Akron for an IP LLM. I'm serious, but expect the jeering to begin any moment.

I've seen several lawyers at my IP only firm with LLMs from better schools than their JDs were from, FWIW.

If you get an LLM frims know you couldn't get a job out of law school. You should get better grades in law school. or check out ABL alternative careers section because you are an idiot.

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I don't know how it is in the world of IP, but if you specialize, say in ERISA, it really is beneficial to you to get the LLM.

I'm T14-middle-of-my-class '07, working as a patent examiner because I couldn't get a job in IP. Would a LLM in IP be a bad idea, because my resume already says I couldn't get a job out of law school.

1:07 = nerd in denial.

Friend of mine was in the same boat, middling grades from a mid-first tier school. She got an LLM in IP and got a job at a very good large firm. A job that she wouldn't otherwise have gotten with her law school grades, etc.

LLMs are a waste. Everyone knows book knowledge doesn't equal experience or real world knowledge. The only thing ones from top schools sometimes are good for is compensating for a JD from a TTT.

What about an LLM in jurisprudence or general studies from a top-3 school? How rigorous are the admission requirements to schools like Harvard and Yale? Would an LLM from an Ivy aid in firm hiring and/or clerkships?

I missed the boat on an earlier topic, which I’d like to address now:

Despite the way in which we tease one another about this website, its commentators, and its two excellent contributors, I think that there is a serious journalistic element to ATL that shouldn’t be passed over during the search for a new editor. The development and perpetuation of an active legal blogosphere is something that our generation has barely begun to deal with, and, like any new concept, its maturation has been awkward. The autoadmit scandal, the Sapphic kiss, and the reputations of dozens of firms: the learning curve has been steep, yet worthwhile.

Even if Lat stopped blogging tomorrow, transparency in the legal world would be his legacy – and it’s a legacy every bit as powerful as a formidable judge, a seasoned litigator. ATL’s muckraking efforts have not been unnoticed: in many ways, the legal community is at the beck-and-call of ATL, this monopoly on important information that’s often presented in a lighthearted way. ATL’s status as the only website of its kind makes it more troublesome. If Lat wanted to go to war with Spain tomorrow, he might be able to do so.

I may be in the minority here, but I couldn’t care less about shtick or humor from the new editors. I want someone who understands the gravity of this blog’s information and its role in the legal world, and continues to expand and develop it accordingly. That’s why I cast my vote for Alex, who perfectly understands both the comic and serious elements of this wonderful blog.

I work for a large IP firm. If you want a patent position (prosecution or litigation) you need a science background (i.e. be patent bar eligible). Or a few decades of exceptional litigation experience, which you do not have.

As for TM people, their backgrounds are as diverse as those of "normal" lawyers, which means that they have to have good law school credentials, etc.

In my opinion, an LLM will not help you get an IP patent job (unless, perhaps, if you have a foreign law degree AND a science background) and it will do nothing to enhance your TM credentials.

Your experience may be different in a GP firm with an IP practice or in a smaller firm, but I think you pretty much have to be lucky to score a good TM gig. Your best bet may be networking with local Tm lawyers and seeking their advice and help.

LLM's are valuable, but not as valuable as LLM-JSD's. If you want to do Patent/IP, you need the LLMJSD.

It can be hard to break in to trademark & copyright practice, LLM or no LLM. Practice groups within big firms tend to be very proprietary about whom they let in and whom they allow to work on their matters, and the boutiques frequently seem to be looking for people (even very junior associates) who already have tons of experience. It might be worthwhile taking the time to work, say, in the rights management department of a company, such as a record label, publisher, pharmaceutical, or consumer products company, if you can't land the job that you want just yet. (And this position does not have to be as a lawyer.) There's a big difference between "school IP" and "real IP," and if you want to practice the more you can keep your resume focused on "real IP" the better.

If you have a JSD, can you rightfully demand to be called "Doctor"?

IP is not in the cards, i suggest looking into insurance defense

LLM is usually good for putting a First Tier at the top of your resume, in hopes of wiping the slate clean if you attended a TTT. LLM in Tax at NYU opens up the door to BigLaw opportunities. In certain circumstances, it can eventually open the door to teaching.

I should also mention that guys in my high school used to get LLMs all the time, it was no big deal.

What about getting an LLM from a foreign school after a JD? Does comment 17 apply to that option as well?

Although the Rising-3L's e-mail contained only one question, there's actually two questions in there.

1. What is the best LLM program? Probably G.W. Loads of courses, and you can intern at the Federal Circuit -- kind of a poor-man's clerkship. Boston University also has a decent program, I hear.

2. Although it wasn't asked, the idea of getting an LLM to make yourself more marketable to a firm is probably a low-percentage strategy. The upside is that it will possibly give you a second (third?) shot at OCI, this time from your LLM school. If there was something unusual about your first two rounds -- geography, the firms you applied to, whatever -- then changing the school might change that. Otherwise, I'd expect more of the same. So ask yourself, is it worth another $30K for another shot at OCI?

In any case, there's nothing so nuanced or complicated about IP that one can't learn it during law school. Really, to get up to speed, it takes one or two courses. (Here, by "up to speed" I mean able to perform well as a junior associate.) So those classes in "global IP strategy" or that A+ paper on comparative trademark law are all nice, but won't really be relevant. Hell, by the time you actually have to dip into that knowledge for *your* practice, it'd either be outdated or you would have forgotten it.

And in big firms, there tends not to be a large overlap between patent practitioners and copyright/trademark practitioners. Sure, there are those at the partner level who have "guru" status whose practice spans all of the above and more. But when firms look to hire a fresh-out-of-school associate, they're not considering guru potential. So the way to get into, say, a trademark practice isn't to demonstrate a knowledge of patents.

You should also know that generally, there's not a tremendous market for copyright/trademark people. It's simple enough that general litigators can do copyright and trademark litigation, and the transactional side is much simpler than it is with patents. Therefore, one person can handle a lot more transactions, so there's not as much hiring demand.

Before going to any LLM program, run the numbers. Find out where grads end up with their LLMs. (Do your best to talk to alumni... don't rely on data provided by career services. In general, even if career services *wanted* to give you good numbers, they're not competent to do so.) Go to the big firms and see how many of their junior associates have LLMs in IP. I'm a mid-level associate at a big firm in an active IP market, and I can't come up a single LLM-holder in IP. In fairness, I do patents. However, a quick search at a top trademark shop, Fross Zelnick, revealed only two LLM-holders, and both got their JD (... or equivalent ...) abroad. In this case, the American LLM makes sense.

Long story short, it sounds like you took your shot missed. It's time to start implementing plan B. Going after the LLM to do soft IP is throwing good money after bad.

On the other hand, if you don't want to practice at a firm, but want to teach, then getting an LLM makes more sense. I don't have much to say about that.

I am a registered patent attorney with a Masters in Biology from Johns Hopkins (nothing but super high marks), and an undergraduate degree in Biology from a very good Maryland university. I graduated from law school with honors and was managing editor of a journal. I passed the MD bar and the patent bar on my first attempts and waived into DC.

Notwithstanding all of this, it was VERY hard to get my first patent prosecution job - it took about 2 years of aggressive searching. I will tell you, an LLM is useless. IP firms want experience and patent bar eligibility.

I have found, however, that computer science and EE people are in MUCH greater demand. What's more, is that CS and EE folks usually have no trouble landing a job WITHOUT an advanced degree. If you technical background is in Bio/Chem/Physics, you better have an advanced degree - PhD preferred.

Simply put, an LLM in IP isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Invest the money in a technical degree, sit for the patent bar, and then hook up with an IP shop. You will have plenty of opportunities to do TM work in an IP boutique.

What's an LLM?

Patent, trademarks and copyrights IP are areas that almost screams that interested persons have, or be able to sit for, the patent bar.

The money you would have spent on the LLM may be better spent on a hard science degree, and a patent bar study course. Oh course, this assumes that you will get proper grades.

If you have no interest in math or science, you may want to rethink the matter.

#20 looks like very good advice.

LLM = waste of money for people who couldn't get a job through OCI.

If you didn't go to a top school and/or finish in the very top of your upper tier 1 school, forget about BIGLAW.

HTH.

is the pay or chances to make the big bucks so great that getting a PhD is worth it?

im totally clueless on IP.

Try to work at the PTO as a trademark examiner, then you will be solid gold.

no hard science background = no patent bar = no patent attorney = low probability of ip entry

I thought LLM's were only for weird smelly foreigners and tax nerds.

Is it common for a male in his late 20s to get hemroids?

The only LLM ever worth having is the NYU tax LLM. All other LLMs are cash cows for the school and mean absolutely zero.

A PhD from a good research university will land you HUGE bucks if you have a law degree, a state bar license and have passed the patent bar.

#21

I'd have to second the fact that an LLM in IP is worthless unless you were a foreigner. I worked in a large NY IP firm last summer and NO ONE there had an LLM. In fact, a lot of them went to really third tier law schools, like Brooklyn being one of the better ones.

However, most were older and had extensive science backgrounds and work experience before entering law. I had 3 years working in the engineering field and I was still on the younger side there among jr. associates and summers (I'm effectively an old dog in my respective law school).

As for TM/C, those are incredibly hard fields to get into; almost too specialized if you ask me. I loved the work in there though, there just wasn't much of it (and why be a specialist in a small field in a potentially shrinking legal market).

Effectively, if you couldnt get anything straight out of law school, work at the patent office a few years or try getting work at a firm. I'd hate to say it, but if you really looked around and you couldnt find a job in IP, you really suck or have a terrible IP background. My one friend who got C's in undergrad engineering (at a top 10 engineering school) and was a solid B student at a borderline 3rd/2nd tier law school (that was known for having a good IP program) was still able to get 2 job offers (one small to medium and one solidly medium sized firm). All because he had a real EE degree.

I do feel for you though. But more school ain't gonna help. If you dont mind the additional 40k in debt and really dont have anything else to do though, it wont hurt

26 -

If you get a PhD in a technical field, you can get pretty poor grades at a second tier law school and still end up in BigLaw. Of course, that's a lot of up-front costs for the PhD.

I don't think anyone cares about an LLM at most firms. It's very hard to get a soft IP job, there just aren't a lot of them out there. Most firms want the tech background; the patent people can do trademarks and copyrights, but the soft IP people don't do patent prosecution (and most prefer to bring in science-backgrounded people so they can bring a tech mind to IP litigation as well to help the 30-year-experienced litigation partner who hasn't the foggiest clue about the technology that the case hinges on).

To 7: work as a patent examiner for 2 or 3 years and then start looking for jobs again. I bet you'll have different luck in finding a job at a firm. You'll have experience in the nitty gritty of patent prosecution and insight into examiner's thinking that someone will want to hire. You may still not get into the top firms, but someone respectable will probably hire you unless you're just a bad interview.

Killer point 35

I would also argue that registered patent attorneys are much better at TM because attorneys with techincal backgrounds better understand the goods associated with TMs - this is improtant when deciding if the goods assocaited with a TM should be amended.

21

Ph.D is only worth it if you have 7-10 years to throw away. On the otherhand, think about the billable hours and experience you could rack up during the same time. A rational person would take the loot and the skills and call it a day.

Here's your opportunity.

The Overachieving Underprivileged Gunner (OUG)

37 - you are nuts and flat wrong - sort of. The PhD is absolutely necessary in the Organic Chem/Biotech arts. Without it, you won't be getting any experience anywhere period. If you are a EE/ME/CS person, a PhD is far less important if important at all.

LLM = TTT

Will an LLM in Worlds of Warcraft help me get into the major IP shops? Also, I live with my parents, which may help too, right?

30 - sounds like your forcing the issue .. just relax man

I hear Fish & Richardson hires people with LLMs in Worlds of Warcraft all of the time - they do TM/CR work exclusively. F & R only hires from TTT with LLMs in WoW.

Pierce Law has a great LLM program for IP, and is a top 5 IP school - very well connected with patent people. High level of foreign students - but most of them actually go back to their home countries, so...

But the above posters are right - patent bar = win. Otherwise (as someone who goes to Pierce and isn't a patent guy) you're kinda out in the cold like everyone else.

I seriously hope someone is getting billed for this.

You've got to ask yourself one question about getting an LLM: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

IP Law = TTT!!!

What about doing a clerkship with the Federal Circuit? Does that make you a shoe in for patent litigation, with or without a tech or science background?

get a phd (or masters) which will take you places where an llm cannot dream of. after phd and patent bar your good to go

I got my LLM from Apex Tech and when I graduated I got to keep the tools.

I have an LLM, and am considering going to work at Wilson Elser. Thoughts?

#16/1:22

Depending on your state you can rightfully call yourself "Doctor".

http://www.abanet.org/media/youraba/200709/ethics.html

I love all of these comments about a Phd. Sure, waste another 3-4 years on something totally unrelated to law (even though it will be related to future IP work), make that 7-8 years if one does not have a technical undergrad degree to begin with. Aboslutely ridiculous.

I have an LLM, and am going to work at Wilson Elser. Thoughts?

54 - I may have missed it, but I didn't see any discussion in that of the SJD degree, which unlike a JD is a terminal degree like a PhD.

Wait, where are you going to work?

TM and copyright are interesting generalist areas so why get an LLM? Well, both can be fairly cerebral and have a great deal of overlap with other areas of the law that "IP" practitioners (and professors) tend to overlook. If you are smart enough to write a great article and get it published when you do an LLM, you might find that this moves the job search ball. You don't absolutely need an LLM to publish, of course, but that's what I would focus on if I were going to get an LLM. With respect to patent law, doing something else is honorable and commendable. Patent law is technocratic, insular, gibberish laden, pseudo-admin law which requires a great deal of specialization. If you need the LLM, then maybe you need to take a close look at patent law to see if it is really what you want to do.

If you have to ask, it is TTT.

Wilson!

- Tom Hanks

I've been practicing in IP for 15 years. I've been at 2 general practice firms and 3 IP boutiques. I have never met a single American who had an LLM, although I have met some foreigners who came to the US for an LLM.

21,

Is your Master's from Hopkins the MS Biotechnology program they offer? I was recently accepted into the MS Biotechnology program and am hoping to follow a path similar to you. (I've also already passed the patent bar, and my undergrad bio degree is from a top school as well ). I've been looking to touch base with alumni from the program and was wondering if you had any recommendations on particular classes or prof's you thought were top notch. Thanks.

66- To get the S.J.D. you need a J.D. If a J.D can be called a "Doctor", then an S.J.D. can be called a "Doctor" since they have the J.D.

I'm:

a) a patent attorney
b) graduated from a T14 school
c) published in IP post-graduation
d) CS background
e) not practicing

what am i doing wrong

OK, but I'm not really talking about ethical issues. I want to know whether, practically speaking, I'd be laughed out of the room by PhDs i i get an SJD and demand to be called Doctor.

62: Thats easy: e

Get a damn job

64:

hire me

While we are on the subject of IP, Lat, I think that, based on the above comments, you might have an IP address to ban (oh, zing..!)

65: Why? You'd just waste your time on ATL all day, apparently

67:

if by "all day" you mean "over lunch", yeah

I have a JD from a TTT, and you had better believe my T20 IP LLM is at the top of the resume. So nice to get my JD school partially obscured by a far better school.

An LLM in IP is great to talk about at interviews but, that being said, it is otherwise a very expensive waste of time and cash.

Hint: IP LLM will not work at a boutique, where no one will believe any BS you spill about the degree. Non-IP attorneys at general firms doing the interviewing / hiring are more easily wowed.

I have a PhD in Geography. BigLaw for IP?

I have a PhD in Geography. BigLaw for IP?

To the commenter who suggests techies/patent lawyers would do a better job in soft IP cases than non-techies, you may be right only on the issue of trade dress and copyright cases involving theft of digital music. People with backgrounds in English, linguistics, and semiotics are much better suited to the task of analyzing distinguishing word marks. Copyright law evolved with the history of literature, and literary analysis is often brought to bear on the underlying works in copyright cases. People who focused on engineering or cs for 4-12 years before law school probably haven't read fiction since it was assigned in high school or written a non-technical paper since Freshman writing. As such, they would lack the facility with language and its subtle nuances that successful advocates on behalf of art corporate creativity.

To obese WoW nerd at #68: get off your kiester and move around during lunch.

I forgot to add that the patent bar has a very low pass rate, many poor souls take it on the chin on their first attempt.

OUG

#53--My deepest sympathies for what you are about to go through at Wilson Elser. I spent a year in that hell-hole getting over-worked and underpaid before moving on.

I am a senior IP associate at a big firm with a very good IP practice. IMO all an LLM in IP does is show that you are interested in IP, and that you probably could not get a good job when you got your JD. Probably not worth the time and $ in my book, because you should be able to show your interest in IP in other ways - like take an IP survey class and a few IP classes in law school.

Also, #43 said Pierce "is a top 5 IP school " - I have never heard of Pierce, and there is no such thing as "a top 5 IP school." Your school is either a top school or not. I don't care what US News says--my department recruits at the top schools, not the top IP schools. I do not know which ones those are, nor do I care.

62:
- Join as many bar associations / groups as you can
- Attend as many networking events as you can
- Ask friends and relatives who they know in law / corporations
- Be flexible in where you are willing to move / what area of patent law you will practice
- Join AIPLA and get involved and attend the Oct. 08 conference in DC and network like crazy
- DON'T get desperate and waste $$$ on an LLM

72 cont'd--left off "possess" at the end of the last sentence.

IP LLM makes it very hard to get a non-IP job. Recruiters will either (1) reject you thinking you are an idiot who did not realize it was not an IP job or (2) reject you thinking that you will jump ship to an IP job when one opens. Better be committed to the practice area 100%.

Guys from my high school practiced in IP all the time; it was no big deal.

What about a LL.M. in taxation concurrently with a J.D. at a top 25ish school? I've got decent grades and am on law review, but do you think my concurrent enrollment in the tax LL.M. program at my law school will help me in OCI next month?

What about a LL.M. in taxation concurrently with a J.D. at a top 25ish school? I've got decent grades and am on law review, but do you think my concurrent enrollment in the tax LL.M. program at my law school will help me in OCI next month?

Quick - someone praise OUG before he explodes in a rage. Calm down, kid. Keep it up and the people you work with will kill you.

@75: Where did you lateral to? BigLaw?

62: Answer -- a) through d).

An LL.M is only useful if you publish. It is nice, though, if you can use it is a year off from Big Law. With that said, most firms won't give credit for the LL.M year.

FYI - Berkeley is probably the best IP LL.M.

I graduated from a t14, and for various reasons didn't have good options after graduation. I did an IP LLM in DC after graduation, and it worked out, but totally not for reasons you might expect.

I went in wanting to do a good internship and write a good article. I managed to do two good internships and write a good article - at least good enough to get published at a reputable journal. DC was a great place for those two things...the research resources for writing the article that also served as my LLM thesis were tremendous in DC. Additionally, there are tons of government agencies hungry for interns who actually have a JD. For them it's getting another lawyer for the price of a law student. I got an offer just about everywhere I applied.

Beyond that, what doing an LLM does is really keep you in the entry-level game. Shortly after starting the program I landed a non-ip federal clerkship, and I'm currently at a top NYC firm (by that I mean 160 and no billable requirement). The classes are interesting enough, but be careful - I for one found that I had absolutely no energy or enthusiasm for law classes anymore. The administrators were nice enough, but you'll feel weird relative to the regular students, and they'll wonder who the heck you are.

Anyhow, good luck. It's a rough spot, but I'd be cautious about using an IP LLM to get out of it...it's expensive, and kind of true that the only really useful one is a NYU Tax LLM.

An LL.M is only useful if you publish. It is nice, though, if you can use it is a year off from Big Law. With that said, most firms won't give credit for the LL.M year.

FYI - Berkeley is probably the best IP LL.M.

I work at a firm specializing in IP - both transactional and litigtion matters. I think we're considered "biglaw" - we're paid as such. We have VERY FEW LLMs - and those we do have are foreign lawyers (like a Chinese lawyer with a degree in computer science and an LLM in IP Law). My recommendation is to skip OCI and apply directly to firms that specialize in IP. That's what I did - I was at a low 40's ranked school in the middle of my class and got a position here through direct application. It takes more effort than OCI but less effort than an LLM and probably better result.

I work at a firm specializing in IP - both transactional and litigtion matters. I think we're considered "biglaw" - we're paid as such. We have VERY FEW LLMs - and those we do have are foreign lawyers (like a Chinese lawyer with a degree in computer science and an LLM in IP Law). My recommendation is to skip OCI and apply directly to firms that specialize in IP. That's what I did - I was at a low 40's ranked school in the middle of my class and got a position here through direct application. It takes more effort than OCI but less effort than an LLM and probably better result.

Berkeley's LLM is only for foreignors.

72: My engineering friends and I read more books than all the english and philosophy majors we knew. The only people I have ever met who actually read Derrida and Chomsky for fun were curious bored engineers. The kind of engineer who gets tired of the technical minutia, maybe does some time on the business side of high-tech, and then goes back to law school, likely has better language and people skills than the "undecided... oh s---, english I guess... lawyers make money? ok I will go to law school" crowd.

On the subject of the thread, patent litigation is just litigation, you need people skills and strategy more than you need science. You just have to know how to dumb down what the expert says to convince the judge and jury. Prosecution is getting commodified. The big lit houses take a loss on it so they can pitch "full service" to their IP clients, and mint money when those clients get sued. If you really want to spend all day obsessing about technical details, go get a job as an actual engineer. Those pay as well as the PTO and mid-range firms do, and you can still get stock options.

Most of the above dbags have no clue what they are talking about. If you "prioritized" differently in law school and your grades reflect that, an LLM is not a bad option (but for the added tuition). G.W. has a fantastic IP LLM program and, in my opinion, the grades are fairly easy to come by. I can tell you that a 3.9 in GW's LLM program will be viewed more favorably than a 2.9 in your JD program.

Most of the above dbags have no clue what they are talking about. If you "prioritized" differently in law school and your grades reflect that, an LLM is not a bad option (but for the added tuition). G.W. has a fantastic IP LLM program and, in my opinion, the grades are fairly easy to come by. I can tell you that a 3.9 in GW's LLM program will be viewed more favorably than a 2.9 in your JD program. I know of several LLMers who took this exact route and ended up in various BigLaw offices.

I'd be nice to get a serious opinion on this...

I got my JD from a school ranked in the top 70 and after finishing in the top 10% of my class, I will be attending Univ of Cambridge for my LLM next year in Corp Law. I figured that going to a school overseas for my LLM would distinguish myself from those who go to US LLM programs and are merely looking to having something more prestigious at the top of their resume as I'm going to actually gain international experience and hopefully open up some more international opportunities. Without getting into too many more details, thoughts? Thx.

at what firms can one focus (almost) exclusively on transactional IP?

60

I did the MS Biotech. The most important thing is to get killer grades. The first two courses are especially tough so work hard. This will pay off big dividends if you do well - many DC firms have patent associates who are alums of this program. Work hard and you'll be on your way.

21

I complete an MD in May and am considering law. Would an MD help significantly with patent law or is it not "hard science" enough?

Just a comment to all the people considering IP - be damn sure to look at the requirements for taking the patent bar. Note that a graduate degree in a technical field is NOT enough - you need the undergrad degree.

Link: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/grb.pdf

97 and 21,

Thanks for your reply on the biotech program. I had a couple other questions about the classes and was hoping I could ask you since you've completed the degree successfully. If you wouldn't mind, could you ping me at hopkinsbiotechguy(at)gmail(dot)com? Hopefully I can ask you more detailed questions this way.

Thanks very much for taking the time. I could definitely use some advice.

60

To the guy who said you HAVE to have a PhD to do patents in Chem/Bio... not true. I do tons of prosecution in 1600 with my BS in chemical engineering.

Sounds like an IP LLM can be useful, but only in the right situations...I'm curious if anybody knows how to get a job at the PTO as a TM Examining attorney - that sounds like an ideal job to gain some experience and be able to leapfrog to a nice firm job...anybody know the ins?

PTO's a pain to get hired at, but you don't need a JD for the jobs there. You just need to take the patent bar and qualify in a technology.

The firm jobs you can hop to are patent prosecution types, which are probably conducive to a happy life, but which are not a mainstay of biglaw firms (which prefer IP lit and IP transactions and usually refer their patent prosecution work, or do prosecution in their own low-cost sweatshops).

I am so glad ATL decided to discuss this issue. I am contemplating to apply to an IP LLM program for next fall. I would appreciate any opinions on my situation.

I graduated with mediocre grades from a second tier undergrad with a BA in Mathematics. I then went to a borderline 2nd/3rd tier law school and finished my first year at top 10%. I then transferred to a borderline 1st/2nd tier law school and graduated a few years ago with mediocre grades. The reason my grades were not stellar is because I had to work fulltime during my entire undergrad and the last two years of law school. However, I am confident that my intellectual abilities are at par or above most T14 top 10% law school graduates. I am sure my last statement will get comments from the peanut gallery. Please just take my intellectual capabilities as a given and evaluate my situation as such. I would like to point out that I took a few engineering classes to qualify for the USPTO and passed it on my first attempt. Also, I have 3 years of general engineering experience at a small/medium size military contractor.

I got a job as a Staff Attorney at a BIGLAW firm after passing the state bar on my first attempt. My firm is a litigation powerhouse that is known for its patent litigation work. My position at the firm is unlike other Staff positions in the sense that I receive great experience. Besides for supervising large document review projects, I have been given the opportunity to research, write, draft, conduct law and motion, and participate in strategy meetings.

My questions are as follows:

1. What are the best LLM programs if I want to focus on patent litigation and I am interested in either (a) getting a BIGLAW associate position or (b) Federal Clerkship? I am open to foreign programs.

2. What are my chances of getting into these programs and how can I improve them?

3. What is the value of me getting an LLM from one of these programs with exceptional grades, publication, and great internship? If it won't get me into Big Law patent litigation practice or Federal Clerkship, will it help with a medium size general litigation firm that has a patent practice? As long as the firm has complex and interesting patent litigation cases, pays within 70-80% of Big Law pay and I have a chance of latering to Big Law after a few years of practice, I do not mind working at medium size firm.

I can imagine some of you saying that I would be better off getting a Masters Degree in Engineer or Science. If I choose that route I have a few questions:

1. Do you think it would be better to get a Second Bach in EE or a Masters in Physics?

2. How important is school prestige when it comes to Science degrees? Would a 2nd/3rd tier state college degree suffice?

3. Have you ever known or heard of attorneys in the patent world that have earned their Graduate degree in Science or Engineering after they got their JD? Is this looked upon with suspicion?

Sorry for the long essay, but I figured if someone was going to give me real good advice, it would be best if I provide as much information as possible. Thank you in advance for all your comments.

Hello,
Hello,
I am a non-US law graduate with 8 years experience in conveyancing, company and tax law in Spain, used to deal mainly with foreign clients. i did an MA in politics in the UK and am now interested in an LLM to specialise in IP and get practical experience in the US (mainly in Media and film industry).
Questions:
1. do you believe it could be useful to do the LLM in my case?
2. is is feasible to gain practice in such fields without technical background or experience as patent attorney/prosecutor, as you were mentioning in other posts?
thanks

LLM in IP is a total, 100% scam.

Waste of money and time (unless you're trying to impress the ivory tower crowd that thinks law school rank somehow matters in the real world).

LLM in IP is a total, 100% scam.

Waste of money and time (unless you're trying to impress the ivory tower crowd that thinks law school rank somehow matters in the real world).

Some IP LLM programs focus on practical skills as opposed to legal theory - those would be better, I imagine, than a 4th year of JD classes.