Staff Attorney / Discovery Attorney Salaries: Open Thread
A staff attorney reader of ATL once described his position as “either the bluest white-collar job, or the whitest blue-collar job.” We found the description quite apt, based on what we know about being a staff attorney.
For those of you who are not familiar with them, staff attorneys perform work similar to contract attorneys — e.g., document review, document production, other discovery-related tasks — but, unlike contract attorneys, they are “on staff” at their specific firms (hence the title of staff attorney). They don’t have to worry, like contract attorneys, about what their next gig will be, since they are employed directly by their Biglaw shops (i.e., not placed through an agency). Staff attorneys have stable jobs, good benefits, and reasonable hours (at least most of the time; they may have to work overtime if a case is busy).
But there are also disadvantages to being a staff attorney. All that document work can be monotonous, even mind-numbing. Unlike associates, staff attorneys are not on the track towards partnership. They are often the first to be let go during downturns (e.g., at Milbank Tweed; see here and here).
Some staff attorneys claim they are treated like second-class citizens. Back in March, over at the Huffington Post, Yolanda Young — a former staff attorney at Covington & Burling — decried what she described as the firm’s “staff attorney ghetto,” noting the high proportion of minorities among the staff attorney ranks (and the low percentage of minorities among the ranks of partnership-track associates).
If it is a “ghetto,” however, it’s a rather well-paid one. From one tipster:
I’m a Paul Weiss staff attorney. [ATL] has a loyal following among us.I’d be interested in seeing a post on SA salaries. I wonder how much they differ from firm to firm here in NYC, or in other cities.
I’m sure such a post would get hammered with comments from BigLaw associates. But it would be widely read, and interesting to the growing ranks of the staff attorney underclass.
We’re happy to oblige. Here is the requested post.
Find out how much Paul Weiss pays its staff attorneys in New York — and, if you’re a staff attorney at another firm or in another city, dish about how much you make — after the jump.
Our tipster stated that Paul Weiss staff attorneys start at a salary of $100,000, plus two semi-annual $6,000 bonuses. Things improve with seniority:
Years 1-3: base salary $105K, bonuses $7K
Years 3-5: base salary $110K, bonuses $8K
“No chance of making associate, but after 4 years, SAs can be considered for ‘Senior Staff Attorney,’ whose salaries are closer to first-year associate salaries [of $160,000].”
As for contracts, PW staff attorneys sign an initial three-month contract, followed by six-month contracts. “One must make an effort NOT to get renewed or NOT to get a the full bonus. The D.C. office staff attorneys are all under three-month contracts.”
If you have data points to add about staff / discovery attorney compensation at other firms or in other cities, please provide the information in the comments. Thanks.
Earlier: Covington and Its ‘Staff Attorney Ghetto’?
Nationwide Layoff Watch: Milbank Cans Staff Attorneys
Correction: Milbank Didn’t Fire All Its Staff Attorneys
(283) 
Comments
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Here is a retarded question - what is the difference between a staff attorney and an associate?
How many hours do PW staff attorneys have to work per week?
Do staff attorneys have billable hour requirements?
Do staff attorneys make more than minimum wage?
Do staff attorneys have a breath of life in their bodies?
Let's just get it over with: TTT
105K+ isn't bad. They seem to do quite well for themselves.
4:07- did you read the post?
staff attorneys (a) are not on partnership track, (b) do shittier work than associates, (c) work fewer hours, (d) get paid less
What's the difference between Of Counsel and a staff attorney?
Got it 4:12, but I guess I didn't ask the question correctly. Why are they staff attorneys and not associates? Less academic creditials?
I don't have any data on staff attorneys but I think this is a great post.
Maybe now we can finally hear from all of the American grads who work in "biglaw."
If you can manage that on 45-50 hrs a week, rock and roll. better than most
ye 4:07 are you retarted, rty reading the post before commenting. and its not like you have the excuse of trying to be 'first' as now your not!
"One must make an effort NOT to get renewed or NOT to get a the full bonus. The D.C. office staff attorneys are all under three-month contracts."
i suspect thats how recently downsized staff attorneys felt until just before they were downsized
4:16: why not try spelling correctly, then try making a comprehensible statement, then submit your post. You arse.
Ha, I get it, #9- because they're all staff attorneys!!
It's funny because it's true.
If Yolanda Young and the rest of her ghetto friends think that she deserves a better, higher-paying job, she should quit and switch to that job. What's the matter, can't even find one job that pays better?
When the best job you can get is a $100k staff attorney position, maybe the market is trying to tell you how much your labor is actually worth, in spite of your tarnished Ivy League law degree earned through affirmative action.
165,000 as a staff attorney, same billables as associates, in a year and a 1/2 will be reviewed for associate position.
Also, when you apply to other firms, nobody has to know you are not an associate.
Wait, I can work normal hours and make 100k/yr fresh out of school with my law degree? Where the hell do I apply - I don't care if it is doc review, I'd MUCH rather do this then work crazy hours at the same firm pulling in 180-200k (incl. bonuses) at the same place.
-current 2L
16: what firm?
17: titcp
16, what firm & what city? Sounds like a good deal.
17, you do realize that for five years your professional skills will develop as much as if you'd spent five years cutting grass, right? And that your skills will not be transferrable to any other job with upward mobility?
Associate life is tough because it's not forever. It leads somewhere- to partnership, to a skilled position in-house, or to a business leadership position. Staff attorney leads nowhere.
wow 9, bitter much?
As a law firm associate, I wouldn't mind "retiring" as a career associate, but going in-house at that point would be the better choice. (If the market picks up a bit.) Career associates get dumped on by everyone, including the paralegals, so beware.
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
Would someone please explain why anyone would apply to be a staff attorney instead of an associate? Is it because they didn't summer there? Didn't have the grades? I don't understand.
"Also, when you apply to other firms, nobody has to know you are not an associate."
Don't you have to write "Staff Attorney" or some other title on your resume instead of "Associate"?
No, I just had to pick a TTT school to hammer. It could just as easily have been Mason, Catholic or Maryland. AU just felt right.
-9
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
16..i find it hard to believe a firm you were applying to transfer to would not not conduct any sort of due diligence and find out you are a staff attorney and not an associate
18, Major Int'l firm...pretty good arrangement hu?
-17
Does anyone know if a major int'l firm is a pretty good arrangement?
Of course, the really amusing thing is that most associates aren't on the partnership track either.
If you hold yourself out as an associate on your resume when you are, in fact, a staff attorney and the target firm finds out about it, kiss any offer you might have had goodbye. Also start preparing a response to a possible ethics commission inquiry. Lying about that stuff is not taken to very kindly by the legal community.
31,
As I understand it, associates have the ability to move in-house.
Staff attorneys have the ability to lie on their resumes about being a staff attorney when applying to othe firms.
Awesome, 31. I'll accept pwnage.
-19
17 = retard. how many comments will you post
Post # 15: Chill out. Most minorities that made it to Ivy actually worked hard for it and if they would have had the opportunities that you did growing up, they would have smoked you and probably gone farther up the legal ladder. Quit with the bigotry.
Anyone getting all envious of staff attorneys ("100K for 45-50 hours of just doc review?! Sign me up!") clearly has never supervised a massive document review project.
These are miserable, soul-draining, mind-numbing projects - you can't help but feel for the reviewers, and thank your lucky stars you're not doing that work for a living. It is - bar none - the most miserable work I can imagine, and an absolute intellectual void. It is really hell on earth for lawyers.
36 - "if they would have had the opportunities that you did growing up, they would have smoked you and probably gone farther up the legal ladder"
you may be overreaching there. honestly, most kids at ivy's didn't grow up poor or disadvantaged, minorities or not.
"Quit with the bigotry." - Agreed.
pretty unnuanced view of post #15 to say there was bigotry. smarten up.
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
So the biglaw market has gone from lockstep associates on track to partner in 8 years to a caste system of contract atty/staff atty/associate/of counsel/salary partner/equity partner, and it now takes 12-15 years to equity and only 10% or so of associates have a realistic shot at that.
The saddest part is that you all are billing 2200+ hours a year as if nothing has changed, so boomer partners who never worked that hard coming up can make a mil a year.
#9 must be a disaffected DC law student, probably GULC without an offer, Howard, UDC, maybe...
4:53 nicely put, just make sure your in that 10%
40 - A bit of advice, then: Live waaaaay below your means (if that's even possible where you live, i.e. not NY or SF).
So what are some of the other DC/NYC staff attorneys from big firms pulling in annually? How many hours per week/year? Do you get paid overtime?
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
Doc review is only bad if you actually review the documents. I usually just figure out about how many documents I should be reviewing in an hour. I spend about 5 minutes skimming that number of docs (usually marking them all irrelevant) and then spend the next 55 minutes on the internet. Repeat 8-10 times and go home.
9 - I would check your rankings, none of those schools are TTT. and I agree with 43.
Some staff attys work just as hard as associates and do the same work. Staff attys typically have to work harder to prove themselves if they want to move up to associate
42-
Some of us are at firms that still have eight years lockstep to partner. It starts to get pretty nerve-wracking after about year five. At least with a two-tier system you can stretch out the gravy train for awhile before you have to figure out what you're going to do with the rest of your career.
If that is true 48, you are committing professional malpractice and would be fired on the spot if I was supervising you.
Current 2L, what are you hoping to switch to in five years? Why can't you do it now, before $30k of extra debt and five years of 2500-billables?
So the biglaw market has gone from lockstep associates on track to partner in 8 years to a caste system of contract atty/staff atty/associate/of counsel/salary partner/equity partner, and it now takes 12-15 years to equity and only 10% or so of associates have a realistic shot at that.
The saddest part is that you all are billing 2200+ hours a year as if nothing has changed, so boomer partners who never worked that hard coming up can make a mil a year.
Exactly correct. Most staff attorneys are in it for the money. They don't have the responsibility/pressure of being an associate and don't desire to be on partnership track anyways. More than a few have been associates, worked in agencies, or had their own solo practices (or still do) on the side. Pay can be directly proportional to how much they work. 2000 in billables can net you about $110k. If you desire it, you can easily make $150k+. That's without having to take any work home, having the managing partner calling your house at 10 o'clock, or generally dealing with any BS. True the work can be mind numbing.
"Staff attys typically have to work harder to prove themselves if they want to move up to associate"
I'm not sure where you work, 50, but I think that most people will agree that this is impossible at almost all big firms.
55: I work at a big firm as a staff atty. Why do you say it's impossible?
Current 2L, I understand your train of thought perfectly. If your school has a joint JD/MBA program (only adds a year) check into that.
56 - let me rephrase, in that case. I've never, ever heard of this happening at any big firm. It seems to be a common myth in TempTown and among staff attorneys on boards like this. Have you ever seen it happen? I'm not saying it doesn't, I've just never heard about it here in DC, that's all.
58: Happened a lot in my firm
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
JD/MBA is worthless if you think that the MBA part is going to redeem your shitty performance in law school. Trust me, I have the JD/MBA and spectacularly shitty resume to prove it.
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
Wait a minute, when did we start referencing others' comments by # rather than by time?
Knon fact. Staff attorneys get laid. Big law book worms don't. Mekka Don. One.
OMG! Someone spelled "known" wrong. Unbeleevable
OMG! Someone spelled "known" wrong. Unbeleevable
55, 56: Moving up in nearly all big firms is impossible. Having said that, a few firms have started to use the staff attorney position as a way to screen would be associates. We'll pay you less money than you would make as a first year associate and if we don't like you bye-bye. What's the number cause of all of this....too many attorneys with large amounts of debt.
5:14 - this terrible trend is starting to pick up and i for one do not like it. back to numbers my countrymen
37 -- I agree that the work is mind-numbing and soul-draining, but that job description aptly fits a majority of attorney positions, all the way from contract attorney to associate to partner.
The other point is that while there are some contract attorneys who do it for a "living," I think most do it knowing they don't want to practice law at all, and simply need a paycheck until they know or are able to pursue what will truly make them happy.
True story: I worked as a Skadden legal assistant some years back while in law school. One staff attorney tried to treat me like shit, so I gave him the exact same (dis)respect in return. He then (amazingly) became an associate at another Skadden office and took every opportunity to shit on me from quite a great distance. Anyhow, the move from SA to associate can happen, but I think it is pretty rare (at SASMF at least) and may definitely include a transfer to an office where no one knew your previous SA self.
I know this may come as an absolute shock to some of you spoiled ivy leaguers, but some ppl actually did not go to ivy and have to prove themselves in other ways
I work in King & Spalding's ATL discovery shop. The staff attorneys start out here as temporary "project attorneys", basically an excuse not to give benefits and to pay less. Usually within a year or so, project attorneys move to being permanent staff attorneys, who make roughly the same proportionate to associates as reported above for NYC. 1900 billables required, hourly bonus for anything over 1900.
Yes, it is boring, boring, work, but there are worse things than boring. Why do it? Some can't get associate positions, some no longer want them (or lost them in the real estate/credit mess), some just need something to tide them over until they transition into something else, some need more time with their families. It's decent pay for very non-stressful work, and that works for a lot of people.
61: Well, if you have shitty grades, nothing is going to help you. You're making an incorrect assumption that his/her or anyone else's grades are shitty. If you're speaking for yourself, point taken.
BigLaw in Boston (if there is such a thing)...Staff Attorneys start at $95K, annual bonus range 10K-15K. Minimum billables of 1850. Little to no shot of associate advancement but a "professional track" does exist apparently.
Any other hard numbers out there?
Can some people post salaries and bonuses for other Staff Attorney Programs in NYC?
"Can some people post salaries and bonuses for other Staff Attorney Programs in NYC?"
zomg lolz bonuses
Can anyone tell me if the Milbank discovery attorney program is still referred to internally as 'The House of Payne'?
I'm a (first year) SA in DC, making 105k, 2000 billable hours.
I graduated from a T3 school with mediocre grades so I looked at this as a chance (even if small) to get some Biglaw experience and maybe bump to associate after a year or two.
5:35 - Bonuses?
5:35 - Bonuses?
37: if staff attorney is seriously "bar none" the most miserable work you can imagine, you should Tivo Dirty Jobs and have a little ponder about how the other half lives.
AmLaw Top 30 Firm with starting staff attorney salary of $105k (10-30k bonus depending on billables and performance). 2 "tracks" include some making senior staff attorney in 3-5 years and some who prove themselves valuable to the right partners jumping to associate.
First of all, I am the original 17 (not the one who posted all those duplicates - that is not I).
To the poster who talked about skills progressing: I don't want to be in law more than five years anyway, hope to switch to something else by then.
-Current 2L, 17
97: what firm?
97: what are the targets for bonuses? and what firm?
97: or what city?
79 - T3, really? You must mean Tier 3, not HYS, right? If you went to HYS and could only land a SA position, you must have sh!t the bed as a summer...
Could you tell me about White & Case and Davis Polk & Wardwell. I don’t know which one to choose.
Thank you
(social life , office ,ect).
100 comments (including all the spam from #17 - thanks 'tard!), and still haven't heard from FRAT STUD.
"Guys in my high school" comment in 3... 2...1...
How do you prove yourself valuable and move up doing doc review? The worst part about doc review is that it is piecework where the only way to distinguish oneself is to f--- up. "Wow Bob, you really pointed and clicked that privilege button with style, how'd you like to talk to my client about IP licensing strategies?" The best associates I know are bad at doc review because they overthink every call.
and base salary for those 2 firms as well?
and base salary for those 2 firms as well?
102- Of course they mean Tier 3.
97 - Sounds like DLA Piper.
94 - can i borrow that time machine of your's this weekend? i want to go back and bang britney spears when she was hot.
91, you're right it is difficult. But if you are given broader responsibilities (i.e. research, writing memos...), you're essentially doing the same things as an associate and can distinguish yourself
91, you're right it is difficult. But if you are lucky and given broader responsibilities (i.e. research, writing memos...), you're essentially doing the same things as an associate and can distinguish yourself
Sounds like a boring repetitive office job that pays OK, but goes no where fast. That's where most people are with their careers and they don't get paid 100k+. Could be worse.
Reason #62 to keep the timestamp reference: lat deletes the spam from 17 (thank you) so now all the numbers are off.
Guys in my high school used to be staff attorneys and do document reviews all the time. It was no big deal.
FRAT STUD died. I killed him with VD.
SORORITY SWEETHEART
Being a staff attorney sounds definitely better than the contract document review work I did a few years ago. That paid absolute crap comparatively ($25.00/hr), but the work was easy. If it wasn't for the fact that I actually found a firm that allows me to bill 2100 a year and have a family, I'd definitely look into staff attorney work. Most firms want 2400 hours or so a year to be an associate.
91 - Actually, you'd be surprised. First of all, not every staff attorney position is strictly doc review. Several actually do the same work as first and second year associates: Doc review, leading large scale projects, document collection, interviewing clients (yes, believe or not), contract review and drafting, drafting menial letters (please find enclosed our document production....blah, blahetc, etc.) The title staff attorney can denote many different skill sets, although for the most part the job is purely doc review. What is common is that biglaw firms generally pay staff attorneys less money, but ultimately make more money off of them. 1st and 2nd year associates are generally not worth much to law firms due to the large salaries (in terms of profit) and generally lack skills to make them marketable to clients (past their resume -we only hire Harvard grads). Staff attorney programs are worth millions. You do the math: Staff attorney generally makes $40 an hour plus OT, but firms bill them out at $150+ and nearly all of their time is billable. No amount overhead (barring a lack of work) can make that up that gap.
Gentleman in my prepatory academy used to scoff at the idea of becoming a servile staff attorney, it was no big deal.
- Priviliged Frat Stud
Perhaps due to uniquely pro-employee laws in CA, the staff attorneys in my office are all hourly employees and gets overtime pay when working more than 8 hours per day (that's not billable but 8 hours in the office). Given the number of overtime work required on regular basis, many of them do fairly well in terms of compensation.
$105K for 2000 billables sounds like very shitty pay to me. I know that the pressure is less (though I don't necessarily buy that entirely), but 2000 hours is 2000 hours. I'm sure I'll get blasted by BIGLAW associates saying that 2000 hours is a joke, but I'm at a small firm now (making more than $105K) and won't bill even close to 2000 hours any given year.
Gentleman in MY prepatory academy used to employ servile staff attorneys to do their laundry and clean their rooms, it was no big deal.
--v. privileged Frat Stud
6:39 pm - Again the difference is that almost all of their time is billable. In a given 12 hour day an associate may bill, what 8 hours on average? They're billing 12. Staff attorneys WILL make their 2000 billables, plus some just for showing up at the office. No staying in the office for 12-14 hour days to meet their billable requirement. Additionally for those that get paid hourly (plus bonus and OT) they're going to make a lot more money. So in a year where an associate has "worked" 3000 hours (guessing) but billed 2400 the staff attorney has billed 2800 hours (again slight exaggerations, but you get the point). If a staff attorney bills 3000 hours, they're making at least $160k, not including bonuses. Just looking at billable hour minimums is not going to give you a correct comparison.
Guys in my high school used to complain about the lack of frat stud comments all the time; it was no big deal.
Shook, Hardy & Bacon Staff Attorneys in KC start at 60-80k per year, and get treated like crap. What's funny is that not only does SHB have more non-equity than equity partners, it has a ton of staff attorneys. They love to make just about every new attorney who didn't go through the summer associate process a staff attorney, even many laterals.
80K goes far in Kansas City!
WAKE UP! It's all a money game. How do the partners make more money...period.
6:55(2):
Guys in my highschool used to dress up their FRAT STUD comments with semicolons all the time. It was no big deal.
Well, 7:10, I'm sure my firm could make more money by calling me Madam X, dressing me in black pleather, and sending me out to paddle certain 'bad little clients' but you won't see me going along with that, either.
I one time had the horror of visiting Latham & Howrey DC's "off-site" doc review facilities about a year ago.
Good god. I hope they pay those sad sacks enough. At Latham, some fat martinet was literally marching up the rows of cubicles peering over their shoulders.
6:55/108--If you are in the office for 12 hours and only bill 8, something is wrong. With you. Either grow up and stop surfing the net all day, or re-evaluate the kinds of assignments you are getting and see what you can do to get better ones.
Well, 7:16, it's all relative.
116: its 12 hours in office hoping you get some work instead of laid-off. 8 hours is already stretching the one assignment that I've been churning for weeks. Get better assignments -- you must be lucky and work at the 10 top firms & be busy like no slowdown
********** CONTRACT ATTORNEY / STAFF ATTORNEY **********
OK -- 3L from American University's WCL here.
At AU, our career svc office is always pushing people to accept positions here, in DC, as contract attorneys / staff attorneys. I have, as have several of my colleagues on the Law Review. The rationale, from the school's prespective, is that it will give the career svc office some good "ins" at the big firms locally. I'm not sure whether it pans out, but, because of this push, most all AU 3Ls have jobs post-bar which is a really good thing in this bad economic times and bad post-Enron / post-mortgage legal crisis market.
From what I understand, there is not much difference between contract and staff attorneys -- thou I am doing more recruiting stuff. All I know is that several of my classmates have accepted positions as one or the other (contract / staff atty) at several top shops in DC post-bar (skaddan, latham, DLA, kirkland, Sutherland, come to mind). I accepted a job as a contract attorney from Evan (head of Kinney Recruiters) doing Asia market recruiting, on a contract basis, from DC. Things are good
AU lawyer-2-be
Washington College of Law, babyyyyy !!!
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This might be a stupid question... but, does a staff attorney/discovery attorney need to take the bar? I mean, they will never be in court... thanks in advance
This might be a stupid question... but, does a staff attorney/discovery attorney need to take the bar? I mean, they will never be in court... thanks in advance
119,
You're comment is hard to understand. Nothing personal, but are you retarded?
-- 17
119,
You're comment is hard to understand. Nothing personal, but are you retarded?
-- 17
Cravath associates as part of their bonus package get to kick staff attorneys in the face once every quarter. It is the Cravath way and another reason why they are top dog.
120 / 121: No need to take the bar as a staff attorney in DC. We staff attorneys in DC (as defined by DC Rules of Professional Conduct, not as ATL readers necessarily use the term) can not perform "legal work" but may only perform "para-professional" work (e.g., paralegal, legal assistant, summer law clerk, secretarial, etc.). We are like summer associates in that we are trusted to do the same sorts of things as lawyers, but cannot sign pleadings.
Hope this helps,
Senior staff attorney, V10 firm (DC)
125 -- thanks. did you graduate from AU law?
Dear 124,
Cravath is #2 on this year's Vault Top 100, not #1. Pick up a copy.
Sincerely,
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen, & Katz associate
Correct use of your and you're.
Your is possesive. You're is a contraction that means You Are. Anytime you are sure which to use, think: would it make sense for me to say "you are" in this sentence? If not, then use your.
For example:
Your grammar is atrocious. If you continue to make mistakes you're going to be fired.
Got it? Let's try not to make this mistake anymore.
118: No, he just overbills.
Correct use of your and you're.
Your is possesive. You're is a contraction that means You Are. Anytime you are sure which to use, think: would it make sense for me to say "you are" in this sentence? If not, then use your.
For example:
Your grammar is atrocious. If you continue to make mistakes, then you're going to be fired.
Got it? Let's try not to make this mistake anymore.
Why does everybody here knock on AU? It's a gr8 school and many of us have gone far in the legal community, both nationally and locally.
Big Firm Partner / AU c/o 1999
131,
Just because you're a partner in a two person firm doesn't make you a big firm partner. Also, stop typing like a 14-year old girl, it's not great.
119 & 131 = PROOF AU IS FOR MORONS.
119
people on law review at a t50 school can only get jobs as a staff attorney?
and i got wait listed there, sigh...
119
law review at AU gets you staff attorney gigs? at a t50 school in a major legal market?
and i got wait listed there...
6:39 - It might sound bad with law firm billables, but consider what staff attorneys do. 2000 billables for them probably means damn close to 2000 hours worked, which means they are working a 9-5 job with no weekends.
40 hour a week job paying me $105K+ to read papers? Way better than most of these other "career alternatives" that pop up around here.
132, 133, 134, 135 = proof that trolling people on ATL is like shooting fish in a barrel.
- Not 119 or 131
V5 3rd year associate here-
not lying, I often ask the staff attorneys to go to Starbucks for me and they are the most eager and helpful of the lot (paras, secretaries, legal assistants)
"At AU, our career svc office is always pushing people to accept positions here, in DC, as contract attorneys / staff attorneys. I have, as have several of my colleagues on the Law Review. The rationale, from the school's prespective, is that it will give the career svc office some good "ins" at the big firms locally. I'm not sure whether it pans out, but, because of this push, most all AU 3Ls have jobs post-bar which is a really good thing in this bad economic times and bad post-Enron / post-mortgage legal crisis market."
Come on. There rationale is to be able to have a ridiculously high percentage of grads employed, and also to tell people interesting in going to law school there that an inflated % of people go to BIGLAW, without actually telling them that most are going into subservient staff attorney positions.
137,
Just admit you are 131 and you went to a bad law school. You're like a friend of mine who goes to a medical school in the Caribbean and thinks it's better than Harvard or Johns Hopkins.
-132
To 138 @ 8:27,
You got beat up a lot in high school, right?
I would have loved to have been your bully, you fucking faggot. If you treat an attorney that way (i.e. ask him to get you coffee) he should find you on the street and do much more than beat the shit out of you. I would.
Believe me, faggot, you would not be able to report the incident or sue me or anything, because there would be a bullet between your faggot ears.
Treat people with respect.
I think 141 got stuffed into his locker one too many times during high school.
The pro-AU posts have to be trolls. I fell for it the other day with the magistrate clerk but no way with this law review guy.
Firms do hire AU grads as associates, just very very few of them.
But man, imagine being bred and prepped to be the staff attorney Squire to a T14 Knight- by your own law school and career services office. There's no way they could do that and be taken seriously.
I guess I have to admit I can't tell whether the AU people are trolling or serious?
Maybe we should just beat up on GW for a couple of days until we figure out for sure?
-T10
141,
STAFF Attorneys are just that -- "staff." Like my secretary, legal assistant, and other support staff, if I ask a staff attorney to get me coffee, then I expect that the staff attorney will. Its not disrespect, it is what the staff is there for -- to help out the real attorneys to be more productive and better serve clients.
Grande caramel macchiato -- light ice, please.
# 138.
141,
Are you the legal secretary I got fired a week ago?
-138
Got that right, 142, by someone who called him gay names, apparently.
Cravath pwns Wachtell. I mean, have you ever looked at a group of Wachtell attorneys? Its embarrassing.
wow 141 - overcompensating for something?
sounds like you secretly enjoy some good butt play, which works out well as you are almost certainly a staff attorney.
I know who 141 is. He is a staff attorney with a small prick. He takes it up the ass from me, and I'm a first-year associate at his firm, and a summa cum laude graduate of AU.
On the theme of getting people coffee, no one should bristle at honest work for honest pay- if my boss needs something and it's something I'm allowed to do for him I do it. Period.
If I'm on staff (i.e. not a timekeeper) I'll do whatever the heck my boss[es] want- carry things, get coffee, take out trash, or dig holes and sleep in them. I get paid for it.
For timekeepers it's different because you can't record the time you spend on dumb errands. But as between a timekeeper and a staff person (like a midlevel associate and staff attorney) getting coffee doesn't seem like something to call people names or fight over. Just do it.
Dear ATL readers,
141 here.
I graduated from AU law, with honors.
I am a contract attorney in DC -- at a V14 firm.
I take it up the a$$ from real attorneys at the firm.
I eat Dlck
Garbage men get more respect than me.
Washingotn College of Law -4 eva, dawg!
Does AU law have ABA accrediation, or is it like the University of Pheonix of law schools?
Serious responses please.
-- Fordham Undergrad (considering DC-area law schools)
UVA pisses all over AU law. Why is this a surprise? Most UVA grads I know won't even talk to AU grads.
ok i know 151 is lying, but would anyone be so stupid to graduate from AU with honors only to work as a contract attorney? surely there are mid-size firms that pay well 115-150 range that they could work for.
9:03 pm --
I will answer your compound question.
"Does AU law have ABA accrediation[?]" No.
"[I]s [AU law] like the University of Pheonix of law schools?" Yes.
152 - AU is a tier 1 school (top50)
Are you all kidding me?
An attorney should never be asked to run errands. We are talking about a person who passed the bar here and who is charging clients for time as a professional. You young kids (a lot of whom I assume are still in school) have NO IDEA what you are talking about. It would be completely unprofessional and clueless to ask any attorney to get you coffee, Indeed, since about the 1960s it has been wrong to ask a secretary to do that!
You self-entitled pricks who have never had to work before really need to grow up.
And no I am not a staff attorney (or gay!), you juvenile idiots. I just hate those who don't show respect for people (like when a partner doesn't show respect to me).
- 141
AU sucks, period. 152, I'd consider just staying where you are and going to law school there. Fordham's ranked way higher than AU. 141, I don't even think you're a lawyer, you sound like somebody who went to some 4th-tier law school and couldn't get a job except in the recruiting department of a second-rate firm. Stop using the f-word, you're not 10 years old anymore.
--NYU 2L
PLEASE STOP ALL THE HATING ON AU. SOME OF US ARE PROUD TO GO TO SCHOOL THERE AND ALSO HAVE HIGH ASPIRATIONS. I AM A 2L THERE AND HOPE TO ONE DAY WORK FOR THE ACLU AND THEN CLERK FOR A JUDGE ON A FEDERAL CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS. OTHER AU GRADS HAVE AND, UNLIKE YOU BIG LAW COGS, I WILL ACHIEVE MY GOALS.
SOME OF US CHOSE TO GO TO AU BECAUSE OF ITS FANTASTIC NATIONAL REPUTATION FOR TRAINING TO-BE PUBLIC SERVANTS. SOME OF US REJECTED OTHER SCHOOLS (YES, INCLUDING GULC AND UVA) FOR AU FOR THAT REASON. NO, WE DO NOT ALL BECOME CONTRACT ATTORNEYS OR STAFF ATTORNEYS. AND YES, SEVERAL OF US TAKE GREAT PUBLIC INTEREST JOBS.
STOP KNOCKING ON AU UNLESS YOU HAVE GOOD REASON TO.
yes 158 because anyone can just decide to go to a school like fordham, its sooo easy to get into top 50 law schools.
Guys in my high school used to get mad at other lawyers for telling their staff attorneys and secretaries to get coffee for them. It was no big deal.
141 / 157 = staff attorney / AU alum / homosexual
159
3/10, avoid caps next time
160,
Don't hate just because you got rejected from every top 50 law school you applied to and now go to Chapman. It's okay, not everybody can get into a top law school, and you're just another statistic. By the way, I got into every school I applied to (NYU, UCLA, USC, Berkeley, Columbia, University of Chicago, Georgetown, Northwestern, Duke).
--NYU 2L
if staff attorneys are staff at your firm (as they are at mine), then there isnt a damn thing wrong with asking a staff attorney to help with errands like filings, getting coffee, making labels. fact is that staff attorneys in d.c. are like paralegals and are there to help out billing attorneys (partners, counsel, and associates) and other staff (recruiting, legal assistants, etc.) with whatever it is that they are asked to do.
165 makes a good point. The purpose of staff is to help out revenue-generators. And, frankly, contract/staff attorneys are there to assist the firms' licensed attorneys.
164
calling BS on that statement, you apply to every big name school but HYS?? not with that ego.
159
I don't think you rejected Georgetown and Virginia, I think it was the other way around. Yeah, working for the ACLU is really something to aspire to, especially when you get married, have two kids, student loans, and a mortgage to look forward to later on down the line. What do those people make, 40 grand a year? Stop with the holier-than-thou crap, you wish you would be able to make 160 grand a year when you finish at AU. Meanwhile, I will.
Stanford 3L
AU is not so bad. I graduated from AU, got some great externships and experiences, and will work as a staff attorney at a V5 LAW FIRM in NYC starting in August.
For all of you who doubt AU, I am at a TOP FIRM and I will be making over 100k (plus overtime). And the best of all is I am only required to work (not bill) 45 hrs/week!
Maybe AU knows something about placing its grads that GULC / GW / Mason don't !!!!!
168
maybe not all of us are from the working class.
/no loans
//plans on working for govt.
167,
Maybe not all of us want to be Harvard pricks. You ever thought of that?
Sincerely,
--167
9:21.
Good point. Now go f-ck yourself, you f-cking f-ck!
AU student.
167,
Maybe not all of us want to be Harvard pricks. You ever thought of that?
Sincerely,
--164
167,
Maybe not all of us want to be Harvard pricks. You ever thought of that?
Sincerely,
--164
A little advice to the poster from Fordham, if you're in CBA and you don't know already, theres a pretty good scholarship (I think like 30k a year) for graduates who go onto Fordham Law. A word of advice though, they take forever to notify you. I had already accepted elsewhere when they notified me.
164 -
you're right, its much better to be an NYU prick
170,
My parents are doctors. I don't have loans to take out. Everybody knows the best and brightest in this country go into the private sector, not public service. Obviously, you're not in the category mentioned. Sorry.
168
yes, 170 you are right. only stupid people ever work for the govt.
176,
You're right, it is. Thanks for making my point.
Did you all even read the ATL post above!? SAs are licensed attorneys! They bill their time! You students need to go back to your summer associate projects or dinners or booze cruises now. When you graduate and start really working, just try telling a New York SA to get you coffee. See what happens next.
- This is 157, defender of SA honor (though I am an associate and would never be an SA to tell the whole truth!)
Howrey DC pays between $70k - $80k to start for 1800 billables. Salary depends on when you graduated with an extra $1k for each year you are out of school.
Judging by the current administration, I’d say 178 hit the nail on the head
168--
Sweet. Congrats. My parents don't make shit and I probably work at a better firm than you.
Posting anonymously about where you were accepted and went to law school is the best way to establish yourself as an intellectual titan.
I should know because I rejected every school I applied to except for Yale and Harvard. I got JDs from both of them -- simply because I could -- and went on to receive an MBA from Wharton and an MD from Stanford. And I did not have to take out loans because I'm rich. You see, I invented the hybrid car when I was 13 and working on my undergraduate degree at MIT.
Of course, I now choose to work as a staff attorney for mid-sized firm in Pittsburgh. I'm not worried, though, because once I decide to apply myself I will be managing partner in three years.
Now excuse me, I have to go fetch coffee for my supervisor, a 26-year old U. Penn State grad.
--Silas P. Rotterdam IV, Esq.
Why the heck would you be a staff attorney at a top firm if you had any opportunity to work at one of the many mid-size firms (300-500 lawyers) as an associate making market salary (with some inevitable compression, but better partnership chance)?
The only reason I can see to be a staff attorney is if you really have no self esteem and have or had no chance to work as a real associate.
If anyone ever asks me for coffee they will get back a cup with ten percent human shit mixed in, along with some piss from the mens' room toilet.
I hope some SAs and paras and secretaries will get some ideas from this and give you spoiled 25 year old kids a tasty beverage you deserve.
- Not an SA either
Public Service Announcement to all UVA Law grads. It is in your best interests to avoid any and all interaction with AU Law grads if you value your self esteem, social status, and what everyone around thinks of you.
Signed,
Concerned UVA Law grad
Well played 184.
Another benefit of the staff attorney position is it allows one to work from home. Since most doc review is electronic these days staff attorneys can chill at home reviewing on high speed internet connections while the associates have to be be in the office.
I like 180 because that's what I got on my LSAT. That earned me a fee waiver at AU. My mom got really excited about that because our neighbor's son went to AU. After I showed her the waiver, I excused myself and went to the bathroom. In the bathroom, I pooped in glee and read over the fee waiver. When I finished pooping, I took the AU letter and folded in 2, and then in 4. Then I proceeded to thoroughly wipe my ass with it, over and over, until my ass bled.
yawn....
Can we hear more about being in the office for 12 hours and billing less than 8 hours?
183,
I start at Cravath in the fall. Unless you're WLRK, step off.
Sincerely,
168
186=fat, old legal secretary who chain smokes, has a husband who is a truck driver, and is 50 grand in the hole in credit card debt on a salary of 70 grand
192/168
That sounds like a total blast. Congrats. Here's hoping you'll still be bragging about your little indulged life after three months. You'll be begging for your sweet doctor parents to come help you after Cravath makes it so you can't sit down.
194,
You should like a black or Mexican affirmative action acceptance. Go back to selling crack to 7-year olds on street corners in Compton or Watts and leave the important stuff to the people who know what they're talking about.
195,
Lovely. Actually I'm white, but you've just shown your true colors. Not only are your parents doctors, but they have raised a truly wonderful individual. I am sure you will go far in life, as bigots with no morals often do.
This thread has veered way off-topic. There's people being racist, bragging about what schools they've been accepted to, and which firms they work for. I'd like to hear more about making 100K a year only working 8 hours a day.
Justice Roberts started as a staff attorney. Alito went to AU.
194/196,
They do, look at the elite in this country (celebrities, politicians, athletes). Everybody's a racist in this country. If you claim you're not, you've got an even bigger problem than I do.
10:29-
You just described every thread ever on ATL. All we need now is for someone to compare someone else to a Nazi, and this thread is officially complete.
Alito went to Yale, 198.
Posts 150-200 remind me of Nazis.
Good job, 201! You're officially 50% retarded.
Shut the hell up, 203. Your face is retarded.
Wait. Why is it that everyone hates attorneys again? Oh yeah, this blog.
204, if i saw you on the street, I would hock a huge loogey in your face, and I bet you would nothing about it.
204 and 206,
Grow up and stop acting like you're in preschool.
207,
Shut the hell up.
206,
Check your grammar. "I bet you would nothing about it." Idiot.
The point still stands, you would do nothing about it, pencil geek.
Stop talking about yourself, pencil geek.
Guys in my high school used to make racist remarks, brag about law school acceptances, and talk about which firms they worked for. It was no big deal.
Lat & Kash,
You guys need to do something about all the high school kids on this thread specifically and on this site in general.
GUYS IN MY HIGH SCHOOL USED TO RANT IN ALL CAPS ABOUT HOW THEY GOT INTO . . .
aww, fuck it
I am a licensed NY-barred attorney. I work as a contract atty. for $50 per hour minimum, and take home over 100K. I also take about 8 weeks off during the year. How do I do it? I am a language specialist with a good reputation. The last time I worked on a Saturday I earned over $500 that day and finished by 3 PM. No firm could pay me enough to spend 10-12 hours per day in the office on a "forever" basis, and still dread my buzzing blackberry on Saturday nights. Sure, some younger associates have treated me badly. But I understand it's because they are mostly miserable, insecure and overvalued snots who have something to prove, and who also still believe that what they do is more important. They'll learn.
214,
You suck as a human being as much as you suck at being an attorney. People respect you as much as they respect a child rapist. Have fun being a joke the rest of your life. Moron.
I second 215 - 214 and his/her ilk are scum. Seriously, you think that you are superior because you took home over 100k in NYC? My retarded brother-in-law probably cleared more than you last year. Moreover, you profess to be something special since you don't have to deal with the political underpinnings of lawfirm life. Let me give you a hint, genius, that is how the world works.
This article is the first time I've ever heard the expression "making associate."
214, +5 points for submitting a comment that's actually useful.
I'm an associate but I'd still love to hear more about staff attorneys (but not so much about law school vendettas or racial nonsense, thanks).
Why does the picture show a creepy dude in a sweater in the background?
Prestige hounds:
Please hold off on attacking third tier grads and staff attorneys for a couple of hours so that actual staff attorneys can get a word in edgewise.
This thread's been hijacked by about three people who are engaged in a cat fight. It should be easy to find & block the two or three IPs where 90% of the inappropriate comments came from.
I seriously hope all you pompous t14 as$$wipes realize that the judges (and more importantly, the TTT clerks who write the law that makes the whole world - not just Biglaw world - sing) read these boards, and just can't wait for to see you show up in court and fuck up. They won't know who you are, but they already snicker, waiting for certain firm name lawyers to pop up and preen. If I were biglaw E&O carrier, I would demand my insured's associates shut their overpriced yaps lest they screw their client's playing fields.
And don't forget folks who got back$tabbed by their summer a$$ociate pals to last longer as an a$$ociate then they - only to get fired before partner. If they are not researchign and writing opinions on your cases, they may just be in house at a firm client - wondering why their Brioni pals rip on them for wearing Barney's NY. Biding time until they get to a position where they can decide where THEIR millions in fees go?.
Remember this, a$$holes - your salary comes from clients and results - and without both, you are likely to be reading this board from your kitchen counter in between cranking out resumes!
I seriously hope all you pompous t14 as$$wipes realize that the judges (and more importantly, the TTT clerks who write the law that makes the whole world - not just Biglaw world - sing) read these boards, and just can't wait for to see you show up in court and fuck up. They won't know who you are, but they already snicker, waiting for certain firm name lawyers to pop up and preen. If I were biglaw E&O carrier, I would demand my insured's associates shut their overpriced yaps lest they screw their client's playing fields.
And don't forget folks who got back$tabbed by their summer a$$ociate pals to last longer as an a$$ociate then they - only to get fired before partner. If they are not researchign and writing opinions on your cases, they may just be in house at a firm client - wondering why their Brioni pals rip on them for wearing Barney's NY. Biding time until they get to a position where they can decide where THEIR millions in fees go?.
Remember this, a$$holes - your salary comes from clients and results - and without both, you are likely to be reading this board from your kitchen counter in between cranking out resumes!
214 here. In no way did I intend to indicate that I am superior to anyone. I am simply describing what I choose to do for a living (and where I do it) because it is relevant to this thread, and may answer some questions. For instance, all highly-paid contract attorneys (and, yes, I realize that "highly paid" is relative) are licensed and have some relevant experience and/or marketable skill other than law. No, unfortunately, health insurance is not part of the compensation, though there are ways to acquire it on a group basis (through a staffing agency or Bar Association, for instance). For the most part, Contract Attorneys are not treated as well as associates. We are nearly always the new kids in school, who will probably transfer out soon enough and may never be heard from again. High-profit corporate law hierarchies have little interest or time for encouraging respect without anything material to gain from it.
This is not a job for anyone who needs their ego stroked or who tends to leave their resume untouched for months or years at a time. This job is for independent thinkers who aren't afraid to hustle and who are highly capable of disregarding others' unprovoked contempt.
For the record, I have a lot of friends who are lawyers, and several of these are successful corporate associates/partners. I do not believe that all corporate attorneys are "jerks" with insecurity complexes. However, I have met a highly disproportionate amount of envy, suspicion and compulsive competition in these places, coupled with a dearth of tact, grace and basic social skills. Some people really enjoy working in large firms, and find ways to thrive. But I think that every lawyer should ask themselves if this is the sort of place to which they want to marry themselves, that's all.
Holy crap. What happened to this thread?
1) Lots of people who go to lower ranked skills are really smart and really great attorneys. Proportionally, you are better off going to a top-ranked school, but there are many chaps from lower ranked schools who are brilliant, very professional attorneys, and do just fine.
2) Staff and contract attorneys are great people. Some of them are just in transition, some are foreigners waiting for their license, and some just want less stress & more freedom. Bless them. Some want to make associate eventually, and some are happy where they are. Some of those who want to be associates don't have the chops and will need to adjust themselves to a slightly lesser practice in a smaller market; some will rise above all and become partner at a huge, great firm. May everyone achieve their dreams and happiness.
3) All races are equal genetically. Lots of smart black dudes, lots of smart Mexicans and South Americans, and lots of smart white dudes. Everyone chill...Nazis.
214-11:36, nice to see an honest post here, 215-11:55, please take your meds before you check in with us again, ever.
224-1:43, stick to singing Kumbaya and don't clog up the site with your races being equal genetically and other pre-approved crappola.
The willingness of individuals on this blog to be baited is laughable ... or pitiable. Optimistically, I'll say that everyone is an informed actor just letting off steam and 'engaging' in the back and forth. Because I would be extremely depressed if I found out that a cohort of supposedly intelligent men and women couldn't tell the difference between authentic comments and trolling. Jesus H. Christ superstar this was a messy set of posts.
Yawn. It's always the same old stuff. The Big Law snobs say something snobby. Some dork says something about guys from his high school (even though that joke was over a few months ago). Then some weirdo law students posts in attempt to convince himself that his life will somehow be different than any other attorney's typically pathetic existence.
Not that it really needs to be said, but get over yourselves. Seriously, as a normal person who works for a so-called swanky big law firm, I am so bored and tired of this stuff. Nobody that I actually consider interesting gives a shit that I work there.
Finally, please just let the Staff Attorneys have their moment of glory, because they sure the hell aren't getting it from the firm.
Yawn. It's always the same old stuff. The Big Law snobs say something snobby. Some dork says something about guys from his high school (even though that joke was over a few months ago). Then some weirdo law students posts in attempt to convince himself that his life will somehow be different than any other attorney's typically pathetic existence.
Not that it really needs to be said, but get over yourselves. Seriously, as a normal person who works for a so-called swanky big law firm, I am so bored and tired of this stuff. Nobody that I actually consider interesting gives a shit that I work there.
Finally, please just let the Staff Attorneys have their moment of glory, because they sure the hell aren't getting it from the firm.
Anyone who is posting here after 8pm really needs to get a life
Hm ... or maybe, they (we) our busy during the day and don't have time to half-ass it at work and scroll through legal blogs?
Is this just ironic trolling on your part ... if so 10/10
'our''. hmmmmm... intentional to invoke pedantic spelling war corrections or earnest mistake/ mysery wrapped in mysery.
or not!
can we all agree that 23-year-old law students are in no position to comment on career choices?
we're all very impressed that you go to a good law school. you probably know a ton about international human rights law.
now run along... grown-up talk.
DC BigLaw firm, hired at end of 2006 for 95K. Bonus of 10K or 20K, depending on your billables. I was hired as part of a big push to "standardize" the SA program, i.e. focus on the document production aspect of the law. Mainly performed doc review, priv log, and not much chance for anything else because of a glut of SAs. There was no expectation that any of us would ever make associate. Hard to make an impression or get better work when you're all fighting for the same. Some SAs who had been there for longer did more work, such as "managing" large productions, special assignments, whatever. They had mostly been hired before the big push (see above).
Left to join small firm as an associate.
Thanks for the comment, 233. Take a pay cut when you lateralled?
Who's the cutie in the pic?
GW = AU
GULC >GW
Any questions? (Wait for it...wait for it!!!!)
Two words from a minority lawyer...F$%^ Biglaw.
I have spoken to almost every lawyer at Milbank, and everyone has confirmed that not a single staff attorney has been let go. In fact, they have been stepping up the hiring.
I am a 3L at American and am black. I have a 3.15 GPA. Where should I apply. Thanks you in advance.
Another DCBigLaw firm. Hired right out of law school. Started at 100k with 5k bonus. Upped to 105k with potential of 5-10k bonus. Generally work 45 hour weeks with full benefits and 2 weeks vacation.
Next to no chance of SAs becoming associates. SAs have annual contracts with firm. Most SAs are ok with the situation and are happy being employed and being paid well. SAs are, however, the ugly stepchildren of the firm - invited to most firm events, but not treated the same.
Firm also has an off-site doc review location with lots of SAs and temps. Minimal interaction between those SAs and SAs in firm's downtown offices.
Firm is nice enough to post its SAs on firm website, with most being referred to as associates. Most SAs simply move on to other firms, with some becoming associates at BigLaw firms. Others go to smaller firms or to gov't.
Generally, the SA position is great for money and a relatively comfortable work schedule (unless there is an actual trial). Resume-wise, it's nice-looking addition, but there's very little upward mobility as an SA in the firm.
Basically staff attorneys would not get pissed on as much as they do if AIPAC would step up and get involved.
Speaking of AIPAC.....
Is AIPAC really going to stand by and let Barack HUSSEIN Obama get elected?
234,
Took a huge pay cut when I lateralled. Being an SA granted almost no substantive experience, and it was somewhat difficult to sell my experience to firms when I was interviewing toward the end of my SA tenure. Overall, though, I am much happier with my life.
Looking at my old firm's website, I see that most of my former coemployees are still SAs. I think one becomes accustomed to the money, which makes it harder to leave, even though you hate yourself and your job.
I work at a large NYC firm and my practice group has several staff attorneys. At least a few of our current associates started as staff attorneys and were bumped to "regular" associates. Another is trying to do the same right now. Here it seems like a way to get your foot in the door if you didn't have the resume to get a summer associate position.
11:01:
Are we really gonna stand by and let you get away with saying shit like that, or are we going to beat the living shit out of you?
245,
You should beat the shit out of yourself. Not everyone's infatuated with electing a terrorist and his black supremacist wife.
229 - "8pm" = 5pm on the best coast. Also, sometimes when working late, I spend my 5 mins/hr breaks checking out things on the web, like ATL.
I'm a staff attorney in DC. I make just over $100K (including bonus). I think my firm is somewhat unusual in that SA's responsibilities run from basic document review all the way through associate level work. I feel underpaid at the moment, but have better large case experience than most actual associates... I think it will be a problem for the firm in the long run because they'll lose their talent to places that pay better and offer more opportunities for advancement.
I'm a staff attorney in DC. I make just over $100K (including bonus). I think my firm is somewhat unusual in that SA's responsibilities run from basic document review all the way through associate level work. I feel underpaid at the moment, but have better large case experience than most actual associates... I think it will be a problem for the firm in the long run because they'll lose their talent to places that pay better and offer more opportunities for advancement.
I would actually like to meet one of these staff attorneys who became an associate. Anyone? Are you out there? Or are you just a legal legend?
You would be rare enough that you'd warrant your own ATL blog post.
250- I am not one, but as I mentioned above, I have friends who are. When they become associates, they start as first years even if they have been at the firm for a year or two.
244
251,
Thanks. So, what firm, what schools did they go to, what were they doing as SAs (doc review, more)? Details please. Especially the firm.
244: what firm are you at?
I'm not going to say what firm, but its a V20. The SAs tended to go to lower ranked schools (tier 2 or 3). Usually they were hired to fill a specific position or need at the firm. They did a lot of regulatory type work- filings, closings, etc. Some doc review, but not as a primary role. Like I said above, it seems like the firm is willing to treat it like an extended interview if the SA is assertive and expresses a desire to work toward becoming an associate.
does anyone know how much Sa's get paid in Chicago? Thanks
254: if you're not going to say the firm then I'll have to take what you say with a grain of salt, but thanks anyway. Moreover, the SA positions you're describing sound distinctlly different than the discovery/document SA positions anecdotally being developed more and more by firms. Did the SAs bring more experience with them than fresh law school grads?
In other words, SA hired to review docs = no associate. SA hired to fulfill specific substantive role = maybe associate.
256-
The SAs were fresh out of law school. However, when they applied for the jobs, I believe the job description portrayed a more robust role (i.e. you could tell from the job description that it wasn't just doc review).
Incidentally, sorry I can't say the firm, but I'm sure you can imagine my reluctance.
254
Is SA a relatively recent phenomenon? I ask because I had never heard of this before a few years ago and certainly not when I graduated law school in 1990. If I had, I would definitely had checked it out because apparently I could have made a lot more money at it than the low-paying insurance defense work I did for 9 years before being "laid off" because I didn't make partner.
Also, how does one find out about these positions? None of the headhunters I've dealt with ever mentioned SA, although a few did contract work (much lower paid) and I don't think I've ever seen an ad for an SA, at least in Philly. Maybe SA is only in larger cities/firms like in NYC and Wash DC?
Few questions:
1. are SA jobs listed in the career sections of the firm websites?
2. for the SA's, how did you get the job? (please ignore juvenile ramblings, it only encourages them) did you respond to a posting, try for a regular associate job, or start as a contract atty?
I know a staff atty at Sidley-NY that is now a regular associate. But she's got great academics, and not in litigation.
254,
Why would your firm have such a hiring practice? It sounds like (at least some) of the SAs are doing associate level work, but they surely aren't being billed out at associate level rates. The firm isn't making as much money as it could! As to the SA position being an "extended interview" of sorts, aren't all associate positions "extended interviews?"
Is this pure economics? I imagine that, even at a lower biling rate, it's cheaper to keep an SA for a year or two before they leave than it is to keep an associate for the same length of time. I think the firm's reputation will suffer over time for this, but it's probably all related to that other post today about how firms are realizing they all can't be in the "big leagues."
259,
1. Whether the firm posts the SA position on its website probably varies firm by firm.
2. I got my SA job by being a diligent doc review drone when I did contract work for the firm. I let it be known to the SAs I worked with that I would willing to join their ranks. A few months pass (6, 7?) and a few interviews later, I get hired, only to realize that I've made a terrible, terrible decision.
I'm an associate at a BigLaw firm, and know of at least two junior associates who were previously staff attorneys.
Skadden's staff attorney page. seems to be a NY/DC thing for them:
http://www.skadden.com/recruiting/recruitingContent.cfm?p=34&c=398
This is just pathetic:
Skadden Arps staff attorneys are hired to support the Firm's large litigation matters, with responsibilities including document review, deposition digesting, and creating deposition outlines and privilege logs.
Sounds to me like anyone with no ambition and a sub par IQ should apply.
Again, can ANYONE name a firm where SAs have been promoted to associates. Don't say you work there. Don't give details. Just say the name of the firm!
Why is this so hard?!
266 - Paul Weiss has promoted SAs to full associate status. Rare but it has happened.
NYC SA here, work 35 to 40 hours a week on average, except during crunches (which dont happen too often), no weekends, do no doc review, mostly research and some writing, make $130 K, 4 weeks vacation and same benefits as associates....
The majority of these comments are absolutely moronic.
I'm a BigLaw SA and a Top10 grad and the majority of my fellow SAs are Top10 grads as well. They don't take just any imbeciles off the street to be SAs.
And for those questioning why someone would want to be a SA rather than an associate? I laugh at this. Perhaps because my day is billable from the moment I log on to my computer in the comfort of my apartment to the moment I shut it down at 5 p.m. Perhaps because I don't have to deal with screaming partners, bipolar judges, spending thirty hours on drafting something when my time will be cut to ten hours, angry clients, last-minute motions, cancelled vacations or any of the other oh-so-rewarding parts of litigation practice that I endured for six years. I've been an associate; I've made the higher salary and had the "intellectually satisfying" and challenging assignments and the "thrill" of arguing a motion in court. It was complete, soul-depleting misery. Sure, there are about three people who enjoy the work. The rest of you are 2nd years or still in law school and you want to believe that it's all worth it. Good luck and we'll see you in three years when we oversee you as a contract attorney.
SAs do not want to get "promoted" to the hell that is being an associate. That's a bloody demotion. So please, take your holier-than-thou intellectual superiority and stick it up your over-stressed a$$. I'm going to the beach to bill two hours using my laptop and my wireless card...
269, can I ask what your compensation package and hours are like?
269, the only reason why I ask is because I posted at 268, and have been an SA at the same firm for 7 years now and want to compare to someone who went from associate to SA...
how common is it for staff attorneys to telecommute?
full-time? not common at all i dont think -- although alot work from home a couple of days a month i would say...
While I see the difficulties of making the jump from an SA to an associate within your own firm, does anyone know if the same difficulties occur when trying to make the jump from an SA at BigLaw Firm X to an associate at BigLaw Firm Y? This is assuming, of course, that you are honest about your previous position. Thanks.
I'm doing the temp thing right now, been doing it for a few months. Any recommendations for a decent firm to try to get in as a SA in DC area? Also, are there opportunities to get substantive work a little outside the standard SA doc review practice -- working on a BigLaw firm's pro bono program, for example?
I am currently a staff attorney and in the process of being considered for a senior staff attorney position. My question is: What is a low- and high-threshold salary for such a position? Right now, I gross at about 100K and have no idea what my firm pays senior staff attorneys. Thanks in advance!
All of the ill-endowed guys on here with something to prove make me embarrassed to be an attorney. These are the soulless pricks who are 200 pounds at age 45, bald, with coffee breath and high cholesterol. I live to work, not vice versa, and look forward to continuing to make a great living as an attorney while pursuing a rich and fun life outside of my work. Anyone who thinks that BigLaw automatically makes them God is automatically devoid of what it means to be cool.
All of the ill-endowed guys on here with something to prove make me embarrassed to be an attorney. These are the soulless pricks who are 200 pounds at age 45, bald, with coffee breath and high cholesterol. I live to work, not vice versa, and look forward to continuing to make a great living as an attorney while pursuing a rich and fun life outside of my work. Anyone who thinks that BigLaw automatically makes them God is automatically devoid of what it means to be cool.
All of the ill-endowed guys on here with something to prove make me embarrassed to be an attorney. These are the soulless pricks who are 200 pounds at age 45, bald, with coffee breath and high cholesterol. I work to live, not vice versa, and look forward to continuing to make a great living as an attorney while pursuing a rich and fun life outside of my work. Anyone who thinks that BigLaw automatically makes them God is automatically devoid of what it means to be cool.
All of the ill-endowed guys on here with something to prove make me embarrassed to be an attorney. These are the soulless pricks who are 200 pounds at age 45, bald, with coffee breath and high cholesterol. I work to live, not vice versa, and look forward to continuing to make a great living as an attorney while pursuing a rich and fun life outside of my work. Anyone who thinks that BigLaw automatically makes them God is automatically devoid of what it means to be cool.
Obviously I meant 'work to live'. Also, I meant to post my comment 72965 times. Thank you.
Gentlemen at my club used to justify their lives by belittling others and assuming their education translated into actual skill. It was no big deal.
Shook Hardy & Bacon has promoted SAs to associates.