first?

first

super TTT

First

Do all you First Faggots lack jobs or something?

While I do not think it's a bad move to reduce the number of summer associate offers made in order to preserve full time associate positions, I think the way in which many of these firms are handling IS a bad move. So they got it wrong when determining how many summers they might need for 2009. Um, HELLO, their hiring is done about TWO YEARS in advance so of course there's a large possible margin of error there. And perhaps they had far more acceptances than they initially anticipated. However, these firms probably knew this at the BEGINNING of the summer. Yet, they falsely assured these summer associates that the offers were essentially theirs to lose. Just act with more transparency, let folks know you overestimated, and inform the summers accordingly so they can be on their game during the summer and have a fighting chance at securing an offer at the end of the summer.

People rail against summers for being offended that they get rejected from their summer program after as if they are entitled to a job offer.

However, MOST of these firms create the atmosphere that everyone is guaranteed an offer, but then unexpectedly slams summers at the end who received fantastic reviews. If Stroock was upfront with its summers about what they needed to do, then this post is foolish. Otherwise, they're TTT.

sorry about your tiny pink no-offer, bro.

"took umbrage matter." Is that a matter that you only get to work on as a contract attorney?

Posts 6 and 7 made my day.

Agree with 10. And where is HYS, and why is HYS sending students to be summer associates? Is this the kind of proofreading you learned while all of you were a year ahead of the guy who is going on Survivor? Deplorable.

What is Strook? The majority of the readers of this blog have surely never even heard of this ultra-TTT firm.

Conclusion: Big Who cares?

Conclusion #2: Why is a HLS student summering at Strook?

Stroock: 100% more ampersands than all other law firms. Fact.

12 - HYS = Harvard, Yale, Stanford

Why exactly should your resume have anything to do with receiving an offer? Who cares that they're from HYS? I've worked with plenty of Harvard and Yale types (the Stanford students seem to do well) who thought they were too good to work hard and do what was necessary to get an offer. Where you go to school can play into whether you get an OCI interview or an offer to be a summer associate, but after that, your work should be the only thing that counts.

"They're dealing with lawyers after all. This is a group of people that can follow rules."

No, they are not lawyers.

"took umbrage manner" ???

Don't try too hard, Elie. You might break your brain.

ATL to WTF!

"[S]tudents from HYS and other T14 schools were no offered."

*GASP!*

"As countless commenters have pointed out, the key is communication. If firms find themselves in situations where 10% - 20% of their summers will not receive offers, then it is only fair that they tell summers what they need to do in order to secure an offer at the start of the summer."

This would be to little effect: if firms are going to cut the bottom 10% or 20%, what use will it be to tell the summers at the start of the session, when they have already committed themselves to the firm, that the bottom 10% or 20% of them will be no-offered. It would be much more useful to so inform prospective summers, before they have accepted their offers to summer at the firm.

On a different point, does it make logical sense for so many firms to say that their class is "oversubscribed"? The pool from which V100 summers are drawn each year is pretty much a fixed number. How,then, could so many firms be "oversubscribed"?

I find the idea that a summer needs a transparent set of rules in order to perform at his best comical.

If you are a summer at a firm in NYC in the current market, you shouldn't take anything for granted and make damn sure to impress the partners that you've been assigned to.

If you need someone to hold your hand through this, then you absolutely lack common sense and intuitive/observational skills necessary to become a good attorney.

Not everything in life is about how good you are at spotting issues in a law school exam.

Elie, you gotta edit your shit better (take that umbrage and run with it), but this is actually decent - definitely a major improvement over yesterday's Harvard clown post, which, admittedly, was the worst thing posted on the internet since 2girls1cup.

Telling them at the start of the summer just turns the whole thing into a shark tank. Which it probably was already, but an announcement makes it official. Then again, at least it does help them know that they're NOT paranoid.

What a terrible year.

Must Elie make reference to HLS/YHS in *all* his posts?

CULS grads take umbrage!

Agree w/ 19. The hiring partner should be reported to the disciplinary board for such despicable actions. Who does he think he is, no-offering T14 students? Those kids have never been treated so shoddily in all their lives. Deplorable behavior by Stroooooock.

the no-offers at stroock were not random. they were based on the summers who strooocked out at stroock bowl and otherwise were mean to the stroock mascot, the penguin.

20 - I think you don't get it. You can't tell prospective summers that the bottom 10-20% will be no-offered: the firm probably doesn't know because that's about 10 months in advance of when that same class of SAs would get offers. I'm not sure many firms go in thinking that they'll take X number, and aim to no offer 10-20% of them. I think they try to make their best guesses as between the number of offers they extend vs. the number that are accepted -- but they don't have too much visibility into their "oversubscription" until (i) the dust settles in early December and 2L's have accepted or declined offers and (ii) the actual summer occurs and the firm's needs are assessed on a more real-time (yet still 12 months out!) basis.

You cut summer associates because you don't like them (very easy to do - some kids just can't figure out what they're supposed to do) or because you like them but you know you won't be able to use them.

It's kinder to tell SAs that they won't get offers, so they can be on their best behavior. HOWEVER, I say that you DON'T tell them, and you keep the ones that are good enough and smart enough to know that they should still be diligent, respectful and attentive because it is a job interview.

Many firms could be oversubscribed because they will take more callbacks and extend more offers in a given year than in others. If all firms are doing this, more people from the T100 law schools get summer jobs. Not all law students can get bigfirm summer associate positions as 2L's -- and the market really determines what the lower half of classes and students outside of the T20 can hope to get.

I agree with 22 -- the typos are a little too frequent, but this post was much better than many of Elie's earlier posts (with which I took umbrage -- coughclowncough). Elie, my main concern with your writing so far has been that you've tended to jump right into the substantive thick of whatever you're posting about, with too little effort made to "situate the reader." (There was no such problem with this post; I just figured I'd give some general feedback.) And a random question -- are more associates buying and wearing shirts and ties this year? Can we get a post -- perhaps even a guest post -- on this?

Who cares about all these TTT firms? There is some PI attorney in NYC who just laid off the intake clerk that he regularly sends down the the hospital to fish for clients. Is that news?

HTH.

OMG! *gasp*! Students from HYS were no-offered!?!?!? How DARE these firms attempt to dent HYS's iron-clad sense of entitlement.

I was once no-offered over voicemail. Not by Stroock, though.

I remember wearing Umbrages when I had my first kiss in middle school.

thank god i stroock out with this firm when i interviewed with them several years ago. they did give me a squishy penguin, though.

Guys at my high school used to be no-offered by TTTs all the time, 'twas no big deal.

HTH.

-THE ONE AND ONLY FRAT STUD.

No offering is fine as long as these firms don't tell everyone they're guaranteed to get an offer.

hahahah....we used to make fun of Stroock in the Bratislava office of my firm. "Stroock" is slovak for "dung heap."

26 FTW.

13, you're obviously God's gift to the law, which I guess explains why you can't even be bothered to spell the name of the firm correctly. I had no idea that this blog was only for people who care about what's going on at Wachtell and Davis Polk. Thanks for enlightening us, you first class douchebag.

Without knowing the individual circumstances regarding each of the SA's who did not receive offers, this post simply misses the mark. The SA's knew that it was a large class going in and, OMG THE HORROR, they might actually have to work to get an offer instead of demonstrating their knowledge of the Omakase selections at Nobu. Those that worked hard received offers. The sense of entitlement of some people is simply stunning.

I think the real mystery is why HYS kids were summering at Stroock to begin with.

It sounds like it's going to be stressful for the (increasing number of) no-offered candidates to hunt for jobs as 3Ls. Kudos to ATL for at least getting it out there that you needn't necessarily have peed on and/or set a partner on fire to have been no-offered. How the hell do you (fairly) discern how good a lawyer someone is going to be by plying them with lunches and giving them piles of make-work to do? Maybe it will take time to adjust, but ultimately, perhaps firms looking at no-offered 3Ls will be a little more open minded when assessing these candidates.

32 - awesome!

To all of you TTT people. . . get over yourself. The kids who go to the lower ranked firms make the same salary as you, have a better shot at making partner, and can lateral to a better firm if they want. You bash the summers and lawstudents for their sense of entitlement, yet you are the ones with the most pompous, douchebag sense of entitlement on this board. Get over yourself. You'r currently sitting in your elastic waiste pants, getting fat, doing boring ass doc review for 90 hours a week. Oooohhh, yeah you working at a highly ranked sweat shop where no one there gives a shit or even knows your name. Get over yourself. You were probably that cunt rag at lawschool who wore the firm gifted scarf with the firm name on it to class. Go eat a dick.

Stroock defended Tucker Max!!! What a fun job!

20:

Keep in mind that law schools have been getting bigger and bigger. HLS is practically a JD mill now. Have you seen the size of their classes?

41 = Bitter TTT Law Grad.

41 = bitter, party of one.

What the firms REALLY need to do is not to tell them at the beginning of the summer "look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't be here at the end of the summer" but in the fall, once they've hit the number of acceptances they were aiming for early in the season, to call people with outstanding offers and not withdraw the offer but tell them that the class is oversubscribed and let them make their own conclusions. And when in September you're already running way ahead of offers than you were the year before, you dial back your offer rate!

44, you just freaked me out maaan...

- 45

41: Maybe you can invent a time machince and go attend a T14 lawschool instead of that TTT undergrad and even worse TTT law school.

Oh wait, that's impossible.

HTH.

41 = doesn't give a shit. And I know it's chock full of typos. . . I'm typing with one hand while jerking off.

And no, I went to Yale and am embarrassed by the sense of entitlement of lawyers.

38 - I don't think it's fair to assume those who didn't receive offers didn't work hard. I know nothing about this firm or its summer associates, but I do know that positive reviews and hard work didn't mean much at my firm. At the end of the day, it's an arbitrary decision by the hiring committee. Maybe one or two of the summers legit didn't deserve one, but I think assuming that they all didn't is just wrong. Moral of the story is that most firms simply aren't doing well, and this year's summer classes had to suffer the consequences.

any law school that has more than 620 students total is a JD mill and TTT.

HYS guys are summering at stroock because they are the bottom feeders of the class, a C- student from Harvard is probably little more than a functional retard. I rather have a kid in the 10% of his non-t14 school any day.

why were HYS types at Strooooock?

Not everyone wants to be at the best firm full of asswipes. Some HYS kids go to boutiques and lifestyle firms. Heck, many go into public interest too.

Just because you're a gunner doesn't mean everyone else who went to those schools are as well.

50 -- How are you so sure that 38 was "assuming" anything? As you admit, you "know nothing about this firm or its summer associates."

Then shut up.

54 - "Without knowing the individual circumstances regarding each of the SA's who did not receive offers..." That's how I know.

Thanks.

Uggghhhh. You all suck, and not in a good way.

Get back to doc review!

Whats a Tucker Maxx? Is it an engine additive?

I love working with dem retards. There's this one named Mongo, we used to chain him up.

53 = Stroock SA from YHS

I love the hate that "HYS" and the "T14" students get on here. Not all of these people everyone went to Choate and believe they are entitled to job offers and partnership because they go to a good law school. Most have just worked their ass of for years.

Since many incoming lawstudents read this post, I would like to give you some advice.

1. The firm will tell you the offer is yours to lose. Don't trust the firm. However, don't be a competitive asshole summer either. Do your work. Treat it as a competition with your other summers, but a silent competition. Don't make it known you think it's a competition.

2. Don't be a drunk asshole or do anything awful. This is pretty self explanatory, yet every summer at every firm someone does something incredibly stupid. Even though the firm treats it as summer camp, it's still an interview.

3. Be nice to everyone. Most firms give you a secretary for the summer. There's really no point in this. Other than helping you mail crapt, copy crapt, etc. don't really bother them. Just be really nice to them. They are often secretaries to people with real work. (No I'm not a secretary). You know you are not that busy. Also, the secretaries know more about what's going on in the firm than most lawyers. They can give you all the dirt if you befriend them.

4. Ask questions. Don't act like you know what is going on. You don't. If some partner or associate is giving you some BS assignment and describing something incredibly stupid to you that you think you know, just shut up and listen. Don't do the dismissive "yeah I get it" thing. You don't get it. You know nothing, and we know that. We're just trying to help you. Dismissing me as if you know what you're doing pisses me off. I'm just trying to help.

5. Proofread! I don't care how dumb the assignment is. It is dumb, you are a summer. You don't get real work. However, proofreading is the necessity still. This tells me if you put effort into all that you do. This will matter because for the next 3 years most of your work will be proofreading, looking for errors, going through doc review, etc. Attention to detail is a necessity. This shows through proofreading.

Hope these help! I remember being a summer, and it's nerve racking sometimes. However, it's not that hard.

And, hand stuff in on time. It's better to skip a lunch and hand in an assignment on time than to go to a three hour lunch and hand it in late. I don't care who the lunch was with. When you are reviewed you are reviewed mostly on your work ethic and performance, not on how many people you told a witty story to at lunch. That really doesn't matter. Go to a few, say 2 a week. The offers for lunch come often. To go everyday isn't the best option for you. And don't be the summer who spends their whole time scheduling lunches. It just shows you are a pretentious pompous ass.

I went to the bar last night and despite several favorable interviews, was no-offered all around.

62 - that made no sense.

62, I meant 63. Sorry.

Signed #64

27 - of course the firm can create false expectations for summer associates and then no-offer 20% of them, but it's obviously not a smart move since recruiting never ends and reputations are hard to shake.

43- HLS has been that size for quite some time. Are you retarded?

61 is right. In this economy there is no longer the "offer is yours to lose" expectation. The firms have to keep this mentality for OCI and NALP considerations, but they no longer mean it. Anyone with any sense would look at the postponed start dates at many firms and the Cadwalader massacre and realize this.

And although there may be some question as to why 20% of a class was no-offered, keep in mind that 80% were offered. That means the no-offered summers were in the bottom 20% of the summer class. You were the underperformers plain and simple. 80% of your classmates outperformed you. This is the reality of the situation.

61 is right. In this economy there is no longer the "offer is yours to lose" expectation. The firms have to keep this mentality for OCI and NALP considerations, but they no longer mean it. Anyone with any sense would look at the postponed start dates at many firms and the Cadwalader massacre and realize this.

And although there may be some question as to why 20% of a class was no-offered, keep in mind that 80% were offered. That means the no-offered summers were in the bottom 20% of the summer class. You were the underperformers plain and simple. 80% of your classmates outperformed you. This is the reality of the situation.

61 is right. In this economy there is no longer the "offer is yours to lose" expectation. The firms have to keep this mentality for OCI and NALP considerations, but they no longer mean it. Anyone with any sense would look at the postponed start dates at many firms and the Cadwalader massacre and realize this.

And although there may be some question as to why 20% of a class was no-offered, keep in mind that 80% were offered. That means the no-offered summers were in the bottom 20% of the summer class. You were the underperformers plain and simple. 80% of your classmates outperformed you. This is the reality of the situation.

68 here. Sorry for the triple post. No clue what happened

68 here. Sorry for the triple post. No clue what happened

This is why only GULCers like the Stroook.

61 - good, thoughtful advice.

I endeavored to follow that advice during my 2L summer. This was, not coincidentally, during the last economic downturn. I, who have a good but not incredible academic CV (Ivy League undergrad to T14 law school with honors at both), decided to focus on a lifestyle firm with interesting work . In so deciding, I elected to go to a firm that, while still in the Vault top 30, was not nearly the top firm that accepted me. I went there, worked hard, participated in no scandals or faux pas and got generally raving reviews. I got one bad review for a memo that I wrote (by a non-power partner). By way of balance, I also carried a partner to the hospital when he broke his leg during a law firm outing. I was told by both my mentor and the outgoing interviewers that I was definitely getting an offer. After I was back at school, I waited for weeks for the formal offer.

After OCI, I was no-offered via voice-mail. This, obviously screwed my chances to reveive another law firm offer. They were also not helpful in explaining my situation to any other firms. (When asked, they would simply say that I was non-offfered due to poor performance.) Approximately 20% of the class met similar fates. I learned later that they had lost a large book of work from Eli Lilly during the summer.

Fortunately for me, I had done very well in law school and had very strong relationships with the prominent faculty. Ont he strength of that performance and those relationships, I got a circuit clerkship at around the same time that it became clear that I was screwed out of big firm work for the forseeable future.

I impressed the judge enough that I went straight into AUSA work after my clerkship. I still work in that job (I"ve actually worked in two of the major cities) and I realize that I have been very lucky. The thing I remember from that time is how profoundly upsetting and unfair the no-offer really is. To all of those posturing that it only happens to dumb-asses, I suspect that you know in your secret hearts that you didn't work that hard, you aren't that overwhelmingly smart and that you were only a hair's breadth away from the same fate.

I am very sorry for you maligned Stroocklings. A shitty thing just happened to you. Work hard and unrelated good things will greet you in the future.

74, that's good advice. I know a few kids who didn't get offers or didn't have the grades to get a biglaw summer associateship. Those who now work in biglaw were smart and applied for clerkships. If you were no-offered or trying the 3L interview bracket because you couldn't secure a summer associateship, really think about clerking. You will look much more impressive in a year and have a better shot a getting a good job. Don't despair. It's one year at a lower salary. It's a better option than taking a $55K job at a small law firm.

To 68, I take issue with the idea that the people no-offered were necessarily the underperformers in the bottom 20% of the class. I was just no-offered (from another firm) and told that my work was fine. I don't remember the exact reason (I was in a bit of shock on the phone) but it had something to do with "fit." I got the vibe the hiring partner wasn't being honest with me.

All of my performance reviews were excellent. I had no "run-ins" with partners or associates and got along swimmingly with everyone. I have no idea how many of my colleagues were no-offered as well, but I don't know on what scale you could say I was an "underperformer."

To 68, I take issue with the idea that the people no-offered were necessarily the underperformers in the bottom 20% of the class. I was just no-offered (from another firm) and told that my work was fine. I don't remember the exact reason (I was in a bit of shock on the phone) but it had something to do with "fit." I got the vibe the hiring partner wasn't being honest with me.

All of my performance reviews were excellent. I had no "run-ins" with partners or associates and got along swimmingly with everyone. I have no idea how many of my colleagues were no-offered as well, but I don't know on what scale you could say I was an "underperformer."

76,

Fit is an acceptable reason, which I admit I should have mentioned. My comment may have come off as misguided. However, my point was that on a total scale of who would work out for them and who wouldn't, there were others above you. So as your work product may have been stellar, personality is a consideration. With that in mind, you should look to see if you come off as abrasive or dismissive, even if you don't think so. The point is, those who were offered were higher on the grand scale of "who we want to work here" than you.

I'm not trying to sound like an asshole. keep your chin up. If there was a fit issue, you probably wouldn't have been happy working there anyways. Someimes, these road bumps may be a blessing in disguise.

68.

As someone who knows, not all the information reported is true...and many - but not all - of the people no-offered deserved to be no-offered

I find this Stroock post pretty interesting. I graduated from an obscure college and from a Tier 3 law school, both with latin honors. I didn't summer at a big NYC law firm because I didn't have the grades at that time, so I worked at a very small boutique. But I was dead set on getting a BigLaw job so I did a huge mass mailing. Stroock took the bait , and to make a long story short, I received an offer, which I turned down to go to another firm. When I asked the Stroock people why they were looking to hire 3L's, I was told it was because they anticipated that some of their offerees would decide to work elsewhere, such as clerkships, etc. SO, this leads me to believe that some Summers didn't receive offers because their work was crap and not because Stroock 's biz was hurting. I'm thinking that if biz was bad and the no-offers were unrelated to individual performance, they would at least give offers to the Summers they decided to no-offer rather than interviewing me, some stranger off the street. Just my two cents.

Back before the heydays of the first year raises, after the internet bubble when firms were no-offering people, I know a couple people who were no-offered. One wound up doing a clerkship instead, and is now at a V20 firm. She certainly isn't considered an "underperformer." Firms have to make decisions based on their economics, and because they all insist on large summer classes, when the economy takes a turn they have to no-offer people. It just stinks when they lie to you and future employers about it.

I'm curious, are any associates seeing more 3Ls interviewing for first year positions than normal?

53 = Stroock SA from YHS

Crowell & Moring is hiring contract attorneys "with document review experience" for a project.

If you have work, hire attorneys, not temps.

DONNIE - SHUT THE FUCK UP!

IS THIS WHOLE COUNTRY GOING MAD - DOESN'T ANYONE GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES!

Their gonna kill that poor woman...

God damn you Walter! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?

81, how do you know she wasn't an underperformer. The fact of the matter is many bright law students do not make good lawyers. They spend too much time thinking about non-issues or spend too much time on things.

Although I agree there are some summers who are no-offered because of economic reasons, the fact remains that other summers were given jobs. Therefore, those other summers did a better job or were a better fit for the firm. Economics always play into firm hiring, through good or bad times. For summers to assume the offer is theirs and then perform that way is just silly and stupid. No matter what, some get jobs and if you didn't that means something about your performance wasn't up to par with your fellow classmates. Plain and simple.

74 here.

I agree with 75 in suggesting that government work is vastly superior to merely trying to scrape out the top interested remaining law firm.

From a 3L perspecitve (who has an offer and isn't interviewing but knows many students who are) 3L OCI interviewing is majorly down at many law schools. I would assume it is lower.

80: That conclusion does not follow. When a firm no-offers a sizeable hunk of summers, they often end losing a big chunk of the summers that they DID extend offers to as well. Those people are upset that their friends just got burned, worried about the econ health of the firm, and just generally end up w/ bad tastes in their mouth.

And for some reason when firms end up cutting a big hunk of people, they seem hellbent determined to blame it on the summers, not on their own wellfare. So they make a big show of interviewing 3ls: "look how WELL we're doing over here! we're interviewing 3ls don't you know! look, we'll even toss out a few offers!" of course, since what happened is so well publicized, they know that they're going to get a pretty negligible return on those few offers that they do give out.

"Apparently some were no offered over the phone."

Okay, how do you WANT them to no-offer people? If they sent out an e-mail, you know you and everybody else would jump on them, saying, "Man, that's stone cold." If they sent a snail mail letter, that'd be even worse - just as impersonal as e-mail, but taking DAYS to arrive! Harsh!

Look, getting no-offered is going to suck no matter what. IMO, phoning somebody up is the LEAST impersonal way to do it, since whoever's doing the calling has to feel pretty awkward about it. (Either that or they get the most robotic hiring committee associate to make the no-offer calls.) What do you expect, if not a phone call? A singing telegram?

If you were no offered, you did poorly. You need to come to that conclusion so you can improve. To sit and contemplate economics or blame the firm will get you nowhere. Face it. You weren't liked. That's an issue for you not for them. The firm doesn't give a shit.

Also, the comments about hurting recruiting efforts are dumb. With the economic downturn and so many law students, the firms will have enough people wanting to work for them that they don't care. So what if they don't have as many HYS grads applying? The top 30 schools will more than suffice and fill their needs. In three years when it may matter again, the numbers from this years hiring will be long forgotten. Law students only look at the previous years offer rate on NALP. They aren't doing research on the firm from 3 years ago.

88 you are dead wrong. With the no offers coming out of so many firms now and 3L interviewing down, kids are far more likely to accept their offers if they get one. They don't give a shit about their fellow summers. They just want a 160K salary and BarBri paid for.

91 is right. I don't give a damn about the no-offered summers. I also am not that worried about the current economics of the firm. I wont start there for a year. By then the firms economics could completely turn. Heck, if not, I'll worry about lateralling after 2-3 years. But I'm not going to chance it on this economies 3L interviewing season. It blows, every 3L in the nation knows this.

All told, no-offering in the legal profession is pretty low class.

For those that go on and on harping about how all businesses have the right to no-offer at will, consider that the stigma of a no-offer in the legal profession is so great precisely because of the 95-100% offer expectations that everyone knows to exist in the field. To no-offer a SA in the legal profession is to give that person a pretty harsh condemnation because others will, rightly or wrongly, view that SA very poorly.

Contrast that with investment banking analysts (not summers). After two years, most of them don't get promoted to associate and so, are forced to leave their companies. But because everyone knows this and understands that those fired analysts are the norm (just not superstars), those analysts usually have little trouble finding another good job.

93, the offer rates are no longer in the 95-100 rank. Besides, the spin on the economy is being utilized.

With that in mind, realize that only around 10% of lawyers work in biglaw. The other 90% don't. It's not that big of a stigma. It just means you aren't in the top 10% of lawyers. Deal with it. You all aren't special or deserve gold stars.

I agree with 84. Walter is an asshole and what does Vietnam have to do with anything?

I agree with 90 about the recruiting rates. Right now, it should be the last thing on a recruiting committees mind if the firm is in financial trouble. Worrying about getting law students in a few years is stupid. Worry about the firms survival at the moment. Deal with those issues when they arise. It's better to no offer some summers than to have to lay off 100 lawyers like Cadwalader. So what if they offered their entire summer class, they accepted a bunch of kids who know nothing about law to save recruiting yet fired dedicated employees. I know which one would bother me more.

94 - Someone sure is drinking the Kool-Aid at the office. It will be more expected next summer after the events of this summer, but it doesn't change the fact that the no-offers of this summer are screwed. However, the biggest problem is that firms often don't give any indication that a no-offer is coming and will sometimes give false hope (e.g. "offer is yours to lose".)

Yeah, I know life can be unfair. I hope Strook and others get theirs in 2L recruiting this year when they get only those students who couldn't get offers elsewhere.

97,

"However, the biggest problem is that firms often don't give any indication that a no-offer is coming and will sometimes give false hope (e.g. "offer is yours to lose".)"

I agree this is a huge issue. However, law students are supposed to be bright. They should've realize coming into this summer that the economy is shit and maybe this isn't as true as it was 2 years ago.

in other stroock news . . . i'm surprised this didn't show up in lawyerly lairs . . .

http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/luxe-gets-pinch-of-reality-a-look-at-manhattan-s-top-sales
(see #9)

Strook sounds like a sex act.

"Man, we strooked and then I busted all over her face"

for most of the stroock summers who didnt get offered , thre was a specific reason (oerformance or behavior); a few probably would have gotten offers in a year when the class was not so oversubscribed.

Just to make it clear, 20% for Stroock means that 8 people didn't get offers. The people who didn't get offers were not underperformers (in my opinion) or socially awkward. On the contrary, I've worked with some of them and they were very diligent, nice, and outgoing people.

I think they lost the popularity contest. The people who make the offer/no offer decision are a few key partners. If none of them feel strong about hiring you, then you will slip through the cracks and not get an offer. It's not about doing something wrong, but just not doing anything for the right people.

They will get jobs in better places, no reason to feel bad for them.

102 ='s no offered Strook summer.

102: if you aren't bright enough after 12 weeks to realize who makes the decisions and that you should be popular with them, then you don't deserve an offer. Take the fucking blinders off law students. WTF!

Lat,

There should be a post for the 3L interviewing season at the moment. It would be informative, even to those not as 3L to see how that correlates with the 2L no offer situation at moment. Just curious.

Thanks.

Disgusting that you could spend 3 years of your life and 6 figures on an education, only to "slip through the cracks" because you didn't kiss the right ass at some point during the world's longest job interview. My heart goes out to (I suspect) the many no-offerees who don't deserve the scrutiny or the stigma.

Doing a strooook callback soon

Should be fun to ask about

100, that's an intelligent comment. I bet you were one of the no-offers.

55 -- huh? You're obviously retarded.

55 -- the full sentence in 38 was "Without knowing the individual circumstances regarding each of the SA's who did not receive offers, this post simply misses the mark."

If you could read, that means that Elie, i.e., the author of the post, doesn't know the individual circumstances regarding the no-offers.

You wouldn't even qualify for doc review. At least for that you need to know how to read. Douchebag moron loser.

108: were you strooked by Mr. Strook?

67,
Perhaps I chose a poor example. I didn't know that HLS has been pillaging its students while giving education a backseat for so long. But, the fact remains that top law schools are getting bigger.

Is that why you're so pissy today? You've finally realized that HLS = TTT?

46 is on to something. I think a better approach is to withdraw the outstanding SA offers once a sufficient number of 2Ls have accepted.

You should add Reed Smith to the no -offer list and stay away from them if you are a 2L -- they blindsided the summers in NY

Does getting no offered during your 1L to 2L summer carry the same stigma?

115: no.

Law students, keep this in mind for OCI: You are interviewing firms as much as they are interviewing you. You can ding as well, and sometimes it's healthy if you do.

Examples (non-exhaustive) of firms to ding:

CWT
Mayer Brown
Heller
Sonnenschein
Strook

Didn't Mayer Brown have an incredibly large class for NY this summer? Why the hell did they do that? I think they had 50 summers in the NY office compared to usually around 30. I guess maybe it's because they know noone will be there this OCI, who knows.

Especially with the Bankruptcy NY office in the toilet now.

98, of course the firm will give you all sorts of BS - they want you to like them. I got that "offer is yours to lose" line too. Nevertheless, I still worked as if I had to earn the offer, to the point where I was missing most of the firm-sponsored entertainment and the nice HR lady was worried about me. I signed up for OCI, too, even though the firm kept assuring us that everyone would get offers - I only cancelled my interviews when I got my offer.

Mind you, I was working for a much nicer firm than Stroock; 100% of the summers got offers. But I still think I did the right thing in being paranoid.

If you want to see some really bad numbers, just look at the Texas firms... Lots of big firms have offer rates as low as 75% without any qualms. Just look at the NALP forms for summer of '07 in the Houston firms of Fulbright, Locke Liddell, or Baker & Daniels. They consistently no-offer people over the phone. I assume they feel a little more free to make cuts since more students split summers compared to other markets. Other markets will undoubtedly begin shifting to this model.

I was recently told by a recruiter at Stroock that they were really disappointed in their class this summer in that a lot of people were not attending events or making an effort to socialize with members of the firm. Pretty sure he was referring to the people who got no offered.

Any word on bonuses yet?

Texas has always been willing to no-offer. It's a different culture down there and they don't particularly care if recruiting elsewhere in the country suffers.

If you can't fit in, you won't be around, and that's the bottom line because Stone Cold said so, as it were.

Dear idiots who thing HYS students were "pwned" by this:

Stroock's summer class this year had about 4 students from Harvard and 3 or less from Yale and Stanford. The vast majority of HYS students would never consider working for a horrible firm like Stroock. Your opinion that they would demonstrates how clueless TTT students are.

As for that small number of elite students working at Stroock-- what makes you think they were the ones who were no-offered? Crap firms like Stroock need any HYS students they can get. The people getting laid off are number 1 in their class at TTT State Law, while the idiots of HYS keep their jobs.

ROFL at moron TTT students and their terrible job prospects.

106 - Dont hate the player, hate the game.

Future SAs - You absolutely have to kiss the relevant ass(es) and have that ass in your corner protecting you.

Gen Y law students are TTT.

I strongly encourage anyone who is doing OCI this year to load up on "Why do you want to be a lawyer?" questions. They make for some of the easiest screening I've ever seen.

Gen Y law students are TTT.

I strongly encourage anyone who is doing OCI this year to load up on "Why do you want to be a lawyer?" questions. They make for some of the easiest screening I've ever seen.

What a rancid toilet

91 and 92: you'll note that i said "firms often" not "stroock will". historically, that has generally happened. you may be right about what *will* happen in the current economy at this particular firm, but i am right about what has happened at other firms, in the past.

i can also tell you that for offered summers at a firm like stroock that acquires infamy in a given year, making the hop is generally easy. firms hear about things, they know what just happened. thus, for people who got offers at stroock, they won't have to do a lot of explaining about why they want to jump ship. when they hear you did get an offer in a cold cut environment, they give you credit for rising to the top.

25 - RIGHT ON TARGET.

the firm's hiring partner should be reported to a disciplinary board. some of my classmates were among the no-offered stroock SAs. all had almost identical stories: the hiring partner lied to them, unabashedly, throughout the process.

WTF? Why isn't NYU included in the HYS formula? Sure it's verbose to say HYSNC (HYS + NYU + Columbia) but shit --- NYU + Columbia are just as valuable

WTF? Why isn't NYU included in the HYS formula? Sure it's verbose to say HYSNC (HYS + NYU + Columbia) but shit --- NYU + Columbia are just as valuable

klgates gave a bunch of no's

i love stroock!

it is a "legendary law firm"

This information is completely wrong and misleading. The individual who summered there twice did in fact receive an offer. As for the individuals who did not receive offers, although I cannot say with certainty the particular circumstances of each no-offered summer, they were no offered for a reason.

135 = stroock recruiter/hiring partner = TTT

There was someone who had summered twice and did not receive an offer. Also, many of the people no-offered were very outgoing and popular with other summers, associates, and partners.

This job was listed within the past three days:

Associate Attorney, Corporate @ Stroock & Stroock & Lavan
Job Description
Counsel clients on various insurance related capital market transactions, including Regulation XXX & AXXX reserve funding, alternative risk tranfer, premium finance funding, life settlements & securitizations. Draft offering circulars, opinion letters & transaction documents. Develop comprehensive premium finance & life settlement programs. Advise clients on various insurance regulatory compliance matters including producer licensing & credit for reinsurance. Aid clients in recapitalization of domestic insurance company. Work Hours 9:00AM-6:00PM, Mon-Friday.

Requires J.D. degree or foreign equiv; admission to New York State Bar; 3 years experience in the position offered or 3 years experience as corporate or insurance attorney working on regulatory compliance matters for the insurance industry including 1 year experince in insurance & risk-linked securities, premium finance & life settlement capital markets transactions.

TO APPLY: Send a resume w/cover letter by MAIL to, Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP, Attn: Legal Recruiting, 180 Maiden Lane, NY. NY. 10038

While there has been lots of good advice for future SA's mentioned and reasonable theories for why some SA's didn't receive offers, the "over-subscribed" theory is hard to believe.

Last fall, I was deciding between offers from Stroock and two other firms for this summer. Stroock had mentioned throughout the interview process (and post-offer wooing) that their goal was to have a class of approximately 25 people. It wasn't until after Thanksgiving (when friends of mine had already accepted their offers at Stroock) when I was contacted by Legal Recruiting and informed that the firm had decided it wanted to more than double it's original plan for class size and instead have a class of more than 50 people. I wasn't totally sold on Stroock so this news, combined with the downturning market, scared me off.

It's possible that sharing that news was their way of saying, "we don't expect to extend offers to every SA next year." Nevertheless, I don't buy the oversubscription defense... they knew what they were getting themselves into far before the summer started.

101: "for most of the stroock summers who didnt get offered , thre was a specific reason (performance or behavior)"

What about the rest of them?

The fact is that, for several summers, Stroock's decision to dole out no-offers was completely arbitrary. It was due neither to deficient performance nor to poor behavior. Rather, those who lost out were victims of a vicious political atmosphere created by the hiring partners' complete and utter lack of clarity with respect to the summers' job security. The hiring partners made it so ambiguous as to how many summers they could hire that summers had no way to determine whether their work/behavior was satisfactory. The only place they could look was their reviews.

When a summer gets 100% positive reviews from his/her supervising attorneys, and high praise from the hiring partners themselves, he/she has a right to be surprised when he/she is no-offered.

You're all idiots and don't know what you're talking about

140, sometimes life is arbitrary and there is not a lot you can do about it but carry on. If there was room for only x summers and there are 8 people to cut, well, they MIGHT try to let you wrestle for it, but all things being equal, the decision is going to be arbitrary.

124, Stroock is not a crap firm. At least, its not been my experience. The people are great, the lifestyle is great and the work is great . That the firm may have been oversubscribed for the summer is unfortunate. These things have a way of balancing themselves out.

Is the attorney lifestyle at Stroock/chance to last longer than 2--3 years worth the assaults on the firm's reputation? Or does ATL trash-talking end when firm life begins?

DLA Piper no-offered and "waitlisted" summers in 2008.

143: If you're a law student with an offer at Stroock and you haven't yet decided where to work, take it and run. The people at SSL are some of the nicest New York lawyers I've met, not to mention brilliant and fun. The firm also has a lot of laterals from "more prestigious" firms: quality people who got sick of being mistreated at the place they started at. A couple of points lower on Vault or Chambers IS worth the better environment, and yes, you might actually "last longer than 2 to 3 years" there, as you said. Just do good work.