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I still can't get over Space Law... I mean really?

Professional Responsibility is dumb, thats why Columbia is great because it is only a week there...

A Concordance class would be much more useful to me right now.

1, congratulations. I guess I missed the part about first person to post gets a prize. Way to be proud about nothing.

I love that south park clip

6, how do you know he doesn't get a prize?

first?

Solid post by Sophist

I am the pack leader! [I say as my officemate angrily looks over her shoulder]

Conflicts seemed like a pretty solid class, although I did not take it. A litigator I know recently pulled a pretty sharp move that he told me involved some sort of conflict of law issue.

Only an honorable mention for Elements...??

Where's the reference to elements?

Does the dog whisperer offer a CLE course?

Fordham Law has a class called business essentials for the corporate lawyer (or something similar). 5 weeks in and the class still hadn't moved past the future value of money. WORTHLESS!!!

-zeus

14-- right before the jump

Winner for using SouthPark and Cesar Milan.

I can attest that a windowless office in Bermuda isn't too exciting... But at least my hotel had a great view.... right?

17: I jumped. I don't see it.

Pace Law has a class called "Walking for Dummies." I thought that was pretty worthless.

After reading that suit thread, I decided to wear the following:

1. Brown loafers.

2. Khaki dress pants.

3. Brown belt, with a ROCK STAR buckle.

4. Tweed jacket. White dress shirt underneath. No tie.

5. Monocle.

Looking good?

Nice, 22. Just make sure you're rocking some chest hair and you'll be good to go. And make sure to mention that you took "Walking for Dummies" while at Pace.

Conflict of Laws is a weird class, but it's not useless.

Hee hee. Dog Whisperer.

You go to Brooklyn #3?

22 -- I suggest you wear a tie--namely, an ascot.

Domeeenate! Be the pack leeder!

16, perhaps a better questions is why Fordham student's still couldn't understand the time value of money after five weeks?

Agree with the others who feel that Conflict of Laws is not a useless class. It comes up a lot in litigation, and it's useful to have a grounding in it - I've heard more than one federal judge say it's the most important course to take in law school.

Good call on the replacement classes though. And Space Law is really just International Law with even less law and more pondering about the future.

The only substantive part of Space Law is insurance law regarding commercial satellites (in case the rocket blows up or the satellite doesn't function correctly once in space). Really takes a really cool sounding subject and make it intensely boring.

Kind of like the law in general.

Nice use of a direct sponsor clip - anyone notice the Season 11 banner ad? Way to please your sponsors and your audience. Well done Sophist.

"What is the Most Worthless Class You Could Have Avoided?"

Trick question. All classes in law school were worthless.

Admiralty anyone?

if only more Goergians had taken international law, they would be able to convince the Russians to leave.

I agree with the posters regarding Conflicts. I didn't take it and wish I had.

35: the post of the day, if not the century. Thank you for reminding us of the artificiality of legal issues. If the apocalypse came tomorrow, nobody would care about any of this.

33: Yeah you're right; contracts, property, corporations, all that shit was worthless. You, in your god-given ability, started work at your firm with all the legal knowledge that you needed to know and only needed to be shown where the copy machine was and where your secretary sat.

38: wrong preposition. It's "with your god-given ability."

Since when did they start letting women into law school? Must be a TTT thing.

37: "If the apocalypse came tomorrow, nobody would care about any of this." What does that mean? If the apocalypse came tommorow, nobody would care about anybody's profession, whether you were a banker, engineer, baker, truck driver. What point were you getting at?

11: You have an officemate?

35: You have it all wrong. The Georgians just need to understand what they did wrong to the Russians. Then the healing can begin.

41: incorrect. People would still be interested in doctors and a few other professions.

My point is that legal reasoning and the legal system are contrivances: there is nothing innate about them in the least, and Russia can maul Georgia all they want without some international law wonk to stop them. As my old professor used to say, "This is bull. Highly elaborate bull, yes. Very complicated bull, yes. But bull."

Professional Responsibility is required. But, if by "could have avoided," you mean "avoided attending the lectures or listening to any class discussion," the placement is accurate.

meh, an uninspired effort. F&D is looking better and better.

I love this line: "This is bull. Highly elaborate bull, yes. Very complicated bull, yes. But bull."
I need to work it into more conversations

...but still not GOOD...

Re Space Law, is there criminal law in space? If so, whose jurisdiction? If an astronaut on the ISS goes batshit and hacks apart his colleague (who may or may not be a citizen of the same country) in a rage, who prosecutes, and under whose law?

Real lawyers don't care about law school classes. Bad post. Sophist will dumb it down and talk about random law school crap, not the important legal gossip of the day. Trust me law students!

I disagree. If a tort is committed by a passenger in a orbital launch tour vehicle, who has jurisdiction?

Country of origin, international courts, or depends on over whose territory the tort is committed? Or does jurisdiction end 12 miles above land? What is the "flag" of the launch vehicle? Does maritime law apply? Does aviation?

OK, Conflicts was my favorite class in law school, but it was definitely worthless. As a litigator I've never come across a conflicts question that I couldn't resolve in 5 minutes. Between parties getting smarter and using more choice of law clauses and the rarity of crazy multi-state torts, conflicts just doesn't show up much in the real world.

I made it through 2 days of Dula's Space Law class and I agree. It was pretty terrible.

Rules, boundaries, limitations. Pretty much sums up the law right there.

And oh, it's "Who throws a shoe, honestly?", not "really?". Honestly.

Yawn...I'm not sure this idea had enough material for one post, let alone 2. Not to mention that it relies completely on the commenters. I hope Sophist can do better.

50: this sound funny now, but I bet you that those issues will be both topical and interesting in less than fifty years.

38:

Funny. I can't recall the last time someone actually asked me whether there was consideration in an agreement. Not saying the issue doesn't come up, but ... really ... what did you actually learn in law school that you (1) remember to this day, (2) actually apply in practice, and (3) couldn't have learned through an apprenticeship with a practicing attorney.

I don't know about you, but I don't cite to my text books when I prepare a brief. I cite to statutes or cases. Every once in a while, I cite to a treatise, but never anything as generic as a law school text book.

So tell me again how those classes were useful to me?

- 33

The best part about elements of the law was that I was late the first day, had to sit in the front row, and for the rest of the quarter I had to suffer having Cass's junk in my face. He loves to lecture with a knee up on the front row's desk surface, and he doesn't really care who's where when he does it. One time he kneed a girls laptop shut on accident and didn't even acknowledge it.

I am litigator, and a surpising amount of first year stuff has come up, particularly Contracts. I never thought I'd see any of it again, but I have.

PANTS LAW

38:

And as a follow-up, under your theory, I would have had to taken copyright to be a copyright litigator. I can't learn a new area of law once I'm out of law school. That makes a whole helluva lot of sense, doesn't it?

Mouth breather.

- 33

55 - I attended an ABA Aviation and Space Law Forum Issue Conference (I'm interested in Aviation Law) and Space X and Virgin Galactic Gen Counsels were on panels, which sparked the questions in my mind. Sure it's hypothetical but the whole "Torts in Space" came up when thinking about Miss Piggy wacking Rolf on a "Pigs in Space" skit. Ms. Piggy....sigh.

I am litigator. Me good at stuff.

43, Why would people be interested in doctors or any other profession if the apocalypse (I.e., the end of the world) came tomorrow? Additionally, why do you and others like you use words whose meanings you don't know or understand?

And civilization as a whole is a "contrivance," fool, not just the legal system--so your "point" is utterly vacuous and invalid.

I went to the Phoenix Online School of Law and had my JD in 3 weeks. Never studied once. Passed the American Samoa bar exam on 2nd try. Suck it Skadden.

63: People would want doctors because they're sick. They would want bakers to make them delicious cakes. They would want mechanics to ensure that their cars are running properly for one last drive to the Coney Island beach.

Anybody want to buy a vacuum?

58,

I'm a litigator also. And I agree that contract issues arise that may have been dealt with in Contracts class. But my point is that (1) all of those issues can be understood based on reviewing cases, statutes, and narrowly focused treatises and by discussion with more experienced attorneys and (2) those issues are few and far between. More often than not, I have novel issues I have to research and learn about because they weren't covered in my law school class.

For example, novation was not a concept raised in my Contracts class. Maybe that speaks to the quality of the school I attended, maybe it speaks to the obscurity of the issue. But it came up recently in a litigation and I had to learn about. I did and I prevailed on that issue and I did so without going back to law school.

So all I'm saying is that much if not all of what we do as lawyers can be learned without law school classes.

- 33

Wow, it took 68 comments for someone to give Sophist props for the dig at F&D's C&F interviewing post?

You actually blew it on Space Law. Apparently, people who have working knowledge of internatinoal aviation and outerspace treaties (and they exist) are in high demand. Lots of rapidly developing countries, i.e. Brazil, India, and such are working toward space programs. Guess who gets that adviser job?

And for the ultimate anecdotal evidence - I know a dude who made a career out of Space Law and lives in Rome...that's right Rome. People laughed at him in school...not so much anymore. He gets paid in euros. Do the math. Can you say ballin'

"I have novel issues I have to research and learn about because they weren't covered in my law school class."

Yes, and aw school taught you to do so, while thinking systematically and legally about those issues. I don't see why you discount your legal education. It's not about the trees or the forest; it's about the binoculars.

"I have novel issues I have to research and learn about because they weren't covered in my law school class."

Yes, and law school taught you to do so, while thinking systematically and legally about those issues. I don't see why you discount your legal education. It's not about the trees or the forest; it's about the binoculars.

35 here. 37, I appreciate the “post of the century” comment, but not sure my point was that all law is a “contrivance.” My point was more along the lines of: international law classes typically cover treaties that no countries follow and decisions that no one views as binding. Georgian scholars can whine that Russia has no casus belli but to the Russians it would just sound like latin.

72: that's what I meant. I clarified my point in a later comment, when I mocked the Georgian wonks that might attempt to stop Russia.

70/71,

Are you really Sophist? Very wise teachings. "It's not about the trees or the forest; it's about the binoculars." Very wise indeed.

The best thing about philosophical garbage like that tripe is that there is no real way to prove that it is accurate. A law student may learn to research and think systematically and "legally" (for whatever that means).

Of course, a law student may also have learned to do research and to think systematically in college (hence the ability to even get into law school), by earning a post-graduate degree or by actual real-world experience at a job before law school.

So you'll pardon me if I don't bow down at the altar of law school wisdom. I still believe that much, if not all, of law school can be learned through practical experience and need not be in a class room.

I will concede this: To the extent it is considered a class, any law school clinic would be worthwhile because it would give practical experience in whatever area of law to which the clinic was devoted.

- 33

70/71,

Are you really Sophist? Very wise teachings. "It's not about the trees or the forest; it's about the binoculars." Very wise indeed.

The best thing about philosophical garbage like that tripe is that there is no real way to prove that it is accurate. A law student may learn to research and think systematically and "legally" (for whatever that means).

Of course, a law student may also have learned to do research and to think systematically in college (hence the ability to even get into law school), by earning a post-graduate degree or by actual real-world experience at a job before law school.

So you'll pardon me if I don't bow down at the altar of law school wisdom. I still believe that much, if not all, of law school can be learned through practical experience and need not be in a class room.

I will concede this: To the extent it is considered a class, any law school clinic would be worthwhile because it would give practical experience in whatever area of law to which the clinic was devoted.

- 33

Apologies for the double post.

- 33

Winner winner chicken dinner. Winner winner chicken dinner.

75: Okay, Mr. Empiricist. So because we can't prove that students learn how to understand a legal issue and frame in law school, then they're not worth their cost and time?

66, How about a dryer door (slurp).

78,

Okay, Mr. Slack Jawed Yokel. Clearly you missed the point. Law school may be worthwhile to some people. Law school may even touch certain skills. But I still haven't read anything that suggests that those skills can't be learned another way which costs less and is more effective. If I'm right, that practical experience trumps law school classes, then all law school classes are worthless.

More broadly, I challenge you to honestly state that there weren't times in law school that you felt this whole thing was pointless. Do it and I'll call you a liar.

I also challenge you to state that you have learned a whole helluva lot more in school than you did in practice. Do it. And, again, I'll call you a liar.

78 here.

My point is that you can always improve in this regard, and law school, despite your skepticism, will improve you.

In today's internet age, people forget about what it was like to attend law school in the 1970s. Most students had no idea what was going on. There was no Getting to Maybe, no outline bank from which you could learn Torts simply. You had to dig deep into cases and get lost in detail. That's what Law School is about. That feeling.

What happened to all the Law and the (fill-in-the blank) classes? Nothing more than over-glorified poli-sci courses (undergraduate classes at that). Although, its the best way to boost your GPA.

I think a point of the post was that these are classes that are often promoted or required at schools but are useless for the vast majority of practitioners - so, yes, there are a few guys in the world getting work in space law, as there are some international law lawyers working before the World Court, but the number is too small to offer an entire class in it.

Agree with the poster above about appreciating CLS for allowing us to get our worthless crap out of the way easily. Legal Methods - 3 weeks of it before real school starts and pass fail. Professional responsibility - 1 week of it before school starts. Con Law with Kendall Thomas...nevermind.

Learning law, 80, is not about efficiency or the rapid download of information. It is about EXPERIENCE. Read some Holmes. Have you read the Common Law? It's the famous line.

Yes, there may be more effective ways to learn, but they miss the point. You need to go through ConLaw, Property, and these dry treatises in order to experience them, to feel out the law, to learn it.

Seriously... if a paralegal can do it, then why pay a lawyer? Practicing the law isn't that hard.

78/81,

Fair enough point that today's law school is different than law school in the '70s. I wasn't there in the '70s but I will assume all that you say is true.

So maybe the answer to Sophist's question is that all classes in law school today are worthless, but classes before the advent of the internet (for popular use, not as DARPANET in the '60s) were worthwhile. I can live with that.

- 33

86: exactly. The internet has spoiled the surprises of Law School and turned it into an exercise on par with completing a thesis.

In the old days, even Harvard kids thought that they needed to be at the top of their class for a BigLaw position. These days, you see threads about which percentage is the cut-off. The system hasn't adapted to its own information overload.

More F & D please.

Cannot wait for the vote.

57: Your description is hilarious, and I've never even laid eyes on the man. He sounds like an absolute asshole.

As to law school classes, the people I knew who complained the most about law school's utility generally zeroed in only on exam preparation and made classes boring for themselves. I loved the content of what I learned in law school, but I hated the process (exams, competitive shitheads, etc.). I don't think there's a fairer way to do it, but I still found it unpleasant.

89: where'd you go to school? I'm surprised by the overt competitiveness. It seems like most places manage to subsume it.

pants law

I couldn't disagree more about the utlity of Pants Law. Obviously, it's just an intro/survey course on the subject. But, from there, you can enter into so many feilds and variations of Pants Law: FancyPants Law, SmartyPants Law, SadPants Law...the possibilities are endless. Ignore this burgeoning feild at your own risk.

Appalachian Law has two classes that are HIGHLY recommended if you are going to practice in the region:

(1) Asbestos law; and (2) Black Miner's Lung law.

Damaged Lung Lawyers, LLC only hires people who took those classes. I didn't, and I don't have a job. Maybe I'll apply to Cravath.

65, if the world comes to end, people won't be "sick," they'll be dead, which would make delicious cake and drivable cars as irrelevant as some prescription-pusher. Is there some part of that you don't get?

I liked Elements =(

ha ha "Digital Democracy"...in light of the ridiculous ATL Idol thing, maybe more people should have taken it...

Anything with arbitration in the title. No matter what the law actually is, the arbitrator can do whatever they want and that is final. The arbitator is only looking to keep the client who will be back with the next arbitration and the decision is not even appealable. Total bull shit.

Anything with arbitration in the title. No matter what the law actually is, the arbitrator can do whatever they want and that is final. The arbitator is only looking to keep the client who will be back with the next arbitration and the decision is not even appealable. Total bull shit.

I took Dula's Space Law class and enjoyed it immensely. He's an interesting guy with an entrepreneurial eye for opportunity in the legal world, which was refreshing to listen to rather than the regular "you'll be lucky to have a job working 80 hours a week" that generally gets parroted around U of H. Dula took something that interested him and made a wildly successful career doing stuff he loves.

And yes, to the commenters above, there is a convoluted jurisdicitional regime that covers the ISS, but to make a long answer short both the nation of the victim and the nation that owns the portion of the ISS in which the tort occurred would have jurisdriction.

so wait - are all of you d'bags saying I should stop work on my space law treatise?

two words: animal law

How about Georgian Constitutional law?

Seems like it will be useless in a couple weeks.

"Just be sure to know enough to pass your character and fitness interview. Apparently, that is much harder than I realized."

Nice.

All the classes I took were pretty much useless. I learned more from BarBri.

A thread for classes that were actually useful might be more helpful for the law students.

Why not a DOCUMENT REVIEW class?

I am in International Law and it is absolutely horrible. Never take it. Ever.

I am in International Law and it is absolutely horrible. Never take it. Never.