First, evah!!! :>)

Dag nabitt! I didn't make it. :>(

2: It looks like you've been outdone by a curious law student. How does it feel?

Stroooooooooooooock

4: who cares about rank in Chicago? What a waste of First!

2 and 3

6: I'm wondering what rank out of Chicago for these firms. Top quarter? Top third? Any insight would be appreciated.

Katten's transactional groups (particularly real estate) have been slow for the past year.

I know somebody at Dorsey. In Minneapolis, you can't go wrong with them.

Give me a shot of eightsky.

I interviewed at Arent Fox. Some of the most arrogant people I've ever met....

The two partners I met with were both like 60 years old and went on and on about what law schools they went to. Feel free to move on and turn the page.

11: that's entirely acceptable. Keep in mind that they're interviewing at a law school, and they probably want to connect with you. There's nothing that says "bonding" like the story of your first Socratic cold-call, or how you missed a cite-check on your Law Review note and had to settle for a non-SCOTUS clerkship.

Crowell & Moring seems to be an up and coming firm. Great litigation partners. Just look through their bios.

Arent Fox DC seems like it would be a great deal. You get to live in the nation's capital and work at a law firm.

12 -

Wrong. I was interviewing at their office (it was a call-back). It was more than just finding "common ground" - it was essentially a way to pat themselves on the back. I've never seen anything like it. Very arrogant.

15: it depends on where they went to school and what they did there. A YLS/SCOTUS clerk can discuss it for hours.

Glad to see that Baker & Hostetler is moving even further up the list above Squire Sanders. Squire has gone way down in the rankings over the last couple of years. But, Baker needs to up its starting salary.

Venable associates are able to live in Baltimore. It's a gorgeous, affordable sea-side city, and I've heard that the hours are reasonable. (Did I mention they're a half-hour drive away from DC?) I think that's a great deal.

Is it just me, or does "having your tupperware washed" seem like it could be a really filthy euphemism?

Crowell is great for government contracts work. A very strong presence and excellent reputation.

You have to love that Dorsey pays 130k to first years in Seattle and Denver, but can still get away with only 120k in Minneapolis (the HQ no less).

21: I have a few good friends in Minneapolis. Trust me: 120k is more than enough for a comfortable lifestyle in that city; the purchasing power is enormous. I have a college friend who can afford a Franklin Street pad on a pizza delivery boy's salary.

Dickstein also seems very up and coming.

And bonus points to them -

One of their partners helped out Brian McNamey deal with that piece of scum Roger Clemens.

Finnegan's IP-only, so you'll need a technical background for everything but the trademark group. Fine place to work, though.

Also, 21, most of their associates aren't burdened with debt because they attended the local state school. 120k should be excellent compensation.

I thought Venable was an ointment for crotch warts.

26: It's called a homonym. Read some Wittgenstein!

They're also a prestigious law firm.

1 & 7: You only need to be top-half to be competitive anywhere but V25. If you're below the median and you're not URM, the lord tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're fucked.

Cruel and Boring rocks.

18 is rofl. the bmore? ever seen the wire?

I'm in Baker's Bratislava office and I agree with 17.. Our salaries are WAY under market.

stroooooooock went downhill ever since they stopped with the penguins. ah, the heyday of my youth spending hours playing strooooooock bowl online....

30: Wire is to Baltimore as The Simpsons is to Springfield, Massachusetts. Please be more careful about distinguishing between reality and fiction next time.

Finnegan = epitome of watch me (partner) work on important things while you (associate) get busy body "billable" work that does not translate into real experience outside the firm. The number of mid-levels that leave and complain about the shop is telling. Don't believe the hype, the associates are prodded into saying nice things (but then again, the firm is #90).

Arent Fox DC seems like it would be a great deal. You get to live in the nation's capital and work at a law firm.
__________________________________________

Aim high, 14.

How is Venable even on this list? That never ceases to amaze me. Anyone who works in DC knows that they are a laughing stock. Didn't they not even pay market for a while (maybe they still don't)

Where is Bratislava??

Can anyone comment on Dorsey's Bratislava office?

How are the girls at Venerial LLP?

18 - Baltimore is not a sea side city. It is on a river. And have you ever seen the river? It's filled with trash and the occassional dead body. Besides that, B'more is a shit town - drug addicts, homelessness, property taxes through the roof, crumbling infrastructure and crime like you would not believe (ranks in top five for murders).

Venable DC is a different story. A decent firm with interesting work and decent billable hour requirements. Salaries and bonuses, however, are way below market after the first year. Still a decent living, just not even close to market.

34=dead on

34=dead on

40: If Baltimore is so bad, then why do Michael Phelps, Bush's daughter, and the people on the Wire all want to live there?

How high are Property taxes? They can't be more than a few thousand dollars. Max.

I'm so itchy. Does anybody have some spare Venable I can borrow?

My first choice was Dickstein, but since I didn't know them as well as I should have a I got a Venable disease on my STROOK.

McGuireWoods is still around??? I remember a partner in their JAX office getting pinched for major securities fraud a couple years back. NICE FIRM!!!!!!!!!

28 - What is "URM"?

McGuireWoods is building a pretty sweet energy practice

venable is terrible. they get the same work and have relatively the same billables as everywhere else, but pay much much less. only people there are those that didn't get offers at other dc shops, biding their time til they can lateral to a firm that actually pays associates the market rate.

I've lived in Baltimore, and there are a lot of nice people, and the lifestyle of a lawyer is better (i.e., better hours and your money goes farther). While there are some cool places to live in Baltimore, there are many, many places you don't want to live.

46 - UnderRepresentedMinority

It looks like they just missed V100 this year. But any thoughts on Manatt?

NALP says that Venable Baltimore pays 160k, and Venable DC pays 160k as well. I don't know why 48 is complaining.

It looks like they just missed V100 this year. But any thoughts on Manatt?

52 -- Because I'm no longer a first year.

54: Good point. I'm sure you can lateral in a year or two, though, if you're unsatisfied.

Can we have an open thread about non-V100 firms and regional firms that still might appeal to us? I'd like to see more discussion of the type of firm that 53 brings up.

37,, Bratislava is the capital of the Slovak Republic. It's called Google, you ignorant fuck. Try using it before posting lame questions and wasting space.

Can anyone comment on your mom's office?

45 - I was friendly with the guy at McGuireWoods (worked with him at his previous firm) that got nabbed for securities fraud - he would have been the last guy you would have expected to be involved in anything like that. The firm turned him in after an associate noticed things didn't seem right on one of his PIPE deals. Seems like the firm did everything it was supposed to do.

28 - What is "URM"?
__________________________________________

The people that we blame for all of our failures.

Dorsey is great in MN, but it is a sinking ship in DC and NYC.

Arent Fox used to be a better firm in DC and have more diverse practices and now it seems like the only thing it has going for it is healthcare and ERISA work. Also, many associates are not from T14 law schools.

61: who cares? That means that, as a T14 graduate, you're likely to stand out. (It's also possible that they prefer recruiting top students from lower-ranked law schools for their own reasons.)

59-
I know/knew him and his practice as well. He certainly not the last person I would have suspected, could just be me though.
Very truly,
45

Has the rumor that Dickstein laid off 6 associates Monday been confirmed?

Crowell & Moring = #1 firm in awesomelaw.

18 -- put down the Baltimore kool-aid. Gorgeous? B-more is a stain on the eastern seabord, much like Philly. It should be bulldozed.

Seaside? Yeah, if you like dirty harbors. It's not exactly near the beach.

62, if firms didn't want students from the best schools than why would school ranking matter? The best firms want students from the best schools. Taking students from T3 and T4 schools is TTT.

Crowell & Moring has treated me very well. Good litigation experience, reasonable hours, enjoyable colleagues. Ultimately I don't want to work at a firm, but if you have to do it, there are many worse places to be. I wouldn't work at another firm in the city.

67: that's not what I said. A firm of their stature and standing can do one of two things:

1. recruit the bottom-feeders from schools like Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. These are the C+/B- students.

2. recruit the best local and regional students from lower-ranked schools. These are the LR/cum laude types from less prestigious, but still reputable, schools.

Sometimes, management decides that 2 is a better deal. I don't necessarily blame them.

Stroock no offered 20% of their summer class. Worst. Firm. Ever. How come this hasn't been mentioned once in any of your posts Lat?? 20% is a massive amount of no offers

61 - it was funny how many dorsey partners in ny and dc i met on callbacks . . . with other firms. other than "so tell me what you did last summer" the most heard line in my interviews was "i actually just came here from dorsey & whitney a few months ago..."

it should be noted, however, that they were all really nice, among the friendliest people i've encountered in law.

"Also, many associates are not from T14 law schools."

Oh, dear lord NO!!

64: No, but the rumor that Dickstein laid 6 inches of pipe into your mother is.

57=McSame Supporter

Dorsey isn't even the best firm in Minneapolis - I want to know how they are on this list at all. It must be the prestige of their Alaskan office.

Arent Fox is growing really aggressively in LA; not too old or pompous, either. Plus, Bela Lugosi is of counsel. Doesn't show up on vault, but it probably should.

I hear good things abuot Strook (nothwithstanding the no offers this summer): nice people, decent lifestyle and bonus structure similar, though not equal, to other firms.

Venable is not a disease you ignorant skank. It is a highly regarded law firm in DC!! Do your research!

Katten overhired and no-offered multiple summers this year.

78 = hoping the firm improves its image, one scab at a time.

on what planet is baltimore a 30 minute drive from D.C.? it's an hour, with no traffic. i don't know a single attorney who lives in bmore and works in d.c.

Hi--I am a rising 2nd year working in NY interested in doing exclusively soft IP. Any hope for me? Can anyone shed some light on Patterson Belknap. It gets stellar rankings everywhere but on this Vault list.

In reference to my comment above, I mean soft IP LITIGATION. thanks.

81: It's a half-hour into Chevy Chase. And another ten minutes, maximum, until the Mall. You might drive like an old lady at a DMV test.

Is there anyone out there who works at a firm and likes it? Anyone??

For every firm that comes up, someone says it sucks. Firm A sucks because the associates are slaves. Firm B sucks because the partners are assholes. Firm C sucks becuase the associates are slaves working for assholes.

Is there any hope in this business? Why are we all here?

85 you are right on

i am a 1L at a top 50 school, fluent in slovak (grew up there until i was 11, etc.). is there a high demand for united states trained lawyers in bratislava? i'm starting to worry about my career prospect's in the us and would love advice on practicing law in my home country.

i am a 1L at a top 50 school, fluent in slovak (grew up there until i was 11, etc.). is there a high demand for united states trained lawyers in bratislava? i'm starting to worry about my career prospect's in the us and would love advice on practicing law in my home country.

85: I've met some content in-house people. They often report high levels of job satisfaction.

85: ignore generic whining and look for substantive information here like no-offered summers and stealth layoffs. The general associate whining is largely comprised of tools who failed to do basic due diligence on what lawyers actually do before going JD/BigLaw.

85, you're right. Everyone wants "prestige" and mocks the V50 as if it's "TTT" to make 160k starting and work on slightly less glamorous deals than a V10 firm. I have been practicing for a while (V10, not that it matters). I honestly think the smartest people are the ones that go to smaller shops in smaller cities from the outset. The quality of life is better, the salary is just fine for the market, and you probably get better experience on a day-to-day basis, even if it's not in cases that appear in the WSJ.

The fact that a bunch of law students are on here criticizing the PPP at one place versus another is just silly. Only about 30% of you are even going to last through your fifth year.

85: I don't think practicing at a big law firm is a lost cause. I think there are a few geuninely happy associates, guestimate=15% (high-end). But i think they luck out. Do exactly the work they want to do, end up working with the two great partners at the firm actually itnerested in training.... But i don't hink happiness at a big law firm is the norm, it's the exceptions. But mind you, alot of people in other fields hate their jobs too. at least we have the fat paycheck to show for it. my only advice is grind it out for a few years and go in-house. with a good in-house gig you can call your own shots once you get back to the law firm and i'm guessing have a much better quality of life.

67 - I graduated from Columbia law and had plenty of classmates (and not just the C+/B- ones) I wouldn't want anywhere near a case or client of mine with a 10 foot pole. Some of the best attorneys I know graduated from Brooklyn law or St. Johns. Firms that limit themselves to T5/10/whatever schools in order to bump their prestige among small minded law students concerned with "selectivity" rather than recruit the best people wherever they can find them, are only screwing themselves. Yes, there are practical limits to how many schools firms can recruit at - but it's not 5 or 15.

Back on topic, for a sec - a classmate of mine summered at Arent Fox and hated it. Said they broke promises to her about the type of work she'd be getting and treated her like crap.

On the other hand, she was one of those straight A students that I wouldn't want near any case or client of mine, so take it with a grain of salt.

85: it is not as bad as some make it seem, however, law firm life is a grind. We will soon see the full benefit of a slow economy hit the law firm ranks ... those around in the early 90's know that story all too well.

I like working at my firm. Perhaps not coincidentally, it's neither on this list nor based in NY.

82, I've dealt w/ folks from PBWT on several occasions, and they've always proven to be nice people and good lawyers. PB is pretty well-respected by a lot of litigators who know their business (as opposed to 1L gunners posting on ATL).

You can get a bad case of Venable in your Cravath from an unprotected Fried Frank if you are not careful.

93, I completely agree. Prestige of law school may get you in the door but I find some of the most practical (and effective) litigators to be from lower-tiered schools.

maybe the problem is that practising law sucks no matter the size of the office

84 - Why would you be going through Chevy Chase to get to DC from Baltimore?

97: The most intelligent and competent one I know attended Brooklyn. I've yet to see any, and I mean any, correlation or relation between competence and school rank.

87/88 -- I recommend reading the comments on some of these Fall Recruiting threads about Bratislava offices.. I keep hearing about offices being closed (Hunton), below market pay (Baker, above) and no-offering summers (Steptoe). I'd reconsider BraTTTislava. Maybe Warsaw, Kiev or Almaty would be better.

Regarding Manatt, it's kind of a joke to see many these other firms listed above them and speaks to the general ignorance of the people who respond to Vault surveys on "prestige." Manatt had PPP of about $1.25 m last year, about double Venable's or Arent's. Both of those firms are regularly bleeding partners to more profitable shops. And didn't Dorsey nearly fold entirely a year or two back, during the boom?

99: Because you want a good cup of coffee. Do you have a counterargument?

@ 96: Don't scratch it. Only makes it worse.

this is what mapquest has to say bout bmore to dc:

Estimated Time: 58 minutes Estimated Distance: 40.89 miles

105: that's because they're calculating the DC limits. If you want to get to the Mall from downtown Baltimore, it should take you no longer than forty minutes, and maybe an hour in rush hour.

Thanks, 95. 82 needs more attention....anyone?

I worked for Baker in two different offices and thought the people there were great. The Vault review of the firm is very accurate, i.e. the firm respects your time and gives you lots of food. The complaints about the NY pay are also accurate. The firm gets away with some salary compression in NY because there's plenty of burned-out midlevels trying to lateral to Baker.

One good thing about the firm is how much they care about what you want career-wise. They let you try out different practice groups for the first two years and even after that, if you want to switch groups they help to make that happen. When I wanted to change offices, partners in office #1 got on the phone with office #2 and got everything started so I could meet with office #2. The transition was easy, and this was also true of many other colleagues who moved offices. Practice group heads are very responsive to career concerns like when you want to work with different people or try out new projects, etc. Overall a great place to work, unless you're a NY midlevel who wants that extra 30k badly enough to work in your typical shitty biglaw environment (unfortunately, that was me).

Only people with Venable use mapquest.

Baker and Hostetler....yucks!

Baker has a good thing going in Cleveland, New York and DC. Tons of happy people in those offices. Not so sure about the others.

111, not so according to last year's Vault thread, especially with respect to Cleveland

79=bullshit!

79=bullshit!

Dorsey is 120 in MN? Why the hell wouldn't you just work at Fish & Richardson which pays 160k with NY payscale/no compression ( and with NY-sized bonuses)?

Baker has a very good office in Denver. Very happy folks there and excellent attorneys.

ATL should run a story on some of the smaller regional markets (i.e., Denver). We have a good gig here, but that does not mean we work solely on M&A deals trading cattle.

There are definitely great firms in these markets and firms to avoid and more and more law students are realizing how great it is to work in Denver.

116: I have no ties to Denver, or anywhere else out West, for that matter. How can I convince them that I want to work there?

79 is wrong.

I'd like to see a thread about what it's like to work in Bratislava. We slovaks don't get enough representation on this blog...

108 - I totally agree.

87/88, Stop the Bratislava foil. No matter how hard you try, it won't become indoctrinated in the comments of ATL like FRATSTUD.

Gosh, kids in my high school persistently repeated unfunny remarks all the time in the hopes of originating a comical vernacular, it was no big deal.

84 & 106 - You've clearly got your head up your ass, or you work for the Baltimore Chamber of Commerce (which is an oxymoron).

There is no way in hell that in rush hour traffic you can get from Balto to DC in 30 min, or even an hour -- unless your're taking the Acela

It will take you more than 30 mintues to get from 95 to Chevy Chase in the morning on the Beltway alone.

Soon to be first years take note: Live in the city where you are working (would you want to drive to Baltimore at 2 AM when you finish work every night??)

Does anyone out there work at Stroock??? does anyone uot there know anyone who works at Stroock?

122: My comments aren't exactly controversial. I don't know why you insist on rebuking them.

A. Baltimore is an affordable, attractive, and vibrant city for young professionals. Whether Baltimore residents are enjoying a fine day at the port, or hanging five at one of the city's fine sports stadiums, they're doing well.

B. Baltimore is, at most, an hour away from DC. You can slice that time in half when the roads are less congested.

117,

116 here. Breaking into the Denver market without any ties can be difficult. The firms here are becoming less Colorado-centric, but they still jealously guard their "connected" status. I think that if you can convince them that you are here to stay for the long-run and are either coming from a top school or lateraling from a good firm, it should not be a problem.

There are VERY good firms here that do very high level corporate and real estate work.

Any more insight on PBWT or exclusively practicing soft IP lit in NY?

Bratislava Boy = FRAT STUD. It is no big deal.

That BraTTTislava stuff is gold!!! Keep it up!

Bratislava to FRATSTUD!

79: which office are you referring to? I don't think Katten has given out any summer offers yet, so I think you have bad info.

79: which office are you referring to? I don't think Katten has given out any summer offers yet, so I think you have bad info.

124 - you must be using some of the herion for which Baltimore is famous.

However, I will restrict my comments solely to commuting. Driving from downtown Baltimore to downtown DC during morning rush hour will take close to 2 hours. Same in reverse for the evening commute.

While the downtown areas are only approximately 40 miles apart, DC metro area congestion is legendary. Traveling during off hours lessens the commute to about 50 minutes.

124 - you must be using some of the herion for which Baltimore is famous.

However, I will restrict my comments solely to commuting. Driving from downtown Baltimore to downtown DC during morning rush hour will take close to 2 hours. Same in reverse for the evening commute.

While the downtown areas are only approximately 40 miles apart, DC metro area congestion is legendary. Traveling during off hours lessens the commute to about 50 minutes.

"Baltimore is an affordable, attractive, and vibrant city for young professionals. Whether Baltimore residents are enjoying a fine day at the port, or hanging five at one of the city's fine sports stadiums, they're doing well."

Could you sound more contrived? I've never been to Baltimore, and for all I know it could be paradise. But you are definitely supporting 122's claim that you're from the Chamber of Commerce with comments like that.

I hate people who talk about commuting to/from Baltimore more than I hate Venable Herpes.

The problem with McGuire Woods isn't the people, it's their treatment of people. They "raised" salaries based on the Hunton scale, but only applied that scale to 1st years. 1st years were making more than some 8th years. Almost 50 Richmond associates were not making the $145k salary given to 1st years.

In order for any 2nd - 8th year associate to get the top of the scale, they had to meet 4 criteria, one of which was being voted the best in the deparment by the department head for a 3 year group. Very few associates could meet all 4 factors, so very few matched the Hunton scale.