A Woman’s Place Is… At Cravath
This week, Working Mother magazine, in association with Flex-Time Lawyers, released its second annual Best Law Firms for Women rankings.
Some of the firms on this year’s list are notorious sweatshops, more likely to help women freeze their eggs than they are to aid either sex in raising a family.
I contacted Deborah Epstein Henry (pictured), founder and president of Flex-Time Lawyers and co-author of the list. Henry said that her results reflect more than firm PR. The rankings score firm programs based on how many attorneys actually use those programs.
In Henry’s view, ranking the best law firms for women is more than just a women’s issue.
“What we are looking for is firms that have work/life policies that are both gender- and racial [sic] reason-neutral,” Henry said. “I firmly believe that the more we can move work/life issues away from being a ‘mommy’s issue’ the better off we’ll be.”
More on Henry’s efforts to make law firms responsive to lifestyle concerns after the jump.
To put it simply, Henry did not pick the top 50 firms out of a hat.
To be eligible for the rankings, law firms are asked to submit an “application” consisting of answers to nearly 400 questions. The survey is broken down into five sections: 1) Workforce Profile; 2) Family Friendly Benefits and Policies; 3) Flexibility (in terms of hours); 4) Compensation, Leadership and Advancement; and 5) Retention of Women. The workforce profile, flexibility, and advancement sections are weighed more heavily than others, and the firms’ responses are processed according to a proprietary algorithm which yields the rankings.
You’ll notice what is missing from Henry’s methodology: PPP, prestige, the things that Vault typically cares about, are not part of the equation.
Those omissions are not accidental. Henry believes that her rankings give firms information about the effectiveness of their own policies that is not available anywhere else. Whether they make the list or not, all of the firms that participate receive an issue-by-issue breakdown of where they ranked.
“Firms are really poised, and many of them ready, to start devoting resources to work/life and women’s issues,” Henry said. “But they don’t even know their strengths and weaknesses.”
Information exchange sounds great, but Henry also thinks that the rankings can bring about real change in the legal industry.
“One of my goals,” she said, “is making work/life balance and women’s issues the basis for competition among law firms, as historically has been the case for salary.”
Godspeed.
2008 50 Best Law Firms For [Working Mother]
[Ed. note: This post is by SOPHIST, one of the finalists in ATL Idol, the “reality blogging” competition that will determine ATL’s next editor. It is marked with Sophist’s avatar (at right).]
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Comments
1st to say Cravath is Swine!
Well written.
meh.
Verrrrry savvy choice of post! Despite the fact that these comments sometimes seem like a locker room full of chest thumpers, ATL *does* actually have a sizeable female audience (contrary to what some posters would have you believe).
Finally, something in this contest that is actual ATL-worty material.
I question the value of a "best" list which includes 50 firms. Most of the picks are AmLaw 200 firms, and participation is voluntary, so it's not a very big pool to begin with.
Well done. I like that he spoke to the woman and didn't just summarize the rankings.
A woman's place is at Cravath?? 22 weeks maternity leave notwithstanding (how many get away with taking the full 22 weeks, I wonder?), the numbers are pretty dismal...
FEMALE ASSOCIATES
38%
FEMALE COUNSEL
34%
FEMALE EQUITY PARTNERS
16%
The question is, should I take the job there hoping to improve their numbers, or should I run as fast as I can in my sensible flats?
Poorly written post.
I found the first two sentences to be particularly awkward.
BTW, I have just been informed by an excellent source that BOTH Sophist and F & D have HLS degrees, so the writing is of paramount importance.
I am leaning toward Sophist as most seem to be, but this is not is best post by a long shot.
Where's the avatar?
How is a flex-time policy "RACIAL" [sic] neutral? Does she really think that different races have different needs for flex-time? In her mind, are some races unable to work full-time?
I'm incredibly confused as to why she thinks that "racial" [sic] is a factor in flex-time policies.
Great post, I was pretty surprised at some of the firms on the list too...
This is the kind of stuff that we come to this site to read. Sophist gets it.
9- I have just been informed by an excellent source that BOTH Sophist and F&D walk on water now...
Sorry, that seems far more likely then F&D having a HLS degree given her writing and choice of topics which have been sub par
8 -- trick question.
You should get back in the kitchen.
I agree with #13, Sophist isn't perfect but at least he gets it
I have just been informed by an excellent source that F&D is actually Santa Claus...
At least Sophist seems interested in putting in the effort of actually doing an interview instead of recycling articles...
Guys at my high school used to rank law firms for women all the time, it was no big deal...
Poorly written post.
Also, the tone of the sweatshop stuff and the Vault stuff worries me.... have we managed to get a subprime, callow ATL commenter or (egad) xoxo plebe as Lat's replacement?
9 - I can put up with criticism related to writing style/quality, but ONLY when the commenter can write without making glaring mistakes. Read the last few sentences of your post. Pwnd.
Why did Sophist bother doing an interview when he could have just googled the woman to find riveting stories about her social life?
Go home now, F&D.
20- have you read the post? The overall tone is the opposite of what you are saying. The 'godspeed' line disproves your point entirely...
I didn't even notice this was Sophist until I continued reading and saw the logo at the bottom. Good job!
Good post. Interesting topic. It's been a long road but I think we have an editor.
24-- Me too!! I think that is the best sign yet...
24 - Agreed. This actually seems like a real ATL post for once instead of this stupid contest. It gives me a little bit of hope.
#27- at least its better then anything f&d has googled together
Who really cares about the needs of women? Skadden rules!
I have just been informed by an excellent source that F&D is actually a foreign exchange student from Fiji.
So the key metric for making this list of Top Firms for Women to work at seems to be the firms' willingness to not require the women to...actually work.
Prior to the economy hitting the skids, it seemed we were in a maternity leave arms race, and even 18 weeks is not enough according to some of my femaile colleagues. (18 weeks = 4 1/2 months = more than 1/3 of the year = a 1300 billable hour requirement.)
Just how long will male associates be willing to shoulder the billable hour load by working 700 more hours for the same pay?
29-- Um... Skadden is on the list too... D'Oh!
WOW, this is like the greatest post of all time.
- Friend of Sophist
I mean, seriously, "sophist gets it" and "verrrry savvy choice." Give me a break. This post is fine (as in, finally, a decent post by one of the contestants), but it proves nothing other then how pathetic this contest has been.
33- I guess people are judging on a curve, since this is better then the other posts
Yeah, how does that sack lunch taste? Thats how we do it here in UVA.
Remember to use the royal we next time.
32 -- They are talking about a different Skadden. I am talking about the Skadden that Rules!
First to say Deborah Epstein Henry is a bit of a MILF!!
My sources are telling me that F&D will withdraw from the contest later this afternoon but that she is witholding her support for Sophist until he agrees to help her pay off her ATL Idol debt.
34 -- The comments I referenced didn't claim that Sophist was the best of the lot, they suggested that this post was amazing; which is ridiculous. It's a decent post, and that it is being celebrated as anything more shows how pathetic this contest has been.
- 33
Cravath and other top firms have generous policies. They allow up to 12 hours for labor & delivery (scheduled C-Section, of course) and up to 48 hours recovery. Of course, one will have to make up those billables by working later, including Sundays.
Hope this helps.
Post is OK. Topic selection is good.
FU ATL IDOL!!!
Former Creighton 1L
Good topic, at least it is not about law students.
But the title is misleading; Cravath is not on the list, and this post has nothing to do with Cravath.
44-- You are totally wrong, Cravath is on the list...
44 - you might find Cravath under "C" on the alphabetical list
Did somebody say Cravath?
45: 44 hasn't gotten to that part of the alphabet yet. He's still trying to memorize the letter "B"
Use the royal 'we.'
You write that "I contacted her..."
I don't like that because I don't have any idea who "I" is. Just write 'we' like Lat. It's much better.
I have to say I thought this was a "real" post (since no avatar). Actually readable and decent. Looks like there's hope yet.
WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER?
8, you have an offer at Cravath and your not sure if to take it or not??? u should probably kill yourself
39, Priceless
Henry went from Yale undergrad to Brooklyn Law...wow
To all of those advocating for the royal we -- don't you think it's a bit presumptuous to use it before you actually have the job and work for ATL?
BOOORRRRING post. The topic selection was fine/good, but the thing is just way too long and news-y sounding. Sorry, I don't want to read a whole frickin' original article on ATL, I want a short, snarky blurb and a link to a longer article in case I care enough to read more.
Also, the "freeze their eggs" line was great, but the rest of the post was way too sincere. More sarcasm, please.
Why is Paul Hastings on the list?
8 here. Yes, 52, I'm clerking and have a post-clerkship offer from Cravath. And yeah, believe it or not, Vault rankings aren't the only things factoring into my decision. D's and F's on the female-diversity report card give me a fair amount of pause. http://betterlegalprofession.org/firm_report.php5?id=21
Something smells very very fishy in here. Fishy fishy indeed....
This is an uncharacteristically awful post.
55 pretty much nailed it.
The fact that Morgan Lewis is on this list makes the entire list suspect. 'Nuff said.
This study basically says "Here are 50 law firms who decided to respond to our survey that we think have good things that they, the firms through professional spokespeople, can tell us about how they treat women. However, we don't tell you how many firms responded so we're not telling you whether this group was taken from 250 or from 50. Also, we won't tell you the responding firms that didn't make this list so no one knows whether other firms are actually not friendly to women or just didn't respond. And finally, we'll just clump all 50 together without any sort of internal ranking or even tiers so that its just one big 50-firm clump (out of who knows how many or few responding firms)."
The "Apply for next year's list" being so prominently displayed shows how completely incomprehensive this study is.
This study basically says "Here are 50 law firms who decided to respond to our survey that we think have good things that they, the firms through professional spokespeople, can tell us about how they treat women. However, we don't tell you how many firms responded so we're not telling you whether this group was taken from 250 or from 50. Also, we won't tell you the responding firms that didn't make this list so no one knows whether other firms are actually not friendly to women or just didn't respond. And finally, we'll just clump all 50 together without any sort of internal ranking or even tiers so that its just one big 50-firm clump (out of who knows how many or few responding firms)."
The "Apply for next year's list" being so prominently displayed shows how completely incomprehensive this study is.
57, 52 here, let me explain my reasoning behind what I said. And yes, I was probably harsh for no reason.
If you go to Cravath and its awful and you hate it. . . moving to another firm or even to in house will be fairly easy because of the prestige of the name.
If you go to a lower vault ranked firm and still are miserable, you could be shotting your self in the foot.
- conclusion: don't kill yourself, just think of the 5-10 year plan.
Paul Hastings is not on the list, d*bag. I checked.
61 is spot-on. flextime in theory is very different from flextime in practice. firms know that single women bill more than anybody else (look it up), so they have these policies to attract the forward-thinking ones who then, as it turns out, quit after they have kids anyway. so, it's a pretty profitable proposition.
sad. :(
Maternity Policy: DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL.
I think its great that Cravath even has a written policy! Forgive me for my lack of sympathy for these women who feel pressure (and choose) to not take advantage of the existing policies. I work at a mid/large competitive NYC firm that has NO MATERNITY POLICY IN WRITING!!! After asking human resources 3x what the maternity policy was (I was initally handed a copy of the FMLA), I was told in a curt 1 line email that women get paid for 3 months. There is no written policy for maternity leave, flex time, part time, no paternity leave whatsoever and no LOA policy. One associate has even joked that the maternity policy here is "don't have a kid". So come on, can't we focus some energy of "outing" the policy-less firms instead of attacking the firms who already have policies in place and whose female associates cave to pressure not to take advantage of them???
52/67--
I know that's the party line-- prestige means everything because it determines your options. And I appreciate the advice.
But will it really make that much of a difference if I go back to my summer firm-- also in the top 20 of NY law firms, but nowhere near Cravath? There, at least I know people, have worked with them, and know how I fit in. Because I've not worked at Cravath, things like terrible statistics are what give me a picture of how it'd be to work there, but I don't really know how it all weighs out.
It may sound stupid, but I'm having a really hard time making up my mind-- seems like I feel one way one day, and the other way the next.
This stinks.
If you're not a hundre percent committed to Cravath, you wont make it, and i'm sure they won't want you. Also, they do not extend that many post clerkship offers, so outing yourself on above the law, unless you are lying, is stupid.
Great post Sophist. This is the kind of stuff I come to ATL to read about. And great work contacting the source of the rankings, and calling her out on the sweat shops that appear on the list. This gives me hope that you will be willing to contact firms when they do dumb stuff like this.
69-
Meh. Is anyone 100% committed to Cravath? Everyone I know there is always keeping an eye out for another job, some more actively than others, but still.
After all, like 63 said, that's why they go there in the first place.
8- No one can make this decision for you, and this probably isn't the best place to ask for that kind of advice.
It stinks like Cravath Ass in here!
69,
Still in today's economy, and not knowing where we are going to be in 3 years, I vote you go for the best you possibly can.
63/52
73- Fair point.
66- We can't put pressure on the firm to out them until you tell us what firm it is.
66- get on the pill or have the guy wrap it.
Putting the avatars at the bottom makes much more sense... then I can read the post before pre-judging the author. That should have been the practice all along - too bad Lat just thought of it now. The early rounds might have gone differently.
Henry is kind of a babe. I'd like have some flex time with her.
Free condoms at Cravath. Today only.
This is a pretty weak post by Sophist. Why did Sophist question Henry about the issues raised in #61?
Is Sophist not intelligent enough to figure out the obvious flaws of the presentation of this study or is Sophist just too soft to ask tough questions? Either way, its pretty sad for the future of ATL.
This is a pretty weak post by Sophist. Why did Sophist not question Henry about the issues raised in #61?
Is Sophist not intelligent enough to figure out the obvious flaws of the presentation of this study or is Sophist just too soft to ask tough questions? Either way, its pretty sad for the future of ATL.
Damn 75 -- That be cold blooded, dog. Damn. You must really hate women. Damn.
Simple Jack wants to work at Cravath. Simple Jack craves hims some Cravath.
Women should not have jobs as high powered lawyers and also raise children. People need to make choices and have priorities. It is very selfish for these women to neglect their children for stressfull law work.
I have to agree with 61 and 66. All well and good to know what firms claim to have good policies, but it would be better to shame other firms for not having good (or any) policies. Also, as pointed out, nice to know what the policy is, but how much pressure are those associates experiencing for using it or are otherwise affected?
I loved how my last firm had a written associate manual that said 8 weeks paid maternity leave, but upon confirming that with HR, I'm told that its really only 6 weeks because that's what the disability insurance pays (but I was certainly allowed to take another 6 weeks unpaid).
Ick... I really hate the way the list results (on the Working Mother site) use those big, baby-pastel boxes around each firm name. What, like women thinking about how their family plans will interact with their jobs can't process anything that doesn't look like it belongs in a nursery? Way to demand to be taken seriously.
I have to agree with 61 and 66. All well and good to know what firms claim to have good policies, but it would be better to shame other firms for not having good (or any) policies. Also, as pointed out, nice to know what the policy is, but how much pressure are those associates experiencing for using it or are otherwise affected?
I loved how my last firm had a written associate manual that said 8 weeks paid maternity leave, but upon confirming that with HR, I'm told that its really only 6 weeks because that's what the disability insurance pays (but I was certainly allowed to take another 6 weeks unpaid).
This is a terrible post. It should say in the first sentence where exactly Cravath ranked on this list, and everything should follow from there. Other examples of firms no one thinks are actually woman-friendly should also be specifically called out (rather than just saying there are a lot of sweatshops and expecting me to actually waste my time opening a pdf of the list). D-
Right on, 84. When will women learn that their highest priority always has been, and always will be, taking care of men and babies? It's simply ridiculous for individuals to make individual choices based on their families' needs and preferences. It's perfectly clear from up here in the clouds, where 84 and I sit, that each person who makes the choice to be both a parent and a lawyer is simply selfish. Wait, I mean woman, not person.
87: Agreed. Now that I'm at a much smaller firm, I have to laugh at my friends at my old firm who complain about how difficult it is for "female talent" at these bigger firms. Please. Try to spend a day as a staff member or as a lawyer in a less revered setting.
84 - my kids actually like me better than your kids like your overweight SAHM wife who wears sweaters with embroidered pumpkins on them and cries every night about how little you contribute to the household. They're happy that I have a brain and that, unlike your kids' daddy, I can spell.
I'm with 88 (sort of). A sample of the list for people who are curious but not interested enough to click through would have been good. For future reference.
91: Thanks for making all working mothers look like condescending assholes.
I was the tipster (or a tipster) who told ATL about this list - so I think peope are giving Sophist too much credit for breaking the story. Still, a well-written, well-timed post (and I voted for F&D last round)
I worked at one of the ranked firms and no one actually takes off the full amount of time given, "flex-time" means they respond to emails from attorneys/clients from home instead of the office, and that "part-time" policy for working mothers means they "only" bill 2000 hours. And I wouldn't call having 50% female associates and a less than 20% rate of female partners all that progressive either.
Too bad "Working Mother" didn't actually SPEAK to any women employed by those firms. I love blindly trusting the PR reps who send out all of the theoretically appealing (yet practically nearly obsolete) policies and procedures. And I also love relying on the bare numbers of female attorneys who have utilized these policies. Totally trustworthy survey. Thank goodness I had more sense than to rely on poorly researched articles than those found in "Working Mother" when I chose my law firm.
Too bad "Working Mother" didn't actually SPEAK to any women employed by those firms. I love blindly trusting the PR reps who send out all of the theoretically appealing (yet practically nearly obsolete) policies and procedures. And I also love relying on the bare numbers of female attorneys who have utilized these policies. Totally trustworthy survey. Thank goodness I had more sense than to rely on poorly researched articles like those found in "Working Mother" when I chose my law firm.
I worked at one of the ranked firms and no one actually takes off the full amount of time given, "flex-time" means they respond to emails from attorneys/clients from home instead of the office, and that "part-time" policy for working mothers means they "only" bill 2000 hours. And I wouldn't call having 50% female associates and a less than 20% rate of female partners all that progressive either.
So how did you choose your firm, 96/97? By talking to the associates who work there? Not like their dependency on the $200K/yr makes them more loyal to their firm than to the random potential hire or anything.
When Andrews Kurth interviewed me, they asked me how my husband felt about my career motivations. I sincerely doubt they have ever asked a male law student that question.
Totally not impressed with this list.
Nice work Sophist.
There are firms (few and far between mind you) that are women friendly, but you have to be very upfront with your expectations. I interviewed at a lot of firms and made sure the issue of my work hours and family committment was mentioned. It took a while and yes, I don't make as much as I did in my prior non-working mother friendly firm, but I did finally find a place where I don't feel guilty leaving at 5pm. I'm still expected to bill 2000+ hours, but at least not 2300+ hours.
What I wonder is whether women who want to go to lawschool know about this kind of environment (that working mothers are mostly discouraged). I sure didn't when I was a law student.
Female lawyers make me cringe. Female law students can lick my full schollie balls.
firms prefer lesbians - no child leave
at most firms, lesbians with partners adopt or have their non-working partner artificially inseminated
king & spalding has a few of these
most of them are workaholics and sociopaths
firms love em
Female "lawyers"....when it comes to hiring females, it's important to remember, you can teach them to type...but you can't teach them to have great tits.