At #1: that's plain bs. I don't get why there are so many fake rumors and negativity towards S&S.

whats the point of these posts??? i guess page views??

#1 here... I thought so too at first, but wondered why there were an abundance of S&S summers at OCI this year. A little digging and a few phone calls answered my curiousity.

Specific numbers may be off, but it was a significant portion.

i can validate 30 people were cold offered. everyone from my school is reinterviewing. stay away from them at all costs.

Arnold & Porter.. how is this firm in NY?

6, who said all the firms were in New York?

7, you are a FOOL!!!

Arnold & Porter is in New York:

http://www.arnoldporter.com/offices.cfm?u=NewYork&action=view&id=5

Try again, hot shot.

I've always been a little shocked that everyone expects to get an offer, even summers who dodge assignments, fail to follow through, and lack the maturity to keep their behavior within acceptable boundaries after an hour of free drinks. Shearman shouldn't be criticized for giving everyone an offer (especially in this market). Why not pull a few people aside (which still hasn't been confirmed) and let them know that they didn't exactly live up to expectations? If they still accept the offer, they know someone is keeping an eye on them and if they decide they weren't a good fit - all the better for everyone involved.

I can't believe White & Case LLP got a score of 7.054 while Shearman got 7.043. The race is down to eleven one hundreths of a point!!!!!!!!!!!!

""Gender- and reason-neutral flexible work arrangement program" (what does that mean?)"

My guess is that it means that no matter what your reason is for needing/wanting flexible work hours (i.e. children, elderly parents, extra long commute, teaching a class, etc.) it can be arranged. Thus, someone who wants to work 4 days a week so they can be home an extra day for their kids can do so just as equally as someone who wants to only work 4 days a week in the office because their commute is 2 hous each way. And it doesn't matter if its the man or the woman.

Of course, in biglaw, any request for 'flexible work hours' (no matter your gender or the reason) is likely to find you off the partnership track. But hey, if you like 'of counsel' knock yourself out on flexible hours.

I summered at WH in Boston and had a great time. The work is really interesting, and the assignments you get as a summer are substantive, not just make-work stuff. Everyone is really friendly, although there isn't as much drinking and partying as I've heard goes on at other firms.

10 --- I can't believe W&C has broken the top 20.

Why did Wilmer drop? I figured if anything, with the merger smoothening out, Wilmer would shoot up the rankings?

How's Wilmer for IP in DC?
Is Wilmer a place where you get a lot of early responsibility and can make partner?

At #5: if your school is a TTTTT, no wonder...

9=S&S shill, still desperately spinning.

What happened to W&C's huge summer class? Earlier articles said they had over 110 summers when they usually have about 70 or so. Did they all get offers?

Hey 10 - that's 11 one thousandths of a point.

Hey 10 - that's 11 one thousandths of a point.

One of the biggest New York douches I have ever met used to work at S&S (he's in a secondary market now at a shit firm) and would always talk about his times there. So if you like douchebags, I am guessing you would love that firm!

gibson is great

"Is Wilmer a place where you get a lot of early responsibility and can make partner?" - hahahahaha....good one

9) there obviously weren't 30 people in that class that just couldn't get their act together. The firm screwed up by overhiring and then tried to make up for it by giving an impossibly late start date and couple it with cold offers. There is no reason to continue to spin things when everyone knows shearman is a firm on its last breath.

how has shearman fallen to 19 so quickly?

Gibson Dunn....good shop.

Gibson Dunn....good shop.

#24 - "on its last breath"? Do you have any basis for this or are you just trying to jump on other firms because your firm isn't slated for discussion until we get to "Open Recruiting Thread Vault 96-100"?

I've litigated against a few Gibson people . . . can't say I've been overly impressed. Granted they had the crap end of the case, but their approach has been to simply swing for the fences the entire time, and that's killed whatever credibility they might otherwise have had as they've been caught repeatedly stretching the truth. Couple that with an unsympathetic client and they've turned a weak case into a completely unwinnable one, IMO

Re #14: I don't know why it dropped, but more importantly, why do you care? Are you really that concerned about a difference of two spots? If the rank matters to you that much you should just go work for Wachtell or Cravath.

As for Wilmer's IP dept. in DC, I was in Boston, but we worked with their DC office on IP stuff and it seems like they have a strong group down there. And the young associates I talked to certainly had a lot of responsibility and felt like they could make partner if they wanted to stick with it.

Re: 28

I'm not 24, but I can confirm S&S is not "on their last breath." They've had a bad (couple) years, but they're certainly not going out of business anytime in the immediate future.

That being said, they did cold offer a large portion of their summer class, mainly as a result of heavily over-recruiting. Purely economic issues.

On one hand, it's a positive that they have a partnership willing to do what is necessary to assure profits. On the other, if I were interviewing with them I'd be concerned about accepting an offer, because clearly the firm cares more about high profits, even if it's at the expense of summers/associates.

Short-term this formula will help them, but the long-term hit to quality of laterals/summers will haunt them in coming years, they won't have nearly as many top-notch attorneys in the lower levels.

A&P should be ranked higher.

I got a rejection letter from S & S about 3 hours after my on campus interview. Not the swiftest people.

i summered at gibson dunn in nyc. it was pretty awesome. everyone is super nice, and they don't take themselves too seriously, which is great. the amount of work seems pretty reasonable, too. summers worked about 9:45-7 or 7:30 on average, i'd say, and it seemed like associates kept the same hours in the office but took a little work home. obviously the amount of work varies, though. no face time requirement, so associates sometimes come in even later, and the office is pretty empty by 8:30. all in all a fun, laid back atmosphere, but the work itself is taken seriously and done well. i was very impressed by all the briefs i read. they also gave us good financial breakdowns that were very persuasive in showing that the firm is going to keep growing. i also don't know of any summers (out of 47) who did not get an offer. so all in all, i highly recommend it.

Are the layoff rumors at Shearman true?

I have a number of friends at A&P. They're very happy. As are my friends at Latham. Seem like two of the best places to work.

selectivity-wise at my CCN:

1. Wilmer DC (top 10% and LR usually)
2. Gibson (top 20% usually)
3. A&P (top 25% usually)
4. Wilmer other offices (above median)
BIG GAP
5. Shearman and W&C (bottom feeders)

36 - My friends at both places give the same reports.

37-- does that WH selectivity gap reflect a general prestige gap?

10: it's the damn Australian judge. Obviously biased; if they had any real law firms down there, maybe she'd know what was up.

I heard a bunch of people got no-offered at A&P's Detroit office.

IP at Wilmer DC is no joke.

A&P doesn't have a Detroit office.

39,

I'd say it does among some law students. It's kinda how Munger and Irell are really selective and just by virtue of that, they are regarded as prestigious, yet they get no love from Vault.

If you're referring to the gap between Wilmer DC and its other offices, yeah it does affect perceptions. If you got an offer from Wilmer DC, you're a stud, other offices not so much. So yeah, for what its worth, there is a prestige gap between offices.

Re 42: But is it better than Kirkland, Fish, Finnegan?

S&S has been around for 135 years. I highly doubt it is in any real danger.

34,

I'm glad to know that being a summer associate at Gibson Dunn was "pretty awesome." This is good news because we all know that firms design their programs to give summers an accurate picture of what working there is like.

Seriously, are you that naive?

47 is just bitter about his/her cold offer. Pay no mind.

29,

Your experience in dealing with one group of litigators at a big law firm is super important to all of us thinking about whether or not to join that firm. Can you tell us more? Have you ever gone up against Wilmer? How was that? I hear that some of their lawyers are awesome and some are just above average. Was that your experience? Anything else you want to pull from your two years practicing law that will make or break my decision about which firms to bid for and which are TTT? Thanks!

I summered at S&S this year and can tell you that there is no one who deserved an offer who got cold offered. I don't even know of anyone who got a cold offer. IF there were cold offers given, I can assure you those people did something wrong. With the market how it is and a summer class that turned out to be a little too large, why would a firm give offers (and a monster salary) to people who can't/won't do the minimal work required by a summer associate? Answer: they wouldn't.

It's clear that the class was a little bigger than it probably should have been, but with the later start date and a very light recruiting effort this year, things will be completely fine. To say that the firm is "on it's last breath" is laughable.

Also, why do people post comments like: "One of the biggest douches I have ever met used to work at S&S." How could that possibly be helpful to anyone? You knew 1 douche bag in a firm of 1,000 lawyers--thank you for that deep insight. One of the biggest douches I ever met used to post useless comments on legal blogs about other douche bags he knew. He was a real doucher.

#11 is right. The W&C "gender-neutral, reason-neutral" flex policy is meant to make this *seem* like less of a mommy track. Means men can do it (a couple do) and women who don't have kids can (one did it to catch a break).

Am very interested in what happens to the huge summer class, have heard no rumors yet.

dear 47,

yes, they treated us extra nicely, obviously, in terms of perks, but they didn't really shield us from real work. when i stayed late, everyone was gone by 10. everyone i met was genuinely happy. it's a nice place to be.

love,
34

I don't work at Gibson Dunn, but just a guess that if associates are going home early, then it might be because the economy is hosed and there's not much work available (at least in corporate). In other words, this may not be the positive sign you think it is.

Re: Shearman: they laid off people in the early 00s and it seems that they are cold offering SAs en masse now. Not a surprise if you know their history. They were once considered a top 5 firm.

The best way to evaluate a firm as a SA is not to simply look at the work you are getting, but to talk to junior/mid associates and see what their experience is like. Surprisingly few SAs actually do this.

What the hell does TTT mean in snobby ATL parlance? Can someone who considers themselves "in the know" fill me in? I am T14 ( I feel i need to say that in every post)

54--"TTT" is an abbreviation for Triple Threat Tailback, an offensive innovation introduced by Joe Paterno, football coach and holder of the Frank Rizzo Chair in Administrative Procedure at the University of Pennsylvania (Temple Campus) Law School in Philadelphia.

TTT is third tier toilet or something like that. It means bad, not prestigious, etc. I suggest ignoring any comment that includes it.

How would you compare Gibson Dunn's DC appellate practice to Asbestos Litigation, LLP's DC appellate practice?

53,

At least according to the numbers they're showing us, that's not true. People say they are busy (and they seem generally busy), but there's no face time, so they do some work at home and leave at a reasonable hour if they for some reason can't finish in the workday. They also don't leave early--they just don't often have to stay late. I'm not trying to feed lines or anything, but I legitimately got a very good vibe, in terms of the firm's financial performance, the workload, and the overall happiness of the associates. I wouldn't have bothered posting otherwise.

34

Gibson Dunn is a dreadful place to work if you fit any demographic outside "straight, white dude, preferably conservative." Truly - it's awful for women. I should know.

59,

I'm a gay, communist, transgender north africaneurasian. I have a Gibson Dunn interview tomorrow, what should I do?

Oh yeah, I also go to YLS.

58-- good news. Sometimes things are actually as they seem. Best of luck

-53

I worked at W&C and had a flexible work schedule. I worked 80% time but instead of trying to work 4 days a week, which never really happens, I took weeks off in between deals. I got 80% of the top bonus for my class, was still involved in amazing projects and didn't feel at all stigmatized by being on a reduced/flexible schedule. Also, I was only in the office 9-5 and worked from home any other hours (when not on my time off). I eventually left to go in-house, but I can't say enough good things about W&C's flex program.

White & Case NY did not cold offer or no offer at a higher rate than in a typical summer. But, they're not hiring 3Ls this year to make the #'s work.

Sucks to be a jobless 3L this year.

W&C cold offered around 40 summers. They send you a letter saying they overhired summers and will not have enough work. In the exit interview they tell you that you have an offer to return.

65 has no clue what he/she's talking about

A&P is extremely liberal. Possibly, the most liberal DC firm. Not a great places for conservatives. If you are conservative, better off at Gibson, Jones Day, Kirkland, or any handful of other firms.

I'd say the # of cold offers is more like 25 from Shearman this year.

But there's no real point in dissuading students from interviewing there, it's not like Shearman is anything but a backup for anybody anyway. The quality of life is atrocious even by NYC biglaw standards.

I work at A&P and disagree with 67.

I think what you all mean to say is...how does K&E relate to this thread?

I mean, its bonuses are just so vastly superior to any of these TTT firms, and yada, yada, yada. The reason these firms occupy the bottom quarter of the V20 is because K&E so heartily PWNS them all down to that level.

I'd stay away from S&S.

amen to 70. KE, its been on the upswing for the past decade. As long as it boosts its NY office, there's no stopping it.

I heard S&S cold-offers all the time. It's just that in this economy people are paying more attention to it.

49: I'd love to hear what you have to say after several years at S&S when you realize that ppl at S&S *are* douchebags.

Former S&S associate

Ugh--hope 48 doesn't end up at my firm. Hate arrogant, cocky first years who know nothing. Hate even worse arrogant, cocky law students who think they know everything.

48 - Feel free to ignore the comment if you don't feel it's helpful. All I know is that when I was interviewing, I took whatever information I could get, and gave it whatever weight I thought it deserved.

And not for nothing, but 74 clearly has you pegged. Good luck with your interviews. As someone who conducts 'em, maybe you'll find this advice more helpful: Lose the attitude, or it won't matter what firms you bid for, because you won't get many callbacks. (yes, yes, I know, you're a lock, right? Top school, top grades, top journals? Trust me, nice as your credentials may be, no firm worth working for hires assholes who don't come with a big book of business)

I hear S&S is giving their summers gender-and reason-neutral no-offers.

Damn I should've gone to Gibson Dunn.

65: again, this is bs backed by absolutely no evidence. S&S is one of the very few places with absolutely NO billable requirements. That's right. Whether you bill 1,600 or 2,500 hours, you get the same bonus, which is always on par with market. Oh, and shall I say that S&S has a free cafeteria 3 days a week ?

I'm a mid-level at S&S, my department has never been busier. I don't know where you guys get your information from? I'm not the career services at Loyola or Seton Hall are the best sources guys. Maybe you can ask your friends from T1 schools.

I'm a mid-level at S&S, my department has never been busier. I don't know where you guys get your information from? I'm not sure the career services at Loyola or Seton Hall are the best sources guys. Maybe you can ask your friends from T1 schools.

55 = TTT

80 i hope you enjoy unemployment. stop hating on where people went to school and defend giving cold offers to large portion of your last summer class, making the earliest start date novemeber 30th, and the fact that you've gone from a top five to barely hanging in the top 20. you are an idiot.

This website suuuuuuuucks.

i'm an associate at Shearman. i really don't understand why we've fallen to 19 so quickly while i thought we did well. any explaination?

btw, the 2009 ranking came before the summer events of Shearman so it shouldn't be a factor.

i'm an associate at Shearman. i really don't understand why we've fallen to 19 so quickly while i thought we did well. any explaination?

btw, the 2009 ranking came before the summer events of Shearman so it shouldn't be a factor.

85 - perhaps the fact that the associates Shearman hires spell explanation the way you do .....

78 and 84 (whom I assume are S&S associates) have a terrible grasp on the English language. How TTT is that?

64 is absolutely lying. No one was told during their exit interviews whether or not they would have an offer. W&C called all of its summers on Aug 8, one week after the last day of the program, to inform them about offers. I haven't heard of anyone getting no- or cold- offered, even people you might have expected to be. I'm not saying everyone got an offer, I'm just saying 64 is full of s***.

Gibson DC may be one of the strongest big law offices in the country. Hard to get in if you're not a law review editor at Harvard or Yale. High profile litigation (appellate, labor, antitrust, securities) and corporate practices (transactions, funds, governance).

Gibson Dunn DC: appellate practice is top notch. Government contract work, if you're into that sort of thing, is the very best. (Some way Crowell, but if you work in the industry you know its GD). GD treats they're associates well, and they should as they're very choosy with first years. They're more open minded about laterals though. If you have a good track record they're happy to pick up third and fourth years from lower ranked tier 1 schools. They do tend to lean politically conservative in that office, but in all honesty, it really doesn't matter. Whether your colleagues are conservative or liberal you do the same work for the same giant corporations. If you're in it to save the pandas, you probably shouldn't work in biglaw anyway. PS - I don't work at GD, I just have some professional respect for them.

58: I'm straight, white, conservative and a dude. Will I make partner at Gibson?

Gibson DC's appellate and commercial lit practices are top notch. Corporate group is small but filled with all stars, and antitrust and trade are both very strong. As 90 mentioned, good public contracts group but not as big as Crowell's. If you have the grades and the personality, I would say that K&E is the only other firm on this list that would compare.

Re: Sidley NY:

- 2000 billing req. to hit market bonus.
- Big enough to find a practice group with people you like, work you enjoy, or hopefully both (I think some poster above mentioned working for a "bigger" firm if he/she worked in NY...if that poster was referring to number of attorneys, I think Sidley is one of the 10 largest in NYC?).
- Has a strong corp practice. Capital markets/securitization/ fund work/financial services work comes to mind.

I have friends who work at Sidley, some love it, some don't. It sounds like a solid place to work, but like any big firm, I'm sure it has its share of faults.

I have to say that its a little unnerving that V20 firms are being accused of cold/no-offering summers. I guess that pretty much means you have to be V15 or V10 to be safe.

94 - anyone who uses Vault to choose a law firm is a true idiot, and deserves to be no-offered.

I summered at Wilmer NY and think I got a pretty good feel. The firm has national prestige and New York actually does much of the same type of appellate work done in D.C.. Also strong NY practices are IP Lit, Securities and general Commercial Lit. I found the office culture surprisingly laid back for NY office; intellectual but not in a socially stifling way. Generally just good people, super pro bono stuff. Softball team is not championship material but still fun. I chose Wilmer over Gibson and am very satisfied with the decision.

I summered at Wilmer NY and think I got a pretty good feel. The firm has national prestige and New York actually does much of the same type of appellate work done in D.C.. Also strong NY practices are IP Lit, Securities and general Commercial Lit. I found the office culture surprisingly laid back for NY office; intellectual but not in a socially stifling way. Generally just good people, super pro bono stuff. Softball team is not championship material but still fun. I chose Wilmer over Gibson and am very satisfied with the decision.

In response to #64's comment that White & Case cold-offered 40 summers: completely wrong. No letters were sent discussing overhiring, and job offers simply were not discussed during the exit interview--offers were formally given the week after the summer program ended. I'm only aware of one person who did not receive an offer.

At #14 - Why did Wilmer drop? Well, for starters despite a stellar year with LOTS of High Profile Court WINS, WilmerHale, especially the DC office, has a major morale problem (see this Oct 1 post by Lat, http://abovethelaw.com/2007/10/whats_up_with_wilmerhale.php)

What about GDC outside of DC?

Did the summer at Shearman with the mullet get an offer?