FIRST!!!

Not first!

arbah?

Shearman is a sinking ship.

chamesh?

JOHNNY EDWARDS LAWYER OF THE DAY, BABY. AND I MEAN BABY, BABY.

Finally something substantive that I can sink my teeth in. (The other thread was ass, if you know what I mean.)

-Loyola 2 L

sa'bah

Jones Day? Are you kidding me, that place sucks balls.

i want more news on whether firms are giving 100% offers to 2Ls this year. what's the status?

Now I'm just a caveman... Your world frightens and confuses me!

But there's one thing I do know. When a firm fires a bunch of associates, they are not a best law firm to work for.

"Our Top 10 has been stable in recent years -- the only new firm this year is Kirkland & Ellis, which replaces Debevoise at No. 10."

uh you would think that at least dalton would know that k&e replaced covington (and not debevoise) at 10. anyway these two firms flip flop 10 &11 the last few years

How in hell did Cleary get to first place?! The place is such a hell hole that it puts Salusa Secundus to shame.

OMM's now out of the top 20 and Covington's out of the top 10.

Other than that, seems like the only significant movement is Shearman's big drop.

I <3 Cleary.

Jones day has always been ranked somewhat well on vault. A perinial v25. Of course, they also advertise in the newspaper, so make that of what you will.

Links at 5, impressive. Latham is another first thats a good combo: lifestyle + good work (relative, of course).

6 & 9 - im telling you its only yehudim here. but what the hell is sa'bah doing here

At least the rankings always pass the 'smell test' - without a doubt, Wachtell and Cravath are THE most prestigious law firms in the United States. Working at Sullivan isn't good enough for some prestige whores like me, lateral anyone??

These surveys are total crap.
How can they claim to be acurate to the thousanths decimal place? I assume the survey asked people to rank on a scale of 1-10, not 1.000 to 9.999. Didn't anyone learn about significant digits? The most you can take away from this chart is that associates at any of firms 1-20 are pretty much just as satisfied as one another.

Is Munger involved in this survey? I find it hard to believe they wouldn't fall on either list.

Newbie here - why isn't Jacoby & Meyers on this list?

Paul Weiss didn't make the top 20 firms to work for? What a shock! They work their associates to death, bill them for long distance phone calls and have crappy benefits.....

Am I the only person that finds it troublesome that Clifford Chance (arguably the best law firm in the world according to Chambers) scores only .009 higher than Jones Day?

Paul Weiss didn't make the top 20 firms to work for? What a shock! They work their associates to death, bill them for long distance phone calls and have crappy benefits.....

Lat is the ATL idol.

14, too true. The problem is that the other v20 firms are like sieTTTches.

omg, was going to take Covington over KE, but now that they've switched spots, totally taking KE over Covington

more seriously, isn't this like 5th straight year they've switched spots?

Good old Sullivan. In the top three but not pushy enough to make itself number one.

Good old Sullivan, where partners go to die.

Good old Sullivan, where associates work themselves to death.

Good old Sullivan.

Tier1-wlrk, scm
Tier 2-sc, sasmf,dpw,stb
Tier 3-lw, cgsh,wgm
Tier4-ke, cb, dp
Tier5-pwrwg, wc, sa

24 = CC troll

24 here. Just a curious law student.

Somewhere over the rainbow, Bob Link is laughing himself to death....

@ 30: these aren't law schools. You can't put them in tiers

loller at White and Case

yeah, baby...just got my offer...

Where is The Strong Arm, Frank Azar? Or The Law Eagles?

This poll is rigged.

CWT to wiping TTT ass.

OMM is in serious decline.

I'd say Winston and Strawn is the only one on the list that really doesn't belong where it is (except obviously CWT). Everything else seems about right.

I'd say Winston and Strawn is the only one on the list that really doesn't belong where it is (except obviously CWT). Everything else seems about right. Winston should be dropping like a stone...

thank god 39 approves.

Where's the Order of the Coif in all this?

- Loyola 2 L

I agree with 20. If anyone picks a firm purely because of its vault ranking that person is probably crazy or completely lazy. However, the rankings are fun, and they give us a chance to mock one another over where we work.

So when do we get the law firm data for the "Best to Work for List".

I only want to know so that I can calculate the real best to work for list (aka without pro bono and diversity).

Seriously, what does pro bono and diversity have to do with being the best place to work?

21, yes, sorry Justin, it is included, but didn't crack top 50.

44,

So you want to know which firms have partners that personally go around and give you massages and for female associates, half a dozen roses every day?

Get a grip. There are no such firms.

Focus on your billables, son, because obviously you're not too bright, aren't you?

Why didn't Paul Hastings and CWT make the best to work for list? I'm shocked and outraged.

Munging is such a t14 activity. CWT to be munged by Cravath shortly.

- U of Mississippi 2L

Jackson, MS to 73K!

24 is a serious idiot. 30's comment is the most pointless post all week.

Wow. I guess everyone IS a winner at Nixon Peabody.

I predict 44 will leave biglaw within a year (assuming he/she even gets a job). Slip and fall outfits have good hours.

41 - big sale on truck nutz.

44 hasn't grasped the fact that quality of life is nonexistent for associates in BigLaw firms.

Hell, it's nonexistent for drones in insurance defense firms.

-Angry CWT Sixth Year

omg john edwards lat was right.

Nixon Peabody in the Top 10 of best places to work! Everyone's a winner!!!

W&C: the cold offer firm

44

I know of this great Nigerian bank that is giving out money to Americans just for helping opening their email. I think you should invest in it…

14 = Dork.

Cleary's awesome. Rock on.

Regarding Nixon Peabody, I'd like to be a winner in that firm.

Can anyone tell me how I can be a winner?

- Loyola 2 L

49- why are you so angry?

My firm to TTT.

60 - because 49 is in jones day

58 = Cleary troll and incipient Sardaukar legionnaire.

44, diversity depends on the person. Although its been shoved down Gen Y's throats since they came out the womb. So it must be a good thing, right?

Pro bono is irrelevant. Just a way for the firm and its lawyers to try to make themselves feel better about how much money they are making (and for associates scrambling to make their hours when there isn't enough billable work). As far as I know, clients don't give a shit about it. It might get you some sort of plaque at a bar association dinner or something. Once you start working, pay attention to who is doing most of the pro bono at your firm. It can paint an interesting picture depending on the firm.

People who do pro bono = zero chance of partnership.

Nominating JRE as Lawyer of the Day.

When CWT associates see ass, they automatically start wiping it.

Focus on billables, son, not on your personal excretory habits.

- Angry Sixth Year CWT Associate

anyone know when they come out (or already have) with selectivity rankings? (My self-worth is derived from showing my fellow classmates which firms I can pwn)

U ...Crave Swine More... than me.

7, 66, you actually believe the National Enquirer? LOL.

What? Wait a minute? Edwards told ABC that most of this was true? Yeah, like I believe ABC, a subsidiary of a company that owns Mickey Mouse. Maybe they should turn this story into a ride at the Republican version of Fantasyland.

http://pinkdome.com/archives/holiday-card-2006-top.jpg
http://pinkdome.com/archives/holiday-card-2006-top.jpg
http://pinkdome.com/archives/holiday-card-2006-top.jpg
http://pinkdome.com/archives/holiday-card-2006-top.jpg

Happy times!

CWT to Imperial Sarduakar

You guys (and gals, although I suspect most of the egotistical comments here are from dudes) are pathetic and petty. Get a grip

You know, everyone talks about what a giant Mr. Cravath was and the legendary backslapper Mr. Moore was-- but what of Mr. Swaine? Is there room in our national conversation to appreciate his contributions to legal practice?

His national record of 4533.2 annual billable hours will stand longer than Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak. So what if he gamed it at the end by working 104 hours straight leading up to New Year's Eve 1960-1. He did it and then hung out with his sportswriter friends at Toot Shoors to ring in the New Year.

73 = nerdy esoterica awesome post of the day

Just studying this list on its own terms, it's difficult to argue that there's some meaningful difference between a firm that earns a 7.058 score and a firm that earns a 7.043 score, or between the #22-23 firms, separated by 0.009 points.

I agree that as a generalization, the Vault rankings fairly give the gist of how firms are perceived, but these rankings aren't exactly worth chiseling into stone tablets to be read literally.

Gentlemen from my preparatory academy frequently billed thousands of hours to a high profile clientele, servicing their needs and desires, with a hope of obtaining a partnership position in a prestigious legal cadre. I assure you, it was not at all a conspicuous affair.

~Fraternity Lothario.

75 = Not true about Swaine. If you have read any sports history would would know that the 4533.2 is totally inflated and counts hours from the serfs who were under his rotation at the time as well as those of his partner Tad "Hunt" Huntington, IV. Also, Swaine was out there under performance altering substances. People don't talk about Swaine for good reason, and all of us are surprised - truly - that you even brought him up.

There is a rumor going around Reno that Judge Halverson once at life sized chocolate statute of Paul Cravath in under an hour.

20 is right. Also, if you would like to improve your firm's rankings when you are an associate, you can give a score of 0-3 to all of other firms' scores (since you cannot score your own firm).

There is a rumor going around Reno that Judge Halverson once ate life sized chocolate statute of Paul Cravath in under an hour.

There is a rumor going around Reno that Judge Halverson once ate a life sized chocolate statute of Paul Cravath in under an hour.

20 is right. Also, if you would like to improve your firm's rankings when you are an associate, you can give a score of 0-3 to all of other firms' scores (since you cannot score your own firm).

no 77, they're perfect

80 = True! But one must appreciate that Paul Cravath was 5 foot 1 and only ate vegetables. I'm sure your girl could power down two life sized choco Cravath statues.

(Note your use of STATUTE: proof you are either in law school or a 1st year)

why do people slam jones day on this board?

87, the only people who slam jones day are immature autoadmit.com trolls. ask any fortune500 GC if it's a good firm and he or she will say it's up there with the best.

JT is unimpressed with these comments. JT billed 4000 hours at each of the V5 firms--IN THE SAME YEAR.

because they get tired of slamming them in the court room

So the Biggest Drop:
- CWT (down 13)
- Wilson Sonsini (down 10)
- Shearman (down 4, but bit percentage drop

The biggest (positive) movers are:
- Allen Overy
- DLA
- Linklaters
- Quinn

What's up with the Dune references?

92: The fact that you recognized them as such shows that you are as nerdy as they are.

I recognize ass wiping CWT associates talking about chocolate Cravaths all the time. Its easy to spot. Look, there goes another one.

Guys in my high school used to eat chocolate statues of Paul Cravath all the time. It was no big deal.

91 -- - "Shearman (down 4, but bit percentage drop"

A drop from 14 to 19 is down 5. I know you're a lawyer so use your fingers to count it out.

79 = Troll for Mr. Moore. Imagine if Mr. Swaine had access to the performance enhancement substances we have today, like bottled Starbucks drinks mixed with Red Bull and Heineken Light.

I think it comes down to the fact that Cravath and Moore, fighting literally back-to-back beat the tar out of Sullivan, Cromwell, Shearman and Sterling in an infamous 1959 brawl at the 21 Club. Some people thought Swaine had wussed out- but that was unfair. He had stepped out for more pipe tobacco for the three of them, and by the time Tommy the Maitre'D yelled for him to come back to make the fight fair, Swaine had turned the corner.

Sure, today, we might look back and say Swaine should have stayed in contact with his partners. But it's not like they could have texted him to come back. In later years, Cravath and Moore forgave Swaine. Some say that it motivated his phenomenal 1960 run- but he would remain Roger Maris to their Mickey Mantles.

Does Vault rank practice groups? Chambers does. I would definitely recommend a top practice group at a mid-level firm over a second-class practice group at a top firm. M&A might be number 1 at firm X, but if you're doing antitrust, who cares?

Crave Swine Moore. mmmmm swine.

Does Vault rank practice groups? Chambers does. I would definitely recommend a top practice group at a mid-level firm over a second-class practice group at a top firm. M&A might be number 1 at firm X, but if you're doing antitrust, who cares?

People can "slam" Jones Day all they want. Truth is, Jd is a solid kick ass firm that, like any other top ranked firm, you probably don't want across from you in court or on a deal. While other firms are gushing blood and firing associates, JD just had it's best financial 6 months in history (read: JD is rolling in dough). The firm has never fired because of the economy, and 100% of the summers in NY got offers, which includes myself. So go ahead and "bash" JD all you want as you sit, hoping your firm doesn't axe you next year. Period, full stop.

My firm is so prestigious that a good deal of our partners are Wachtell and Cravath ex-pats who left for our greener pastures.

Is Skadden usually 4th? I see it was 4th last year as well. Anyone know about pre-2008 rankings?

101, If JD is so great, why did they take Reavis off the letterhead?

He was the finest Cleveland attorney of his generation. Even Pogue would concede that if you caught him glazing out blankly at the Cuyahoga from his office.

101 = bottom tier at Touro

104-Stop speaking words, you'll make more sense.

warm regards, 101

NNNNeeeeeeerrrrrrrrddddddsssss!!!

And yes, Lat should suck it.

106, it's clear that you have no idea what 104 was getting at. LOL

Jones Day pays below market

108, umm, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get 104's "joke/quip." I just thought it was funnier to say some stupid smart ass comment. Anyway, it's past 530 and i'm done putting in face time. Being a summer is killer work. Off to the beach! See ya Monday ATL!
-Love,
101 (aka 106)

You all cry yourselves to sleep at night (alone), right?

Shouldn't Loyola 2L be "Loyala Alumnus" by now? Or this like 90210 and the OC, where the kids are seniors in high school for like 8 years?

101: Dissemble much?

I'm AMLAW 200 in the midwest. I've encountered most of the top firms over the past 10 years, either as a co-defendant or as a litigation opponent, or in one case after a client fired its Vault 10 counsel and hired us instead. Very few of the top firms have impressed. Williams & Connolly is the notable exception.

p.s. I'm 3-0 against Jones Day, including winning one case against them on a motion to dismiss.

Oh yeah, I think I may have forgotten to say: NNNNEEEEEERRRRRRRRRDDDDDDSSSS!!!!!!!

Why does most of the list of best firms to work for change every year? I can't imagine that Cleary went a mediocre place to work to being the best place to work within a year.

What happened to Shearman??

111 Yes, but on the plus side we sleep on piles of gold.

111 Yes, but on the plus side we sleep on piles of gold.

OK -- CWT associates -- I am no longer accepting applications to wipe my ass.

117, you certainly appear to have your priorities straight. Now go review some documents, you toad!

97 for ATL Idol! L-O-frickin-L.

one-hundred and twenty second!!!

What about Pillsbury? They wipe the asses of no one.

Bing bong bonk. You all bonk. Bonk on, losers!

It seems questionable methodology to rank the "best" firms to work for without taking account of the possibility of getting fired. Is it really better to work for McKee Nelson and have less job security than to work at a whole host of other firms where job security is considerably better?

"The vault" is for law students who have never worked before. Period. Also, Skadden is not "prestigious." They hired everyone from my HLS class who wanted a job there (most of whom were people in the bottom of the class trying to restore self-worth by going to a firm that "the Vault" told them was "prestigious"). I could maybe see how being a partner at a firm like that is prestigious, but reviewing documents with 100 other associates on a "big important case"? No thanks.

126, I'm sorry that you couldn't get a position with Skadden. So sad...

It's a joke that Troutman Sanders never ends up in the "Best 20 Firms to Work For." I've worked for three BigLaw firms (and have numerous friends and colleagues that work for others) and, by far, Troutman treats its associates the best.

SOMEONE POST NEWS ABOUT WHITE AND CASE'S COLD OFFERS TO SA'S. HOW MANY WERE THERE? HOW MANY OFFERS GIVEN?

126: the sting of your skadden ding will dissipate with time.

128 - B/c no one cares about Troutman? We try to stick with real players.

Troutman Sanders wipes my ass too. This is the best day ever.

I can't believe Greenberg Traurig did not make this list. A travesty.

I can understand basing one's firm decision solely on the Vault Top 100 may not be advisable, but how else should a law student go about whittling down a long list of OCI firms to a manageable few?

I can understand basing one's firm decision solely on the Vault Top 100 may not be advisable, but how else should a law student go about whittling down a long list of OCI firms to a manageable few?

20: Apparently you're the one who never learned about sig fig. It's a survey, not a science experiment. If you ask three people to rank a firm and they all say 10, and then ask another three to rank another firm and two say 10 and one says 9, what do you know? The first firm ranks higher than the second. Artificially apply sig fig rules to the data and you lose information: suddenly both firms are "equal," which we know isn't true.

Dear 2Ls,

If you want to work at a "prestigious" big law firm, look at the list of the top 30 or so and interview only at the ones that people DON'T discuss every ten seconds on ATL. There are plenty at all levels and they aren't discussed because the people who work there aren't horrific trolls seeking attention and validation. Most of the posts naming firms are either made by attention whores who want people to think they are important or people who are upset that they didn't get the job they wanted. You can work at a really good firm without having to deal with these kind of people, and it's not too late to stop reading this website altogether.

125 -

Yes, it is.

I don't think most trolls couldn't get jobs at places. Rather I think that they feel the need to validate the fact that they chose firm X over firm Y.

At least that is how those of us from HYS feel. We all could have really had jobs at Skadden but every time we tell somebody not in the law where we work and the only firm they have ever heard of is Skadden we then feel the need to justify our choices.

So in conclusion. I did have offers from a whole host of places but I feel the need to validate the choices that I made since my life isn't all puppies and rainbows.

And so yes, Skadden sucks. As does Latham, Weil, Cleary, and Simpson.

Have you figured out where I work yet?

See, do you want to work with 139? For no reason, we now know he works at a V10 and went to Harvard, Yale, or Stanford [my guess is Stanford because otherwise he would have just said Harvard or Yale]. Despite sharing all of that impressive information, 139 contributed very little to the dialogue, but wants us to know that not working at Skadden has made him insecure because his friends don't immediately jump up and down and clap when they hear the name of his firm.

101- "solid kick ass firm?" Bukkuku self post haste.

My self-esteem is generated by rankings of my law school.

My employment search will be guided by rankings of law firms.

I think that I have everything under control for the next 10-15 years. Would ATL please direct me to analysis of the best retirement homes, most prestigious hearing aids, and top-rated crematoria so I can begin planning?

sardaukar destroyed

It's true though, Skadden made offers to all the students in my class who didn't get offers from any other top 10 firms.

129 -- As far as I know, there weren't any White & Case cold-offers or no-offers. I got my offer, as did all the other summers I've been in touch with lately.

So, stop hatin'.

How is it that all these trolls know where people were ranked in their law school class during OCI and where exactly all of them got offers? I understand that there are graduation honors, but logically you are all either major gossip queens who believe everything anyone tells you about their class rank and firm offers, or you are in the employ of firms competing for candidates hoping somehow to boost your recruiting numbers. What I want to know is, which are you?

Latham and Cleary exchanged places again? Snooze... Almost as interesting as watching G-Town and Northwestern wrestle for T14.

Cahill Gordon's absence from the Top 50 is a travesty.

Georgetown belongs in the 20-23 tier. Seriously, meet their recent grads.

So I guess we will have T24 to fit them in.

139, um why exactly do you feel the need to validate your choice not to go to Skadden? Are you surrounded by people who are so shallow as to judge a person's importance by a survey's annual ranking of their office? Do you also buy food from the most prestigious fruit farms and make sure to tell people about it?

The next time you meet a software programmer who works at a small unknown shop, or a petroleum engineer who works at a place most people haven't heard of such as Schlumberger, ask yourself if they're more "prestigious" if they instead worked at Microsoft or Exxon.

Gotta go back to origin of the Skadden not prestigious debate from 126. Let me ask you something 126, how many big deals did you work on and in how many of those was Skadden not involved. You may not like the firm for whatever reason but come on, not prestigious (i.e having prestige defined as widely recognized prominence, distinction, or importance-- other definitions available at websters).

Poor 101. So rosy the big firm life when you are a summer ain't it. Guess what, in two years you will be busting your ass to pay for all the summer festivities. Btw, I really don't want JS across the table because its embarrassing to see so much incompetence at times, though I normally don't mind it—it makes my life easy.

150, I think software engineers might be one of the only profession more stratified than we are.

There the world isn't distributed into groups of 10, it is groups of one or two.

For prestige you have:

T1: Google, Facebook
T2: Whatever the hot startups happen to be
T3: Microsoft
T4: Everything else
T5: EA
T6: Yahoo

Also stratified: Strategy Consulting firms:

1. McKinsey
2. BCG
3. Bain & Co.

The rest are TTT.

Noooooo - WilmerHale fell from 15 to 17? A TRAVESTY!

I got an award recognizing my pro bono service a few days before I got laid off. Shit you not.

What is the basis for these ratings? These appear to be written by people who are out of touch with reality. If you have been practicing long enough, you know that many of these firms of BIG issues in terms of client retention, health of the firm, general morale. Covington and MoFo are two examples. If it is so great, then why to I keep seeing resumes for partners with nice books of business seeking to lateral and hearing in lateral interviews that they are leaving because the firms aren't what they used to be. These rankings appear to lag behind reality. Unless partners are completing questionnaires, take this with a grain of salt.

Thank you, legacy Dewey partners, for transforming a prestigious firm in a shit-hole.
How in the world did you think that (i) merging with Orrick was a good idea, and (ii) rebound-merging with LeBoeuf was a good idea. You have destroyed the prestige that Dewey had.
If this ranking is not a wake up call on how the rest of the world is looking at us, it means that you have completely surrendered power to Steve Davis and his clowns.
I am taking my T-14 law degree to some place where I don't have to share office space with TTT.

Anybody actually work at cleary here? why such a good work environment reputation?

Cleary good work environment rep comes from training that starts from the moment you walk in the door, exposure to work that is complex and high profile and knowing you can work anywhere you want if you decide to leave. It might be stressful, but silver lining is really apparent. If you can see it from that perspective and have that kind of ambition, it is better than the other presige firms.

Yeah, sure. Do you really believe that?

yes. if you measure work environment by leaving at 7, not working weekends, etc, then it is not for you. But that is not everyone's standard and relatively speaking, when compared to the prestige list, it is better. I know a lot of people there and this view seems uniform among them. Friends at Davis are the only ones at NY firms that express a similar view.

Agreed as to Cleary. Friends at D&P, DPW, and Latham say the same, or at least more than elsewhere in NY.

Fook prestige - give me approx. equal pay and a life. There is such a thing.

164, that is the point. This is not a one-size-fits-all game. You take the job you get, but your needs/desires will evolve. Some will stay at places like Cleary and thrive. Others will decide that something else matters and pick firms like Davis Wright, Patterson Belknap, etc. People that want prestige, equal pay and less work aren't going to find it at any big NY firm or a firm striving to compete at that level (read Mayer, McDermott, Kirkland, Sidley, etc) unless you are a tax attorney. Eventually, people will choose to stay at a sweatshop or choose a place that still gives you work that satisfies at less personal cost. It is not a question good/bad. Just different.

160, you can't work anywhere you want after you leave cleary. I mean, cleary is a great firm, but that's just not true.

Part of this is client driven. If you work at a firm that does a ton of high profile work, especially for banks, the expectation is that you will be available when the client needs you. These means 2 a.m. or Sunday at 8 a.m. No rest for the weary when the client demands coverage and is more than willing to pay for it. Litigation stinks because of the long hours, but corporate can be worse because deals pop up unexpectedly (Friday at 5, when the banker and his client come off the golf course with a deal that requires a term sheet by Saturday or December 24th when tax concerns say you need to close by the 31st). If you want to play with the big boys, they own you. So you need to like it.

166, You are taking me too literally. If you had the credentials to get hired at Cleary and you got the experience that a normal associate gets at that firm, you will have options available to you that a majority of other candidates will not. You will get a look when others might not. Cleary is not the only firm that provides this leg up, but all else being equal, you are sitting pretty. My point is more to say that getting experience at Cleary is less painful than getting it at Skadden or worse, at CWT or Shearman, etc.

153, the whole point is that in your T2 ("startups") you don't have any specific names that most laymen know about, as compared to the well known names.

Choosing (or even sadder, claiming that you got an offer but declined it) Skadden because Vault thinks it's "prestigious" and laymen have heard of the name is like a software programmer choosing to work at Microsoft or Yahoo.

168 - 166 here. I take your point; but WLRK/CSM might give opportunities cleary doesn't that would cause people to chose them despite the lifestyle. Also, for what it's worth, the associates I know who seem most pleased about their jobs are, believe it or not, at skadden.

So 170, I guess the point is that there are happy people and misserable people at every firm. Which camp you fall into (and how you respond to any of these satisfaction/prestige surveys) depends on the gig you have and what you want.

Jones Day may have some good offices, but NY is a joke. Why? Because the pay system. It isn't transparent and is below market. That is why the NY office gets such crappy summer associates. It is the only firm I can think of in NY where a student that isn't on law review, isn’t in the top 25% of his/her class, and attends a school that is outside of the top 40 schools -- and not even a local university mind you -- can land a job. The silver lining? Subpar students wanting to claim they work at a "prestigious" New York firm -- don't worry, non-lawyers won't know any better -- have a place that will hire them!

The Quarles & Brady entry is a joke, right? "Serving the needs of a broad range of clients, locally, nationally and internationally, from offices in Wisconsin, Florida, Phoenix and Illinois."

Shearman continues to slip and CWT falls back into place. They'll both be down with Chadbourne by the end of the decade.

157: Your comment shows you have no idea what you're talking about, at least with regard to Covington. Covington is a Amlaw A List firm that does not compensate by "eat what you kill," and whose midlevel associate satsifaction rank went from 60 something to thirty something in one year. If there are any partners out there looking to leave, they probably don't belong at the firm in the first place.

165: I'm afraid firms like Sidley and Kirkland aren't merely "trying" to compete at the Cleary/Davis Polk level - they're competing, and, in some instances, out-competing. Kirkland's litigators are world-class and, at that, some of the highest billing attorneys in New York. Sidley's capital markets groups and its hedge fund group (which chambers just annointed group of the year) quite simlply run circles around all the New York shops. All that on top of being headquartered in a better city, a place where 160K goes twice as far.

165: I'm afraid firms like Sidley and Kirkland aren't merely "trying" to compete at the Cleary/Davis Polk level - they're competing, and, in some instances, out-competing. Kirkland's litigators are world-class and, at that, some of the highest billing attorneys in New York. Sidley's capital markets groups and its hedge fund group (which chambers just annointed group of the year) quite simlply run circles around all the New York shops. All that on top of being headquartered in a better city, a place where 160K goes twice as far.

165: I'm afraid firms like Sidley and Kirkland aren't merely "trying" to compete at the Cleary/Davis Polk level - they're competing, and, in some instances, out-competing. Kirkland's litigators are world-class and, at that, some of the highest billing attorneys in New York. Sidley's capital markets groups and its hedge fund group (which chambers just annointed group of the year) quite simlply run circles around all the New York shops. All that on top of being headquartered in a better city, a place where 160K goes twice as far.

The rankings are fun - just like any "Top 50" list. But if you are considering working for one of these firms, there are better ways to choose, unless you really have no idea of what kind of work you want to do.

What is the culture of the specific office you are considering? SF or LA is likely to be different from NY. Is your office the main office or an outpost?

Every big firm will claim to have a practice in every major area, but you need to find out if they are really strong in the areas you are interested in, or if it is just window dressing.

If there is a practice area you are interested in, and the firm seems to be strong in that area, find out the reputation of the firms' partners in that area. Are they good to work for? Do they train you or just yell at you? Are they up-and-coming or about to retire? Do you get any client contact? What kind of work are they doing, and what kind are they trying to attract?

Figuring this out takes more effort than just signing up for OCIs, but if you do your homework and legwork, you will also improve your odds of getting a position, when it is clear to the interviewer that you actually understand their practice and how you can fit into it.

But hey, if you really don't know what you want to do, having a prestigious firm name on your resume can help you get the next job after you figure out what you want to do.

Mouth breathers,

There is no contradiction between:
- a firm being prestigious in the work that it gets (hey Skadden!) and
- a firm being prestigious in how hard it is to get a job there (sorry Skadden...)

Stop arguing

So 179, the questions you say to ask are all reasonable and right, and just the questions they tell us to ask. As a 2L about to head into OCI, though, how should I do this legwork? Really, break it down to baby steps -- how, besides reading ATL comments, am I to learn what the culture of a firm is? Should I be talking to other 2Ls? 3Ls? Career office folk? Similarly, while Chambers might tell me if a group is outstanding, who's going to tell me if a group is good enough? Where do I go to find what group strengths are? How do I find out about the nature of the training or the QOL there?
Thanks in advance...

I kind of disagree with 179. Law firms are kind of like law schools, for the most part you're best off going to the best firm you can get into. The practice of law sucks pretty much everywhere and you'll be ready to leave after 4 years. When you do, you're not going to have a reputation or clients of your own. All you'll have is the name of the firm on your resume. And alumni of those top firms are esspecially coveted.

That said, don't ignore the reputation of a firm inside of the market you actually want to work in. Also keep in mind that cultures and practices can vary a lot accross different offices and practice area inside of the same firm.

181: take reports of any given firm's "culture" with a grain of salt (i.e., QOL may be a little better at some places, but not by much); ignore other 2L's as to firms and the recruiting process; speak with 3L's who have summered at firms at which you land call-backs (but bear in mind that they have experienced the summer version of their firms); believe it or not, read the (reasonable) comments on here (Lat will likely breakdown the Vault as he did last year); and Chambers does matter, as it provides an indication of the quality and quantity of work the partners at a firm bring in, which eventually translates into the work you'll do (i.e., shit runs down hill, so it's best if the shit begins as interestingly and as profitably as possible). And of course, don't interview anywhere that has laid off associates during this (or the previous) downturn.

175: Absolutely correct about Covington. Covington is probably the best combination of "prestige" firm and good work environment of nearly anywhere in Top 15. The partners--in DC at least--are courteous almost to a fault, the place empties out about 7 p.m. and the place just generally seems happy. People smile in the elevators and hold doors for one another. Seems corny but you can tell alot about a place from little things like that.

Please don't stop posting 142.

184 - I thought it was a coat manufacturer -- are you sure you know what you're talking about?

McKee fired all their unhappy lawyers.

183: wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. That's what people who work at places like Cravath, Sullivan and CWT are taught. Cleary people know better.

I remember in law school how all of the people going to Cleary were convinced it was this intellectual place. Funny thing is that they work on the same deals as supposedly lowbrow places like Skadden and Weil, so where is the intellectualism? People who say you should take quality of life arguments with a grain of salt are right. If you work in M&A, for example, you will be working long and unpredictable hours, period. Cleary M&A associates are not going home at 7:00 every night and skipping work on the weekends to read Chaucer. As for Covington, what I hear is that their corporate practice is weak and the top litigation partners understand that they could make a lot more if they were coupled with a strong corporate group. I would not be surprised to see Covington merge with another firm to achieve this as did Wilmer Hale.

viva cadwaladersean

184, 175 -- The resumes I have seen are for partners with some serious books. So if they shouldn't be there, then who should? Their complaint: too much support for future law school faculty candidates and not enough for rainmakers. Covington has a ton of older partners that cannot last forever (FDA,.. ), and you cannot compete financially for top replacement talent. Here is a test of Cov's power to keep attracting talent -- when Tom B. leaves Justice, does he come back to Cov, follow Rick R. or Bobby B, or join H&S, C&M, etc.? The latter are prepared to pay him ... a lot and I suspect Cov lacks the pockets to compete. So I am pretty sure I do know what I am talking about.

181 - 179 here. You need to do the prep work before the OCI, and don't rely upon other law students. That tends to be a closed loop, with rumors/gossip endlessly circulating. Find some reputable attorneys in the area of practice that you are interested in, but that for some reason you don't want to work for (maybe they are a solo, or in another city), and ask them for an informational interview. (You can get their name from a professor, especially an adjunct, or from Chambers, or an article they wrote.) Ask them about their practice, what they like, don't like, etc. And finally, don't forget to ask them the following: who are the other lawyers in their area that they respect the most, or think are the best; who else they think would be good for you to talk to; and what firm they think would be the best to work for and why. Repeat this as many times as you can. You will meet a bunch of attorneys, get a bunch of names, and start getting a feel for who the attorneys respect and why. You'll learn a lot and make good contacts.

181 - 179 here. You need to do the prep work before the OCI, and don't rely upon other law students. That tends to be a closed loop, with rumors/gossip endlessly circulating. Find some reputable attorneys in the area of practice that you are interested in, but that for some reason you don't want to work for (maybe they are a solo, or in another city), and ask them for an informational interview. (You can get their name from a professor, especially an adjunct, or from Chambers, or an article they wrote.) Ask them about their practice, what they like, don't like, etc. And finally, don't forget to ask them the following: who are the other lawyers in their area that they respect the most, or think are the best; who else they think would be good for you to talk to; and what firm they think would be the best to work for and why. Repeat this as many times as you can. You will meet a bunch of attorneys, get a bunch of names, and start getting a feel for who the attorneys respect and why. You'll learn a lot and make good contacts.

Anyone have access to, and able to post, the NY VAULT rankings -- they were released today