First, evah!!! :>)

Dag nabitt! I didn't make it. :>(

2: It looks like you've been outdone by a curious law student. How does it feel?

Stroooooooooooooock

4: who cares about rank in Chicago? What a waste of First!

2 and 3

6: I'm wondering what rank out of Chicago for these firms. Top quarter? Top third? Any insight would be appreciated.

Katten's transactional groups (particularly real estate) have been slow for the past year.

I know somebody at Dorsey. In Minneapolis, you can't go wrong with them.

Give me a shot of eightsky.

I interviewed at Arent Fox. Some of the most arrogant people I've ever met....

The two partners I met with were both like 60 years old and went on and on about what law schools they went to. Feel free to move on and turn the page.

11: that's entirely acceptable. Keep in mind that they're interviewing at a law school, and they probably want to connect with you. There's nothing that says "bonding" like the story of your first Socratic cold-call, or how you missed a cite-check on your Law Review note and had to settle for a non-SCOTUS clerkship.

Crowell & Moring seems to be an up and coming firm. Great litigation partners. Just look through their bios.

Arent Fox DC seems like it would be a great deal. You get to live in the nation's capital and work at a law firm.

12 -

Wrong. I was interviewing at their office (it was a call-back). It was more than just finding "common ground" - it was essentially a way to pat themselves on the back. I've never seen anything like it. Very arrogant.

15: it depends on where they went to school and what they did there. A YLS/SCOTUS clerk can discuss it for hours.

Glad to see that Baker & Hostetler is moving even further up the list above Squire Sanders. Squire has gone way down in the rankings over the last couple of years. But, Baker needs to up its starting salary.

Venable associates are able to live in Baltimore. It's a gorgeous, affordable sea-side city, and I've heard that the hours are reasonable. (Did I mention they're a half-hour drive away from DC?) I think that's a great deal.

Is it just me, or does "having your tupperware washed" seem like it could be a really filthy euphemism?

Crowell is great for government contracts work. A very strong presence and excellent reputation.

You have to love that Dorsey pays 130k to first years in Seattle and Denver, but can still get away with only 120k in Minneapolis (the HQ no less).

21: I have a few good friends in Minneapolis. Trust me: 120k is more than enough for a comfortable lifestyle in that city; the purchasing power is enormous. I have a college friend who can afford a Franklin Street pad on a pizza delivery boy's salary.

Dickstein also seems very up and coming.

And bonus points to them -

One of their partners helped out Brian McNamey deal with that piece of scum Roger Clemens.

Finnegan's IP-only, so you'll need a technical background for everything but the trademark group. Fine place to work, though.

Also, 21, most of their associates aren't burdened with debt because they attended the local state school. 120k should be excellent compensation.

I thought Venable was an ointment for crotch warts.

26: It's called a homonym. Read some Wittgenstein!

They're also a prestigious law firm.

1 & 7: You only need to be top-half to be competitive anywhere but V25. If you're below the median and you're not URM, the lord tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're fucked.

Cruel and Boring rocks.

18 is rofl. the bmore? ever seen the wire?

I'm in Baker's Bratislava office and I agree with 17.. Our salaries are WAY under market.

stroooooooock went downhill ever since they stopped with the penguins. ah, the heyday of my youth spending hours playing strooooooock bowl online....

30: Wire is to Baltimore as The Simpsons is to Springfield, Massachusetts. Please be more careful about distinguishing between reality and fiction next time.

Finnegan = epitome of watch me (partner) work on important things while you (associate) get busy body "billable" work that does not translate into real experience outside the firm. The number of mid-levels that leave and complain about the shop is telling. Don't believe the hype, the associates are prodded into saying nice things (but then again, the firm is #90).

Arent Fox DC seems like it would be a great deal. You get to live in the nation's capital and work at a law firm.
__________________________________________

Aim high, 14.

How is Venable even on this list? That never ceases to amaze me. Anyone who works in DC knows that they are a laughing stock. Didn't they not even pay market for a while (maybe they still don't)

Where is Bratislava??

Can anyone comment on Dorsey's Bratislava office?

How are the girls at Venerial LLP?

18 - Baltimore is not a sea side city. It is on a river. And have you ever seen the river? It's filled with trash and the occassional dead body. Besides that, B'more is a shit town - drug addicts, homelessness, property taxes through the roof, crumbling infrastructure and crime like you would not believe (ranks in top five for murders).

Venable DC is a different story. A decent firm with interesting work and decent billable hour requirements. Salaries and bonuses, however, are way below market after the first year. Still a decent living, just not even close to market.

34=dead on

34=dead on

40: If Baltimore is so bad, then why do Michael Phelps, Bush's daughter, and the people on the Wire all want to live there?

How high are Property taxes? They can't be more than a few thousand dollars. Max.

I'm so itchy. Does anybody have some spare Venable I can borrow?

My first choice was Dickstein, but since I didn't know them as well as I should have a I got a Venable disease on my STROOK.

McGuireWoods is still around??? I remember a partner in their JAX office getting pinched for major securities fraud a couple years back. NICE FIRM!!!!!!!!!

28 - What is "URM"?

McGuireWoods is building a pretty sweet energy practice

venable is terrible. they get the same work and have relatively the same billables as everywhere else, but pay much much less. only people there are those that didn't get offers at other dc shops, biding their time til they can lateral to a firm that actually pays associates the market rate.

I've lived in Baltimore, and there are a lot of nice people, and the lifestyle of a lawyer is better (i.e., better hours and your money goes farther). While there are some cool places to live in Baltimore, there are many, many places you don't want to live.

46 - UnderRepresentedMinority

NALP says that Venable Baltimore pays 160k, and Venable DC pays 160k as well. I don't know why 48 is complaining.

It looks like they just missed V100 this year. But any thoughts on Manatt?

It looks like they just missed V100 this year. But any thoughts on Manatt?

52 -- Because I'm no longer a first year.

54: Good point. I'm sure you can lateral in a year or two, though, if you're unsatisfied.

Can we have an open thread about non-V100 firms and regional firms that still might appeal to us? I'd like to see more discussion of the type of firm that 53 brings up.

37,, Bratislava is the capital of the Slovak Republic. It's called Google, you ignorant fuck. Try using it before posting lame questions and wasting space.

Can anyone comment on your mom's office?

45 - I was friendly with the guy at McGuireWoods (worked with him at his previous firm) that got nabbed for securities fraud - he would have been the last guy you would have expected to be involved in anything like that. The firm turned him in after an associate noticed things didn't seem right on one of his PIPE deals. Seems like the firm did everything it was supposed to do.

28 - What is "URM"?
__________________________________________

The people that we blame for all of our failures.

Dorsey is great in MN, but it is a sinking ship in DC and NYC.

Arent Fox used to be a better firm in DC and have more diverse practices and now it seems like the only thing it has going for it is healthcare and ERISA work. Also, many associates are not from T14 law schools.

61: who cares? That means that, as a T14 graduate, you're likely to stand out. (It's also possible that they prefer recruiting top students from lower-ranked law schools for their own reasons.)

59-
I know/knew him and his practice as well. He certainly not the last person I would have suspected, could just be me though.
Very truly,
45

Has the rumor that Dickstein laid off 6 associates Monday been confirmed?

Crowell & Moring = #1 firm in awesomelaw.

18 -- put down the Baltimore kool-aid. Gorgeous? B-more is a stain on the eastern seabord, much like Philly. It should be bulldozed.

Seaside? Yeah, if you like dirty harbors. It's not exactly near the beach.

62, if firms didn't want students from the best schools than why would school ranking matter? The best firms want students from the best schools. Taking students from T3 and T4 schools is TTT.

Crowell & Moring has treated me very well. Good litigation experience, reasonable hours, enjoyable colleagues. Ultimately I don't want to work at a firm, but if you have to do it, there are many worse places to be. I wouldn't work at another firm in the city.

67: that's not what I said. A firm of their stature and standing can do one of two things:

1. recruit the bottom-feeders from schools like Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. These are the C+/B- students.

2. recruit the best local and regional students from lower-ranked schools. These are the LR/cum laude types from less prestigious, but still reputable, schools.

Sometimes, management decides that 2 is a better deal. I don't necessarily blame them.

Stroock no offered 20% of their summer class. Worst. Firm. Ever. How come this hasn't been mentioned once in any of your posts Lat?? 20% is a massive amount of no offers

61 - it was funny how many dorsey partners in ny and dc i met on callbacks . . . with other firms. other than "so tell me what you did last summer" the most heard line in my interviews was "i actually just came here from dorsey & whitney a few months ago..."

it should be noted, however, that they were all really nice, among the friendliest people i've encountered in law.

"Also, many associates are not from T14 law schools."

Oh, dear lord NO!!

64: No, but the rumor that Dickstein laid 6 inches of pipe into your mother is.

57=McSame Supporter

Dorsey isn't even the best firm in Minneapolis - I want to know how they are on this list at all. It must be the prestige of their Alaskan office.

Arent Fox is growing really aggressively in LA; not too old or pompous, either. Plus, Bela Lugosi is of counsel. Doesn't show up on vault, but it probably should.

I hear good things abuot Strook (nothwithstanding the no offers this summer): nice people, decent lifestyle and bonus structure similar, though not equal, to other firms.

Venable is not a disease you ignorant skank. It is a highly regarded law firm in DC!! Do your research!

Katten overhired and no-offered multiple summers this year.

78 = hoping the firm improves its image, one scab at a time.

on what planet is baltimore a 30 minute drive from D.C.? it's an hour, with no traffic. i don't know a single attorney who lives in bmore and works in d.c.

Hi--I am a rising 2nd year working in NY interested in doing exclusively soft IP. Any hope for me? Can anyone shed some light on Patterson Belknap. It gets stellar rankings everywhere but on this Vault list.

In reference to my comment above, I mean soft IP LITIGATION. thanks.

81: It's a half-hour into Chevy Chase. And another ten minutes, maximum, until the Mall. You might drive like an old lady at a DMV test.

Is there anyone out there who works at a firm and likes it? Anyone??

For every firm that comes up, someone says it sucks. Firm A sucks because the associates are slaves. Firm B sucks because the partners are assholes. Firm C sucks becuase the associates are slaves working for assholes.

Is there any hope in this business? Why are we all here?

85 you are right on

i am a 1L at a top 50 school, fluent in slovak (grew up there until i was 11, etc.). is there a high demand for united states trained lawyers in bratislava? i'm starting to worry about my career prospect's in the us and would love advice on practicing law in my home country.

i am a 1L at a top 50 school, fluent in slovak (grew up there until i was 11, etc.). is there a high demand for united states trained lawyers in bratislava? i'm starting to worry about my career prospect's in the us and would love advice on practicing law in my home country.

85: I've met some content in-house people. They often report high levels of job satisfaction.

85: ignore generic whining and look for substantive information here like no-offered summers and stealth layoffs. The general associate whining is largely comprised of tools who failed to do basic due diligence on what lawyers actually do before going JD/BigLaw.

85, you're right. Everyone wants "prestige" and mocks the V50 as if it's "TTT" to make 160k starting and work on slightly less glamorous deals than a V10 firm. I have been practicing for a while (V10, not that it matters). I honestly think the smartest people are the ones that go to smaller shops in smaller cities from the outset. The quality of life is better, the salary is just fine for the market, and you probably get better experience on a day-to-day basis, even if it's not in cases that appear in the WSJ.

The fact that a bunch of law students are on here criticizing the PPP at one place versus another is just silly. Only about 30% of you are even going to last through your fifth year.

85: I don't think practicing at a big law firm is a lost cause. I think there are a few geuninely happy associates, guestimate=15% (high-end). But i think they luck out. Do exactly the work they want to do, end up working with the two great partners at the firm actually itnerested in training.... But i don't hink happiness at a big law firm is the norm, it's the exceptions. But mind you, alot of people in other fields hate their jobs too. at least we have the fat paycheck to show for it. my only advice is grind it out for a few years and go in-house. with a good in-house gig you can call your own shots once you get back to the law firm and i'm guessing have a much better quality of life.

67 - I graduated from Columbia law and had plenty of classmates (and not just the C+/B- ones) I wouldn't want anywhere near a case or client of mine with a 10 foot pole. Some of the best attorneys I know graduated from Brooklyn law or St. Johns. Firms that limit themselves to T5/10/whatever schools in order to bump their prestige among small minded law students concerned with "selectivity" rather than recruit the best people wherever they can find them, are only screwing themselves. Yes, there are practical limits to how many schools firms can recruit at - but it's not 5 or 15.

Back on topic, for a sec - a classmate of mine summered at Arent Fox and hated it. Said they broke promises to her about the type of work she'd be getting and treated her like crap.

On the other hand, she was one of those straight A students that I wouldn't want near any case or client of mine, so take it with a grain of salt.

85: it is not as bad as some make it seem, however, law firm life is a grind. We will soon see the full benefit of a slow economy hit the law firm ranks ... those around in the early 90's know that story all too well.

I like working at my firm. Perhaps not coincidentally, it's neither on this list nor based in NY.

82, I've dealt w/ folks from PBWT on several occasions, and they've always proven to be nice people and good lawyers. PB is pretty well-respected by a lot of litigators who know their business (as opposed to 1L gunners posting on ATL).

You can get a bad case of Venable in your Cravath from an unprotected Fried Frank if you are not careful.

93, I completely agree. Prestige of law school may get you in the door but I find some of the most practical (and effective) litigators to be from lower-tiered schools.

maybe the problem is that practising law sucks no matter the size of the office

84 - Why would you be going through Chevy Chase to get to DC from Baltimore?

97: The most intelligent and competent one I know attended Brooklyn. I've yet to see any, and I mean any, correlation or relation between competence and school rank.

87/88 -- I recommend reading the comments on some of these Fall Recruiting threads about Bratislava offices.. I keep hearing about offices being closed (Hunton), below market pay (Baker, above) and no-offering summers (Steptoe). I'd reconsider BraTTTislava. Maybe Warsaw, Kiev or Almaty would be better.

Regarding Manatt, it's kind of a joke to see many these other firms listed above them and speaks to the general ignorance of the people who respond to Vault surveys on "prestige." Manatt had PPP of about $1.25 m last year, about double Venable's or Arent's. Both of those firms are regularly bleeding partners to more profitable shops. And didn't Dorsey nearly fold entirely a year or two back, during the boom?

99: Because you want a good cup of coffee. Do you have a counterargument?

@ 96: Don't scratch it. Only makes it worse.

this is what mapquest has to say bout bmore to dc:

Estimated Time: 58 minutes Estimated Distance: 40.89 miles

105: that's because they're calculating the DC limits. If you want to get to the Mall from downtown Baltimore, it should take you no longer than forty minutes, and maybe an hour in rush hour.

Thanks, 95. 82 needs more attention....anyone?

I worked for Baker in two different offices and thought the people there were great. The Vault review of the firm is very accurate, i.e. the firm respects your time and gives you lots of food. The complaints about the NY pay are also accurate. The firm gets away with some salary compression in NY because there's plenty of burned-out midlevels trying to lateral to Baker.

One good thing about the firm is how much they care about what you want career-wise. They let you try out different practice groups for the first two years and even after that, if you want to switch groups they help to make that happen. When I wanted to change offices, partners in office #1 got on the phone with office #2 and got everything started so I could meet with office #2. The transition was easy, and this was also true of many other colleagues who moved offices. Practice group heads are very responsive to career concerns like when you want to work with different people or try out new projects, etc. Overall a great place to work, unless you're a NY midlevel who wants that extra 30k badly enough to work in your typical shitty biglaw environment (unfortunately, that was me).

Only people with Venable use mapquest.

Baker and Hostetler....yucks!

Baker has a good thing going in Cleveland, New York and DC. Tons of happy people in those offices. Not so sure about the others.

111, not so according to last year's Vault thread, especially with respect to Cleveland

79=bullshit!

79=bullshit!

Dorsey is 120 in MN? Why the hell wouldn't you just work at Fish & Richardson which pays 160k with NY payscale/no compression ( and with NY-sized bonuses)?

Baker has a very good office in Denver. Very happy folks there and excellent attorneys.

ATL should run a story on some of the smaller regional markets (i.e., Denver). We have a good gig here, but that does not mean we work solely on M&A deals trading cattle.

There are definitely great firms in these markets and firms to avoid and more and more law students are realizing how great it is to work in Denver.

116: I have no ties to Denver, or anywhere else out West, for that matter. How can I convince them that I want to work there?

79 is wrong.

I'd like to see a thread about what it's like to work in Bratislava. We slovaks don't get enough representation on this blog...

108 - I totally agree.

87/88, Stop the Bratislava foil. No matter how hard you try, it won't become indoctrinated in the comments of ATL like FRATSTUD.

Gosh, kids in my high school persistently repeated unfunny remarks all the time in the hopes of originating a comical vernacular, it was no big deal.

84 & 106 - You've clearly got your head up your ass, or you work for the Baltimore Chamber of Commerce (which is an oxymoron).

There is no way in hell that in rush hour traffic you can get from Balto to DC in 30 min, or even an hour -- unless your're taking the Acela

It will take you more than 30 mintues to get from 95 to Chevy Chase in the morning on the Beltway alone.

Soon to be first years take note: Live in the city where you are working (would you want to drive to Baltimore at 2 AM when you finish work every night??)

Does anyone out there work at Stroock??? does anyone uot there know anyone who works at Stroock?

122: My comments aren't exactly controversial. I don't know why you insist on rebuking them.

A. Baltimore is an affordable, attractive, and vibrant city for young professionals. Whether Baltimore residents are enjoying a fine day at the port, or hanging five at one of the city's fine sports stadiums, they're doing well.

B. Baltimore is, at most, an hour away from DC. You can slice that time in half when the roads are less congested.

117,

116 here. Breaking into the Denver market without any ties can be difficult. The firms here are becoming less Colorado-centric, but they still jealously guard their "connected" status. I think that if you can convince them that you are here to stay for the long-run and are either coming from a top school or lateraling from a good firm, it should not be a problem.

There are VERY good firms here that do very high level corporate and real estate work.

Any more insight on PBWT or exclusively practicing soft IP lit in NY?

Bratislava Boy = FRAT STUD. It is no big deal.

That BraTTTislava stuff is gold!!! Keep it up!

Bratislava to FRATSTUD!

79: which office are you referring to? I don't think Katten has given out any summer offers yet, so I think you have bad info.

79: which office are you referring to? I don't think Katten has given out any summer offers yet, so I think you have bad info.

124 - you must be using some of the herion for which Baltimore is famous.

However, I will restrict my comments solely to commuting. Driving from downtown Baltimore to downtown DC during morning rush hour will take close to 2 hours. Same in reverse for the evening commute.

While the downtown areas are only approximately 40 miles apart, DC metro area congestion is legendary. Traveling during off hours lessens the commute to about 50 minutes.

124 - you must be using some of the herion for which Baltimore is famous.

However, I will restrict my comments solely to commuting. Driving from downtown Baltimore to downtown DC during morning rush hour will take close to 2 hours. Same in reverse for the evening commute.

While the downtown areas are only approximately 40 miles apart, DC metro area congestion is legendary. Traveling during off hours lessens the commute to about 50 minutes.

"Baltimore is an affordable, attractive, and vibrant city for young professionals. Whether Baltimore residents are enjoying a fine day at the port, or hanging five at one of the city's fine sports stadiums, they're doing well."

Could you sound more contrived? I've never been to Baltimore, and for all I know it could be paradise. But you are definitely supporting 122's claim that you're from the Chamber of Commerce with comments like that.

I hate people who talk about commuting to/from Baltimore more than I hate Venable Herpes.

The problem with McGuire Woods isn't the people, it's their treatment of people. They "raised" salaries based on the Hunton scale, but only applied that scale to 1st years. 1st years were making more than some 8th years. Almost 50 Richmond associates were not making the $145k salary given to 1st years.

In order for any 2nd - 8th year associate to get the top of the scale, they had to meet 4 criteria, one of which was being voted the best in the deparment by the department head for a 3 year group. Very few associates could meet all 4 factors, so very few matched the Hunton scale.

Can someone please explain why anyone would commute from Baltimore to DC? I'm really just curious. I would think the time, gas, and general hassle would outweigh any difference in cost of living between the two cities.

79 and 129, I know for a fact (since I participated in the summer program at Katten in NY) that Katten-NY not only made offers to all of its 2L candidates, but made departmental offers to them at their exit interviews. Not sure about the Chicago office, though.

79 and 129, I know for a fact (since I participated in the summer program at Katten in NY) that Katten-NY not only made offers to all of its 2L candidates, but made departmental offers to them at their exit interviews. Not sure about the Chicago office, though.

Finnegan is actually the best IP shop around.

136, it's not that bad of a commute. I used to commute from greater Bucharest to Bratislava every day - man, was that a pain!!!

136: no one with any sense whatsoever would.

136, it's not that bad of a commute. I used to commute from greater Bucharest to Bratislava every day - man, was that a pain!!!

85, not everyone hates biglaw. The former Supreme Court clerks I've worked with get great assignments and love biglaw.

If you Arent careful, you may get Venable and your Fried Frank will smell like Fish.

144 - Nice. People really should be more careful.

I think I'd rather live in Bucharest than BalTTTimore.

finnegan does not have a NY office. Any more takers?

85, not everyone hates biglaw. The former Supreme Court clerks I've worked with get great assignments and love biglaw.

The problem with living in Baltimore is that you have to live with the Baltimorons.

Baker's Cleveland office blows.

140: True. Finnegan is highly rated, but very poor for actually giving associates meaningful work/litigation experience. People have said you don't actually learn much there.

22: I didn't say that 120k wasn't good for Minneapolis living...the point relates to equality between living in Seattle and Denver. I don't think there is 10k difference between those two cities compared to Minneapolis based on COL comparisons.
25: I didn't realize that comp was tied to the amount of debt that associates have. Does that mean the Dorsey first years in Seattle and Denver have more debt?
Tuition at the U of M is not that much lower ($24k with fees for residents/$33k with fees for non-residents)
Only 71 (from site) of 308 (from NALP) attorneys in the Minneapolis office went to the U. That seems like enough of a majority to cover your debt idea.

Crowell & Moring has a pro bono partner.
Seriously - a partner whose job is 100% pro bono - soliciting pro bono work for the firm, overseeing and assigning associate projects, etc. Does not bill one hour or bring in a single paying client. Its pretty fantastic.

75- what firm gets your nod for the "best" firm in Minneapolis?

I was born and raised in MD outside of DC and can confirm that most of B'more is a complete shithole. The inner harbor and Fells Point are the exceptions; the miles of ghetto in between them is the rule.

The End.

I know a sr. associate at Finnegan who did his first dep. as a 7th year. That sucks.

I'm not 75, but the best firm in Minneapolis is Faegre & Benson. I'd choose Robins Kaplan for litigation over Dorsey too.

153: Lots of firms have that.

135 - Is that actually true now at McGuireWoods? That doesn't sound good for anyone involved.

I work at Stroock and I love it. I truly enjoy the work and the people I work with (about to be a second year, but have already worked on a lot of substantive matters).

Additionally, at firm parties, all the people I have spoken to outside of my department have been decent and fun.

Of course I can't speak for the entire firm, as I'm sure there are people that are not so pleasant to work with, but in general, the people who stay at firms are ones that fit into the culture, and Stroock's culture is very congenial

147: do your homework. finnegan (DC) does not have a NY office because of morgan & finnegan (NY). the two finnegans are from the same family; one is the father, the other is the son.

What makes Faegre better? Dorsey partners make more money than Faegre partners and the two firms have roughly the same practices. Frankly, I think they are the same and head and shoulders above the others except possibly for Robins trial practice. Dorsey and Faegre pay 120K in Mpls because the market doesn't require them to pay more.

I worked in baker hostetler's orlando office and hated the time i spent there. The partners in the office try to sell the place as a "national firm" (their words), but they run the place like a back woods good ol' boy club.They have lost (or maybe there were stealth layoffs?) several of their associates over the past year. Law students and associates with other options should stay away from this office.

Venable's SA numbers in NALP Directory are misleading. The firm was oversubscribed and many of its 2007 DC summers were offered positions in other offices where they had no intention of working. As yeah, they were paying $145k until very recently, and bonuses are low and are not guaranteed, even for associates who make their billables. Terrible firm doing garbage work.

Classes have started, OCI is over, and still no word from Katten-Chicago. I can't believe the NY crowd walked out the door with offers in hand.

Katten no-offered multiple summers in the LA office

Crowell & Moring is a great place. They would be much higher if we were ranking by associate experience. They are still getting hurt in these "prestige" rankings because they have only been around for about 25 years or so. Nice people, good work, ok hours, same base salary as everyone else. And if you bill the same hours, they will probably give you the same bonus you would get at any sweatshop firm in town. It is Big Law, but at least they try to treat their people well.

I like the people in the IP group at Arent DC.

Crowell and Mooring never sent me any correspondence last year indicating that I hadn't gotten a callback, despite multiple attempts at communication on my part. Bush league.

Here's what current associates think of Venable.

Uppers:
1. Low billable hours. 1800 for first-years, 1900 past that. Most associates bill under 2000.
2. Low jerk factor among partners/associates.
3. Very understanding about family commitments. Flexible schedules plus low hours = lifestyle friendly.
4. Recent upward trajectory in Vault, PPP, etc.

Downers:
1. Compensation isn't transparent. Serious compression after 1st year. Salaries start at $160K and increases are merit-based and small (e.g., 165 for 2nd year, 175 for 3rd year).
2. Bonuses are discretionary and low. Most associates get nothing or a little over $5k.
3. Over 20% of the 2008 SA class was no-offered.
4. Very few students come from good (top 20) schools. Venable recruits from American, University of Baltimore, and other local MD/DC schools. Some SAs came from T2 and T3 schools.
5. Firm is not managed very well.

Amen 164. And, 170, all the "uppers" you listed are on par with a number of other firms in DC. The hour requirement particularly is no different from about 15 better firms.

The downers, however, are huge (crappy associates, ridiculous pay, poor management). Venable is simply trash. It's basically become a consensus. I am starting to think someone who works for Vault is banging a partner there because nothing else explains their upward trajectory.

159 - I think 135 may be skewing the truth. It's true that McGuireWoods does not have lockstep increases, and the firm gives raises based on "merit." Generally, the difference between classes in the big cities (LA, NY, DC) is about $5,000-7,000, which means a third year generally makes about $175k, and a fifth year makes $185-195k. My understanding is that senior level associates max out in the $220k range. Bonuses aren't great either, with most between $5-20,000 for all associates.

As far as the 50 Richmond associates making less than $160k, I can't believe that to be accurate. If it is, those associates need to get the freakin' point and leave.

In short, McGuireWoods is behind the market in salary. Flip side - no one really bills more than 2100 (except a few idiots), and the hands on experience is second to none. My buddy there tells me that associates first-chair $1M+ trials and are allowed to argue before appellate courts.

Seems like a good balance to me. MW associates are easily more experienced partners than most junior partners at AMLaw 50 firms.

169 - Maybe they didn't bother responding because you couldn't spell the firm's name.

any reason for an ohioan to choose baker over jones day or squire?

174, I doubt it (look at last year's thread). Definitely make sure to look into how strong the firms are in whichever practice areas you're interested in, though. I assume you're interested in Cleveland? Also, for what it's worth, I haven't really heard much favorable about either of the Jones Days in Ohio. Friends who have spent time at Squire seem to like it.

Re: Finnegan - I'm at Finnegan now, and I took my first depo as a first year. I defended a depo about 5 months later.

I'm learning tons - the people who say you don't learn here are full of it.

176--what type of work are you doing at finnegan? How are compensation and benefits?

The only respectable McGuire Woods office is in Richmond, but if you work there, that means you couldn't get hired at Hunton.

The only respectable McGuire Woods office is in Richmond, but if you work there, that means you couldn't get hired at Hunton.

My Finnegan experience is consistent with 176's - I did real work as a first-year. I would recommend trying for a balance of prosecution, opinion, and litigation to start - getting sucked into a giant litigation right off the bat can be limiting. Junior associates certainly do real work in prosecution and opinion work - by the end of the year, most of my drafts went to the client/to the PTO after minimal revisions from a partner or senior associate.
Regarding compensation, it's the standard 160k scale. Bonuses are not NY-style, though - productivity bonus of 5% per 100 hours over 2000, up to 2400, and then a discretionary merit bonus up to 20%.

176 = female favored by a partner?

180: Are you still with Finnegan and if so, how much more transferable experience have you gained?

Tell us more about the problems at Baker Hostetler Orlando....was the office just 'clique-y' or was there more to it than that? Was that the only aspect that sucked?

When I was worked there, there were more problems in Baker's Orlando office than the office being "clique-y.'

One big issue for me was the hours. Working a lot is par for the course in a law firm, but Baker shouldn't try to say it is different from other firms when it works you just as hard. The firm partners loved to call other firms in town like Greenberg Traurig or Holland and Knight sweatshops, but I was working just as many hours, or more, than the associates in those offices. Even the summer associates last year and in other years were working a ton of hours. I can't comment on this year since I am no longer with the firm.

Pay was another issue at Baker Orlando. The firm matched market for first years, but subsequent raises were not lock-step. This might be o.k. if raises were based on merit, but as noted above, Baker Orlando is a good ol' boy club and is 'clique-y.' Who you are friends with can influence your raise or job prospects more than your work product. I wasn't comfortable with that.

The office was also pretty cheap and the partners were very vocal about how much they disliked paying for associate salaries and things like blackberries. Please don't bitch about how much you are paying me if it is less than what associates at other comparable firms working the same kinds of hours are making. Also, please don't bitch about the cost of my blackberry and blackberry service if you are going to be using it to contact me to give me more work.

Finally, when I interviewed at Baker Orlando a big selling point was the firm did not lose associates to other firms in town. Well, in the last year and a half or so, at least 5 associates have gone to other large firms in town. Either the firm is having some kind of unusual issue that wasn't present before or they lied during recruiting.

I think these issues are typical for a lot of law firms/offices, but Baker Orlando tries to sell itself as being different from most law offices in town. It isn't much different and people should know that before turning down offers to go elsewhere.

"117,

116 here. Breaking into the Denver market without any ties can be difficult. The firms here are becoming less Colorado-centric, but they still jealously guard their "connected" status. I think that if you can convince them that you are here to stay for the long-run and are either coming from a top school or lateraling from a good firm, it should not be a problem.

There are VERY good firms here that do very high level corporate and real estate work."

Yes. And, when you've come over from a "top school" or a "good firm" you'll be rewarded by working with University of Denver Law grads for mostly no-name regional companies in a parochial legal environment. Be very careful and examine the legal market of small cities like Denver before considering moving there for the dream of skiing.

I've heard there's been a lot of movement over at Dickstein Shapiro, including some stealth layoffs. Has anyone else heard this?

185: I work there and you are absolutely correct about the stealth layoffs. BTW, they pressure the associates into giving good survey reviews, saying that "everybody else is doing it."

As far as the tupperware, we're NOT supposed to have the cleaning staff wash our personal dish supplies, but some people take advantage of those below them.

When i started, Dickstein was a nice, collegial place to work, but it's changed in the last few years as it's grown, especially since we moved to the new building in 2006. The partnership wait has now gone from about 8 years when I started to at least 10 years now. And that teaser they have about being able to move up faster than your lockstep year is total BS. They NEVER do it for anyone.

Merit bonuses are rare, and they don't even guarantee the hours bonus anymore. The minimum hours requirement is 1950, and you get no bonus at all until you reach 2100 hours. Also, if you get an hours bonus, you generally won't be considered for a merit bonus. All bonuses are below what other firms in the area pay.

Who the f*ck are these people singing the praises of Crowell & Moring? This place completely stinks.

The partners I work for wouldn't be allowed to mop the floor at a real firm. I was hanging on hoping for layoffs (& severence) but finally reached my limit and gave notice last week.

C&M tolerates partners -- even entire practice groups populated with partners -- who (1) have NEVER brought in business, and (2) don't know what they're doing when they do stumble onto a bit of work.

And the frigging rubber ducks are just annoying. Who wants to work at a "different" lawfirm full of rubber ducks? It's like getting on the short bus to school -- it's not something to brag about.

Oh, and by the way, Crowell is cutting associates' base pay based on the amount of work the partners are able to bring in for them to do. So C&M associates are *not* guaranteed a minimum base salary.

dickstein shapiro has been doing stealth layoffs, that way their layoff numbers don't show. Other law firms may admit to layoffs, but not dickstein shapiro.....it is a shit hole to work at, don't believe the hype about it being one of the best places to work at.