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Extinction Level Event: Outsourcing

outsourcing biglaw aba tsunami.gifRemember when “outsourcing” was something that only blue collar workers with “some” high school education had to worry about? Well, those days are long gone, and now the global economy is officially poised to raid Biglaw jobs.

In an opinion (PDF) made public on Tuesday, the ABA declared shipping legal work overseas to be ethically permissible. The New York Law Journal reports that the first causalities will likely be contract attorneys brought in for extra muscle during document intensive litigation.

But we know it won’t stop there. Check in with any other industry that has to face off against a subcontinent of educated, English-speaking professionals willing to do the work for fractions of what Americans demand. It’s not pretty.

To be sure, we can count on the ABA to erect other (largely protectionist) policies, to ensure that high-end legal work remains the sole purview of partners graduates from accredited law schools.

Yet so long as Biglaw remains big business, how long before the work of junior associates can be cost effectively shipped overseas? It’s not like firms want to go to $190K for incoming associates.

People already in the pipeline should be fine. But change is coming to our profession. This ABA decision isn’t the tip of an iceberg, it is the receding sea that anticipates a tsunami.

Make haste for high ground.

ABA Gives Thumbs Up to Legal Outsourcing [Law.com]

Earlier: Biglaw to… Rupees?

Comments

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1 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:44 PM

First? And I never thought I'd care to be.

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2 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:44 PM

first!

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3 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:45 PM

2 - I beat you (#1)

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4 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:48 PM

There are already plenty of lower-ranked law school graduates and underemployed attorneys in the US market that would deign to accept that work for those wages.

The trick, as smarter people have repeatedly explicated, is that BigLaw advertises using "branding" techniques. Here's a famous microeconomics example: when you're in Omaha and you're hungry for meat, you could stop by Teddy's burger joint on the side of the road or the golden arches. Which one do most people choose? The golden arches. Why? Because they know what to expect, because behavioral economics posits all sort of brand-name attachements, because they want a quarter-pounder with cheese.

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5 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:50 PM

This is the kind of hysterical characterization of the ABA opinion you would expect from someone who has never practiced law in any but the nominal sense. I don't know what's worse, a bimbo who never went to law school and thus can't be blamed for her gaffes, or a bozo who did and can. Both produce the same kind of uninformed story. Why not just turn the entire site over to Dealbreaker. Why bother pretending it's about law anymore.

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6 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:50 PM

Seems like the ABA has totally ignored the experience of other industries when outsourcing. They talk maintaining client confidentiality like it's an easy task. Ask those who have outsourced engineering, computer programming, and computer support about security and client issues.

What a mess.

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7 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:51 PM

How can "legal work", i.e., acts constituting the practice of law, performed by attorneys not licensed in the relevant US jurisdiction be lawful, let alone "ethical"?

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8 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:51 PM

My point is that you're most probably incorrect if you think it's a "receding sea." (Nice poetic touch, by the way. I liked the metaphor, though I dispute its accuracy and relevance.) I would go so far as to argue that the first firm to outsource too much work will be the first out of business -- or in an uncharted legal market that may be the demise of us all.

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9 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:52 PM

Oh shit. Oh SHIT! The end is near! OH SHIT!

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10 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:53 PM

How does outsourcing not violate the unauthorized practice of law? A firm can't pick some Joe Schmo off of the street and have him review docs, but they now can use someone in India that is not licensed in any U.S. state?

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11 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:55 PM

7: practicing law is mostly a matter of making legal arguments for why your client should prevail. I don't see why you have to be born in a certain country to make such arguments.

The ethics of it are even more straightforward. Is it right or wrong for a foreigner to read documents for a legal purpose and be duly compensated? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like an ethical issue to me.

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12 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:57 PM

Way to screw over the lawyers again, ABA!

Any time they or any state that it is not ok for a lawyer to exclusively do something (e.g. allow non-lawyers to practice law, or in this case quasi-law practice), it takes away business from the legal community.

Granted doc review is mindless work that a monkey could do, but at least we get to bill $150+ an hour for it. Now clients can pay some indian firm $20 (or less) an hour for the same work.

Thank you ABA for taking money out of our pockets.

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13 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:59 PM

11: spoken like a true non-lawyer douche... go back to tmz or whatever other piece of sh*t site you usually read.

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14 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:59 PM

11: spoken like a true non-lawyer douche... go back to tmz or whatever other piece of sh*t site you usually read.

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15 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:59 PM

11: spoken like a true non-lawyer douche... go back to tmz or whatever other piece of sh*t site you usually read.

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16 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:02 PM

Maybe in the wake of losing mindless jobs to people who will accept reasonable compensation, the legal profession will regain its former reputation as a magnet for the thoughtful.

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17 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:06 PM

16: that reputation is mostly mythic, IMO. Lawyers, like doctors, are treated with hostility because they deal with (and, it could be argued, exploit) information asymmetries.

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18 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:06 PM

I surely dont want the people who can barely fix my computer over the phone with their engineering degrees making privileged calls with whatever degree they have.

Where are they going to ship this stuff to India, not a very compatable legal system for outsourcing doc review...should be fun to see the aftermath of the experiments though.

I would fear more from computers than from the same people that brought you Dell's awesome customer service.

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19 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:06 PM

The ABA's failure to protect lawyers and the profession is clearly evidenced by allowing TTT law schools to crank out tens of thousands of law grads a year that are not qualified to get real legal jobs, thus creating a TTT industry and furthering TTT practice areas and giving the other 5% of us a bad name.

HTH.

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20 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:07 PM

I actually outsourced some research to one of these firms, in India, with the consent of the client. We agreed that they would do 40 hours of work and would charge $10 per hour on a project that was not very complicated. The result was absolute garbage and completely unusable.

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21 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:09 PM

My job was outsourced to our Bratislava "office." I'm pissed!!

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22 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:09 PM

This is something I have predicted for a very long time, but many of you asstards wouldn't hear of it -- bleating about the sanctity of the law.

The market trumps the practice of law.

Enjoy that, assmonkeys.

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23 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:09 PM

It's only the ABA model rules that were changed. When states start changing their model rules accordingly, then I will start worrying. Until then...guys in my high school used to outsource all the shit work they didn't want to do all the time, it was no big deal.

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24 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:13 PM

20: I know software engineers who tell me the same thing about outsourced projects. Companies have to backtrack and spend millions in order to clean up the messes.

With legal work, there's a reason you pay millions to a top firm: because they do TOP work.

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25 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:21 PM

23,

Ever hear of one step at a time?

Or the frog in a boiling pot of water?

That's the legal profession for you these days.

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26 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:21 PM

hell i don't even trust first years with important research, not to mention someone i've never met, working for pennies on the dollar. i can't imagine anything of actual value being outsourced. as for the crap work (yes, that includes privilege logs to the chagrin of junior litigators here) - let it be outsourced. what's the difference if we have contract attorneys reviewing docs in the basement or Indians doing it in Bangalore?

There will always be a lucrative market for good lawyers and high-value legal work. it would appear that what happens to the low end of the market is outside the area of interest of most ATL commenters anyway.

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27 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:22 PM

13 - 15: spoken like a true, triple-posting douche . . .

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28 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:23 PM

I hear in India one can get an MBA over the internet like someone can become an ordained minister over the internet here in the U.S. True story.

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29 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:25 PM

28 - i don't know about that, but i have read that there is rampant cheating on Western standardized tests administered there.

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30 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:30 PM

In Bratislava, the documents review YOU!

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31 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:36 PM

Maybe this makes sense for routine form work, but having random lawyers in India review documents on a bet-the-company litigation could be disastrous. As it is, American contract attorneys miss key documents.

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32 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:36 PM

Most of you will be done with large law firm practice or you'll be partners before this type of outsourcing really starts to impact the higher end of the profession. That said you cannot fight labor arbitrage even in the context of Biglaw. While we probably won't see major M&A deals being done by contract attorneys in India, much of litigation is relatively simple document review. While $20 and hour probably won't buy you the best quality reviews there are a lot of very bright people in India who can do the job well for 1/3, or 1/2 our hourly rates. Don't think for a second that many clients won't be pushing for this on huge, document intensive litigation. The sky is not falling, but certainly there is cause for concern. Major ibanks have already begun pilot programs farming out there midoffice research jobs to firms in India. These Indian firms have seen business double in the last year as banks have been tightening their belts because of the credit mess. The NYTimes Business section had a big story a this a couple of weeks back. If nothing else, think of the ABA's decision as another nail in the coffin for calls of "NY to 190!"

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33 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:38 PM

NY to 190!

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34 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:41 PM

Only cause for concern if you attend(ed) a TTT

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35 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:41 PM

Very solid Elie.

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36 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:42 PM

If the Indian lawyers are just as competent as their call-center counterparts, I think this alarm is a little premature. It took one of those call-center clowns over 40 minutes to change my address for my credit card. I wonder how long it would take them to review a contract? At some point, you get what you pay for.

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37 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:43 PM

The best part is that the ABA just backed outsourcing U.S. legal work to India, while India prevents foreign firms from practicing in India. Way to go!

http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11090513

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38 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:46 PM

india to 12k!

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39 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:52 PM

36-
All true, but that call-center guy costs so little that it's worth the hit in customer service to your credit card company. Even though many associates work on bet the company cases and complex cross border transactions, much the grunt work that lets them grind out thousands of billable hours per year can be done by others for substantially less than the going rate of a first year associate. So more complex legal work can be outsourced to a hypothetical Indian office of a large law firm where the billable rates are way less than they would be stateside. Don't think for a second that 80k or much less won't buy clients "good enough" document review or due diligence on relatively routine matters. Sure, people like you would still be doing higher end work, but someone in India will be citechecking, or pulling sample filings off live edgar, depriving some first year of much needed hours. But you'll be well into your legal career and have made most of your money by then. This outsourcing of legal services is much more of concern for the class of 2018 than for top tier grads already at Amlaw 100 firms.

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40 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:54 PM

Prior posters: you're missing the point.

At the top of the foodchain, high legal fees are guaranteed by three simple letters: OPM. When directors/management of large corporations or finance partnerships need to hire legal counsel, they hire the most expensive ones they can find because (a) they ain't paying, and (b) they view the hiring of lawyers who charge stratospheric fees as protection from derivative/fiduciary suits. File that as "silly but true."

If you're in the top 10, or if you're in a very well-thought-of practice with OPM-type clients, this won't matter at all.

The rest of biglaw, the price-competitive riff-raff, will eventually feel this bite. But considering the minimal success of outsourcing in other industries so far and the glacial (ha! another eco-reference!) rate at which biglaw and our clients adapt to major changes, that won't happen for a while.

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41 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:57 PM

39: Ugh . . . that's seven more years.

Trade is good. It ruins some industries in a process that economists call "creative destruction," but, ultimately, the market corrects itself and almost everyone wins by it. This might eat the next generation of lawyers (and their TTT schools and counterparts), but the 2150 generation will be more respected, more talented, and more attractive.

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42 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:02 PM

TTT law graduates should become familiar with terms such as "Namaste," and "Vindaloo," and "Shri/Shrimati."

Best of luck.

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43 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:03 PM

(1) I guess the question is, what does it mean to say you've hired X or Y BigLaw firm to work on your case if much of the work will be done by anonymous employees of an outsourcing subcontractor firm half a world away whom the lawyers ostensibly hired to work on the case have never met and will never meet? I realize that the same argument could be made for US-based contract lawyers working out of a windowless document-review room in the US law firm's office--or even associates at the law firm's other offices. This just seems to take it one very big step further. Is the idea that clients will just buy the "brand?" If so, what goes into making the brand if much of the heavy lifting is all outsourced outside of the firm?

(2) Anyone have any idea how client confidentiality will be protected? If BigLaw firm X hires outsourcing outfit A, will outsourcing outfit A be disqualified from accepting work from BigLaw firm Y if they're adverse to BigLaw firm X in that case? Will they just have to wall off one set of their contract attorneys from the other? How is this supposed to be policed?

(3) Why would any client facing "bet the company litigation" (I know--sorry) or otherwise have highly sensitive trade secrets or other proprietary or sensitive information they need protected agree to this?

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44 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:11 PM

41-
Great point about creative destruction, but a market correction here might mean our successors all make a lot less money. A greater supply of comparable legal services in certain areas, document review and some other first year work, should drive the price for legal services down. Lower salaries for young lawyers at some point in the foreseeable future.

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45 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:12 PM

India is one big fat exception to client confidentiality under ABA model rules. Look it up.

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46 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:14 PM

4: Understood, but if McDonald's suddenly said, "it's way too expensive to maintain uniform standards, etc., so we'll just buy all of our meat and other food products from the same place as Teddy's (and from comparable supply channels in other markets), and end up serving up the same stuff that Teddy's is serving up, while still charging a significant premium because we're the McDonald's 'brand,'" how long until people figure out that they're serving the same stuff as Teddy's but at premium prices, and that there's no rational reason to keep going to McDonald's just because of their no-longer-warranted "brand" image?

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47 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:17 PM

This is a bunch of alarmist trash. Not to sound coarse, but there is no way that Vishnu (call me Jim) is going to be doing document review.

If you've ever called Capital One's customer service, you understand why. I have had situations with my Capital One card (i.e. lost the card, needed a replacement, forgot my phone password), and tried to explain these situations to "Jim" in India. Unfortunately, Jim just didn't understand. I had to repeat myself several times. I had to ask for two supervisors, etc.

Although document review may be menial, it is still incredibly important. Maybe I have no room to talk as only a 1st year associate, but I have seen cases that seemed to turn on one or two sentences in one or two crucial documents. Often times, you can't just do a control-F and search for "conspiracy". You need to be completely literate; you need to be able to understand concepts; to search for ideas and not just words. An Indian firm doing document review seems a bit risky, unless all of them are absolutely 100% fluent in English.

What's more, American firms already outsource so much of their document review for $30/hr to licensed attorneys who went to law school in America, are fluent in English, etc. Would you really be able to get highly qualified, fluent Indian document reviewers for much less than that?

I also question whether or not this would amount to Indian nationals practicing law in America. Would these Indian attorneys have to be licensed to practice in some American jurisdiction? Would they all have to sit for the New York bar?

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48 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:17 PM

Hey, 19!

"ABA's failure to protect lawyers"???

"real legal jobs"???

You're giving YOURSELF the bad name, slick. When your smug, entitled ass hits the curb, it won't be Sanjaya's fault.

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49 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:20 PM

47: The firms usually pay $60 to $80+ an hour to one of the staffing companies for the doc reviewers and then bill the client $200+ an hour.

Also, every customer service department in India is a nightmare for U.S. customers, yet most companies are still doing it.

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50 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:21 PM

44,

"Lower salaries for young lawyers at some point in the foreseeable future."

The only quibble I have with this statement is "foreseeable." I think that there will be a permanent diminution in the salary expectations of lawyers in general.

Bob Link, for example, will have to settle for a one bedroom pied a terre in Amanganssett in the Hamptons instead of the current digs he has there. Salary expectations will be ratcheted downwards regardless of where you are as a lawyer -- partner, fourth year, or incoming summer.

It's going to be a fun ride, folks, in the legal field thanks to the ABA's kowtowing towards a mythical "market force."

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51 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:21 PM

I don't see what the big deal is. Do you want to be junior associates the rest of your lives? So what if some doc review gets shipped overseas? It won't affect you, because hopefully by the time it catches on you'll be partner or out of law altogether. When you're a partner, paying Habib $20/hr to do the job you were paying John $120/hr to do just increases the PPP that you are compensated from.

Furthermore, in the long run this may reduce the saturated market of young lawyers. We already have way too many law schools in this country, and thus way too many graduates, many of which are TTT's. It will reduce the number of American lawyers and possibly law schools if lower-end tasks are distributed to other countries, but it will also reduce the number of lawyers making $45,000 a year in America (which is really too little for a three-year degree). So in the long run it will make it harder to become an attorney, possibly moving it toward medical school in terms of difficulty of admission.

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52 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:24 PM

I'm surprised to see such lively discussion from the ATL commentators. Then again, I'm a cantankerous contrarian, so you should take my opinion with salt.

44: It's nice to see someone take to my "creative destruction" stance. In my opinion, the legal profession has lost a great deal of its prestige because of the rates for these "menial" tasks. People once respected trial lawyers, appellate litigators, and corporate lawyers (part-time financial consultants, in actuality) because they kept up their information asymmetries, and, by extension, their prestige. These days, clients can hop on ATL and see where their money is going.

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53 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:27 PM

checkout endofesq.com

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54 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:27 PM

50, I don't think it necessarily means decreases in salary for top lawyers. For example, radiology is a field of medicine where outsourcing already occurs (look into a company called Nighthawk, and you'll see it's quite profitable). However, the salaries of radiologists have not really been affected greatly. I mean, if you have a choice of having your films read by an American that graduated from a Caribbean med school or someone in New Dehli, maybe that's not as big of a difference. But someone from an upper-tier med school should not feel threatened by the guy in New Dehli.

When it comes down to it, the upper echelon will be largely unaffected, as it is in other outsourced areas like radiology, and the lower tier will have to compete for work.

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55 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:29 PM

54: You are assuming one has a choice. What if your doctor/hospital sends your charts over to Mumbai without asking and charges you the same price?

The same abuse could be used in law as well.

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56 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:30 PM

51: It's a major deal. Haven't you ever heard of a "precedent"?

I agree with your stance on TTTs, but, as you readily acknowledge, the market still hasn't corrected itself in that regard. Information asymmetries STILL haunt the industry.

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57 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:31 PM

I hear they have good Indian Food in India.

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58 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:32 PM

Does WGWAG apply to Indians?

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59 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:35 PM

56: The market will never correct itself beause of all the TTT lawyers. In fact an entire "industry" of TTT practices (family law, PI, ect..) has resulted from the oversupply of lawyers in the country. This will not change until the ABA steps up and closes 90% of the law schools out there.

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60 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:36 PM

54: you know very little about medical schools. Unlike the prestige-fixated legal world, medical prestige depends on your residency, not your school. Unless you attended HMS or JHMS, nobody cares.

Moreover, radiologists and lawyers aren't comparable. At all. That's like saying that, despite the outsourcing of foreign basketball players into the NBA, Lebron James still has work. Of course he still has work: he's Lebron.

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61 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:41 PM

How does having documents reviewed by someone in India not constitute the illegal practice of law without a US license? If a law license wasn't required, wouldn't Biglaw hire paralegals at $20 an hour to review the same documents?

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62 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:50 PM

Will there finally be a true alliance between the working class and the educated elite on an important economic issue?

I hope so. It's time to face up to the fact that globalization is a terrible, terrible idea that hurts all but a very few at the top and corporate accounting departments.

The U.S. needs to get its collective head out of its ass on this.

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63 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:51 PM

I'm as perplexed as 61, why don't they have to take on debt and go to an ABA accredited school and/or pass a state bar exam??

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64 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:54 PM

53,

that cite is pretty funny

Have You Seen Fat Boy?
Filed under: Fat Boy — Maximus @ 10:19 am

Almost every law firm has at least one. It’s not a managing partner or a librarian or a copy person. Rather, it’s a FATBOY—that vile, disgusting associate or partner that stinks up the halls of the firm and wrecks the careers of those around him. Although the creature may be female, most often it takes the form of a man, a soft fat man with severely lowered testosterone. He can be spotted a mile away. He has a perpetual snarl from a deep sense of personal unhappiness, and he is almost always a litigator but may hold himself out as an “international lawyer” or “white collar criminal lawyer” or something else that is the flavor of the day. FATBOY is unmarried or divorced, in his late forties to early 50’s and bounces from one broken computer dating relationship to another; he treats everyone (especially those sentenced to work with him) like dung and his closest friends are the doorman at his apartment house and the security guard in the lobby of his building that greets him with hello as he waddles in each morning. Does your firm have a Fatboy? Tell us about him.

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65 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:55 PM

22 -- that's exactly what they are saying on www.endofesq.com. The outsourcing of legal work is only one of many market forces ccontributing to the downfall of this profession. ABA is just sitting there with its thumb up its a** letting it happen.

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66 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:55 PM

22 -- that's exactly what they are saying on www.endofesq.com. The outsourcing of legal work is only one of many market forces ccontributing to the downfall of this profession. ABA is just sitting there with its thumb up its a** letting it happen.

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67 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:56 PM

62: Did you read anything I wrote about creative destruction? You're wrong.

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68 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:57 PM

60, this is 54 --

I'm fucking IN medical school, I think I know about medical school. I am fully aware that the t14 cutoff does not exist in medicine. I am also aware that residencies are what matter most for a job. However, there still are good and bad med schools, which often play a role in what kind of residencies you get into. (Top residencies don't want people from med schools in Granada, no matter how great your grades are.)

My point is that people that are in demand for high-levels of skill and prestigious degrees will always be in demand. People in the bottom tier are the ones in jeopardy.

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69 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:01 PM

That site endofesq.com is right on. Did you see the pizza commercial? Im still laughing uncontrollably.

We are going to die.

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70 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:01 PM

That site endofesq.com is right on. Did you see the pizza commercial? Im still laughing uncontrollably.

We are going to die.

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71 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:02 PM

That site endofesq.com is right on. Did you see the pizza commercial? Im still laughing uncontrollably.

We are going to die.

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72 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:02 PM

68 - keep telling yourself that.

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73 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:03 PM

I don't understand what the fuss is about...why would anyone pay $100 when you can pay $50 for the same thing -- pure economics, with a touch of globalization. Also, I don't believe that India or other non-common law/non-English speaking jurisdictions would be the real threat here (note, however, that India's legal system is largely based on English common law because of the long period of British colonial influence...). The threat (if any) would be from Canada, Australia, NZ, etc. When it comes to document review and other general legal work (ie, work that is not jurisdiction specific such as real estate, security interests, civil procedure...), lawyers in these countries can do the same work as Americans, and will do so at half the price. For those working at BigLaw, count the number of Australians or Canadians among you and you'll understand...

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74 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:05 PM

60, that is perhaps the worst parallel reasoning at the end of your post! And I'm not in med school or law school yet!

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75 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:08 PM

62-
Don't fight "the market." Just because 300,000 americans have more money than the next 150,000,000 is right and just. Those 300,000 richest pulled themselves up entirely by their bootstraps and only employ lobbyists to help trickle the wealth down lazy middle to upper middle classers. Why just the other day I took over a perfectly good company with my private equity buddies, saddled it with a mountain of debt, and the feds had the nerve to ask me to pay a 15% capital gains tax. What a bunch of socialists. Why I don't even use roads. Everything I get from the government I pay for by employing really expensive lobbyists. On my way down to Bandon Doons, paid for in part by government subsidies, on my friend's private jet I was taken aback by all this whining about globalization. I have real problems here, such as where to find a good ivory back scratcher. Worse yet I'm all out of hundreds with which to light my cigars.

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76 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:18 PM

I can't tell you how many times a simple contract or copyright case has transformed into giant mess because of a stupid mistake made by outsourced engineers. Stupid, stupid, stupid mistakes.

Almost every time I've been on a case where my client has outsourced engineering, it's ended up costing them a ton of money in resulting legal fees and settlement costs.

I can only imagine how much outsourcing legal work will eventually cost clients.

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77 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:29 PM

"why would anyone pay $100 when you can pay $50 for the same thing" - because it's not supposed to be the same thing -- why did we pay 100k+ for our law degrees if the same thing can be done by others?

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78 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM

Anyone who knows even one iota about litigation knows that all this talk about outsourcing isn't going to sacrifice any biglaw jobs or threaten associate compensation.

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79 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM

It amuses me that many here seem to believe that looking at a piece of paper constitutes the practice of law. Keep in mind that reviewing a document and coding it with key words is not the giving or receiving of legal advice.

oh, and 24: you are hopelessly naive.

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80 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:35 PM

It is estimated that 25% of us legal jobs will be outsourced to Bombay by 2020. There is nothing a fat ny partner likes more than being wisked around Bombay in a ricksaw as he counts his money.

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81 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:35 PM

Clients love to pay $350 an hour for rote litigation doc review and written discovery responses, when they can get the same work done for 10% of that in Bombay. Firms are also always looking at ways to increase overhead -- especially right now.

77 - everyone has a law degree. You're nothing special.

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82 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:38 PM

77 - nice circular reasoning. Can I hire you? If a box full of s--t costs $200,000 it must be valuable!

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83 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:51 PM

The chapter "Bombay Ho! " in End of Esq. The Coming Collpase of the Legal Profession in America explains the outsourcing threat in detail and refers to an opinion from the Bar Association of the City of New York nearly two years old now sanctioning the practice.---outsourcing is here and accelerating .

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84 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:00 PM

Folks, this is already happening.

At Seyfarth, we have been kept up-to-speed regarding the training of Indian attorneys to do - wait for it - first drafts of summary judgment motions. You heard me.

Now, these first drafts will be used (for now) only in single plaintiff employment litigation. As you know, this is an area of law that has virtually disappeared from v100 firms (except for employment boutiques and virtuall boutiques such as Seyfarth) because of higher billables.

But, if this works out in the summary judgment context for Seyfarth, rest assured that Big Law in general will use Indian attorneys for grunt work like doc review.

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85 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:01 PM

Folks, this is already happening.

At Seyfarth, we have been kept up-to-speed regarding the training of Indian attorneys to do - wait for it - first drafts of summary judgment motions. You heard me.

Now, these first drafts will be used (for now) only in single plaintiff employment litigation. As you know, this is an area of law that has virtually disappeared from v100 firms (except for employment boutiques and virtuall boutiques such as Seyfarth) because of higher billables.

But, if this works out in the summary judgment context for Seyfarth, rest assured that Big Law in general will use Indian attorneys for grunt work like doc review.

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86 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:01 PM

Folks, this is already happening.

At Seyfarth, we have been kept up-to-speed regarding the training of Indian attorneys to do - wait for it - first drafts of summary judgment motions. You heard me.

Now, these first drafts will be used (for now) only in single plaintiff employment litigation. As you know, this is an area of law that has virtually disappeared from v100 firms (except for employment boutiques and virtuall boutiques such as Seyfarth) because of higher billables.

But, if this works out in the summary judgment context for Seyfarth, rest assured that Big Law in general will use Indian attorneys for grunt work like doc review.

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87 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:35 PM

I wonder if this is already happening? Is Seyfarth doing anyting WRT outsourcing?

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88 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:50 PM

62:

Globalization helps only the very few at the top? Tell that to the Indian tech support guy that is now making 10 times what he would have been making prior to his employer being hired by your CC company. Or the Chinese factory worker that now makes enough to afford to send his daughter to school, rather than keeping her on the farm his family has been hopelessly working for generations.

Globalization alone is responsible for lifting billions, yes billions, of people out of poverty over the past few decades. Your sorry socialist liberal protectionism only breeds ignorance, dependency and suffering.

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89 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:51 PM

11 - it's not about where one is born, it's about being licensed to practiced law in the States.

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90 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:55 PM

"practice," not "practiced"

- 89

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91 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:31 PM

English speaking? Really? I got a call from "Sarah" last night trying, I think, to sell me something. If she spoke English, you couldn't tell by our conversation. And, yes, I think the same level of education that gives us Indian telemarketers will also give us Indian "lawyers." I am not worried about my job, just insulted that the ABA thinks we can outsource the work to the third world.

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92 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:33 PM

Large law firms will be crushed by this if it happens. The big firm business model is based in large part on large scale litigation with lots of document review done by junior attorneys and more recently staff attorneys.

I'm skeptical it will happen though as the pool of educated literate people in India is still quite small. The country is 40% illiterate and even most Indian college grads are not qualified to do Western level work.

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93 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:34 PM

Don't worry, President Obama will tax big law firms that ship jobs overseas, and provide tax breaks to those who keep our jobs at home!

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94 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:38 PM

At least now we'll have something to do with senior associates - supervising doc review in Bangalore.

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95 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:43 PM

It's not like we need so many proof-readers in our corporate departments anyway. Squandered youth, anyone?

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96 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:45 PM

75, flames work a lot better when you spell things right. Bandon "Doons"? Just proof you don't belong in the 300,000.

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97 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:52 PM

So let me get this straight. Jack Crack, Esq., a NY attorney can't practice in California, but Jugdish Singh (not licensed in any state) can pratice in California?

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98 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:16 PM

96-
pretty sure that 75 is being sarcastic. i think the poster is trying to poke fun at extremely well to do people and the assumption most of us make that there's such a thing as a free market. it may please you to see that I begin each sentence of this post with lower case letters. guess I must not know that sentences begin with upper case letters. no, that's not it. . .more likely this is a blog, not a brief and correcting spelling while missing the joke, poorly written it may be, shows a lack of real intelligence on your part.

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99 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:25 PM

saw this coming years ago. quit my job, got an MBA and now outsource my company's legal work to India. Ha ha...good luck idiots. TTT? every firm is TTT - until you control the workflow, you are nothing more than a b--tch. Just make sure you ask for a severance package when your firm lays you off...talk to the Cadwalader folks.

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100 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:25 PM

saw this coming years ago. quit my job, got an MBA and now outsource my company's legal work to India. Ha ha...good luck idiots. TTT? every firm is TTT - until you control the workflow, you are nothing more than a b--tch. Just make sure you ask for a severance package when your firm lays you off...talk to the Cadwalader folks.

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101 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:26 PM

tsunami? hmmm...interesting choice of words. www.endofesq.com

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102 Posted by guest | Permalink Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:26 PM

tsunami? hmmm...interesting choice of words. www.endofesq.com

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103 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:51 AM

97 you are correct. Your ABA at work.

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104 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:46 AM

Export Laws apply to technical data so it going to be expensive to get your patent appications drafted in New Deli. A Reuben please.

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105 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:33 AM

we are all bitches

look at endofesq.com.

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106 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:12 AM

105: Stop pumping your lame website.

HTH.

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107 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:26 AM

19 and 105

"giving the other 5% a bad name". are you serious? I bet you try slip and falls for Pathmark and Shoprite and write memos about status conferences. I can fee your anger and rage about your career mistake

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108 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 1:05 PM

FUCK.

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109 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 1:42 PM

I don't know about the economics of all this. I think it will probably take just one malpractice suit against one major firm alleging a screw up by Indian doc reviewers to kill this whole program.

Malpractice insurance rates will penalize this practice so heavily that it will eliminate the savings.

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110 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:50 PM

88 - People in third world countries are still poor even if they know work for the Gap or whatever. I'll give it to you that India and China seem to be doing well, but it's impossible to miss the fact that both of those countries employ highly protectionist policies to advance their own national economies.

But more to the point: why should people in the U.S. give up what they have so that some people who don't care one bit about them can get ahead? It's not as if the favor is going to be returned.

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111 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:50 PM

88 - People in third world countries are still poor even if they know work for the Gap or whatever. I'll give it to you that India and China seem to be doing well, but it's impossible to miss the fact that both of those countries employ highly protectionist policies to advance their own national economies.

But more to the point: why should people in the U.S. give up what they have so that some people who don't care one bit about them can get ahead? It's not as if the favor is going to be returned.

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112 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:52 PM

Also will these people in other countries be helping me to pay back all of the money I had to borrow to go to school here in the U.S.?

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113 Posted by guest | Permalink Monday, September 1, 2008 10:40 AM

king & spalding is doing this in its atlanta office - also busy converting regular associates to staff attys to boost profit per partner

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114 Posted by guest | Permalink Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:57 PM

Ello? Yes my nem is Raju Chanal colling in behaf of Watch-tell Liptan...i will be doing paper riting and paper reading phor your margars and accusations dil.

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