The Asia Chronicles: Exit Opportunities
You may have noticed that we’ve missed a few editions of the Asia Chronicles. Let’s just say that we’ve been unusually busy (which we will explain in a later edition in more detail).
The concept for this week is to answer a question we often receive: “What are my options after working at a law firm in Asia?” Of course, we didn’t come to Asia blind to the options that might lie ahead for us after working for several years here. Neither should you.
Before we get to options beyond our current employers, let’s address partnership for a minute. It’s not impossible. In the time we’ve been in Asia, we have seen our firms and others make a number of partners. As best we can tell, there are several ways to make partner, all of which involve at least some element of luck.
First, you can be related to a senior official in the Chinese government responsible for privatizations. This is a good way to amass a fortune in business and become indispensable. Second, you can just be an exceptional lawyer, capable of successfully navigating firm politics while billing 2,500 hours per year. Third, you can come up for partner at an A-list firm and then move to a B-list firm (still excellent) as a partner when you don’t make it. We could give some specific examples of each of these sorts of partners, but we might insult someone if we discussed what firms are A-list and which are B-list, so don’t ask us. This is similar to all the major legal markets — there is always a pecking order.
If you don’t manage to make partner out here, there are two other options as we see things. Find out what they are, after the jump.
These are the two options we have in mind: you can go in-house in Asia, or you can go home to a law firm. These days in Asia we have colleagues moving in-house quite often. Within a year of arriving here, each of us has had several opportunities to interview for positions with corporations, hedge funds, and private equity funds. We’re not interested — yet.
We discussed this concept with Evan Jowers and Robert Kinney of Kinney Recruiting. They told us about current and potential future possibilities in Asia at firms like TPG Axon, CCMP Capital Partners, Dell, Bain Capital, to name a few, as well as the usual suspects of major investment banks. According to Evan and Robert, there are also in-house opportunities available in U.S. and London markets for U.S. associates practicing in Asia.
What about returning to the United States or heading off to the U.K.? We firmly believe the skills we’re gaining here are fully transferable internationally. We’re handling the same sorts of transactions we would be handling in New York or London, only with more moving parts in many cases, and with the added complexity of working with Chinese-speaking clients and counterparties. Since many of our friends in New York are underutilized these days, we’re actually surpassing them quickly in developing our skills because we’ve remained relatively busy. By the time we are senior associates, if the current market conditions continue, we’ll be much more skilled than many of them.
“As long as the work U.S. associates are experiencing in Asia is high-end and at NYC level of complexity and challenge, then any mid-level to senior U.S. associate looking to move back to U.S. markets, or London, will be fine,” says Evan Jowers of Kinney. “There is a negative aspect of logistics in interviewing for NYC and London positions from Asia, but this negative can be more than outweighed by the plus of having experience in both Asia and U.S. markets, especially if the candidate has utilized Mandarin, Korean or Japanese while in practice abroad.”
“Another plus is that most partners at top U.S. and British firms recognize that associates hired for top-end firms’ busy overseas offices generally have had a higher level of responsibility than their counterparts in the U.S. and London markets,” Evan continues. “Working for a busy, top-end U.S. firm in Asia is less structured and more ‘fly by the seat of your pants,’ so in many cases a seventh-year associate in Asia will have higher level of experience than an associate at the same level in U.S. or London.”
“Obviously, one negative is that if an associate is very senior and at the level where he or she may start to have some small, budding book of business, moving from Asia to the U.S. will cause him or her to lose that book,” Evan explains. “On the other hand, the Asia and U.S. markets will be working more closely over the years to come, so there will be a lot more overlap and more Asia related work in the U.S. and London markets.”
Earlier: Prior installments of the Asia Chronicles (scroll down)
[Disclosure: Kinney Recruiting, which has made more placements of U.S. associates and partners in Asia than any other firm in the past two years, is the sponsor of this post.]
(34) 
Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
First to say tooo long to read
Asia Chronicles = Best part of ATL!!!
Kinney can kiss my Hinney.
useful info. thanks.
Actually, I didn't notice the absence. Because I, like 99% of ATL readers, didn't care. At all.
Does anyone know if there's a Do-not-call/do-not-email/do-not-lie-to-my-secretary-to-get-into-my-voicemail list for legal recruiters? Because those fuckers sometimes call twice a day.
Aaauuuughhhh Yeeeaaa! The Asia Chronicles Return!!
Keep up the good work, guys.
These posts are really useful and interesting. I think Evan is awesome.
The most important exit question:
If I impregnate a bunch of Asian locals, can those women come seek child support from me?
My guess is legally yes, but realistically no. Especially Chinese women, they'd have a damn hard time figuring out how to get over to the country and serve me.
Evan is the best recruiter in Asia, and I have no doubt he makes seven figures (in dollars), which is a lot more than you hater punks.
Kinney Recruiting should take some of that money and invest in a better website.
These posts blow. Time to bag these idiots, Lat.
Kinney Recruiting should take some of that money and invest in a better website. Their site looks and functions like a 7th grade homeroom project.
is the writer a native english speaker?
You should call this one "The China Chronicles" because you make no mention of Japan, Korea, or anywhere else. You must have friends in Japan you can get some information from.
Also, I don't care that you guys think you're smarter than a seventh year in NYC. All I care about is what a hiring partner thinks about a seventh year in Asia versus NYC.
The Asia Chroniclers should work on improving their writing.
First, don't write like you would talk.
"Before we get to options beyond our current employers, let's address partnership for a minute."
Second, work on your transitions. Everything is Asia, Asia, Asia, and then you start a paragraph by focusing on China. Where did that come from? Now I'm wondering whether all of the advice is China specific.
"First, you can be related to a senior official in the Chinese government responsible for privatizations."
Third, use fewer adverbs.
is Roger Lou studying for the bar exam?
4:59 - Your first rule may be true for briefs, but is not true for blogs. Blog writing should be conversational.
4:31--Lat is beholden to page views more than the commenters. By opening these articles you encourage this series.
tldr
are this jobs open to only t14 kids or can high preforming TTT kids from cooley or ave maria get sweet gigs in the wild east?
pecking order is bullshit
MONEY is what matters
$2 million a year at a B list firm pwn3ns the hell out of $1 milliion at A list
All the Asia Chronicles haters should just not read them, much less take time to post their hate.
Keep up the good work. Personally, I would like to hear more about work in the UAE, which is a very different asia, than is China-Japan-Korea-Singapore.
Co-sign 6:39.
ATL serves diverse constituencies. Some people like the Biglaw coverage. Some people like the SCOTUS gossip. Some people like the law school stuff.
Read what you like. Ignore what you don't.
No need to post vitriol. Save it for AutoAdmit.
Roger Lou is liking the Chinaman Chronicles and the disdain that is brings to the western community. He is thanking you to the friends of his and to Evan of Kinney's Hong Kong Recruiters.
- HLS = Best in Asia
- America's University = Best in U.S. of A.
- Evan = Best in Kinney
will someone confirm if evan jower's is bob barr's runningmate in the presidential election?
so can 2nd tier grads with work exp with an AM250 firm make the jump to asia?
What is behind the red double doors? Please let it be two asian hookers with silky hair making out.
Sily haired hookers? I'm in!
Any chance of being hired as an associate at an investment bank after a few years of corporate law each in New York and in Asia?
what do i get for ten dollars? ev-ry-ting
July 2, 9.31pm - Yes, that is a move that you can make in either NYC or Asia.
There are a couple of very good reasons why coming to Asia, at least China/HK, can be a great legal career move. They all flow from the reality that Asia/China is growing at a very fast pace, which means deals at all levels from VC to PE to IPOs, and all the follow on capital market deals CBs, debt, structured products, and so on. Even with capital markets slowing down, PE is picking up a lot. The first thing this means is that there's an unending desperate shortage for good lawyers here. If you have language skills, particularly Mandarin, and you're a good lawyer, you'll have firms fighting to hire you and pay your housing, tickets home, kids school, etc. Even without language skills, if you're a good lawyer a firm will put you on a team with juniors who can translate and feed you the real questions (great way to get out of a lot of mundane diligence if you're still at that level). Most US lawyers here (associates and partners) work unbelievable hours because of the deal flow related demand. That's how firms make money while they're paying your housing and COLA, they run a lot of deals through you and your support team. The second implication is that the opportunities to escape the big firms into great business side jobs goes way beyond what you'll see in NY, London or elsewhere. The talent shortage runs across the professions here, not enough lawyers, not enough bankers, accountants, etc. If you're actually good at doing deals - and you'll get a lot of deal flow and you'll work at a higher level in the food chain than you would in NY - you can move to the business side much more easily than in other markets. Also, you can make this move much much earlier in your career than anywhere else, and probably earlier than you should. But if they're paying you and you're the best they can find, why not sack up and take the leap, worst case is you flop and go back to a firm. It's easy to back to a firm from a bank or a fund in Asia and may be harder to go back to the US but you'll be an interesting candidate in the US with a nice deal list and a good bank/fund on your resume. The exits available from big firm jobs into the business side makes it that much harder for firms to keep good associates and even some partners, which feeds back into the constant desperate demand for good lawyers. It probably is difficult to get back to the US, but I haven't run into many lawyers out here who actually want to go back - most came for a 2 year trial and like the career opportunities here much more than NY.
On to this blog/ad/whatever it is - it could be helpful to people looking to move. The old Greedy Associates board had an "international" page which never got enough consistent attention to get critical mass. I came out five years ago and had very little info to go on and would have appreciated having this page up. Anyone paying attention knows it's headhunters posting some of the info and sponsoring. Big deal, they have an interest in getting your resume. Don't send it if you don't want to. Downside is the sponsors won't call out bad and good firms themselves, which is one of the things GA NY was good for. Question is whether they'll live with guests posting real info on firms or will they censor so as to not offend potential clients.
Also fwiw, I'm amazed at the number of worthless posts on asian prostitutes and "jokes" about how Chinese people speak English. It's probably never going to go away, but it's an amazing waste of life to spend your time littering boards with that. What's the payback? You see your "joke" on the internet? Does it impress your friends? Aren't there chat rooms dedicated to that kind of thing or is a headhunter's blog the best outlet you can find? Doesn't make me want to go back to the US any sooner.
Just to see if this forum can get going on specific firm info I'm going to repost a message I wrote almost 3 years ago on HK firms. Some of it is probably still true, but I'm way more out of touch now and I'm sure some of this is dated - e.g. STB is much stronger now than they were then. Update it if you have info. Remember this is from Sept 2005 - Depends on the type of work. Capital markets is S&C S&S followed by the other NY firms who pick up a decent amount of this work: Skadden, STB, DPW, Cleary and some firms who pick up the scraps Sidley, etc. UK firms get a lot of this work but they're typically a bad fit for US lawyers because you just get the 144A Reg S portion of non-US deals. Nobody wants magic circle firms as lead on their US listings so US associates there get very narrow experience, and the M&A and private equity work is done by UK lawyers.
For VC tech deals and nasdaq listings think Latham, OMM, Mofo on the ground now and all the other California firms piling in. WSGR is starting an office soon in Shanghai and will be hiring a lot. Orrick just picked up a big group from the dissolving Coudert. All these firms are trying to rebuild the bubble days out in China, they're all looking to hire for mainland offices, some hiring in HK. QOL is supposed to be better in these firms than the NY capital markets firms and the offices back in the US seem to support their growth plans, but you have to like that VC type work. These firms don't do real capital markets work.
If the choice is limited to Skadden, Latham and Simpson I'd try to get a broader set of choices because there are a lot of firms hiring and you probably can look more broadly. But to answer your question, it's a tough call between Latham and Simpson, but I'd take Latham.
Skadden is supposed to be a brutal place to work, unbearable screamers, massive associate turnover, I heard they've been rotating short timers out from their Houston office to cover the losses and that they've been unable to hire - be careful. On the plus side - if you want huge energy deals, Skadden's the firm, they advised on the big SOE priviatizations and had a big role in the failed CNOOC Chevron merger, they seem to have energy cornered in China.
Simpson pays at the top of the scale - NY salary plus 80K plus NY bonus. Because of this, they don't hire enough associates so everyone there gets worked to death. The do a lot of Korea and Taiwan work but their China practice is a bit thin - no mainland offices, one partner who does PRC work along with his Taiwan work and not much support from headquarters back in the US to build much more than they already have on the ground now. I doubt they'll ever be strong in China work.
Latham is just now ramping up in HK/China. They've had a sleepy Hong Kong office for several years, doing a little project finance here and there and some private equity, almost no capital markets. In the past year or so they've started to ramp up for China, they've done a number of nasdaq listings including company side for Baidu just last month. In addition they just this week poached a senior associate and a mid-level from STB (which bizarrely made it into "the Deal" this week). I'm pretty sure Latham doesn't pay as much as STB, but you should definitely talk to these two guys for why they made the move. LW beats STB and SA in my book because they look like they have support from back home to grow into something. They're not there yet, but they're much more dynamic than STB and SA as far as China goes.
Final point, if you work for one of these three firms in the US, when you come out to HK/China every firm will take a good long look at you. Everyone's trying to build China practices, there aren't enough Mandarin speaking US associates to go around. It's a good place to be, you should have a pick of firms, look very broadly at all you options when you're ready to make your move.