holy shnikes first!

what general counsel would ever send work to pogo? if there is a chance your firm could shut down in a few months, would you risk it?

this is bad bad bad news for pogo.

PoGO all-stars. Hehe, like winning the special olympics.

Dude, I want to be an all star. Lebron James aint got nuthin on me!

11:21(2) - You are not first.

Sincerely,
11:21(1)

boo hoo hoo

So since they don't start until Jan 5, does that mean 2009 is their stub year w/ no bonus?

seriously - I'll take 2500 a month to nothing.

Shoot - do a little double dipping and get a temp job for two months.

pop the fark on that clacker

Rumor has it that the Chicago office of Seyfarth has postponed start dates.

uh, PoGo is nothing like King & Spalding.

and 11:21(1): yes, you were first today, congrats. may the rest of your day be as douchy as you are.

Yours truly, 11:21(2)

First year associates to January 1, 2010!!

What rank out of Chicago for PoGo?

If this was me - I would NoGo to PoGo. $2500/mo?! With student loans, how could you afford to eat?

Guys in my high school aspired to be PoGo all stars all the time. It was no big deal.

$2,500 a month? My wife, who is a teacher, gets more than that to sit at the pool club for 3 months, every summer.

11:21(2) and 11:37(2) (noticing a trend?) - Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Yours Truly,
11:21(1) & 11:24

11:44: I imagine they will be able to defer due to unemployment, but who knows.

This could be a great opportunity to do something really different for a few months, but it SUCKS to get such late notice, and it would make me awfully nervous about whether a job would exist in January. I would definitely start reinterviewing immediately after the bar. I imagine this is probably management's desire, since, while this is pretty bad PR, laying first years off outright would be even worse.

I have no idea if they are POGO stars or not but I would venture a guess that the associates starting on time would likely be in the areas of POGO that are still busy - lit, IP, etc. But that is just a guess.

But who wouldn't take 2500/mth with the ability to wait tables and/or bartend

I heard that! PoGo to dissolution...

waiting tables = easiest job in america. No excuse for shitty service. This plus 2500/month for doing nothing ITCR.

"waiting tables = easiest job in [a]merica" = 11:54 never waited tables.

I think of it more as an easier way to get laid waiting tables than reviewing documents.

11:56 - I have waited tables and it is the easiest job in America. Thanks for playing.

-11:54.

PoGo is not the only southern firm pushing start dates back...put a call into Kilpatrick Stockton and ask them how things are going.

Do the fans get to vote on the All-Stars or are they selected by the managers? Is there a "Final Vote" like in baseball? Is there an All-Star game where the PoGo All-Stars square off against each other? Is the location of the PoGo World Series determined by the outcome of this game?

Or is it just possible that people who do good work get more work coming to them, just like they would in any business?

I think the guest who said that those starting early are in areas that are still busy (11:50(1)) probably has the nail hit on the head. How could someone be designated as a some kind of "all-star" before they've even done a stitch of real, actual legal work?

"11:56 - I have waited tables and it is the easiest job in America." = 11:54 waited tables at Friendly's.

11:44 - student loans are for the proletariat.

The only hard thing about waiting tables is ego management (diners, hosts, busboys, etc.). However, ego management is integral to any non-janitorial job and ultimately poses no "special" challenge. I concur in the opinion that waiting tables is the easiest job in America.

Hon. J. Pink

12:01=11:54

It could be practice-group related. That is what Thacher Proffitt is doing (delaying start dates for non-litigators).

Or it could be that there are "All Stars." At some firms, H-Y-S grads get to pick what group they will be in (even when the firm's "official" policy is that you can't pick, you're assigned.)

$2500 at least shows some faith...They get points for that.

Late notice sucks though for people moving and buying houses. Add up student loans, credit card debts, and cost of insurance...and its a drop in the bucket. They could of at least given a weeks salary.

Uh, the K&S comparison from the PoGo "tipster" is a joke, a clear attempt to try to save PoGo from further bashing. PoGo is a sinking ship.

mcalpin, if you are reading this (and i assume you have time and inclination to, since not much law is being practiced at your turdshack)--you better respond to lat's email and set the record straight!

Wasn't this Firm allegedly in talks with WCSR?

i think 11:50 and 11:58 have the credited responses. pogo all-stars? that's silly. pogo litigation starting earlier than pogo corporate? that makes sense.

12:03(2) = K&S human resources employee

11:21(1)/11:24/11:49:

I don't hate you, I just think you are douchey. You sure are good at the game, though.

Regards,

11:21(2)/ 11:37(2)

the comparison between pogo and K&S's allstar system is not to enhance pogo's image. the allstar system merely gives preferential treatment to those associates that the partners feel are "better" than other associates. so if last summer some summer asses stood out, those are the ones i am guessing have been designated all-stars and will be starting work on schedule.

Did Seyfarth really push back start dates?

"12:01=11:54"

Uh, no, Peg.

- 12:01

Am Law 200 is littered with TTT firms such as PoGo. The best thing we can say about PoGo is that it sucks big time. Go figure.

Didn't womble also have layoffs? Where are their start dates at?

12:08 - what are their start dates?

ATL isn't some cheesy Fat Joe commercial.

Recruiting 101 by PoGo:

1. Layoff associates during the summer program;

2. Delay start dates just a few weeks before Fall on-campus recruiting starts;

3. Kiss firm goodbye

King & Spalding all-stars????

This is the first I've heard of such a thing, and I've been trying to do a good job researching the Atlanta firms beyond just what their PR and recruiters say. If anyone here knows more details about this informal system, please give details!

Top 10% at a T10 school... is this going to give me instant "all-star" status? Or will it depend on how I get along with the partners in my practice group? What happens to the non-chosen ones?

(Comments beyond how Atlanta is a "joke of a ciTTTy" and that I should go somewhere else etc. are especially appreciated.)

The easiest job in America was my high school summer job working the snack hut on the 9th hole of a golf course.

A foursome came by every 10 minutes or so and generally wanted a few sodas or beers and maybe a hot dog. Tips were always good because lots of guys were trying to be a big spender in front of colleagues or customers, etc. Oh, and every so often a group of girls in bikinis would come down from the pool to get ice cream...

I should have made a career of it.

12:13 - i suggest getting a high rise condo and having to go to the gym in 26 minutes.

12:13 -- There is no formal K&S All-Stars, or any such thing. I suppose the point is that some associates get treated better than others, though that sure seems subjective. Can't imagine that is not the case everywhere in the world. But unlike PoGo, K&S is not planning to delay start dates for "disfavored" new lawyers -- that is just plain crazy.

Some of you people are ridiculous. Of course the best associates get the best work. Duh. In other news, Chipper Jones starts at third base over Omar Infante. I guess Bobby Cox thinks some hitters are "better" than others.

Did someone suggest Kilpatrick is having trouble?

I thought they were about to hit it big with some Indian case.

Basically, if you were one of the associates whose start date was deferred, you are already f---ed.

Since you are not "all star" enough for them to bother actually hiring you when originally agreed, your employment come January is obviously far from guaranteed as well, and your future at the firm is in any case a step short of star crossed - before you have even arrived, a judgment has been made that you are not one of the best of the incoming class!

Look for other work while you get your $2500 kids. And if you're a summer there, start considering where to look for 3L interviews now...

12:17(2): completely agree.

Hmmm...I can't afford to bring in all 12 of the incoming first-years on time, but I can bring in three of them. Which ones do I bring in? Perhaps the ones I most want to avoid losing? That's not rocket science.

12:16, you had it pretty good. I had a sweet gig too. In college, my best friend and I were responsible for taking the student newspaper to all of the off-campus distribution bins and collecting whatever leftovers were still there from the previious issue (e.g. restaurants, bars, stores, etc. Of course, no one off-campus was ever interested in reading the student newspaper, so everytime we went to a location ALL of the papers from last time were still there. We were basically trashmen who produced our own garbage. The job took about four hours twice a week and we got ten bucks an hour. After a few weeks, we'd just pick up the papers from the student newspaper offices and take them directly to the recycling bin. We'd spend the next three hours and forty five minutes drinking beer and playing pool. I wish I still had that job.

Honest? Perhaps not, but we got our job done and the paper didn't much care because they still got to boast their b.s. circulation numbers for their advertisers.

My advice: don't wait to cash those $2500 checks, and don't write any of your own before the Pogo check clears the bank.

If the my firm tells me...I can start October, November, or January, should I be worried that they are in financial trouble? If they really had work for me, wouldn't they be demanding I start on time?

My non-NYC firm (V100) has pushed back most of our start dates until March 15, 2009. They've threatened us not to talk about it, but I expect word will soon get out. We will get paid $4,500 per month until then. No bonuses in 2009 though.

Nobody answered my question. What rank out of CLS, Chi, NYU for this firm?

12:13: If it makes you feel better, I work at K&S and its the first time I've heard of "all-stars" too. Its a fiction.

(Note that partners who like a particular associate's work a lot tend to call that associate more often, but I'm pretty confident that happens at every firm in America.)

12:13: If it makes you feel better, I work at K&S and its the first time I've heard of "all-stars" too. Its a fiction.

(Note that partners who like a particular associate's work a lot tend to call that associate more often, but I'm pretty confident that happens at every firm in America.)

12:33: Way to step-up. My bet is there are a lot of firms that have pushed start dates back...even if just a month or two and probably a number of them into 2009. We need a thread...perhaps its this one...where we can out all these firms cloking their "deferral of start dates."

This IS at-will employment...If they can just push our start dates back at their choosing, they should at least have to deal with the PR ramifications of such.

Remember everyone, before it imploded, Brobeck offered people either a pre-start cancellation severance package, or a pushed back start date. (I think one or two other firms did this as well during the dot bomb.)

The people who chose the later start date rather than the money got badly f---ed. If your firm is deferring your start date, you'd better start looking for something else to do now - assuming that your new start date is a sure thing is a sure way to end up unemployed for a lot longer than you expect.

12:08, yes they did.

Thanks to all who responded so far regarding the K&S all-star situation.

I do want to work in Atlanta, and from what I've heard so far, K&S (and to almost the same extent, A&B) is where to be for job security and good work, even if the market tanks. But if it wouldn't matter either way if I wasn't for whatever reason one of their Chosen Ones, that might change the calculus somewhat.

But if it's generally a meritocracy, or if it's something you won't necessarily blow by handing in one mediocre assignment during the summer, then that's fine... and seems standard.

Thanks (~~ 12:13)

McAlpin's response:

Although the reason for your interest in our internal business operations is a mystery to me, in an effort to prevent you from publishing a ridiculous date with respect deferred start dates I can tell you the following.

As a result of the general economic situation and its effect on law firms, including our firm, we have needed to reduce operating expenses this year. This has included a deferred start dates for non-All-Star incoming associates.

We have, unfortunately, also had to deferred start dates for non-All-Star incoming associates in practice areas most affected by the current state of the economy. The number of non-All-Star associates involved in this action was less than 10. Jim McAlpin

Now that the Ramseys have been cleared by DNA, can't Lin Wood put all these people to work suing every media outlet that's ever reported on the Jon Benet killings? Wood's Media Circus practice group is going togrow by leaps and bounds, baby! Just think of all the billable hours associates can rack up powdering Lin's bald head before yet another tedious appearance on Larry King.

Regarding the "all-star system" -

I doubt it's a system, just the way every firm (and business) operates. If you do good work, and develop a reputation for doing good work, partners will always want to staff you on their projects. You'll be given more and more responsibility everywhere. If you do bad or mediocore work you won't get the same opportunities. This happens everywhere and unless you're a supreme court clerk or a sears prize winner (or have some comparable credential) you usually have to prove yourself like everyone else.

The different start dates are probably for different practice groups.

Even assuming the "all-star" system exists, how can PG determine who is and is not worthy based solely on the previous summer's work? Summer is bullshit and really only for figuring out who the real slackers/misfits/social incompetents are. Everyone else general gives enough effort to be hired. Sometimes you have kids go over the top. But I wouldn't identify someone as an "all-star" because of it. That's what's expected of you as a lawyer every day. Certainly wouldn't move up a start date because of it.

12:1 - there are a handful of firms that have laid off associates during the summer program. I know of someone (at the other KS) that has been laid off and rumors are there are more to come (if they didn't already happen) in other departments - but these are stealth lay-offs so they are not making the headlines on ATL

There won't be any layoffs at Kilpatrick after they fleece the government for billions on behalf of those injured injuns. The fire water will be flowng on the reservation that day, I tell you.

My start date has been put back until 2055.

12:29 = nervous and starting to lose hair

$2500 per month to do nothing? That's peanuts compared to what Pogo pays its partners to do jack squat. To be fair, though, those partners have to at least pretend to be busy. And some of them are damn good at it.

12:33 - March? SIX MONTHS deferred? Dude, that's not an offer, that's a "don't call us, we'll call you."

Is it true that PoGo is selling used furniture at the back of its office building? I could use a new desk.

1:40, how dare you spread such a malicious rumor. They need that furniture for kindling once the weather gets cold.

1:40 -- truly outrageous; PoGo is only renting the used furniture, not selling it.

There delays are probably practice group based. My bet is that none of the Real Estate/Capital Markets associates are starting on time.

I wanted to be a litigator (and will be, post-clerkship in Fall '09) before all this started so my plans are unaffected.

Are people with transactional preferences reconsidering litigation now? I would be . . .

12:49(2) - Why not also look at some of the national firms with large presences there (like JD and PH)?

I'd rather have a stick in my eye and $2500/mth. than work in the Atlanta offices of Paul Hastings or Jones Day.

2:00, I heard PoGo is actually selling the furniture they rented on craigslist.

why so much hate for pogo?

If this is not practice group related the it is a terrible HR move on PoGo's part. Good talent is hard to find and something you don't want to lose. PoGo is risking the loss of all the associates they deferred. It would be interesting to know what James McAlpin was thinking.

To 12:13, who said "Top 10% at a T10 school... is this going to give me instant "all-star" status?"

No.

I work at pogo and know our incoming class. Those who are slated to start earlier are by no means the "allstars" of that summer class. Rather, they are the ones in practice groups that actually have work right now.

I had to laugh at the comment about pogo paying partners a lot more than $2500 a month to do nothing, and yes, there are a lot who are quite good at it.

I have an awesome resume because I used to be a Pogo All-Star. I said that because Pogo All-Star is an awesome credential.

Not just Atlanta, Washington too

Apparently it is not practice group related. One associate slated to start in real estate was moved to corporate just so he could start early, while other real estate associates were pushed back to Jan.

Powell Goldstein? Never heard about it. Are they the mid-majors of law firms?

The "all star" whining is a little sad. Truly. I don't know jack about the pogo situation because I left Atlanta a while ago. But here's what you need to understand about Atlanta law firms -- there is just not a lot of talent or money to go around.

I went to a T5 law school, and only about 3 people from my graduating class went to Atlanta, 2 to K&S. So, the pool of talented people is very small. That's not to say Georgia State grads can't be good or that Harvard grads are all good, because it's not true. But there's a strong correlation.

On the money side, the firms can't charge very much, because clients won't pay very much for an Atlanta law firm. So, K&S billing rates are about 60% what large firms in big cities can get. Therefore, Atlanta firms operate with the constant mindset of cutting corners wherever possible, and one source of dead weight are the really, really bad associates. Trust me, some of these people's work product is worse than I would expect out of an intelligent eighth grader.

What's sad is that these people don't realize how much they suck. Do they really think that by graduating top 50% at Vandy that they're smart and impressive? Because they don't understand what's going on, they then invent rumors about how the system is stacked against them and they were cursed from the start.

And that, folks, is the origin of the K&S "all stars." Anyone who uses that term seriously deserves to be ridiculed.

7:28 - thanks, appreciate the insight.

@2:53 - The hate has been around for a number of years. Just like most firms, there are internal power struggles, but Pogo's are much more divisive and public, at least in ATL. It's not a bad firm, it's just not K&S or A&B, just like K&S and A&B aren't Wachtell or Cravath. Most of the hate probably comes from K&S and A&B junior associates that end up working 400 extra hours per year for pretty much the same money and, then, at the end of their 3-5 years of big firm life, end up in the same spot they would have been if they went to Pogo, SGR or AGG and worked less. Just my two cents. Please tear into me as you feel necessary.

I graduated in the top half of my class at Vandy. It's an awesome credential.

7:28, that inferior associates will complain and dream up excuses for their shortcomings is hardly unique to Atlanta. Just like everywhere else, some associates in Atlanta thrive, others -- even those with top 5 credentials -- don't. Those that don't don't think "gee, I guess I'm not that smart." They convince themselves that the deck was stacked against them.

8:48 -- don't kid yourself about the pay differential between K&S and Pogo. It's not like it was 5 years ago. With bonus, K&S senior associates are making considerably more than non-equity partners at Pogo. And the idea that having 4 years at K&S on your resume is the same thing as 4 years at Pogo is pretty laughable.

@8:19 - This is 8:48. My comment wasn't that senior associates at K&S are paid the same. My comment is that basically it ends up being a wash for most people, because they only stay 3-5 years in biglaw anyway. If you are going to make it past 5 years at K&S, that's great, rake in the dough then, but until that point I think most people would take $10k less per year for a lot less hours. Just my thought. Completely different story if you're talking out-of-town money, which you don't get at K&S.

9:37 -- I think the difference in comp. (incl. bonus) between K&S and PoGo for a 4th year is more like 20-30K now. Is that worth the extra hours? Depends, I guess, on how many hours and who you are. Seems to me that PoGo's low hours have nothing to do with a choice by the law firm's managment, however -- rather, they just don't seem to have enough business. If that is why a firm has low hours, then PoGo is not one of the mythical "lifestyle" firms; it is a dying firm. Not hating, just speaking the truth. Why would anyone choose to work at a firm that does not have enough work to continue to sustain itself at a high level of the field?

Indeed, 9:49. Believe me, Pogo associates aren't billing 1700 because that's all the partners want out of them. It's because that's all the work there is. I seem to recall that Pogo's minimum billable requirement is around 1950, which is in line with what the average K&S associate actually bills. Certainly K&S has many more associates billing at the 2300-2400 level, but then again, that's where the comp differences really kick in.

10:12, Hilarious post!

I left Pogo over a year ago due to lack of work in my group and was villified for it as being disloyal (I took some clients---go figure). However, there are a number of fabulous attorneys and staff still at Pogo and the current situation is very sad. I wish them the best as I sit here, very busy and happy, in my current firm. :)

8:19 -- My point wasn't that excuses are unique to Atlanta. This is what is at least unique to K&S, based on my subsequent experience -- (1) Naming the unfair system a "star" system, instead of just complaining that the firm was unfair to me by always making me work with partner X who is a real a$$; (2) There seem to me to be more bad associates in Atlanta than at big firms in NYC, Chicago, D.C., so the whining seems to be louder (but I concede that my experience is hardly universal).

In the end, though, the game is the same everywhere. Do good work and you'll get more of it. If you're in a strong practice area, your work can be slightly less good and you'll still be busy. If you're in a weak practice area, you have to do better work. Additionally, doing good work buys you more opportunities to pick and choose your assignments and who you work with. If you do bad work, you're more likely to get stuck with the bad partners and with document review.

2:14-- Your point doesn't really make sense in this case. A summer experience where these kids are doing work for different partners, practice groups, etc. is not enough time to identify the stars of the group.

wow - so much hate for this mid-sized Atlanta firm. Delaying start dates for groups that aren't busy plus a stipend sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea.