MAN IM FIRST AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!1

im THE KING OF FIRSTS YALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

150 @ BCG, Canada

What's the point of probono - if you want to do probono, go work at a public defender's office or something.

Probono = leftist hippies. Now get back to making money.

Elie - That first paragraph is poorly written, and the joke is not clear. Just because you have won ATL Idol does not mean the judging stops.

I've now worked at two large firms (V10 and V50) and both did not limit at all the number of probono hours that count towards total billables. If you spent 600 hours on probono in one year, it's fine. It seems stingy to max it out at 50.

My old law firm used to have a policy crediting 100 pro bono hours to billable hours. At the time, that was considered low. Eventually, the firm scrapped the policy, and I understand that it credits 0 pro bono hours but expects pro bono work to be performed by associates, with a mandatory minimum of 2000 billable hours.

Does working on one's own case pro se count as pro-bono? After all one would be doing the work for free.

My firm (V-20) counts all PB hours toward billables. I thought this was the trend at most firms in the 21st century.

I'm a student, not as associate and I have serious question about pro bono. Do associates actually want pro bono to count towards billables because it is doing good, fulfilling work or do they want it to count because doing pro bono work is easier than doc review or whatever tedious activities that normally qualify?

I am at a V50 firm that does not limit at all the number of pro bono hours that count towards the minimum billing requirement. However, I think that is a bad business decision. In a slow period, many associates are racking up pro bono hours just to keep their jobs, and perhaps meet the thresholds for bonuses, and that just doesn't make any business sense at all.

Personally, I think that only 100 or so should count towards the minimum billing requirement but that all pro bono hours should be given billable hour credit. My firm has a 1900 minimum. My plan would mean that you would have to do 1800 for paying clients to meet the minimum and stay bonus-eligible but that if you did the 1800 for paying clients, all 600 of your pro bono hours would count towards your billables and put you at 2400 for the year and get you a much larger bonus.
Just a suggestion.

Associates who think they can do a lot of pro bono and make partner are idiots.

50 hours of pro bono is a joke - I guess it's better than nothing, but you _might_ be able to take care of an asylum case in that time, nothing more. Certainly no meaningful litigation.

#11, I'm in finance and the only thing I've ever done in this job that made me feel good about myself was a pro-bono litigation case. It was a lot harder than my normal work (and I'm sure would have been helpful to my development if I were in litigation), but it actually made me excited to go into the office in the morning. A couple of years (heck, months) into your first Biglaw associate gig, you'll realize how important that is.

WHERE'S THE BEEF?

God damn, if you want to do pro bono so badly, go do that as your job. Why the hell should the firm pay you to work for free? That's what pro bono credit is.

Jesus. Wiley should be ashamed for bowing to this crap.

F**k pro bono.

Pro bono counts 1:1, no limits.

11 - they want it to count because most firms expect you to do pro-bono bc it's good for their reputation and it's a pain when you're expected to do that work and then have it not even count towards your billables.

Why are lawyers and ATL commentators so quick to critique others' writing? I know that law school professors encourage the copy-editing instinct, but it doesn't have to carry over to blogging posts.

Only 50? That's weak.

I get 1:1 at my firm. No limits.

how prestigious is this firm?

What is the most prestigious type of pro bono case?

how prestigious is this firm?

I am anti Bono. I hate U2 so much that I feel faint.

Paul Hastings counts all pro bono hours towards your billables.

100 hours counts towards billables and firm actively seeks participation in pro bono.

I tell all my prospective pro-bono clients to go out and get a real job so that you can afford to pay me like everyone else.

I heard that Wiley's Bratislava office always counted pro bono hours 1:1. I guess this policy change will have a big impact there.

50 pro bono hours was the market a few years ago -- most now allow unlimited pro bono to count towards billables, but you obviously have to use some discretion in testing that on an annual basis

Wiley is a very prestigious firm. 50 is a bit low, my firm has a 20 hour requirement, but no limit on the credit and 1:1 billable equivalent. You can't ever determine when you take on a pro bono case how long it will take you...you may be able to resolve it in 10 hours, or it may take 100.

Big Texas firms were giving 50 hours pro bono credit back in the early 2000s. At the same time I was interviewing with Miami firms and they all looked at me like I was nuts for asking about pro bono. Back here in Texas, though, at a V55 firm, you get full credit for all your pro bono hours (although permission is officially required for anything over 150 hours, it's always granted).

It's a difficult balance. I've worked at two firms, both V30. At my old firm, we had a 50 hour max. A partner I did a lot of work for all but forced me to work on a PB matter with him. Over the course of the year, it went over 50 hours, but I could only count 50. I was kind of pissed.

At my current firm, we have no PB limits, and work was slow early in the year. As a result, associates starting doing PB to boost their hours. It's not entirely bad from the firm's perspective, because PB can result in some good experience and training, and it's better to have associates do that rather than nothing. But, it's sort of gaming the system in a way. However, I would doubt anyone bills 600 hours to PB -- everyone knows you have to bill client hours if you want to advance.

Personally, I think PB should count toward making your hours, but not toward any bonus level above that threshold. It just doesn't make sense to pay someone a 100k bonus when they only did the minimum requirement (or even less) of client billables.

I'll point out that not everyone WANTS to do pro bono. In fact, the pro bono projects I've been added to (by partners with a particular relationship with the organization) have turned out to be 1) a HUGE time commitment; 2) far more complicated than the day-in-day-out corporate work I'm used to doing; and 3) largely blackholes.

Any of the idiots commenting that "if you want to do pro bono go work at the public defender's office" probably DO NOT work in big law. Pro bono projects are almost always originated from the pet project of some partner.

I'll also point out that pro bono projects have been used by our litigation group as a good way to have new litigators cut their teeth on all kinds of things: deposition, discovery, trial, etc. The firm knows this and encourages it because it acts as 1) training; 2) acts as a positive in law firm reviews; and 3) a recruiting tool.

I believe there is some economic value as well - can't the firm deduct the theoretical cost of the hours spent from their income for tax purposes?

GULLLLLLLLLLLLCCC!!!!!!!!

i hate pro bono. most of the time clients aren't completely up front with you and aren't grateful, particularly if litigation doesn't go the way they want.

my firm: PB hours up to 6% of your billables automatically count; beyond that, your practice group leader's go-ahead is needed, but has never been withheld. i'm up against my 6% now, and still have a fed circuit argument coming up.

I call bullshit on 28. Wiley's Bratislava office NEVER counted pro bono hours - probably because none of the attorneys there were interested in doing that kind of work.

Which firms do 1:1 unlimited pro bono credit? That's awesome.

Mine caps out at 150. I'm on a large pro bono case that's going to take me well over that, and its going to be a bit of a struggle to make bonus because of it. And its not like I can just drop off the case when I hit 150.

I like what I'm doing, but it burns me a little to hear the firm tout their commitment to pro bono, then assign you to a huge pro bono case that makes it impossible to take on enough paying work, and then refuse to give you a bonus because of it.

39: You'e an idiot. The firm's "commitment" to pro bono exists only in theory and exsits as lip service so that they don't look like the greed b*stards that they are.

Also, what type of business pays bonus for bringing in LESS revenue.

16 - because its an ethical duty of being a lawyer... its not just a perk to associates to make them feel good.

LOL @ 41

At Weil there's a 50 pro bono hour MINIMUM not maximum. The firm actively encourages every associate to give at least 50 pro bono hours per year and sends reminders to associates who are under 10. There is no maximum and 100% of the hours count toward bonuses.

Some firms care more about pro-bono hours than maximizing their PPP.

19 - this is a blog, where you have to read what is written. Are you similarly appalled when, at a restaurant, your fellow diner states that his or her meal was no good?

While 50 is still pretty sucky it is exactly 50 times better than zero credit.

guuuuuuLLLLLLLLLCCCCCCCC!!!!

No firm cares more about pro bono than PPP. Pro bono is promoted at many top biglaw shops because it is a good publicity tool, a good recruiting tool, and a way for associates to learn the lawyering skills that the partners are too busy/don't care about teaching them.

Call me when WIley offers a market ($275,000 or $300,000) SCt starting bonus. Otherwise, boring.

Goodwin Procter = 1:1 pro-bono credit. And that's the only way to do it, if you are going to give any credit at all. Otherwise, what are associates supposed to do on cases which plainly require hundreds of hours of work because you're going to trial or something like that? You're supposed to just volunteer hundreds of hours of time for no credit whatsoever? Of course not. For billing purporses, most decent firms should (and do) treat pro-bono work (at least somewhat) similar to other work. Any firm that doesn't isn't even bothering to pretend that it cares about pro-bono.

40 -
Your attack is uncalled for.

First of all, the implication that no reasonable firm would pay a bonus for bringing in less revenue is blatantly false. All of the firms that give unlimited 1:1 credit for pro bono work pay bonuses to associates regardless of how much of their work is revenue generating. My post asked about precisely those firms, and they have been highlighted by a number of other commenters. Based on the comments, at least one of them is a very prestigious and profitable firm.

Second, in my case, we are talking about firm work, work that has been assigned to me and that I have little option to refuse. I have not chosen to generate less revenue. I did not seek this case out, I simply accepted the assignment because I had time available at the time, and I was told it was important to the firm. So, we have a situation where the firm says this is an important use of our associates time, but we won't give them much credit for doing it.

I never claimed unfair surprise. I understood the policy before I came to the firm. I simply suggested that the situation is frustrating.

So, piss off, dipshit.

Respectfully,
39

In fact, in a perverse way, giving credit for 50 hours max may be worse than giving credit for 0 hours. At least if you get no credit, you know better than to embark on pro bono work. However, if you get some credit, you may be tempted to sign onto pro bono cases ... only to then short-change your clients when your hour maximum is met.

- 49

Sutherland gives 1:1 credit, no limit.

Capping pro bono credit at 50 is weak. That's less than what an associate can bill in a week. Wiley has the capacity to do so much more. There's plenty of need in DC. Wiley gets cheap nickel-and-diming on these kind of things and begins to look rinky-dink, out of the big leagues. Wiley has a complex about being a small-yet-big firm, and this is the perfect example of how some of its "generous" "benefits" go oh-so-wrong. Too little to late, way behind the times. Dick Wiley is rather old-school, so this is to be expected.

Wiley is saying that it will credit up to 50 hours of pro bono against the minimum billable amount. So, if they require 1900 billable hours, 50 hours of those can be from pro bono projects.

What is NOT in the post is whether additional pro bono hours will be counted towards bonus after the minimum has been met. I would hope that once an associate meets their minimum billable hours requirement (ex: 1900), they can get credit towards their total hours for additional pro bono hours. Some firms (like mine) cap bonus credit for pro bono to 200 hours total (50 towards the minimum hours requirement, and 150 that can count after you make hours).

White & Case recently modified its 1:1 policy to a 200 hour cap. I think it's fair and always thought billing 500+ hours to pro bono was a bit ridiculous. At some point you should just go into public interest.

I can't believe how some of you (not all) can be so cold about pro-bono. As attorney's we have an obligation to help those that need our help. If you are so high on your golden horses and thnink probono is for leftists or hippies, you my firend lack that sort of ambition that makes you not only a better attorney, but a better person.

FYI: MoFo has no limit on probono hours.

Seyfarth Shaw = 200

36: How does that behavior differ from that of paying litigation clients?

Only in the law could businesses actually compete against one another to see which firm lets their employees give away the most product and then point to that ability as some measure of success. That's completely backwards.

For all posters who have the audacity to tell other lawyers that it is their duty as lawyers to do pro-bono, why does your kind insist on preaching this mantra? I sell time and advice. How am I somehow obligated to give that product away because there is a need for it by those who cannot afford it?

58 -
Are you a lawyer? You should check the applicable rules of professional responsibility. It's not preaching a mantra. It's a legal fact - lawyers have a legal obligation to do pro bono work. (granted its unenforceable, but its there in the law)
If you are a lawyer (in any jurisdiction that I know of), you took on that obligation when you applied and were admitted to the bar.

16 = Wiley partner.

59, yes I am a lawyer. As far as I know, even the Model Rules do not go so far as to make pro-bono a requirement. The operative word used in the Rule 6.1 is "should" not "shall". And yes, the professional conduct rules of my jurisdiction (which fails to even include a version of 6.1) contains a preamble which waxes rhapsodic about all sorts of amorphous and vague obligations of lawyers to provide uncompensated services. But, as you pointed out, this preamble does not have the force of law. Nor do I recall the oath containing any promise to provide such services. So if it is not law, what is it? A bunch of lawyers, the state supreme court, telling me what I should do.

You contradict yourself when you say I have a legal (i.e. professional) obligation to provide pro bono services, but then say that obligation is unenforceable. Can't have it both ways.

I work at a small law firm. What's pro bono? I've never done it.

I think it's absurd that lawyers even have a "proessionaly responsibility" to do pro bono. Why are we special? CPA's don't have to do taxes for poor people for free. MBA's don't have to do their BS for free. Plumbers are not required to fix poor people's plumbing for free.

62, get ready for the predictable "but law is a learned profession, not a trade or business enterprise" comments. Too bad that is a completely outdated line of thinking. Went out the window with skyrocketing law school tuition, six figure debt loads, $160,000 starting salaries and 2200 billable hours per year.

MWE 60 hours unless you get approval to go over.

I actually got assigned to a pro bono project at my last firm that ended up taking up hundreds of hours of time (death penalty case). I'd have been furious if the hours didn't count toward my minimum.

PBMA. As an F15 in house, all I can say is that this thread gives me a lot of leverage next time one of my V100 relationship partners calls to tell me that s/he "has" to raise rates. If a firm's lawyers are spending hours on pro bono, that's fine with me, but "pro bono" doesn't mean "jack up the paying clients' rates" to compensate for what the do-gooder junior associates aren't contributing toward the firm's bottom line. Law is a service business. To the extent that firms give away the only "product" they have to sell, their employees' time, for "free", that means that their paying clients are shelling out more than they need to be. Let lawyers write checks out of their own accounts to charities and legal services organizations if they want to make themselves and their associates feel better about having to come in every day to do my bidding.

Now I'll make sure to ask how many "pro bono" hours his/her firm counts toward what its associates are expected to bill and suggest lowering those before asking me to give up more of my shareholders' money. Oh, and I'll also be sure to ask him/her to make sure the lawyers doing this pro bono work aren't taking positions that are adversarial to my client's best interests.

>Oh, and I'll also be sure to ask him/her to make sure the lawyers doing this pro bono work aren't taking positions that are adversarial to my client's best interests.

Hey, dipshit, it's called a conflicts check.

V5. No minimum billables req. No maximum on pro bono. The firm "expects" a MINIMUM of 5% of each attorney's time (including partners) should be spent on pro bono.

Pro Bono is for hippies

Pro bono is not for everyone, but my guess is 80% of lawyers want to improve. Pro bono is for them. And every (big) firm's office should have someone solely devoted to facilitating it. There is too much risk otherwise, regardless of conflicts procedures.