Trading Places: At NYU Law, A Clash Over Classes for Cash
Trading Places: it's no longer just a great eighties flick. It's what some NYU Law School students were trying to do, for cash -- until the administration got wind of it, and cracked down.
Several tipsters forwarded us this email:
To: All StudentsFrom: Liam Murphy, Vice Dean [FN1]
Re: Buying and Selling Places in Classes
Date: July 22, 2008
I have received reports of students offering to buy or sell places in classes that closed during the recent registration lottery. (The seller and the buyer agree on a time when the class will be dropped by the seller and requested by the buyer.)
I write to remind you that trading class spots for money or goods, or offering to do so, is a violation of law school rules. Places in law school classes are not the property of the enrolled student. Sanctions will be imposed on any seller of a class place and any student who buys a place from another student will be withdrawn from the class.
This deplorable practice will, fortunately, become a thing of the past when the School of Law's new registration system comes online for the 2009-2010 academic year. In the meantime, I urge you to behave responsibly and respect the integrity of our efforts to allot classes to students in a fair and proper manner.
C'mon, Dean Murphy -- don't you teach contracts? Isn't this a learning experience? Why are you cracking down on a bunch of enterprising law students who are applying law-and-economics principles to their daily lives?
The reactions of some students:
"In the frenzy over registration here at NYU, some students are offering cash for classes. Apparently, the school only likes it when it's getting paid for the privilege.""[T]hought it would be interesting post to see whether folks out there can make a cogent argument that places in law school classes are the property of the enrolled student. Not your typical post, but perhaps might be fun."
We agree -- it could be interesting. Have at it, in the comments. Thanks.
[FN1] Hubba-hubba! This Dean Murphy is pretty cute. And he's Australian, so he probably has one of those sexy Aussie accents. It's too bad he was not yet a dean at the time of ATL's Law School Dean Hotties Contest.
(72) Comments
These crackers are making me FIRSTY.
Lat,
It is my opinion as a straight dude, that your taste in guys is terrible.
So Lat is gay, right? "Not that there's anything wrong with that!" Oh how I love Seinfeld!
Whether gay or not, he's got pretty bad taste in men if he thinks that Aussie Dean is "pretty cute."
New York Law School doesn't have a waitlist for classes? They are TTT.
"Looking good, Billy Ray!"
"Feeling good, Louis!"
Will a new registration system really stop people from trading cash for classes? Bull. The new system will only set a different initial allocation. There will always be overdemand for certain classes. What the school needs is an online add/drop database so people can coordinate among themselves without flooding the law school listserve with annoying requests.
LiLo is dating a girl!
Australian accents are not sexy.
Is there really a "law school rule" that says that you can't sell your seat in a class? Or is he just claiming that this activity fits in one of those vague "do not participate in inappropriate conduct" rules that most schools have?
So you cant trade cash for a class, but what about sexual favors?
Seriously, Lat's gay, right? After that comment about the dean...
Turn the machines back on!!!
I don't think "deplorable" is the adjective I would have used.
Nothing new here--the same practice cropped up 3 or 4 years ago when I was at NYU, and it met with a similar school-wide email rebuke from another sub-dean (Barry Adler, another contracts prof). The registration system has been outdated and frustrating for years.
Lat is right though: Liam is, in fact, totally dreamy. And all critics (and annoying straight guys) should stand down.
The law school presumably pays more for better teachers, why can't the students pay more for better classes?
Maybe there should be a system where people register in order of class rank? (Cue Flamewar)
the issue is not whether a place in the class is the student's property. student A has a limited right to attend class (limited, that is, by academic good standing requirements, etc), which he won fair and square through the lottery and which he paid for with his tuition money. you can think of it as a lease of a place in the class, if the idea of an absolute ownership right offends you. student B wasn't so lucky, but really wants to attend and is willing to sublease the spot. allowing B to do this ensures that the class will be populated with people who really want to be there, which is a good thing.
It tells time simultaneously in Monte Carlo, Beverly Hills, London, Paris, Rome, and Gstaad!!!
This post is so BTR - this issue has come up (including the sexual favors) every year for at least 7 years at NYU Law.
To 12:55(3) / #17:
I'm sorry, but... "In Philadelphia, it's worth 50 bucks"
I don't know how any of you can waste time thinking about this stuff when BATMAN was arrested today in London!
Sheesh.
The students aren't buying class spots. Student B is paying Student A to withdraw from class at a specified time. Student B then enrolls in the class immediately thereafter. Student A's obligations under the contract are limited only to withdraw at the time specified. It's absolutely a proper contract that shouldn't run afoul of any rules. It could also be done in a different manner. Assume that the class in question meets MW at 10:30 in classroom 100. Student B could pay Student A to not be in classroom 100 on MW at 10:30. Student A would then drop the class because it conflicts with his schedule.
Let's see some enterprising NYU students blatantly inform the school they're doing this, and then file a pro se lawsuit if they're sanctioned for it.
12:49, 12:56 - Is there a hierarchy of sexual favors, depending on how in-demand the class is?
In my law school's online registration system (the only way to register), when a class closed it would not re-open automatically. Students were directed to add their names to an electronic wait-list. A report is provided to the registrar a couple times a day and he would notify students that a spot opened up and give them one day to respond to accept it, and the registrar would put the students into the class. One of the effects of this is that you couldn't do things like coordinate drops/adds for your friends, which would create an exploitable market as is available at NYU right now.
Market economy rules all.
The buyer is not paying for the class. They are paying for the service of another person dropping the class to give them an opportunity to add the class. It is possible that someone else could be a free-rider, learn of the deal and add before the buyer. The seller could still collect because it is the buyer's risk at that point.
look at that S Car Go!
subtledig.com outed lat already
What if the students should have offered NYU a 15% cut?
What if the students should have offered NYU a 15% cut?
Penelope, I am NOT an angel dust dealer!
how much do these classes go for anyway?
I don't know, but it's telling of the school's priorities (making money, maintaining status quo) that they're wasting energy preventing people from getting into classes they really want instead of offering more sections of popular classes.
NYU creates the scarcity by not having enough seats in classes students want. NYU makes them register months in advance, so it could create new class sections, but instead creates scarcity and then acts surprised when high demand for low supply results in premium pricing.
30 - I got into Secured Transactions for a quick rim-job in a library bathroom.
1:03 -- 5 points for another surprisingly cogent argument on ATL
This is cap-and-trade at its finest.
Its not that big a deal. People sell classes at UVA all the time.
The issue is not about property (of course students have no property right to a class) but about efficiency. Spots in good classes are scarce resources, and anyone who has taken econ 101 will tell you that the best way to allocate scarce resources is with prices, not blind lotteries. You can go ahead and file this whole thing under "Why middling bureaucrats and attempts at fairness and central planning are usually worse than markets and prices" (my editor is making me shorten some of my chapter titles, as you can see).
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.
I'm assuming that friends could coordinate drop/adds, so why can't people assign monetary value? This isn't prostitution, people.
I think that law school registration (which was a nightmare in my day '99-'02) should work like firm interview registration (if it doesn't already): Students are given a set number of credits that they can use to match with classes. That way they can ensure that they will get the ones that they want -- not just have the fastest network connection and wait in the holding pen until the system opens (like it worked when I was registering).
"Cash for class" definitely happens at UVA, at least for Leslie classes. I've heard of $300 or more being exchanged to get into a Leslie class.
It's not luck, Todd.
re: 35 -
Last year, an enterprising 2L built a website, classwatcher.com, for UVA Law students to monitor the course enrollment system, LawReg, for open spots in designated classes. For $20, you could watch up to three classes (an additional fee per class beyond three). The system would send you an e-mail and/or text message as soon as a spot became available, so that you could log on and grab it. He even limited the number of people who could "watch" a particular class to 10% of the class's total enrollment so as not to dilute the utility of the service.
Apparently, the administration did not like this and changed the security settings of LawReg so that he could not run the site again this year, but that's just what I've heard.
How much are the classes being sold for?
Can anyone fill us in on exactly what classes are so in demand at NYU that there is a surfeit of students banging down doors and willing to pay for the opportunity to get in?
I ask this because getting into even the most popular corporate classes, in fact any popular class, in my school is not even an issue. Yes, the most popular classes tend to be booked solid in the first period of pre-registration (on-line), but then as far as I know, the procedure at the beginning of the semester in question is just to show up for the class, and beg the teacher to be let in....I can't say I have ever heard of a student at my school not being able to get into an elective class, and we have a lot fewer professors than NYU has.
There are no winners in this debate-- the NYU administration are a bunch of douches for trying to put a stop to the system, and the NYU students are a bunch of douches for actually paying money for classes. Just how much are we talking about anyway? Fucking gunners.
Eddie Murphy. From this to Meet Dave in only 25 years.
ya bastid.
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.
So is 34 exactly right or what?
I'd have paid a few hundred to get into classes and sections I actually wanted. It would have made my schedule better and, if I'd chosen wisely, probably helped my GPA a bit. I was already paying $30k+/year for classes I didn't want, so what's another $2-$3k if I actually get what I want for it?
26:
Crediting subtledig.com with outing Lat is like crediting me for outing Elton John by writing this comment.
37, 46, 47, 48: I am embarrassed to be associated with you.
- #34
Will you be gettin' off at the city of brotherly love, Mr. Beaks?
I took a couple of classes from Prof Murphy when I was at NYU. Definite Aussie accent and lots of girls thowing themselves at him. I don't know if he's ever caught any.
Wow, this comments thread is sad.
He's wearing my HARVARD tie.. like oh sure, he went to HARVARD..
Dean Murphy ain't dreamy, he is dreamin'. If the SEC can barely put a dent on insider trading on public markets, how is the dean ever going to regulate a private one...with no proof that the transaction was of the offending, and not innocent, sort.
I bet this practice will continue regardless of the Dean. Who wants to take me up on it for, say, one dollar?
the usual amount?
If NYU was smart they would charge a premium for its most popular courses sort of the way the Yankees charge a premium for seats when they play the Red Sox, Mets, etc. Just think of the increased revenue stream.
43: survey of securities regulation with choi is in high demand. i've personally offered money and goods/services to get in. am also trying to get into professional responsibility in law and business (go figure).
Zeta Chi,
Zeta Chi, my friend
'Neath the elms we sing our tones
We're brothers to the end
Muffy in the bathroom stall
Margaret by the lake
Susan down in Whitsley Hall
Constance on the make
Constance Fry,
Constance Fry,
Anytime you'd call
Constance would fulfill your needs,
Winter, Spring, or Fall.
SNITCHES GET STITCHES. NYU STUDENTS STOP SNITCHING.
I'm one of the NYU kids that offered money for a class slot - I did it as a way of civil disobedience, showing the administration to what lengths their shit system has driven us. FIGHT THE POWER. What would Thoreau do?
what an arcane system of class registration. its pretty funny that very smart people are being held hostage to an administration seemingly filled with idiots. and how can this registration system have been going on for years?
64, I'd love to know that. Example: I gave the registration system a pretty well-done "lottery ticket," with a couple seminars and a couple lecture classes highly-ranked to, I thought, guarantee me a spot. Result: three seminars. You can only take two per semester. Win, NYU. Win.
If I find out that my spot went to 2Ls, heads are gonna roll.
Here's the solution. If you sign up for a lottery for a class and you get in, you can't withdraw from the class, or there is a penalty, like say, $300. That will stop douches from signing up for classes just so they can sell their spot, and that will ensure that wishy-washy students don't sign up for classes unless they really want to be in that class.
And if somebody REALLY wants to be in a class that badly, they can pay the $300 plus whatever premium to be in a class.
41:
That explains why I got beat out for all the classes I wanted last year.
UVA 3L
This isn't law-and-economics, it's just economics. Nice try.
Ultimately, it's the rich kids' mommies and daddies who are paying for the spots. That's why the system sucks. If you're actually trying to limit your costs in law school, you don't have money to pay to get into classes.
And Liam Murphy is dreamy. That picture doesn't do him justice. Unless times have changed, though, he's happily married.
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.
Exactly right, 34. Artificial scarcity, a bureaucracy decides who gets which "free" credits, and then it restricts who can buy and sell so that it can straddle the market and take cuts on every deal. All that's missing is for NYU to run the post-registration class auction.