Now this is what ATL should be covering -- enough with the BS. Stay with it Elie! ncie post.

Seyfarth Shaw pays $145K to all first years. Check your facts.

Jeez, 3, RELAX. It's not Elie's facts, it's law.com's facts. And while you're at it, why don't you read a little more carefully:

"The top 25 California law firms are staying in lockstep with regard to associate pay. $160K for first years, $210K for fourth years, $265K for seventh years."

Is Seyfarth one of the top 25 California law firms? I think not. Here is the list they based it on:

http://www.law.com/jsp/ca/PubArticleCA.jsp?id=1203939958717

Yeah, there are major fact problems here. Littler Mendelson is in the top 25 of CA firms in terms of size and it doesn't pay market (145k for first years). Lewis Brosbois is also top 25 and doesn't pay close to market. I also question whether struggling firms like Pilsbury, Heller, and Thelen are still paying lockstep even if they claim to be doing so. CA firms definitely aren't as lockstep as NYC firms.

I am 5. Okay I stand corrected. Law.com apparently used some other means of ranking the top 25 and didn't include Littler or Lewis Brisbois. So whatever. Point still is that a lot of these CA firms are full of crap. I don't believe for a second that a fourth year at Thelen is making 210k lockstep. Only the top performers are.

NOT FIRST

Thelen is not paying that much. I know a 4th year there making 185k.

Seyfarth and Littler are even worse. My sister-in-law is there and says 4th years are making high 160's.

My firm, definitely not a Vault 100 firm, but still with about 325 or so attorneys, just switched from lock-step to performance based salary levels, and reduced billable hour requirements a bit. We're not on the west coast or east coast though.

Is Pillsbury in trouble?

Alston & Bird just acquired a firm in LA that paid $122.5K starting. Do you think they'll be forced into upping it to $160K?

Yeah fourth years at Littler make around 170k I think. There is massive salary compression as you get more senior so you go from 145k first year (only 15k behind) to a lot further behind as you move up. I would imagine Seyfarth pays a little bit more since they are "full service"

11 -- Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't A&B pay 145 starting in Atlanta. Why would they pay more in LA?

Evolution of a market in action. Pre-1998, associates were completely fungible with little to no value (other than as deeply subordinated worker bees) or respect from law firms. All the power was held by the partners and what associates thought and said was of little consequence.

With the internet boom, law firms found themselves in dire need of crowds of tech-savvy associates to staff deals, IPOs and IP litigation. A feeding frenzy resulted with firms trying to outdo themselves to lavish ever greater compensation and status to associates (and summer associates) and salaries quickly jumped from the $85K range in CA to $125K. Equally important, firms began to watch closely to what associates said and thought in an attempt to keep them happy and from jumping ship. In essence, hiring more and more tech-savvy associates (and keeping them) was the ticket to high profitability for a CA firm. For the first time (perhaps ever), associates truly began to approach partners vis-a-vis the firm's power dynamic.

Now in 2008, with profitability drying up, firms are reverting back to a 90's mentality. They're seeing their clients get hammered in the markets, greater scrutiny of legal bills, greater demands from the partnership to make rain and with only a crappy economy to work with. Partners are worried about their survival at the firm, and the firm's survival if they're lucky enough to stay. They really don't care about associates anymore, because they simply can't afford to.

Watch bonuses approach zero. Watch more and more no-offers for summers. Watch far fewer call-backs and many more stealth layoffs.

Not a good time to be an associate. Please come back in 20 years when the next pro-associate cycle begins to hit.

It won't take 20 years for the next pro-associate cycle -- more like 2 or 3 years.

What are the bonuses like at Littler?

15 - good luck with that. The economy will probably come back in 2 to 3 years. But law firms won't be the same, and associates will be back to being lackeys like they were in the 90's.

What's the deal with Orrick?

One Munger to rule them all.

16: pun time

Littler or nothing?

do you think this guy's salary was included in the survey.
http://endofesq.com/?p=119

the property market is falling in California because home-buyers don't feel the need to throw in outrageous bids (circa 2006) when so few others can afford to give out similarly outrageous bids.

same thing is going to happen to associates. firms aren't going to pay much for associates anymore because, as will become very clear, competing firms won't be willing to either. be ready for many fewer interviews, many fewer offers. and be happy with any TTT shop that will take you.

Any insight on Seyfarth LA? I'm considering a move there...

14 - you've never worked at a big law firm. Associates may have gotten big pay raises in the 90s-2006, but partners only listen to the slamming of doors as associates leave, then they increase pay and go back to being a-holes the rest of the time. Sure, there are exceptions, but there's a reason why associates quit big law firms at extraordinary rates and why big law firm associates' morale is horrid.

14 - Thanks for the history lesson. Now go kill yourself.

23: Seyfarth LA is a joke. Bad pay, horrible bonuses, limited spectrum of work. Stay at your current TTT firm.

"Now in 2008, with profitability drying up"

Evidence of this? For the top firms at least, even if there is some move back down to levels a couple years ago (pre-PE boom) ppp is still very high. Maybe for those firms that tried to match and didn't have a sustainable business model there are problems now. There is likely going to be stratification (further) in the market, but top firms will still need to pay $$$ to attract top talent. Anyone who says this time around is different doesn't know how things work.

"Now in 2008, with profitability drying up"

Evidence of this? For the top firms at least, even if there is some move back down to levels a couple years ago (pre-PE boom) ppp is still very high. Maybe for those firms that tried to match and didn't have a sustainable business model there are problems now. There is likely going to be stratification (further) in the market, but top firms will still need to pay $$$ to attract top talent. Anyone who says this time around is different doesn't know how things work.

"Now in 2008, with profitability drying up"

Evidence of this? For the top firms at least, even if there is some move back down to levels a couple years ago (pre-PE boom) ppp is still very high. Maybe for those firms that tried to match and didn't have a sustainable business model there are problems now. There is likely going to be stratification (further) in the market, but top firms will still need to pay $$$ to attract top talent. Anyone who says this time around is different doesn't know how things work.

No way. 14 knows everything.

I think what 27 said is correct because 28 and 29 feel the same way.

What about Howrey? It was big news when they announced that they would abandon lockstep starting in 2009. Have they now decided to back off of the plan?

Venable will start paying associates with bocci balls starting in 2010.

Author should do her own research instead of mindlessly repeating info from other websites that may or may not be correct. Moreover, if author is going to rely on another website, she should try to find something substantive to add instead of just chopping it up into block quotes. I can read law.com on my own, thank you very much!

34 should have sexual intercourse.

Here's the problem with the "profitability drying up" thing.

Worst case scendario, the entire V50 is going to see about a 10% drop in PPP this year. That won't even put them back at 2006 levels, given the 15%+ increases we've seen the past several years.

There will be a dip, then 2009 will see a high single digit increase, then back to double digit increases. The reason? The "Fragile" economy gives them the ability to trim associates who aren't productive and hold salaries and bonuses flat (or even decrease them).

Partners will keep salaries and bonuses flat because associates have no where else to go right now. Don't kid yourselves ... the salary increases and bonus increases of the last few years weren't out of charity, they were a response of the flood of attorneys out of Biglaw and into PE firms, hedge funds, and the like. Now, there's no high paying alternative, and biglaw associates have to suck it up and hope to hold on to their own jobs, while partners make up for slowing business by holding salaries flat and trimming numbers.

I agree with 34. I've recently discovered that a good chunk of info on this site is taken from the NY Lawyer e-mail alert. I don't know how I got on their list, but now I'm getting all the ATL information before ATL puts it up. Makes you realize how lazy Elie is being. Elie, you need to add content or commentary or there's no reason to read ATL instead of NY Lawyer.

37 is a douche

23: Seyfarth LA is great. I used to work there. Terrific people, very busy and growing office. They now have more than 100 lawyers in LA. How many other out of town firms can say that?
26's comments are irrelevant--they pay what they pay. I presume they've offered you a salary--you can determine for yourself whether it suits you or not. The bonuses are not good, though.
Limited spectrum? I assume you're L&E, in which case you already are in that practice area and a wide variety of practice group options is irrelevant to you. They've got about 75 L&E attorneys in that office, making it just about the biggest L&E group in LA.

Yo, why isn't QE there? I'm a third year, how much do I make?

lots of very angry partners out there, bitter about paying first year lawyers 160K.

its going to be a lot of fun these next couple of months

mooohhoooo hhhaaa haaaaa hhaaaa

No, 38 - 37 is a douche bag.

23 - there have been several post on Seyfarth. Bottom line, Seyfarth is "full service" but only weakly. They are still dependant on L & E. If you are an L & E person, do know that they are rolling out outsourcing to Indian attorneys. Pay - after 3rd year quite arbitrary. Salary ranges in individual classes rise up to 30-40 thousand. The LA office just went through a round of stealth layoffs. Plus, the LA office's decor sucks (they are allegedly moving).

The partners and associates are friendly enough, but they can be quite clique-ish. The managing partner is a dick.

The recruiting coordinator and her assistant have slamming bodies, topped with nice racks, FWIW.

Bottom line, you're allowed to masturbate in your office at Seyfarth. It's firm policy.

The deal with Orrick is that they are just surveying associates as to whethe rthey woudl be interested in a VOLUNTARY situation where they take less money for a non-partnership track/hours situation.

40: Way above market (per hour worked) if you're one of the 60%-75% of the associates who slack off and then complain about small bonuses.

If you're part of the other 25-40%, you are grossly underpaid for the blood, sweat and tears that firm extracts from you on a daily basis.

Moral: Quinn's the place to be if you want to aim low and are happy with mediocrity. Top talent isn't rewarded, except with a now officially longer partnership track.

45--Did Quinn increase the time to partnership? What is it, and how/when did it become official?

46 -- this is 30 here, yes John Quinn sent out a firm email increasing partnership time to 7-years. not a big deal.

but the important thing is that 7th years get a lockstep, market salary.

Hey 47, 45 here:

"but the important thing is that 7th years get a lockstep, market salary."

Too bad JBQ didn't say that! Given that the firm used to cap salaries at sixth year, even for more senior associates (with only slight, and usually below market, moves), one wonders if they'll actually extend the salary ladder, or just screw people too senior to bail.

Notice that despite the stated purpose of the extension was reflect the reality that most people were being deferred to their 7th year anyhow. Odds are good that now they'll defer to 8th years, and the shorter track will be a myth (sort of like paying for office supplies)

Anybody know anything about Holland & Knight, L.A. and Mayer Brown, L.A.?

Thanks

35 = 38 = Elie.

A wee bit sensitive.

Too many TTT firms think they can pay nationwide Cravath. The strain from trying is starting to show in most of them.

Cutting first-year associate salaries is probably too drastic, but eliminating lockstep after that and Ibanker-style guaranteed bonuses is not.

I lost count of all the typos and grammatical errors. I seriously find it insulting to be subjected to such horrible writing. It's like I'm reading the NY Post.

thanks 34 you are right on-bye bye elie

the NY Post has better writers than Elie.

42--
LA office of Seyfarth did not go through a round of stealth lay-offs. They got rid of 2-3 associates for cause. Don't want to sully their good names, but if you're going to falsely accuse the office of lay-offs, people are going to retort.
They're adding headcount like crazy--hiring 10 associates in the last 4 months, which you must know, so your lay-off claim doesn't make sense.

I really like the managing partner, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Amen, 52.

49- I can't comment about Holland & Knight L.A., but Mayer Brown L.A. could be risky business. The New York office had to steal 2 major partners from that office in the past year to make up for the massive partner exodus that recently occurred. I don't know if they got anybody to fill those spots, but the whole firm is going through weird restructuring right now so I wouldn't recommend it except as a temporary alternative to unemployment.

Can anyone compare the Orange County offices of Latham, Gibson, and OMM for me? Any info would be helpful.

"It's not that associates were cynical about variable bonuses and salaries -- "they just couldn't put their hand on it, so there's not a value."

More Heller Ehrman self-delusion.

"If you're part of the other 25-40%, you are grossly underpaid for the blood, sweat and tears that firm extracts from you on a daily basis."

If you shed blood, sweat, or tears for any large law firm, you are a fool.

23 -- the people I know who work at seyfarth LA aren't the brightest in the bunch. i can think of one particular doorknob who worked in employee benefits. granted i only know 3 people total, so i'm sure there are smarter people there, but those are just my impressions.

Does Seyfarth LA have a corporate department?

13 --

Yes, A&B pays $145K in Atlanta, but that's because it's "market" there (i.e. that's what King & Spalding does). They pay $160K in NYC and other offices where that's the market.

-- 11

The only firms/offices in LA that can truly afford to pay $160K, even in a downswing, are Latham and Skadden. Everyone else seems to be hurting. They can afford to pay that scale nationwide, which is why you never here about either of these firms doing significant no-offers, layoffs, bonus reductions, etc.

64 --

It's true Latham can afford the salary, but keep in mind they have a 1900 minimum and i don't know a single person in the first year class (in LA) who is going to hit that minimum. word is average hours for 1st years and even 2nd years are abysmal (something like 1300-1400 range), which probably means no bonus for a lot of people. when the economy slows, the california markets and firms are just going to be hit harder than NY.

62--Not to speak of, yet.
65--is that true about the average hours? only in the corporate department? any independent confirmation?

64 here - good point 65. I am non-Latham, but have heard the same from my Latham friends. 66, not sure if it is just corporate or everyone else too, but doesn't look like many (if any) will hit the bonus threshold this year. Skadden, on the other hand, does not have a minimum hours requirement to get a bonus - just need to perform on par with others in your class.

58--I know some folks at Gibson OC who really like it. Good mentors and supervisors. Not sure about hours. I know some attorneys at Latham OC and they are very sharp, but I get the impression that the work environment leaves a bit to be desired (mainly hours-based reasons).

42 here. To 55 - 2 to 3 people laid off "for cause"?? Try 6 to 7 people. And if the lay offs were "for cause", why did we have a meeting, led by the (dickish) managing partner, in an attempt to quell(sp?) concerns regarding stealth layoffs? And why did the promised salary increase and 2007 bonuses not comported with what many people actually received?

Seyfarth will remain a go-to firm for L & E work - somebody has to do it (and it appears that, increasingly, it will be Indian attorneys). But, it will never be a big timer. As for the L.A. office, the wage and hour work is what is keeping that office's (and the firm's) profits up. Good luck if you want to make partner.

Seyfarth and Bryan Cave are also no longer lock step

Seyfarth and Bryan Cave are also no longer lock step

66 -- latham 1st and 2nd years are unassigned, but it sounds like things are slow at the firm as a whole, not just corporate. i am only familiar with latham NY, by the way, and a very small portion of junior associates are going to meet their hours. i heard things are even worse in LA and CA in general. picture all 1st and 2nd years fighting for any doc review or diligence that comes down the pipe. those who do get work have to go out of their way to suck up and beg partners directly rather than try to get things through the assignment coordinator. latham won't ever lay anybody off, but an unassigned system isn't doing anybody favors in a tough economy. these associates are going to be 3rd years who have virtually no real work experience in any practice area.

69 - is it true that Seyfarth has hired 10 new associates in the last 4 months? That's not consistent with your claims of "stealth layoffs." Just wondering. Not attacking.

69 -- do you work at seyfarth LA? i personally know 4 associates who've left recently (or transferred to another seyfarth office), which seems somewhat high. just wondering if that has something to do w/ stealth layoffs or whatnot.

65- Don't know about the CA firms getting hit harder. True, they will always be playing catch-up with NY in terms of salary, but the close ties with the banks and Wall Street have killed NY on the corporate side.

If you look at the major tech deals earlier like Oracle/BEA, they still have a CA firm, Latham, one one side or both. Yahoo/Microsoft, Yahoo/Google etc. All had CA attorneys involved.
The tech companies are still strategic buyers in this climate, while the banks have slowed. In addition, they still have litigation and other work that needs to be handled. 90% of the time the heavyweights in Silicon Valley still tap the likes of a Latham, Wilson, Cooley or Skadden (Palo Alto) There is no better place to be than NY when the economy is rolling, I'll say that. CA is hurting, but I would rather be there as opposed to NY on the corporate side for now. CA is far more insulated than NY in this economy, and you have the weather.

58 - OMM's Newport Beach office is good - good people, nice offices, etc. It's a slightly different vibe than the LA office, a bit more laid back.

73--
8 lateral associates have started since the beginning of the summer; 4 more have accepted offers and are slated to start in the next month; 2 first years are starting soon; and there are a number of offers currently out being considered.

That sounds very inconsistent with the notion of "stealth layoffs."

69: No one ever said Seyfarth was a "big timer." Their PPP is in the sixes I think. They are what they are.

What is you beef? You are either a current or recently departed associate there--in either case your unprovoked attacking of the firm (this is a thread on the top 25 California firms) does not speak well for you.

55=77=78: 23 asked about Seyfarth LA and I answered the question. That is all. 55=77=78, you're clearly a Seyfarth partner.

Yes, they've recently hired some folks. But the firm did, in fact, engage in layoffs in LA and other offices earlier in the year. 55=77=78 knows this is true.

People have recently left on their own. Although Seyfarth LA has great associates, the partners will not hesitate to deal with economic problems on the backs of associates (such as, see supra, using Indian attorneys for first drafts of SJMs).

Also, there is an air of cliqueishness for which I do not care. This can make it difficult to get staffed on cases.

Moreover, the salary "bands" (as Seyfarth calls non-lock step salaries), which begin after 3rd year, allow for highly arbitrary differentials in salary.

23, Seyfarth has nice, helpful associates, wack-ass salaries past 3rd year, no non L & E practice to speak of, and not great partnership prospects. The leadership of the firm as a whole is non-communicative towards associates (and non-powerful partners). I'm just telling you what I see on an everyday basis.

QE is a paragon of unethical lawyering which filters down to the way they screw with associates. The employees who add the most value for Quinn is their marketing department, who are the best paid liars around. As a QE refugee, stay away. It's fine if you want to work one year, goof off, take your money and go to a clerkship, never to return. But any other arrangement with them sucks your will to live and warps your moral compass.

QE is a paragon of unethical lawyering which filters down to the way they screw with associates. The employees who add the most value for Quinn is their marketing department, who are the best paid liars around. As a QE refugee, stay away. It's fine if you want to work one year, goof off, take your money and go to a clerkship, never to return. But any other arrangement with them sucks your will to live and warps your moral compass.

does anyone know anything else about bryan cave's compensation past the first year?

does anyone know anything else about bryan cave's compensation past the first year?

81 - Can you be more specific? I have a call back at Quinn.

Hearing about NY firm and NY-style firm envy in this environment is a bit much. Why would anyone want to join a massive corporate department dependent on the very clients now going bust?