OCI Open Thread Follow-Up
[Ed. note: This post is by ALEX, one of the finalists in ATL Idol, the "reality blogging" competition that will determine ATL's next editor. It is marked with Alex's avatar (at right).]
We received nearly 200 comments on the OCI Open Thread, and to my surprise, most of them were not directed solely at how badly I suck. Small victory.
Many of the comments offered helpful advice from self-professed recruiting attorneys. Others offered glimmers of hope for the anxious and the under-performing. And some left no doubt that, no matter how badly you think you're going to do in interviews, others have done and will do worse.
First, though, take a deep breathe. A large number of 2ls from top-fifteen law schools get biglaw jobs. And many top-performing law students from other schools get biglaw jobs, too.
But even if you don't, it's no big deal. Seriously. OCI creates the false impression that the only sensible thing that you can do with a law degree is work at an AmLaw 100 firm. Don't be fooled.
Being a junior associate at a large law firm is not very fulfilling. You're not even really a lawyer; you're a low-level corporate employee with legal knowledge. Go try a case or counsel somebody with a problem. You'll undoubtedly wonder why you ever cared about this week.
With a little perspective, you'll do much better in your interviews. As commenters have repeatedly pointed out to me over the last two weeks, nobody likes someone who appears to be trying too hard. If you don't care so much, you'll be yourself. See Exley's excellent farewell post.
Okay, helpful advice and uncomfortable stories after the jump.
There's a general consensus that interviews do matter. Grades are critical, but they won't guarantee you a callback or completely close the door in your face.
Interviewers are looking for "normal" people who present well, ask engaging non-obvious questions, and appear to be easy to work with during long hours.
I've interviewed on-campus for biglaw firm for years. Here's some advice - guys, don't act cocky. No matter how good your grades are, you have a lot to learn. Ladies, don't giggle and act 'girly'. Be engaged, friendly and mature. Put some real thought into what information is important to you - ask thoughtful questions. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than a kid who's phoning it in w the run of the mill "are there pro bono opportunities?" questions. If you really do want that sort of information, then think it through to why, frame your question differently, and do your research on the firm beforehand. Don't ask me something that you could have already found out online. That's lazy and we know it. When I interview that rare well-spoken, confident, interesting and friendly/normal kid, I'll go to the mat to get them a callback.
You should be prepared to discuss everything on your resume. It wouldn't hurt to rehearse your spiel for each item.
Discussing your interests is generally a good thing: it gives the interviewer a break from the monotony, and it presumably gives you an opportunity to be articulate about something. Be careful, though. You don't want your interests to be too vanilla or too esoteric.
There's some confusion over my quip about discussing an interviewer's bio. You should definitely know your interviewers' bios. For sure. But actually discussing the bio is fraught with peril. I think there are very few times that mentioning something from an interviewer's bio doesn't appear clumsy or forced. There are times, of course, when it's natural: if your interviewer is in a certain practice group that you're interested in, it's natural to ask what his experience has been in that practice group. Questions that begin with "I saw on your bio," though, are probably unnatural unless you can really shore it up (e.g., "I wrote an article about the exact same topic"). Also, as the comments suggest, you don't want to appear to be a stalker; if you must discuss the interviewer himself, do not go outside of the four corners of the firm bio.
Just don't sound like a douche-bag, and you'll do great.
Your interviews will almost certainly go better than these:
White DC Latham interviewer at HLS got my asian name mixed up with another asian name and kept calling me by my wrong name and looked at the wrong resume throughout the interview. I kept correcting him and stating that I thought he had the wrong resume, but he refused to admit it. I didn't get the callback, so I guess the other asian dude had crappy grades. "I was set on working abroad, so I made sure during OCI that I had interviews set up for every firm that indicated it had a foreign office. London, Paris, Hong Kong. One firm had listed Vienna as one of its offices, but I was so thick that I didn't realize that it was Vienna, VA (I'm from the west coast - who ever heard of Vienna, VA?) Of course, my answer to the question "Why are you interested in our firm?" referenced my belief that I could end up working in Austria. That was sure embarassing. My interviewer walked out of his hotel room bathroom without his suit pants, but with his boxer shorts and socks still on. Yes, just like a Seinfeld episode. I had to try and decide if he just FORGOT, or was testing me to see if I'd comment. I am male, and married, so it wasn't SH, just odd.
And you never know, you might totally screw up your interview and still get a job:
The best OCI interview didn't take place. Slept through the initial interview and 5 days later got the letter . . ."Thank you for interviewing . . . blah, blah, blah. We would like to invite you for additional interviews in the firm's New York offices"
(142) Comments
wow, still having trouble with breath and breathe.
Self-proclaimed. Oh, and first.
Damn you 1!
-2
1:49 - I interpreted "breathe" as a knowing wink at his earlier typo.
4-- Alex isn't that clever
This is actually pretty funny:
"First, though, take a deep breathe. A large number of 2ls from top-fifteen law schools get biglaw jobs. And many top-performing law students from other schools get biglaw jobs, too."
Assuming of course the the breathe is the clue that this entire line is pure satire. If not then it's horrid.
Me: When do you think NYC will hit $190? Do you expect to be the firm that sets the bar?
OCI Associate: I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, but in any event, I'm not privy to that sort of information. We do believe in market-rate compensate, I should note, and we have always been very competitive in that regard.
Me: I would like to push you on this, just because I would like to be at the firm that pushes the market to $190 and cuts that deadweight at pseudo-BIGLaw joints like Cadwalader.
OCI Associate: I like grapes.
The ENTIRE first half of the post was a complete and utter waste!! WTF Alex! Quit rambling.
But other than that, the rest was pretty good and informative.
I'm a 3L heading back to OCI and I got a whooping two interviews. Life sucks right now.
9, it's "whopping," not "whooping".
Hee hee. He did Top 15 Law Schools again. I guess it's really ingrained in him. Look, I'm sorry, but wherever you went is not the equivalent of Yale, Harvard, Standford, NYU, Columbia, Chicago...
Way. Too. Long.
This post was WAAAAAAY too long. And boring except for the parts that simply quote ATL commenters (the one from the Asian dude at HLS is hilarious (though obviously terrible)). I'm debating whether this erases Alex's momentum from this morning's post entirely and lands him back in last place, where he was yesterday. We'll have to see how terrible the other contestants' second posts of the day are.
This was good. I'm starting to like all of them and feel sad that two have to leave soon.
11, it's "Stanford," not Standford.
Sort of worthless, but at least Alex listened to my comment about confining your discussion to the online bio so as not to appear a stalker freak.
I went to OCI and got no offers.
What did I do wrong? Was it the black tie?
-Loyola2L
YOU IDIOT. IT IS BREATH NOT BREATHE. YOU WERE CORRECTED ONCE. FAIL.
Again? Didn't we just do this? Why do we need another post from this clown on this topic??
Its self-mockary. Its a pretty damn good post. I love the first paragraph.
I went to OCI and got no offers.
What did I do wrong? Was it the black tie?
-Loyola2L
Just breath, 15.
Loyola 2L,
The first thing you did wrong was attend Loyola.
Its self-mockery. Its a pretty damn good post. I love the first paragraph.
Loyola 2L,
The first thing you did wrong was attend Loyola.
Loyola 2L,
The first thing you did wrong was attend Loyola.
This might be a good time to resolve the UPenn State Philly controversy that enveloped an earlier thread. Can someone set me straight on this?
11's "Standford" reference is easily the funniest thing on ATL all week. 11 to EIC!!
Loyola 2L,
The first thing you did wrong was attend Loyola.
Um, did Alex write this drunk?
Just breath, 15.
18, why don't you flip out some some before you realize that Alex is trolling you.
"Breathe" = best intentional, self-depreciating humor on this blog in a long time. I thought it was great.
The post overall--eh, C/C+. Not much going on here...
There's a lot of people not getting subtle (and even not so subtle) humor today.
This just in, Michelle Branch releases new hit single "Breath."
this is so boring
I'm not entirely certain why a follow up to a bad post was necessary...
I like it. Alex's opening post on this theme seemed weak. But that was just his request for comments. He did a good job of highlighting the funnier and more interesting comments and tying it together.
Loved the self-deprecating humor and the d-bag reference. The "breathe" misspelling makes me think that Alex not only has a sense of humor, but also understands subtlety.
37,
It's part of the "feature article" assignment that I think was supposed to span 2-3 days - sp he had to have another post on this.
This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy heading into OCI. I like it.
39-- well that suck for us
"OCI creates the false impression that the only sensible thing that you can do with a law degree is work at an AmLaw 100 firm. Don't be fooled."
Umm... it is the only sensible thing you can do given the current debt burden of law students; the pedigree happy culture of the legal community; and the bigotry of peers.
Seriously... I've not seen many people move from government or public interest into in-house counsel, nor have I seen many small or mid-size associates get in-house counsel jobs. The vast majority are big law associates. The same is true for most prestigious jobs, whether it is federal judgeships or partnerships at big law firms.
Some may say that there are exceptions, but that's just it, they are exceptions and not the rule. There is only one way to go in law school - law review, moot court, big law. Period. Anything else is a failure.
I think it's pretty obvious that 'breathe' is an attempt at cute self-deprecation. But the rest of the post sucks.
42- Get laid often? Thought not.
Could someone please tell me what the first thing I did wrong was?
~Loyola 2L
Although I loath people who can't spell breathe, people who don't understand intentional jokes are really the penultimate in being rediculous.
I disagree with the "I saw on your bio..." advice. I have interviewed several potential summer associates. I appreciate when a candidate shows they have read my bio (many do not, even when they get their interview schedule in advance) and asks me about it. It doesn't even need to be pretentious, like "I wrote an article on the same topic" -- I think a simple "I saw in your bio that you worked on X case, can you tell me about that?" or "It says in your bio you're active in pro bono, are associates generally active?," or "I saw on your bio that you have argued in court, how did you get that opportunity?", etc. are good questions and it allows us to talk about more substantive things than where summers get taken to lunch or the weather.
This post is very long and only slightly entertaining. Self mockery is always appreciated, but this joke really only tickles people who find spelling funny.
I'm just not sure that I would read the blog, if these posts are some indication of its future. I agree with the sentiment expressed in the comments generally that the contestants should get back to fat people jokes. I know fat jokes are easy and lazy, but so is a Bon Jovi groupie on a segway, and I would definitely read a blog about that.
46: I appreciate his humor, and yours in the spelling departments.
47: I agree with you re the bio. When I was the one being interviewed, most seemed pleased I had done such a thorough job of researching. Now that I'm doing the interviewing, I appreciate the someone is serious enough to review my bio and ask substantive questions about what my practice is like.
I have herpes
42 - Unless you're being sarcastic, what an utterly asinine comment.
Has it occurred to people who read this blog that there are areas of the country where "Big Law" is non-existent? Where salaries are market competitive and, compared to the cost of living in BigLaw cities, actually net the attorneys more money that BigLaw? Entire swathes of the South and Midwest are devoid of Biglaw presence. Nevertheless, great money and great lawyers can be found in these places...
Loyola 2L
Going to Loyola was the first mistake. The second was wearing that black tie. The third was being so obviously desperate for a job that you offered to shine the interviewer's shoes with your black tie.
It's self-mockery. It's a pretty damn good post. I love the first paragraph.
You see "it's" is a contraction of "it is". "Its" is a possessive. You are an idiot.
42, can you show me where the courthouse is? Thought not.
I think wearing an American flag on the lapel of my suit and the Federalist Society membership on my resume presented grave difficulties for me in obtaining a callback from OCI.
Damn liberal OCI interviewers!
-Pencil necked conservative geek
42 obviously gets no tail.
55,
See if you can get a job offer from the fruitcakes in Volokh.
55,
See if you can get a job offer from the fruitcakes in Volokh.
I agree with those who have said that this is really self-mockery at its best. The subtlety was definitely lost on many.
56,
While 42 may get no tail, 42 will likely be a judge while you're defending hos in Night Court.
56: but did 42 did a bonus equal to his big law salary? No? Well, then all that effort wasted for nothing.
51,
Who the hell would want to live in the south or midwest?
42=60=fail
47, 49, I agree that asking about something on their bio is good if you are interested, or can at least do a good job of appearing to be interested. But it can fall flat if you really don't have much interest. And it is definitely a little weird and stalker-like to ask questions about the intereviewer based on research you have done beyond the bio. As a candidate, you don't want to put the interviewer on the spot. You want the interviewer to like you, which is easier when you make him or her feel at ease.
42 and other insufferable people like him or her cannot grasp a world beyond BIGLAW, 51, so don't even bother trying. They cannot accept that many of us have no desire to be a federal judge or in-house counsel (as if that's some kind of big-time, prestigious job instead of yet another lackey position at a company).
I should've predicted the content of the post from the "Ummmm...." as introduction.
62,
Legal practice in Atlanta or Chicago can be much better than the hell grounds of NYC.
60,
So 42's a no-tail-getting night court judge? T14, bitches.
56
60, don't knock defending hos in Night Court. I love my job...
50 = hilarious
67,
Clearly, you cannot read.
42 doesn't get any tail and is a judge while YOU are the public defender in Night Court.
Talk about EPIC FAIL.
66: Don't forget about Houston or Austin as well (I can't say whether practicing in Dallas is enjoyable or not). As much as this board seems to hate Texas, it's a great place to practice. My base (though not bonus) matches NYC, I actually get to court on occassion without having my hand held, and it's a lot more laid back and mentoring focused--at least at my BIGlaw job.
70 (who also obviously gets no tail),
It was a joke. Anyway, why would anyone do any of this if not for tail?
67
42 - "The same is true for most prestigious jobs, whether it is federal judgeships or partnerships at big law firms."
You might want to check your facts on the federal judgeships part. You are dead wrong there. Many federal judges come from mid to small firms.
Not getting tail is so T14.
67,
Granted I don't get any tail because I am a sixth year associate who works full time in a top 100 law firm while on the other hand, you are just a noob law student trying to get an offer from OCI.
Take care of your Asperger's and take a bath before interviews, son.
Oh, with your execrably bad reading skills, you probably won't pass the bar.
While I can't predict your ultimate career trajectory, I think you might want to learn to say "Want fries with that?"
2L at a T37 law school here gearing up for OCI. Would it be a big deal to tell an interviewer from a V19 firm that the reason I really want to work there is so that I can squander the few unbillable hours in my day mocking people at lower ranked schools and firms and constantly reminding Lat, Kash, and other ATL editor-wannabes how much they suck?
Want a tip on handling OCI interviews?
Jerk off before interviews. Seriously.
75 (42, etc): why so angry today? If you've been working non-stop for days in an effort to close a deal, or file a motion, please, close your door, get under your desk, and take a nap.
I'm not sure what to tell you about the getting tail part...though if you're at Wachtell, wait around the women's restroom where, evidently, half-dressed women with pearl necklaces will appear and maybe be willing to help you.
Mediocre at best. Though I appreciated the "breathe". Call it a self-referential wink.
66, good observation. Chicago is a much better city all around than NYC. Better night life, better looking girls, amazing restaurants, better hours at work. NYC is expensive, overcrowded, and rancid smelling. Who the hell would want to live there?
T37 -- what? http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/law/search/page+2
75 worked at CWT.
High octane hate is the fuel that runs through BigLaw firms.
If you have to ask, you're not in the loop.
82,
No, 75 works at CWT.
I'd be angry 24/7 if I had to work under Bob Link or Chris White.
82,
No, 75 works at CWT.
I'd be angry 24/7 if I had to work under Bob Link or Chris White.
75,
The whole "You want fries with that?" thing is a pretty lame putdown. Why not use something hip and with it like, "Talk to the hand!" or "Up your nose with a rubber hose." If you respond to this please try to work in "jumped the shark."
"You are the weakest link! Goodbye."
86
Not getting in between you two love birds, but those are mighty lame putdowns. At least he got his point across and you just... followed.
You'll never grab the brass ring at that rate.
81 got trolled
Is an interviewer really going to care if you wear a black pin-dot tie? I mean if your whole ensemble looks professional and well put together?
75,
The fact that you think it is acceptable for a grown man to take a bath for purposes of cleaning himself might have something to do with your failure to procure "tail." Are you really okay with washing your hair with the same water that goes in your brown eye?
LOL. 75 is a dude that takes baths.
77- do you mean, literally, right before walking through the door, or like, that morning, before you take a shower?
90
Go back to your billables, son. Your second career as a second hand comedian isn't quite working out here.
You haven't quite grasped that everyone's laughing at you and not with you.
90, 91, 92
Learn to read properly before taking the bar exam.
Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.
I really hope that you don't hand this sort of critical analysis to your managing partner because you'll find yourself shitcanned in short order and it won't be a stealth layoff.
93, 94
Go back to your LSAT class.
"But even if you don't, it's no big deal. Seriously. OCI creates the false impression that the only sensible thing that you can do with a law degree is work at an AmLaw 100 firm. Don't be fooled."
Nice misinformation.
It's not the only, thing, sure, one can:
1) Take a job that pays <$55k
2) Take a job that pays no salary, but a piece of whatever PI suit that you can find and bring in and settle quickly
3) Get a job as a waiter/bartender/Best Buy employee
4) Go back to doing what you did before lawschool
This was what happened to the 90% of students at my "tier 1 school (i.e. - crap)" who did not get a BIGLAW job
Keep up the gratuituous insults.
They'll come in handy as I insult the OCI interviewers.
-Loyola2L
93,
LOL.
LOL @ 1 - 98. Sheep.
96 - Chill out on those commas.
"A large number of 2ls from top-fifteen law schools get biglaw jobs."
Outrageous Vandy trolling. Top 5% of students @ Vandy, UCLA, USC, & UT get national biglaw
As long as this man thinks it's okay to wear a black suit (and a blue shirt, for that matter), then I shall follow suit. (Pun clearly intended).
http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/alum_mag/issues/125anniversaryissue/lipton.html
Wow 35! What a fresh reference!!
As a Vandy student, let me be the first to call Alex out as an alum. I have no proof, but everything from his intro to his insistence on calling it the T15 fits the bill.
And no, #101, not just the top 5%... sigh... you must be a paranoid GULC-er.
This 75 guy is really quite amazing. A sixth year associate? Must think he's actually got a shot a making partner (the brass ring). My guess is a guy making multiple humorless posts on ATL in the middle of the day is either a law student pretending to be a sixth year associate or not really the kind of guy to have accurately judged his chances of making partner. Then again many partners are humorless d-bags (that take baths rather than showers?), so maybe 75 has just what it takes.
102, that suit isn't black. Try again.
You are not an undertaker or an Italian gangster. Do not wear black.
105- I think he's a mouth-breathing law student at GULC who just got a monochrome shirt/tie set at Sears to wear to OCI.
I think you're color blind, 106. Or maybe just in denial.
108, it has pinstripes. Look closer. But, it is double breasted.
102 - that man did not get any offers upon graduating nyu. back in the day jews did not get hired, and so he was forced (together with herb) to start their own place
correct, 110, but he didn't get no-offered because he wore a black suit to OCI, he got no-offered because he is Jewish.
So is a black a suit with pin stripes kosher? Just so long as the suit isn't solid black?
iagain blue and grey (not the real light ones though) are the way to go. black suit can work if its not one of those shiny ones, pin stripe or not. the shiny black ones just look cheap and funny. again unless its really a weird getup, you are important and not the suit, even if they remember the clothing
I saw a guy leaving OCI in front of me wearing a black suit, black shirt, and black tie. He didn't get a call back. I did.
Should I mention in my OCI interviews that I prefer showers to baths? Will this help establish my normalcy?
On the "I saw on your bio" issue: I was interviewing with a judge for an externship position while in law school, and mentioned that he had attended HLS at the same time as my former boss (8 years as a paralegal). It turned out they were close friends, and we discussed trials that former boss and I had worked on that the judge knew about. It wasn't a deal clincher, but I'm sure the drive-by reference didn't hurt.
115- So, you didn't get the gig?
77 seconded. 5-10 minutes before, preferably.
Nobody cares about Atlanta or Chicago or (god forbid) Houston. Get over it.
115 here. I did.
LOL@"2L at a T37 law school here"
How sad . . .
What are OCI?
-3L Appalachian
The dirty secret of OCI is that call backs are based on a point system. You are assigned points based on the color and cut of your suit, tie, shirt, shoes, and accessories (cuff links, pocket squares, prince alberts, etc.) To get a V5 job you have to either end up on an episode of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy or turn your credit cards over to a personal shopper. Ordering suits from the guy who is always advertising a sale in NY Times is not an acceptable alternative. And do not under any circumstance wear a shirt with with a different color collar, the interviewer will assume you got lost on your way to an interview with a banking firm or are related to Lawrence Kudlow.
There are a few ways to game the system and score bonus points:
1) Jerry Ties
2) Jackets with gold buttons
3) Snake skin boots
I hope I am not de-equitized for posting this but it is time to put an end to this system.
Good luck through OCI - you will all need it.
-V5 Recruiting Partner
Any thoughts on bolo ties? Yey or nay for OCI interviews?
-U. of New Mexico Law School 2L
So, does that mean I should get a Prince Albert before OCI? Will I still be able to j-off before the interview? OMG, the stress!
123 - atl had a piece on this a while back. some lawyer wore it in court and the judge did not like it....
Yea or Nay on short suits? Did we ever decide?
anyone know the scoop on Gordon and Rees. They pay well, seem to have an interesting practice, and are huge on the west coast, but yet their recent summer class comes from almost entirely TTTs.
So, do you guys (such as 124) plan on using a public restroom in the building...there's no way you can do that 5-10 minutes before the interview while at home and still make it on time to the offices.
124 -
I'm not saying don't get a Prince Albert, just make sure the steel is medical grade. There is nothing worse than watching someone stumble through an interview after trying to save a little money in that department
Worst. Post. Ever.
127-
Gordon & Rees doesn't pay that well but are a decent firm to work at. If you work hard you can definitely make non-equity partner. The SF office is a little crazy and sometimes operates like a fraternity/sorority but most of the equity partners I know there are class acts. I've heard good things about the LA and SD offices. You'll have a good shot at lateraling to a V50 firm after a few years if you don't like it. If you're t14 I'm sure you'll get offers from more prestigious firms but if you're a TTT or in the middle of the class it's not a bad option.
122-
You make me laugh, Please enter the EIC contest.
Warm Regards,
Your Secret Admirer
132 = 122 = toolboxdonkey
42 is either a troll or just such an unbelievable loser.
I would rather have a hungry TTT lawyer than some entitled schlub from T14 billing me for facebook.
If I walk into an interview and wink several times at the interviewer, do you think I'll get a job? Or should I just take the safe route and give him/her a high-five?
this website is trash