fired.
Got it? Let's try not to make this mistake anymore.
118: No, he just overbills.
Correct use of your and you're.
Your is possesive. You're is a contraction that means You Are. Anytime you are sure which to use, think: would it make sense for me to say "you are" in this sentence? If not, then use your.
For example:
Your grammar is atrocious. If you continue to make mistakes, then you're going to be fired.
Got it? Let's try not to make this mistake anymore.
Why does everybody here knock on AU? It's a gr8 school and many of us have gone far in the legal community, both nationally and locally.
Big Firm Partner / AU c/o 1999
131,
Just because you're a partner in a two person firm doesn't make you a big firm partner. Also, stop typing like a 14-year old girl, it's not great.
119 & 131 = PROOF AU IS FOR MORONS.