1: We all know career services don't really help too much. That's why there are all these 3rd party programs to get jobs, like Kinney Recruiting, OCIAdvantage.com, etc.

Good. Luck. LLM anyone?

3Ls are screwed. Sorry kids. Better luck next time.

Maybe go for an LLM in Bankruptcy?

10:13 - Recruiters - like Kinney, Mestel, Lateral Link, etc. - wouldn't work with 3Ls. They focus on moving experienced attorneys (laterals).

end it all

Nice...go get an MBA

http://endofesq.com/?p=88

Other options for 3Ls:

-- clerkships (federal or state)

-- DOJ Honors Program

-- DA offices

-- fellowships (like law teaching ones)

I will give away my secret to no-offered 3Ls.

I was no offered. Career services was no help. You have to make your own luck.

1. Read the papers at any location that you may like to work at.

2. Keep track of any potential judges, federal or state, that may be appointed in the near future.

3. As soon as someone's name is mentioned as receiving the nomination, or being confirmed, find an address for that person and send them your information.

4. Meet people that may know that potential judge, and chat them up. This can be at attorney gatherings, alumni gatherings, or political gatherings. Let them know during the conversation that you would like to work for Judge X. It is your dream job. Don't be shy.

It worked for me. It can work for others, too.

I am a 3L with a good offer and good grades from a good school who interviewed with about 5-6 firms. It is very tight out there, and I feel sorry for anyone who didn't get an offer. I have one callback, and that comes with a caveat about the possibility of no 3Ls being hired. Luckily I have an option to fall back on.

As a 3L, I had an interview at a firm that started with the letter Z. One of the lawyers asked me how I came to apply there: "did you start at the back of Martindale Hubbell"? (This was before online listings, to give away my age.) Although the comment was obnoxious, I realized this was a pretty good strategy! People always start at the front of alpha listings - there's less competition at the back!

(My last name starts w/ith a W, and I'll vouch for the fact that it's lonely down here.)

You should have put in more effort as a 1L so you did not have to work at a TTT firm that could not find enough work for its associates when the economy hit the shitter.

As a 3L, I had an interview at a firm that started with the letter Z. One of the lawyers asked me how I came to apply there: "did you start at the back of Martindale Hubbell"? (This was before online listings, to give away my age.) Although the comment was obnoxious, I realized this was a pretty good strategy! People always start at the front of alpha listings - there's less competition at the back!

(My last name starts w/ith a W, and I'll vouch for the fact that it's lonely down here.)

Best advice for 3Ls w/o jobs? IMMEDIATELY apply to state court clerkships in the city in which you would like to practice (or state supreme court clerkships). Low standards for these and easier to get than a federal clerkship or a Big Law job. Many do not require recommendation letters, which makes them easier to apply to if you don't already have recs from the federal clerkship process.

The pay will suck, but it is only for a year and it will buy you time and get you experience--experience which even big firms in that local market will be interested in. I know quite a few people who state court clerked for a year and then had their choice of jobs from bigger law (still V100) firms in that city.

Such a better option than graduating without a job--you'll be stigmatized and stuck with doc review then.

A clerkship is probably the best path. Government work would be second (particularly something with an agency related to the field you want to get in to). If it's a no offer, Biglaw is closed to you for now. Cold offers will give you a better chance, but not much.

Elie's characterization of OCI as a "perk" is not really accurate. Most Biglaw firms only hire from OCI for new recruits and nowhere else, and so if 3L's don't get a job that way, it will be difficult to find one using other methods.

10,

i'm sure the no-offer kids who interviewed with the firm you got a callback from would love to know about your options. What's the point of going through oci in this economyif you have a "good offer"? Didn't you like your firm?

Great advice 10. Feel better about yourself dipshit?

There are other markets out there (besides New York etc). Most other professions (academia springs to mind) require that one be willing to move to where the work is. A compelling "this is why I want to live here" (not related to "because I can't get the job I want in NY) goes a long way to reminding firms in markets other than NY and similar that they're lucky to get you.

8: If you are a 3L with no law firms interested in you, its very unlikely that you'll get into DOJ Honors. DOJ Honors is at least as competitive as BigLaw.

DA's offices depend on the location. Manhattan DA - forget about it. Smaller cities - absolutely.

Does your school matter? What can a CCN student in this situation do?

"There are still jobs out there for good students from good schools." Really? I had no idea! Thanks for that...I tell ya man, ATL has just been so helpful.

Elie still can't write worth shit. Reading ATL is a lot less fun than it used to be.

18: you're awfully presumptuous, you know that? What makes you think that a non-NYC firm will have work for you? A recession affects the legal market in most markets.

Apply for any job you can find, but recognize that it is likely that you will graduate without a job lined up. Don't panic! Once you graduate, look for jobs with small firms (most of them don't hire this far in advance). Of course, many small firms don't pay that well, but you can use that as a stepping stone to biglaw. (I know from experience-I graduated from a top 10, but didn't get a job until Oct., right after I found out I passed the bar. The job was at a small firm with low pay, but after a year and a half, when the economy had improved, was able to lateral to biglaw).

24: What did you do at the small law firm? Did they train you well?

How did you find the small law position? Job listing?

Was BigLaw receptive to you because of the degree once the market improved?

Can you give us a sense of which T10 school? Was it located in a rural or urban market?

3Ls without jobs: apply now to state court and bankruptcy court clerkships. consider a tax ll.m. continue to apply to jobs at law firms but do not assume you will land one by graduation. do not graduate without a job. i did and it took several years to dig myself out of the hole.

"There are still jobs out there for good students from good schools. This fall, 3Ls might need to think a little outside the box, but is there any doubt that full time employment awaits all who apply? "

Did Elie wear a crimson skirt when he was on the Harvard cheer leading squad?

LLM in bankruptcy is not necessarily a great idea.
First, it lacks the cache among practitioners that a LLM in Tax might have. Bankruptcy is, in all honesty, the wild west, where there is no substitute for learning in the trenches. Second, as the current cycle has shown, bankruptcy has become far less palatable for companies and their lenders (who are often the ones really driving the bus). In addition to the technical changes to the law enacted a few years ago, which have had a greater than expected impact on business bankruptcies, the greater involvement of hedge funds and similar investors, which take active roles on official and ad hoc committees, has led to a far more litigious and costly bankruptcy environment. I think there's a trend lately for lenders to try to avoid those costs and uncertainties by turning to workouts and other out-of-court options. Because of the lack of deals at the moment, those workouts are being staffed by banking lawyers, as opposed to the bankruptcy lawyers who would have handled the matters in previous years.

Then again, I could be wrong, and the big bankruptcy wave that everyone has been predicting will come in 6 months (as they have for the last several years) will actually hit this time.

I doc reviewed for 2 years (awful) and got a Tax LLM at night. Now I've been working biglaw for two years, just long enough to be (probably) laid off soon. Stupid economies.

Career Services WANT to help you. Their goal is to raise the percentage of employed graduates at graduation. They want you to be a happy, productive, and generous alum.

The idea that they're not helpful is a myth, and one that's born of lackluster and inefficient use of their services. If you sit in their office for four hours, you will not find a job. If you discuss your options with them and become a proactive hunter, then you will. Period.

If you have some balls, move out of the city and start your own practice. You won't make shit for a few years, but once you get a clientele going you will eventually make more than most associates at big law firms. Even if you don't, you will not have to answer to any d'bag partners or work any more than you want to.

DOJ Honors is more competitive than BigLaw on the whole, unless you're talking about V10

Carrer Services - #1 reason while my law school will never see a dime from me no matter how much I make (I do donate to my undergrad)

These people are the biggest waste of resources at any law school...they are great at helping you get jobs you did not need their help to get.

If you graduate in a down economic cycle you are on your own, because very few schools are any good a finding placements at medium and small firms.

29: poor Grover Cleveland. Shouldn't have been persuaded by Lewis Allen to arrange herdbooks. There simply isn't as much money in Ohio livestock as there was in the 1840s.

"We are receiving great information from the readers on no offers and we continue to follow up with the firms themselves."

This is the worst sentence in the history of the English language. Elie, you are unreadable.

Lat, please undo this travesty.

No-offered 3L's, you're screwed b/c of people like #10 taking the few available spots for which you're all applying...

I can vouch for 3Ls having difficulty getting jobs. Last year, as a 2L, I got gobs of interviews, tons of callbacks, and quite a few offers.

This year, because my school OCI deadlines were early, I decided to submit a few applications even though I was expecting an offer from my summer firm (just in case I didn't get an offer). During my interviews, the MOMENT I mentioned or answered affirmatively that I was a 3L, the interviewers lost complete interest in me. Needless to say, I didn't get the callbacks. This is despite the fact that my 2L GPA is markedly higher than my 1L GPA.

Thankfully, I received an offer from my summer firm so this isn't that big a deal, but I thought I'd share.

33: did you bother to read my post? You didn't use them effectively.

Would it be advisable to pass up a summer associateship this year, so that you don't face the risk of being stigmatized by a no-offer next year?

37: WHY? That doesn't make any sense. Why would a firm not want you because you're a 3L?

30 = Dean of Career Services at Thomas Cooley School of Law

why would anyone enter into a profession that is so oversaturated? It makes no sense. I pity you all

10 here. Didn't like the practice area and culture of the firm I went to. I am only looking at firms that no offered 3Ls would not have a shot at (V10). Best of luck to them at Chadbourne.

42: the same reason that bad actors and attractive people move to LA. The incentives of winning this game are enormous. The losses are bearable.

25:

The firm I went to was a litigation boutique ( I wanted to do litigation). I found the position by looking through job listsings in the local legal paper. The listing was actually for a clerk, but during my interview the hiring partner said that since I had graduated law school and had passed the bar, he would't hire me as a clerk, but said that he would offer me an associate position.

The partners were very good lawyers (the managing partner went to a top 10 school himself). The work was a good mix of small cases, where I had lots of hands on experience (took depositions as a first year), as well as big cases that were more reflective of biglaw (our firm was co-counsel with biglaw on a couple of cases).

My degree is from an urban school, and it definitely helped when I went to move. Specifically, a recruiter called me, and helped with the job search. He only works with students from "top schools". Also, there are a lot of grads from the school I went to at the firm I am at now.

Note that in some ways I got lucky. It took some of my classmates even longer to find a job (although I think everyone eventually did).

-24

It serves law students right that jobs are evaporating and it's more difficult to get a position. The juris doctor is an advanced, professional degree, not simply the "new college" degree that follows after a joke BA major. In today's society, the high school diploma has been relegated to nothing, basically the equivalent of graduating from middle school or junior high. The college degree has become the new high school diploma. Everyone has one. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but that places a greater strain on graduate school to provide a "real" education. Students realize the little value of a college degree when they turn down Ivy League schools for full rides at smaller colleges and universities, and everyone knows that where you went to college is ultimately superfluous when applying to graduate school, particularly law school.

The influx of students to law school has created a deluge on the market. Add a downturn economy, and that is a double-whammy. Students should not pursue a legal education. It is an elite profession, not a fall-back option. Attempts to "go back to school" just to avoid the inevitable for three years are only hurting the profession. Everyone, it seems, is now a law student who complains about the work and the job market. My advice: go get an MA. It's less work (more time for you to do your partying there rather than at law prom), it's cheaper, it takes less time (a year of more youthfulness to continue your partying, sans law prom), and it will put you no farther ahead than your JD graduate counterparts--except, maybe, in the debt department.

9/10:25's "secret" advice is a good start, but if you really want to land a clerkship as a no-offered 3L, try these tips as well:

5. Garbage - demonstrate your knowledge of property law and attention to detail by rummaging through the judge's garbage in search of any problems you might bring to the judge's attention. For example, you might offer some great preventative medical advice for genetic susceptibilities about which the judge was ignorant before you ran DNA tests on discarded Kleenex.

6. Relatives - track down and interview any ex-spouses, mistresses, children and grandchildren of the judge to find out information that will set you apart in the clerkship hiring process. For example, little kids will tell you all kinds of inside info. about what makes "gamp-gamp" happy if you offer them candy at their elementary school playground when teacher isn't looking.

7. Help in other ways - nothing demonstrates your diligence and persistence better than helping the judge do non-legal tasks while implicating your ability to do legal tasks. For example, systematically "disappearing" the judge's nannies, housekeepers, bailiffs, etc. will leave the judge in dire need of assistance which you can provide. As soon as a clerkship spot opens up (perhaps through another "disappearing"), you'll be number 1 in the list.

Hope these help, and good luck in this economy.

3Ls still looking for a job are probably left with but two avenues: small firms and government. I'd say pursue government positions all the way. The pay sucks, but they tend to offer great on-the-job training, advancement, and exposure to BigLaw firms that may one day want to poach you. The pay also sucks at small firms, but none of these other benefits exist.

42... because there will always be demand for exceptional lawyers. There is no demand for mediocrity in law or any profession. The bottom half of law schools should not even exist.

46: this discussion isn't about lackluster students who delayed the real world by matriculating at poorly-regarded schools. We're talking about the go-getters who snagged spots at T10 Law Schools. These people are hard-working and enterprising, and it's not their fault that some firms are scaling back.

As I've previously suggested, top students would be wise to ensconce themselves at lower-ranked and regional firms during down-turns. Their status provides insulation against the inevitable NYC lay-offs, and they can always lateral when things improve.

I saw that Orrick has a vacancy here in Sacramento for a 3L. Just one, but it's there. Good luck with that.

Chance this guy was a no-offered 3L looking for a job?

http://www.glenlenner.com

Now drives a Rolls Royce, lives in a $20 mil. house, second home in Arizona wroth $3.5 mil., and runs his own 20 attorney+ firm.

49: I love how you failed to answer 42's question. 42 asked why people entered an oversaturated market, not why there isn't demand, though I understand the relation of both variables.

A: why do bakers go into an oversaturated market?

B: because we always need great bakers. the bottom half of the loaf shouldn't exist.

Call and talk to every lawyer you know and every lawyer they know. Arrange lunches with people for advice, even if they can't help you now. Go to Bar Association events (I know, they're boring as crap, but you meet people). I got back into biglaw after being shoved out of another firm. I got my new job through crazy networking. But it can take a while -- took me 4 months, and that was before the economy really tanked. Finding a job like normal people do it is itself a full-time job and it sounds like the easy-peasy OCI days are over.

50:

It's the "hard-working and enterprising" "go-getters" who are the first to jump off the bridge when that trend seems to be becoming the popular thing to do. I play my violin for these 3Ls who can't get jobs, just as the violin was played for me when I could not get a job after graduate school, and I'm just as hard-working and enterprising. No sympathy then, no sympathy now, sorry. I wish them luck, but there is no entitlement to anything in this world.

An

55: you went to graduate school. No reasonable person expects employment after slaving for some egotistical professor on an analysis of WiTTTgenstein's relation to Frege.

These smart, hard-working people aren't at fault. They came in with reasonable expectations and those reasonable expectations weren't fulfilled. It's not comparable to graduate school at all.

Are there worst things in the world? Yes. But you're entitled to sympathize for more than starving children in Sub-Saharan countries, especially when microcredit organizations and better governance could solve the kids' problem.

I feel for people who don't have jobs after spending a summer at a BigLaw firm - I've seen it happen to a lot of really smart and good people. At this point, you just have to pull out all the stops and call every last person in the market that you know. Someone is bound to know of some section at some firm that is looking for baby lawyers. If not, you have to go the clerkship/governmnet route to BigLaw, which is daunting by itself. You can pretty much guarantee that Career Services will not be of much help, they have less connections than you do if you just spent three months working in the job market.

"Students realize the little value of a college degree when they turn down Ivy League schools for full rides at smaller colleges and universities."

Of course. This is why there's a multi-million dollar industry designed to get above-average high students students into Ivy League schools. This is why parents run around like berserk lawnmowers when their kids get into Harvard, ululating, "WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP."

Cold-offered 3L here. I can confirm that being a 3L at OCI turns an otherwise promising student into a social leper, despite the fact that I am sociable, go to a top school and have great credentials. By way of comparison, I had 25 screening interviews last year and received 22 callbacks; I accepted 15 callbacks and had 13 offers. This year, so far--nothing.

Several places that gave me an offer last year have expressed interest, but are waiting to see what their needs are... so there is some hope. I have also applied to clerkships, which OCI interviewers seemed happy to hear (in my opinion, this response is due to the fact that they could take me as a pre-clerk in their summer program, but wouldn't actually have to hire me until a year later--when the economy will hopefully have improved).

To head off the obvious question, no, I think the economy played some role in my offer situation, but I do take responsibility for not putting my best foot forward at my firm. I was not happy there, however, and would not return under any circumstance. I probably didn't feign happiness as well as I should have. The firm felt very cold and impersonal, which made me question whether I belong in Biglaw. I am open to other options, although I do have loans to pay.

If anyone has more advice about small litigation boutiques and how to find them/ get a job there, please post.

*prepares for abuse about getting cold offered*

I'm CCN as well, have a v10 offer in hand. Got no-callbacks, even at firms I got SA offers from last year.
I even have better grades now than I did before.

Pretty brutal out there.

57: why does everyone rip on the CS?

Can someone give me some examples of government jobs? That category is too broad.

59: You couldn't feign happiness for 12 weeks? I have no doubt that you're intelligent and well-credentialed, but that's quite the deficiency.

A few years back I got no offered (for really unfair reasons) and found myself back on the market. worked partime at a firm during my 3L year to get an offer.

Economically, I don't think that this country can afford to elect John McCain. The last hold-outs are knee-jerk Republicans who can't understand their own economic self-interest.

A few years back I got no offered (for really unfair reasons) and found myself back on the market. worked part-time at a firm during my 3L year to get an offer.

Thanks for the non-sequitur, 64

A: Kill thy self

54 has some great advice.

8,

with the exception of DA's office, all those positions are fiercely competitive to begin with, even more so in a down market. W/respect to DA's office, many municipalities across the country are facing budget shortfalls (i.e. less tax revenue due to slower economy) this year and are implementing hiring freezes.

Biglaw is hurting so much that as a federal appellate clerk I had to take an offer from a no-clerkship-bonus firm (the horror!) but I'm just happy to finally have a job.

Re: finding smaller firms/firms in other markets - I had some friends who were alums of other law schools get me their job listing login. Also, my career services gave me info on a shared listing (I forget what its called, but CS should know). If you want to go to a city other than where you attend law school, getting a local schools listing will reveal openings at smaller firms that don't bother to advertise nationally. Also, local legal publications (like Lawyer's Weekly if you're in a state that has it) will include postings for small/mid-size firms.

There are 140,000 people currently enrolled in JD programs? Wow.

54 was right to do what he or she did then, and it is great advice.
It's even better to be doing similar things while you still have a job so that if you feel bad times coming at ABC, LLP, you can make your move easily without the 4-5 months of prep work. Admittedly, few people have the interest or stamina to do such intense working in their spare time.

61 -
People rip on CS because when it comes down to it they cant help you when it comes to anything. They dont have the contacts, they dont have the information, they are just useless. If its no OCI and a big firm or federal clerkship you are on your own.

They can help with your resume and some mock interviews and stuff, but what you really need and want from them is for their to be network of contacts and area firms from big to small, and with local government agencies.

But CS is lazy. At the top schools its all geared toward OCI and big law. But we really do not need them for that. Those law firms want us just as badly as we want them. Its not really any work to set that up.

72 That's right. Its the end of esq. and you have a first class ticket to the collapse. You are competing for jobs against waves of new lawyers, lawyers continuing to practice in their late 60's and now countless Indians and Malaysians working for $12 a day. Think about it, endofesq.com

"But it is not like we are living through the Great Depression. There are still jobs out there for good students from good schools. This fall, 3Ls might need to think a little outside the box, but is there any doubt that full time employment awaits all who apply?"

This is, without a doubt, the most ignorant statement I have seen in a very long time.

76: That statement is perfectly reasonable. It doesn't say (more than) full time employment at Wachtell. Are you seriously suggesting that a good student from a decent law school won't be able to find _a_ full time job somewhere?

No-offered 3L's can still use OCI, just not in the way you might think.

Find out the deadline for accepting offers, or pay attention to when everyone on campus is starting to talk about their offers coming in and wait a couple weeks. Not call-back "offers" but actual offers. Then either using the actual acceptance deadline or a few weeks after you start hearing about people getting offers, start sending out your resume like a freak. Shotgun that thing to everyone on the OCI list. As people start accepting and rejecting offers, your resume should be coming in so it is near the top of the "pile." That way, when a firm ends up short and start looking elsewhere, you've got a shot.

For the firms you are actually interested in, follow up with an e-mail to the legal recruiter to confirm they received your resume and that you look forward to hearing from them. Attach another copy of your resume to the e-mail.

Finally, have your story ready. You are going to be asked why you didn't get an offer last summer. You are going to be asked (maybe in a round-about way) why you didn't get anything during OCI. Craft an answer that takes no longer than 15-20 seconds to say and doesn't paint ANYONE in a bad light.

This worked for a couple of friends of mine from school. Gook luck.

Harvey Birdman & Associates is now interviewing 3L's and qualified Indians and/or Malaysians. Our space law practice is growing rapidly in what has been a very busy year for us. Preference for top 60% at elite third world law schools, interviewing for all offices.

Don't just look at OCI. Career Services at my alma anyway had some options other than just traditional OCI. They had a smaller option for firms that didn't want to pay the $$, and they also had listings. Go through these and apply to anything you can get.

Everyone's said clerkships, but I second the advice to look beyond federal clerkships. Look to state supreme court clerkships, well respected federal magistrate judges, maybe specialized courts like bankruptcy court.

Figure out what you can spin. "If I learned anything this summer, its that NY Biglaw isn't for me. I think a better fit for me is [back home to indianna, in florida near where my brother lives, whatever]." Or maybe [in an employment law boutique] or some other area of law that doesn't get practiced as much in big firms.

Maybe the 3Ls can become high school history teachers. They certainly wouldn't qualify to teach economics courses because only a self absorbed idiot (believing the laws of supply/demand don't apply to him/her) would enter an oversupplied profession with no barriers to entry.

81: What part of this don't you understand?

Yale -- 200 people.
Harvard -- 550 people.
Stanford -- 180 people.
Columbia -- 400 people.
Chicago -- 180 people.
NYU -- 450 people.

That's it! I don't see any oversupply, do you?

77 - I suppose it depends on what you mean by "decent" law school and what you mean by "full time". I graduated in 2007 from a T1 school with above-average grades and haven't even gotten an interview for anything but document review. I work intermittently with plenty of other people in the same position, who graduated from much higher ranked schools than my own (e.g. GULC).

-76

83: it's an open secret that GULC's placement is weaker than you would expect. I would be more surprised to see you working with traditional T10 students.

81 - you're right. The rules of finance dont apply to you. See you in 10 years.

I meant 82, not 81 -

85

84 - I've learned that, regrettably for the GULC people. I am glad I didn't have to spend too much to get my degree (state school), and I'm not complaining (doc review does pay the bills), but to state that "good full time jobs are available for all 3Ls who work hard to get them" is beyond dumb.

-76/83

86: what "rules of finance"? These are the country's top law schools. Firms want to hire from these places, and there is a finite supply of students.

Just because Joe Shmoe School of Law opens across the street doesn't mean that everyone is relegated to document review.

Outside of my window, there's a billboard with a California highway sign. It is so tempting to go for a California joyride.

I'm a 3L at GULC. The people who can't find a job usually have sub 3.0 gpas. It doesn't help that the curve here is brutal....

I have a 3.35 gpa. Got BIGLAW in DC. It's not that bad...

But would it have been wise to go elsewhere in the T14, if accepted? Yes. Absolutely.

90: I'm always amazed to see people pick GULC over as high as Michigan and Virginia. Citing your school's location as a central motivation is not a good idea when careerism is involved.

A DC person told me that he regularly sees students from your school doing Doc Review.

Is 78 suggesting that the Vietnamese have a different kind of luck than the rest of us?

LOL@"rules of finance."

Poor TTT grad . . .

"This fall, 3Ls might need to think a little outside the box, but is there any doubt that full time employment awaits all who apply?" - Yes, there are plenty of "full time employment" positions to be waitresses or secretaries, but that's not exactly why people went to law school.

82: you assume, wrongly, that schools would rather hire from a T6 with a horrible GPA than a top of the class student from a Tier 2 school (let along a T20). That's not true.

"This fall, 3Ls might need to think a little outside the box, but is there any doubt that full time employment awaits all who apply?"

As an '07 grad still looking for full-time employment, I find this hilarious. Good work, Lat. This guy has a real vision of what is really out there in lawland for the vast majority of us. Oh wait, this is Above the Yale/Harvard Law now....

T25 grad here, no law review or journal, bottom 20% of my class, doing a federal clerkship AND I have an NYC AMLAW 50 job lined up after (summered there, so got the job before the clerkship).

People rag on networking, but I got the job and the clerkship through networking.

The kicker? Full scholarship and some savings before law school, so zero debt.

91, I've met Michigan and UVA grads who have struggled for biglaw jobs too. Not as many, but then GULC is a much bigger school. I would choose GULC again over those schools in a heartbeat. I couldn't stand being in the middle of nowhere for three years during my mid-twenties.

97 - what kind of federal clerkship did you swing with those stats?

95: There are many firms that would prefer to hire a T6 because it's a T6. They may be Vault80 rather than Vault10, but these students will find jobs.

98: I doubt that too many UVa/Michigan graduates are struggling.

97 - did you intern with the federal judge while in law school? do tell.

GULC brutalizes UVA all the time. To GULCers, it is no big deal.

97, tell us your secret! What do you mean by "networking"?

100, you must be in law school. Even the antisocial and/or bottom of the class students at schools like Michigan don't always get biglaw.

I'm top 20% of my class and ed board for a top ten law review. No offer, no callbacks yet.

104: what are you talking about? Do they get offers or not?

97 here. There was some luck involved too.

I got a 2L interview with the firm through an open slot during OCI. The interviewer was at best lukewarm with me. Coincidentally, I had recently been to a symposium where the head of her department was one of the panelists. Because I had spoken with the partner at length about his area of expertise (advising BODs in the zone of insolvency), I had a nice inroad with the interviewer. I could tell she had warmed to me, but I still left the interview feeling like I had about a 1 in 10 shot of a callback.

About a week later--against the advice of career services--I sent a follow-up email with some questions to the interviewer. She wrote back that she didn't have time to type out answers to my questions, and instead gave her office number and told me to call. On the phone she was brutally honest about how I wasn't the "typical" candidate. However, since I was obviously very interested she was going to make the case for me. I got a callback about a week after that.

One of the callback interviews was with the partner I met at the symposium. He was less direct about my resume, but I could tell it was in the subtext of a lot of his questions at first. The interview quickly (d)evolved into a continuation of earlier conversation. About a week after that, I got an offer over the phone from none other than the partner from the symposium and callback.

The clerkship was a little more pure networking in the sense that a network is a series of connections that beget connections. During my summer I was in email correspondence with a professor over an an issue in one of my assignments (it was actually not pertinent to the memo, just something I kept seeing in my research that bothered me). At a point he mentioned that I should email an attorney friend of his about it. The email with attorney friend led me to an obscure, unreported decision by an equally obscure district judge (by his own estimation). I contacted the judge--who was a law school classmate of the attorney--after my summer was over, who was "surprised and impressed" to hear from me. I mentioned the correspondence with the judge to my professor. Prof said I should try for a clerkship with the judge. So here I am. It's sort of in the middle of nowhere, but it's a federal clerkship nonetheless!

107: that was the most helpful post I've ever seen on ATL. How did you become interested in that subject, BDOs and insolvency? It's somewhat obscure.

The lesson is that you should always carve out a niche for yourself.

97/107 - well played. curiousit apparently didnt kill the cat this time.

97/107 - well played. curiousit apparently didnt kill the cat this time.

97/107 - well played. curiousity apparently didnt kill the cat this time.

Guys in my high school . . . .

I have heard stories that GULC students have been spit on during their OCI's. Can anyone confirm this? I am inclined to believe it but just wanted some validation.

When soliciting applications, Orrick and Cravath claimed to be interviewing 3Ls at my school, but they didn't actually interview a single one. Also, although Arnold and Porter interviewed 3Ls, they were just blowing smoke up people's asses and weren't really looking to take one.

I'm a 3L in the top 10 in my class, published on the law review at my top 40 school. No callbacks yet.

GULC students remind me of the migrant workers you see hanging around on street corners and outside of Home Depot - short, shifty eyed sweaty little f&ckers.

"Top 40 school"?

WTF?

I can't speak for no offered 3Ls but as a 4E(3L), I was able to get a job with a Vault 100 firm. My situation was a little different in that I summered at a plaintiff's firm that told us up front that the budget would only allow them to hire one of the five summers. Plus, they hadn't yet made the hiring decision when I was interviewing. By the way 113 & 115, I went to GULC and felt they did a good job to accommodate 3Ls at OCI. They give 3Ls priority for selecting cancelled interview slots. I only interviewed with DC firms and got 15 interviews, which resulted in a couple of callbacks and an offer.

4E?

4E = 4th year evening student, which is equivalent to a third year day student

107 - awesome, and congrats. All the seminars every by Career Services wouldn't explain networking better than your post.

Honestly, why couldn't Lat have chosen someone who can write as well as 107 to take his place instead?

105. Sorry to tell you this, but you must have zero social skills. With those credentials, you can get an interview almost anywhere.

wow, you are all so young and naive. Buckle up for a life of pain.

endofesq.com

I'm a 3L at a T10 law school with average grades and law review. Worked at a V20 NYC firm and got an offer, but I've been looking for a firm with a bigger group in my area of interest. Interviewed with about 5-6 firms at OCI but no callbacks yet. Should I accept my offer even though I'm not guaranteed to get into my desired practice group? (I didn't like any of the other practice groups at that firm)

I'm a 3L who just got a call back but they don't want to pay my travel expenses. is that weird?

Guys in my high school used to pay for their own callback travel expenses all the time. It was no big deal.

-FRAD STUD

90 and 91 --- I'm one of those people who picked GULC over UVA. Couple factors at play. I'm from right outside of DC... wanted to stay here.... got some pretty significant scholarship money....

Currently a 2L waiting to hear back from a number of firms.

I'm starting to realize that all the people who said, "Dude, you're crazy to take GULC over UVA" may have been right. I'll second 90's comment: It's the curve. The curve at GULC is terrible.

OCI is looking brutal this year for 2L's, let alone 3L's.

I'm at a T25 with Top 25% and secondary journal (2L). Not exactly chopped liver. We had a number of firms withdraw from OCI or go to resume collection. On top of that, it is becoming pretty apparent that hiring criteria are significantly more stringent this year than the official postings indicate, even for more local market firms. Everyone wants to limit summer class size and limit risk, which, in the big firm tradition, means hiring only from higher in the class than they say they are.

I still have hope, but I've had a couple of surprising dings that had nothing to do with the interview itself.

124 - that pretty much means Shearman or White & Case. And you don't really have much choice right now but to accept.

If you are a 2L who didn't summer in BigLaw but want a post-grad job in BigLaw, the key is to do an enormous mass mailing. at the time of my mailing, i was top 10% and law review at a tier 3 school. i sent out 255 mailings (cover letter, resume, and transcript) to firms in ny, nj, and dc. I got 2 interviews and 2 offers. the mailings are a total pain in the ass but worth it. assuming you're personable, have a good handshake, and can look someone in the eye during a conversation, all you need to do is get your foot in the door once. keep your head up.

90 said this:
I'm a 3L at GULC. The people who can't find a job usually have sub 3.0 gpas. It doesn't help that the curve here is brutal....
---

Dear 90: No wonder you can't find a job. Even if a school does not have a curve, it will have a class ranking. The curve does not affect the class ranking. Get a clue. Even if a school has a "brutal" curve, there are still people in the top 10%, 20%, etc. Cuve has nothing to do with it.

131--you're the idiot. Just spotted this thread. GULC only has a top 33%--and the curve sucks--so nobody knows if you're top 50 or top 90...your gpa just seems low.

131--you're the idiot. Just spotted this thread. GULC only has a top 33%--and the curve sucks--so nobody knows if you're top 50 or top 90...your gpa just seems low.

Curve or not, it's generally true that people at GULC with 3.0 and lower GPAs struggle to get jobs. I always thought that was bottom half or lower, but there's no precise way to know. Since top 33% is generally around 3.46, a 3.0 seems pretty low.

133, not sure where you're getting your info from - there is also a top 10% ranking.

I see a lot of responses suggesting/recommending that 3Ls consider (as an alternative to an offer from a law firm) DOJ Honors, clerkships, and federal or state government service, but I don't see anyone recommending or suggesting that 3Ls looking to practice law go in-house in a corporate setting. This is an area that still have opportunities and where you can learn and practice law in a manner you may not learn in a law firm or government setting. In addition, the pay and benefits can be very rewarding. Working in a corporate environment can give you the exposure to seeing things from the client perspective so that when you are able to get into a law firm, you will be armed with experience many attorneys do not have.

I see a lot of responses suggesting/recommending that 3Ls consider (as an alternative to an offer from a law firm) DOJ Honors, clerkships, and federal or state government service, but I don't see anyone recommending or suggesting that 3Ls looking to practice law go in-house in a corporate or non-profit setting. This is an area that still have opportunities and where you can learn and practice law in a manner you may not learn in a law firm or government setting. In addition, the pay and benefits can be very rewarding. Working in a corporate or non-profit environment can give you the exposure to seeing things from the client perspective so that when you are able to get into a law firm, you will be armed with experience many attorneys do not have.

I see a lot of responses suggesting/recommending that 3Ls consider (as an alternative to an offer from a law firm) DOJ Honors, clerkships, and federal or state government service, but I don't see anyone recommending or suggesting that 3Ls looking to practice law go in-house in a corporate or non-profit setting. This is an area that still have opportunities and where you can learn and practice law in a manner you may not learn in a law firm or government setting. In addition, the pay and benefits can be very rewarding. Working in a corporate or non-profit environment can give you the exposure to seeing things from the client perspective so that when you are able to get into a law firm, you will be armed with experience many attorneys do not have.