I have heard of exactly 2 of these firms, they obviously have not invested very much in brand creation.

3rd 4th 5th

Best time waster ever:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~pontipak/redsquare.html

Better vacuums: Bissell or Orrick?

Fenwick is best known for having summered (and ultimately (properly) no-offered) Tucker Max.

- Parentheses Man

For the love of God, could the folks at Vault please acknowledge Mesothelioma Lawyers, LLC and Black Lung Lawyers, LLC. I hate that there isn't a single Plaintiff's firm on this list. Law students at Appalachian are in the know, and Mesothelioma Lawyers, LLC and Black Lung Lawyers, LLC are V100 quality - - PERIOD!

Yawn.

Another year of V100 rankings and Fetus Placenta, LLC has failed to break through ....

Lord Lock offers all 1st year associates top of the line vacuums as bonuses.

How is Kilpatrick Stockton in the top list of anything? Outside of D.C. they are crumbling.

All you need to know about Thelen is here http://abovethelaw.com/2008/08/thelen_new_name_merger.php#comments

The firm is a good enough place - or more accurately, is populated by good enough people - to inspire serious loyalty from people already attached to it. But there's no reason why anyone should be looking to interview there this year - way too much uncertainty to be buying in now.

no one cares about these.

11 -

What can you elaborate re Kilpatrick crumbling outside of DC?

I think Squire Sanders hired a guy in a cowboy hat to do TV spots for them as well as ads on the sides of city buses in Pittsburgh and Toledo.

Kramer Levin--Great Litigation firm. Top White Collar and a terrific place to work. You actually get a life.

Anything on Seyfarth Shaw's NY office? I have a callback there.

A summary of the posts sure to come:

91. Sucks.
92. No offered too many summers.
93. Don't go there; made layoffs in '87
94. Not diverse
95. Sweatshop
96. Partners are arrogant assholes.
97. Associate was forced to cancel wedding & honeymoon to work on deal that fell through anyway.
98. About to fold.
99. Crappy pay.
100. A low-paying, about to fold, sweatshop that hates diversity, where the asshole partners layed off associates in 1807 (and no-offered summers in 1809). Oh, and they suck too.

Does Mintz Levin have an office in Gowanus?

Anything on Hughes Hubbard's NY office. I have a callback there.

Fenwick is a Cali IP/Tech firm. Big in SV. I don't know much about them, but they do have a firm owned condo in maui (or some Hawaii island) that they let associates use for free. I think it comes up on a rotating basis and when it's your turn you get two free airline tickets to go use it.

hughes hubbard = Chambers top 20 corporate/M&A department in NY as a Band 1 (Highly Regarded) - yet only 40 corporate lawyers in NY. How?

Is Chambers really more credible than Vault?

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/usa/resultseditorial.aspx?fid=4206&cid=392&pid=354&solbar=1&grouptype=1#4206

Seyfarth has the top Toxic Tort Practice in NYC. And, as the satellite of a Chicago big firm, you get both the Big Law and the Boutique Experience. The best of both worlds!

Seyfarth has the top Toxic Tort Practice in NYC. And, as the satellite of a Chicago big firm, you get both the Big Law and the Boutique Experience. The best of both worlds!

Kilpatrick's Bratislava office is a sinking ship. DO NOT interview there!!

I think somebody's Venable is flaring up again, 18. Maybe you shouldn't be so stingy on applying that topical cream. Hmmmm?

I can't believe Kramer Levin is ranked so low. Back in my days it was a super-prestigious firm. Also, as far as I can see from working with them, they consistently do some of the most top-notch work from A-list clients in the industry. Maybe they are not a T5 firm, but certainly they rank in the top 20!

Yeah, Kramer Levin is awesome. I just summered there and the firm was the best!

Hey 27,

I'm a corporate associate at KL, and i totally agree - the firm deserves more recognition at the Vault rankings. Maybe it's because KL has not done enough advertising in the past?

29,

How is the benefits practice at KL?

30 -- top notch

I have never heard or read a bad word about Kramer Levin from people who have actually worked there. It apparently attracts top notch talent, and the partners truly care about the associates.

Hi,

My name is Kramer Levin Recruiting Coordinator. I posted numbers 27-32 pretending to be different people. Isnt' Kramer Levin awesome?

-KL

33-

You are a freaking cynic. This is an honest discussion among law students and associates about a top quality firm. Please take your anger elsewhere.

31, how could I find out more about the benefits department? I've been to their website, should I just send them an email?

18's suggestion that Seyfarth is "about to fold" is asinine. A number of the firm's offices are hiring laterals at a pretty significant clip because there's so much work to go around (at least on the L&E front which accounts for about 340 of the firm's 750 attys).

34 -

Shouldn't law students not post here? Wouldn't they rather get opinions of lawyers who work at, or have had contact with, the actual firms? Or do they just want to post about what they think based on heaven knows what, thereby gaining nothing from these discussions?

33-
Is it that hard to believe that a firm like Kramer may actually exist and that people who work there actually enjoy the challenge and the people they work with?

35-
http://www.kramerlevin.com/employeebenefits/

Warning to all students considering Squire Sanders in DC:

I spent about 4 hours there on a call-back interview. Completely disorganized. Waste of time.

I know two other people who had the same experience.

over a month after the summer program ended, thelen ny made offers, with lots of "contingent upon"s, to at least some of the summers yesterday, with a start date in january 2010.

Can anyone comment on Squire Sanders' affiliate law firm in Dublin? Is it impossible for American attorneys to practice in Ireland?

I worked across from Kramer's bankruptcy practice in a case that lasted several years. Generally, the lawyers were smart and I thought they did a good job. They took strong initial positions, but eventually came around to a reasonable compromise.

Additionally, they are thought to be an up and coming firm on the creditor side of bankruptcy, so to the extent that someone is interested in that practice area, they're probably worth a look.

Lovells has a New York office that concentrates mainly on general commercial litigation. They are a very well respected British firm that has a huge presence all over the world outside the United States (about 1700 lawyers). Lovells also has a Chicago office that concentrates mainly on insurance/reinsurance commercial litigation.

4 - Absolutely brilliant.

Say what you will about Seyfarth Shaw, they do at least one thing better than, or at least as well as, anyone else--Labor & Employment.
Not to knock on any other firm, but all other things being equal, I personally prefer working in a top-flight practice area at a firm known for that practice area, than say working in an average practice area of a Vault 50 firm. But that's just my opinion.

Fenwick is a solid bay area firm. Much safer bet than Heller, Pillsbury or Thelen these days. I've worked on cases with them and their attorneys were quite competent. You could definitely do a lot worse.

Non-Fenwick mid-level associate.

I'm doing callbacks in the V10, but think that Kilpatrick seems like a pretty good place to work. How are they "crumbling"?

Seyfarth to fold?? Are you kidding me?? They have been on a hiring spree (particularly in L&E) and have been picking up quite a few high profile partner/practice group defectees.

#11 - Sorry about your OCI ding from KilStock. They're obviously not the creme de la creme - but they are what they are (ranked #91). They certainly arent crumbling. And they're a southeast firm, their DC office is irrelevant not a diamond in the rough

48--Read 18's full comments. He was joking about generalized comments people were "sure to make." He wasn't making specific allegations about any of the firms. Look at his comments about the other firms--they're obviously a joke and not firm-specific ("made layoffs in 1807"). It's okay. Everyone knows Seyfarth is not about to fold. Pillsbury, on the other hand, that place is going DOWN! (j/k).

"made layoffs in 1987" - accurate?

21 -- True, all true. Free airfare and use of a condo for a week. There are three condos (two in Maui and one in Kauai), and the views from the Kauai condo are absolutely, jaw-dropping amazing.

Fenwick mid-level associate

52, I have an OCI interview coming up for the Seattle and Mt. View offices of Fenwick. Fenwick is my number one choice, and I would especially love to work in the newly opened Seattle office. Do you have any tips?

I love Fenwick because I hope to do emerging companies/venture capital/financing/tax work.

Some Kramer Levin truths:

1. It is really a top notch firm, but only has a NY office (and a negligible Paris office). That kills it as far as Vault goes. That being said-- think about. A firm with only a NY office and it it is in the V100.

2. Although most of the partners are really great people, your QOL will be on par with any top firm. Don't fool yourself into thinking "Kramer Levin, home by seven." The firm has grown a lot in the past decade and many of the senior associates lateralled in from V20 firms, diminishing KL's QOL culture.

53 -- Here's a few tips. Know our practice areas. Have a logical reason why you would be a good match for Fenwick.

Personality is very important during our interviewing process. We don't hire gunners, yellers, or highly competitive types.

Lastly, Fenwick is an entrepreneurial firm (fitting, given our clients). Read about our free market work system. It's quite unusual and a hallmark of our culture.

18 - You must be a dinosaur if you remember lay-offs before the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the USSR. I guess the odds of anything changing in 20 years are minimal and therefore layoffs over 20 years ago are a solid reason not to work at a particular firm.

anything on Seyfarth's NY ofice?

55- Love it. Thanks. I have studied the practice groups through and through, and I think based on my interests noted above, Fenwick and I would be a great match. Good to know that the firm doesn't hire gunners and douchebags. I'm highly motivated, but not highly competitive (at least not in the douchebag way). I'm one of those "I take my work seriously but not my self too seriously "types.

Tell me more about the entrepreneurial nature. I like the idea because I have an entrepreneurial streak (one reason why I want to work in the Seattle office so bad is because I want to be a part of a growing office, and be able to get in on the ground floor and help it grow in the new market).

Re: the free market system, I have read about this on the firm website, but it doesn't really give a great description. Can you tell me more about it, and what makes it so unique from other firms that have free market systems?

What do you know about the firm's future plans for the Seattle office? I know it just opened at or around the beginning of the year, and there are only like 12 attorneys there. Do you know what led the firm to open a Seattle office? Especially after so many CA firms have come to Seattle and struggled? Based on the partners they lured over from the Orrick Seattle office, who are all big hitters in the Seattle legal community, it appears that the Seattle office will be, or is, generating business-as opposed to servicing specific clients. Am I right about that?

41 - any details on the contingencies mentioned by Thelen? They must have had to do with the hope of a merger and "future firm needs" - but would be interested to know what was said specifically. And are you sure they gave them a start date of Jan 2010? Finally, what percentage of summers were offered? Were "no-offers" communicated?

Anything on Seyfarth's NY office?

41 - any details on the contingencies mentioned by Thelen? They must have had to do with the hope of a merger and "future firm needs" - but would be interested to know what was said specifically. And are you sure they gave them a start date of Jan 2010? Finally, what percentage of summers were offered? Were "no-offers" communicated?

A firm with only a NY office in the V100? Wachtell much? Cravath has a "negligible" London office. Cahill is similar too. All three makes tons of money.

58 -- The free market system is that you are not assigned to a partner. You pick and choose the tasks you want to work on. Partners pitch work to associates, and associates are free to accept or decline. You are your own free agent. You are even free to work across practice group boundaries, if you can convince the partner with whom you want to work that you're capable. As a result, you can chart your own career path.

I don't know much about the plan for Seattle. We're moving into new, permanent offices soon, with room to grow quickly, which is the plan. Seattle's current client base is mostly biotech and medical devices. Seattle already has a strong base of local clients and is working with the SF office to cross sell to the biotech community in South SF.

Thelen will be "movin' on up" once it mergers with either Vinson & Elkins, King & Spauling, or Bryan Cave.

sorry to rain on the KL parade but it is nothing close to the underrated paradise people are making it out to be. surprisingly a lot of jerks. though the new offices are quite nice.

64: never heard Vinson and Elkins was a merger possibility; I heard it's just down to Nixon Peabody and Bryan Cave - King and Spaulding dropped out.

Nixon Peabody is not a serious contender for Thelen because of Thelen's interest in expanding it's "domestic footprint." King and Spaulding did not drop out, that's alive and well. So is Bryan Cave. Vinson and Elkins is the long shot, but it matches up with the snippets given by the partnership to associates.

63, thanks for all the info! It's nice to see helpful comments with substance on here every once in a while.

Seriously, if anyone from Nixon Peabody or Bryan Cave is reading this, what are you thinking??? There is a reason that people are running for the exists like the building is on fire. If you know what's good for you, you'll run the other way as fast as the departing partners.

As for the summer associates, I hear they no-offered over half the class and the other half got offers with more contingincies than a V5 merger agreement. Makes Stroock look like gold.

Seriously, if anyone from Nixon Peabody or Bryan Cave is reading this, what are you thinking??? There is a reason that people are running for the exists like the building is on fire. If you know what's good for you, you'll run the other way as fast as the departing partners.

As for the summer associates, I hear they no-offered over half the class and the other half got offers with more contingincies than a V5 merger agreement. Makes Stroock look like gold.

68 -- No problem. Good luck at OCI.

any advice for incoming associates set to start @ thelen in january '09?

70 - At the same token, there is a lot unsaid. People don't discuss too much the value Thelen has. Maybe it's only as an acquisition target and the acquiring firm will only cherry-pick certain offices, but there is something there, so it's unfair to tell Nixon and Bryan Cave people that they they should run the other way.

And to say it's down to Nixon and Bryan Cave only? Laughable. No way does Nixon and Thelen merge. Maybe Bryan Cave, but only because Bryan Cave needs more CA presence. In fact Bryan Cave should just acquire Thelen SF and SV (and maybe NYC) and that's it, dump the rest, but still call the new firm Bryan Cave Thelen.

There are many other firms interested too, and if Thelen was serious about being acquired and allowing other firms to cherry-pick, there would already be a deal in place.

I heard the Locke Lord merger is having a lot of problems. Mergers don't always save failing firms...

Folks, Seyfarth is doing stealth layoffs and has been all year.

The firm is trying desparately to diversify its L & E focus, but is somewhat behind the 8 ball. They are trying to compete on the salary front, but after 3rd year they employ these ridiculous "salary bands" that cause huge disparities of pay within the same class (up to $40,000 in some cases).

They made promises in March regarding 2008 pay raises and bonuses for the preceding year. However, a few weeks later, many quality people were suprised when they received a smaller bonus and raises than they were advised.

Seyfarth depends heavily on L & E, particulary wage and hour class actions in California. The single plaintiff employment case is very cost-inefficient. If the wage and hour work goes away, they are f*. As a future merger partner they suck because of the heavy L & E focus.

Oh and as reported on another thread, they are employing Indian attorneys to do first drafts of summary judgment motions.

As my dreary Seyfarth friends have advised me, f* Seyfarth.

Lots of no-offers by Locke in past several years. Beware.

73-

What value does Thelen have? Their lawyers all SUCK, except for the construction practice group, which has a billing rate too low to be interesting to a big firm, and should really be a standalone firm.

Oh, you'll probably talk about the supposedly "top notch" IP litigators that Thelen has, given your reference to their Silicon Valley office.

Those "top notch" IP people are top notch only in the belts of opposing counsel who have mopped the floor with them repeatedly. I've had the misfortune of cross-staffing cases with them, and they are the biggest bunch of inept clowns I've ever seen.

And all those people who say Kirkland Thelen... in your dreams. Here's an example, reprinted on Kirkland's own website, about how much Thelen's IP lawyers suck:

http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm?contentID=230&itemId=7065

Same case, including the same opponent, tried just a few months apart. Kirkland wins big. Thelen loses.

Post-script: Thelen lost several additional trials related to that suit as well. Kirkland's client is home-free and sitting pretty.

Thelen is terrible, and I can't wait to watch it go down the toilet; I have a number of people on my "layoff watch" list that would sorely deserve pink slips, unlike a lot of the decent summer associates and first years getting no-offered these days.

77 = Obvious ex-Thelen associate fired by Thelen.

Thelen is a mess. Assets remain in San Jose and DC, but NY and LA are a total and complete wasteland. The merger with Brown Raysman was a disaster, and departures have been occuring with regularity since the Elkin group left in Jan 07. There is no chance the firm will survive in its current form.

Thelen is a mess. Assets remain in San Jose and DC, but NY and LA are a total and complete wasteland. The merger with Brown Raysman was a disaster, and departures have been occuring with regularity since the Elkin group left in Jan 07. There is no chance the firm will survive in its current form.

20 - I summered at Hughes Hubbard this past summer - great place to work, the people were great, and unlike some other places, they purposefully took a small enough class so they could offer everyone (about 20 people).

80 is on the money. The NY office is total dead weight. It's a miracle the lights are still on.

78: 77 here.

Not ex-Thelen. I don't suck.

Like I said, I'm one of the people who's unfortunately saddled with Thelen's TTT lawyers through no fault of my own. Terrible, terrible lawyers. I'm wondering why Hynix doesn't fire them entirely in favor of O'Melveny, who they brought on as co-counsel once Nissly and his band of merry morons lost the Rambus case.

78 - the fact that there are ex-Thelen associates angry enough to post on ATL is enough of a reason for me to ding a firm.

84 - An angry ex-associate posting on ATL can be said about every firm, so you might as well ding them all!

77 - Clearly you have issues. The fact that you are waiting to see people get fired really says a lot about your character. If you were so confident about your ability to be a great lawyer you would careless about what other people do and just be happy with your own accomplishments. Unfortunately, however, you clearly are not great at what you do, so instead you have to wish that other people do not succeed just to validate your own pathetic self worth. That's sad.

77, 83: "Band of merry morons." OBVIOUSLY you have some personal issue with Thelen. You can keep denying it, but we all know you were shit-channed from there so you feel the need to badmouth. Keep on doing it. It keeps making you look so much better each time....jackass.

77,83: one last time.

If it isn't clear, I DO have issues with Thelen. I was (fortunately that's past tense) stuck on the same side of a case with them, and their incompetence was a daily frustration, as it harmed not only their own client, but ours as well.

There's something bad about having junior associates at a firm doing better work than the Thelen partners supposedly on "our" side. That says a lot.

And for the last time, we know you are full of shit and that you were really fired by Thelen (which means you must really be a shitty lawyer based on your ridiculous comments) and that you are trying to get back at them. Enjoy your new life in MIDLAW, moron.

88 - You are crazy if you actually believe that as a junior associate you were "doing better work" then partners (from any firm). As someone who worked on the same case you appear to be talking about, I can promise you that no junior associate did any actual good work. Unless of course, you enjoy sitting in the BACK of a courtroom taking notes all day.

90: 77 aka 83 aka 88 aka bitter fired Thelen associate now in MIDLAW probably couldn't even sit in the back of the ctroom and take good notes (easy billables except for MIDLAW scum), and hence got canned and now has plenty of time to bash Thelen on ATL.

Why don't we talk about a more important issue, like will the incoming associates have their offers rescinded in a month?

92, are you an incoming associate?

No. But I do know someone that was planning on going there, so I follow the story. From what I hear, the firm hasn't told any incoming associates anything bad, but there is a fear of a phone call on Jan. 4. But you have to wonder if there is any work for them in any of the offices. The firm should be honest and just rescind offers if that is the plan.

92/94, do you think there is a plan to rescind offers? That seems like an extreme measure for the firm to take after already delaying things 4 months and thus cutting costs. Of course, anything could happen.

What is your friend's outlook on things?

94 and 95, I have on good authority that all offers will be rescinded.

My friend seems to be taking things in stride since it's an uncontrollable situation. But from what I hear the firm is in a lot of trouble. It may not make sense to bring on any associates. Firm line, of course, is that all offers will be honored, but who can believe that at this point.

97: Right. Is your friend just trying to stick it out and see what happens? Or is he/she looking around at all

96: detalis please, if you aren't just trying to freak people out

There are a couple of problems with looking. First, there really aren't any jobs out there now in firms. Second, word could get back to Thelen and assuming offers aren't rescinded across the board, bump a name down the list.

The firm really should just send out letters or make phone calls if that is what the plan is. At least give everyone the peace of mind of knowing they no longer have a job.

99, that makes sense. Probably just have to wait it out.

Ive heard that current associates were told at a meeting that the offers would be rescinded. Maybe ATL should give them a call and see what's really going on. If they are going to rescind, it should be done sooner rather than later, especially since Thelen is not giving them any kind of stipend in the mean time. To make them wait for nothing is just cruel.

101, do you think that sounds kind of strange that they would announce it to all associates before doing it? That would just be asking for word to spread to gossip sites, and to the incoming associates, etc., before they actually informed incoming associates themselves.

Lots of things sound strange, like a firm merging and then about 1.5 years later all 3 name partners from one of the predecessor firms leaving, like partners fleeing for the exits and management claiming that there are active merger negotiations taking place, like associates sitting around with absolutely no work to do but being told that things are being fixed. Lots of things are strange, but that doesn't make them any less true.

103, I understand your point. I just don't understand the advantage to a firm from a PR / management standpoint in telling all the associates first and letting rumors circulate. But who knows I guess.

I dont think anyone would nominate Thelen for a PR or management of the year award...

yea. i think if management had told associates that they are rescinding all the incoming asscoiates' offers, more concrete news of that would have leaked to ATL

I am a current Thelen associate. There was no such "meeting," and associates have been told no such thing. In fact, management has said nothing to the associates about the state of the firm since the e-mail about the firm looking for merger partners. Whatever source you may have, 101, is full of crap.

107, what is your outlook on whether offers will end up being honored, and whether incoming associates will actually be able to work at the firm for any reasonable period of time?

I don't know about Seyfarth's NYC office, but I do know about the DC office. DC office is great. Firm holds regularly associate meetings to keep associates apprised of what's going on in the firm. Firm invites questions about the firm and appears to answer associates honestly. Firm also seeks associate feedback on a regular basis. I've been impressed with how the firm treats the staff as well. (It's always a bad sign if the staff are treated poorly.) For example, firm has a staff appreciation week in which staff get special recognized each day of the week (e.g., catered breakfast one day; gifts another day; etc.). Firm is laidback; hours are reasonable; and people are pleasant. Contrary to earlier post, firm is not about to go under. DC office is actually hiring in several practice groups.

I just got a Kramer Levin offer...but also have a few offers from V20 firms...my oci interviewer lateraled from a V20 firm and reported being home by 7pm, and a first year reported rarely working more than 9-10 hrs a day...has anyone heard anything else about it? I am kinda in love w/the firm, but don't want to ruin my career by not starting in the right place...

I spent 3 years at Kramer before lateriling to another bigger and "more prestigious" V20 NY firm to do something that is more specialized. Whoever ranks for Vault is an idiot- Kramer is outstanding.

Locke Lord Merger is going great so far as I can tell. Mergers are always a challenge, but they seem to be doing well. Summer offers were plentiful for one thing.

110 - i posted comment 65 and can tell you that what you have been told about KL's hours is a total fabrication. somehow, this myth of KL as a "lifestyle firm" endures and draws desperate laterals from bigger firms every year. it is a fine, respected firm with some truly good people but do not fool yourself into thinking that your lifestyle will be significantly better than at a bigger or more prestigious firm.

112 is wrong and is probably a fake post from management. The Chicago office of Locke Lord is imploding. The associates who are there do not have work (even though there are roughly two partners for every associate in the Chicago office) and the Chicago office could not afford to give offers to an already small summer associate class. They therefore instituted a plan at the end of the summer to ignore the summer associates and wait as long as possible before giving offers hoping that most summers would not accept rather than admit the grave financial condition of the Chicago office. They also no-offered several qualified candidates. The Texas offices are doing okay financially but Chicago is creating a drain on the entire firm.