what will you be "pouring"?

(It's "poring")

I'm all for this post, but it's terrible timing, and I doubt anybody is going to reply that much ... 6pm on a Friday? C'mon ... how about 10am on Monday?

3 - It's only 3:15 on the West coast.

I've gotten calls from two judges, but both made it clear that they didn't follow the hiring plan.

Current federal clerk here. Some advice for those that will be waiting by the phone:

Don't get discouraged. If the phone doesn't ring on the first day, that's not always a bad thing. Some judges aren't even going to start looking at applications in later in the Fall/Spring. Us clerks just got on the job and we don't want to start looking for our replacements just yet. I'm still trying to figure out the phones.

Current federal clerk here in district court. Applied to circuit courts of appeal. Haven't heard a darn thing. I'm not sure what's going on this year, but even judges who are hiring years down the road haven't made a peep yet.

So, my advice? Don't hold your breath waiting to hear.

We don't care about gunners^h^h^h^clerks. More SA stories and layoff gossip!

I got an email from a district judge that said s/he can't call me to schedule an interview because s/he follows the hiring plan, but that s/he was impressed with my application and I should expect to hear from the judge soon.

I'm not sure the plan is worth the paper it's printed on, or the space it takes up on the internet, or however it's disseminated--bottom line, it doesn't seem to work very well.

Do most judges call right at 12 on Monday?

What is a typical ratio for interviews per spot?

Is it bad to not answer the phone, wait for them to leave a message, and then call back?

Current clerk here. We don't hire until February at the earliest because the judge wants to make sure I can give interviewees an accurate description of all the job entails, etc. He interviews to make sure he gets along with you. His clerks do the interviewing to make sure you can do the work. We've already received over 800 applications. Fun times for me. I'm supposed to select 10 to interview. How am I supposed to do that, I wondered. I figure I'll do as a prior clerk (jokingly (I hope)) suggested - hold the resume up to the light to make sure the watermark is right-side up. Those who carelessly inserted their paper into the printer get dinged immediately. Details, people. Details.

11 --

You don't deserve to be a clerk, let alone in a profession.

Dear 6,
I don't know if what you say is true, but I am buying it (for my own sanity). Thank you. Nice to see that every so often, a comment appears on this site that does not proclaim that the sky is falling.

Former clerk here. It's awesome. Good luck to all the applicants. From the clerk/chambers perspective, don't freak out over your interviews because the judge just wants to get to know who you are. You're resume gets you the interview, but you get the job. Be yourself in the interview. If you aren't a dick, you will go far.

Sitting on secret offer for Jan. '10 here -- I clerked for a magistrate judge that is tight with my future district judge, so, I suppose my situation is a bit different.

Don't pay attention to "you're" [sic] #14 commenter. Clearly lacks a clue. Interviews matter, big.

I already have two interviews lined up through some back channels.
I anticipate that I'll get a half dozen calls early next week for interviews.

#15, I hope you don't become a clerk. It is obvious #14 said the interview is the most important part. Maybe you should read it again. If you do get the clerkship, however, you will prove #14 wrong, in that you can be a dick and still get a clerkship.

Thanks for the advice, #17, but I already have the offer and despite your "hope", I will be clerking during the '10 term. However, please take your own tidbit of wisdom and re-read #14's comment -- specifically the line: "don't freak out over your interviews". My point was, interviews do matter -- and a candidate should be freaked out about them a little.

Judge Robert Jonker in the Western District of Michigan was accepting OSCAR applications for exactly one day - Sept. 3. And the position was listed as filled as of 8 am EST on Sept. 4. Honestly, why did he even bother going through the motions?

holy crap, 19 -- really?

No 15/18, 17 was right. 14 said "the resume gets you the interview but you get the job" [i.e., in the interview]. Then 14 gives the further advice of "be yourself" [i.e., in the interview], suggesting that that's the best way to impress. The "don't freak out" comment was advice for doing well in the interview, and meant to be read in combination with "be yourself." It did not say that the interview was unimportant. You are not a very close reader of texts. I hope your judge doesn't have to do anything that involves using statutes or case law. If so, he/she will have to read everything in the first instance. Maybe you can make coffee. I can understand how you misread 14 the first time, but the only explanation for your defensive misreading after 17 explained things to you is the one 17 gives - you're a dick.

I accepted a COA clerkship back in July. There are plenty of judges not following the plan

Boycott. If you support McSame, you have nothing to offer me.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/david_lats_exhillaryites_for_p.php

This process is miz.

Just be sure you don't clerk for a judge that directs his/her clerks to come in on a Sat. morning to catch up on the pocket parts the interns somehow avoided doing all summer.

At least the A/C is working.

I've gotten calls from 3 judges (10th Cir., 9th Cir. and 1st) and have interviews scheduled before Sept. 11 with all.

I also got an email from a 2nd Cir. Judge's clerk who said that the Judge was following the plan but if I was interviewing early elsewhere I should let them know.

The plan is clearly falling apart.

Alum who accepted a 2009-10 CTA offer a couple of months ago. My view is that the plan is falling apart - because an increasing number of judges are starting to interview and hire alums over the summer, while paying lip service to the idea that they'll wait until September to interview 3Ls. So, if 2-4 good alum candidates come across their desk, why not hire those folks and be done with the miserable hiring process? That seems to be what an increasing number of judges are thinking.

#20 - I couldn't make it up. As of 12:15 EST Saturday, he's still in OSCAR. A screen shot of his 1-year clerkship is the best evidence I've seen yet that the "plan" is a debacle. I just can't understand why he would even put something like that up in OSCAR, why even bother?

First?

First?

Off the topic, obviously:

I just wanted to mentioned that the pundits are way wrong and are not doing their homework. There are many Hillary supporters, Democrats, who are now supporting Palin with open arms. I am one of them, and I feel there is going to be a big surprise come November.

Apologies for posting here, but I didn't want to join Facebook in order to leave you a comment there.

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The plan is falling apart. I accepted my COA clerkship in the early part of the summer. It puts the judges, students, and schools that follow the plan at a disadvantage.

Yes, clearly the plan is falling apart: I got offers (without even applying!) from literally every COA judge while I was still in the embryo. Then Chief Justice Roberts asked if he could wash my socks. And Angelina Jolie declared that life wasn't worth living if she couldn't have my babies.

Post-clerks: bringing marginally useful courtroom skills, and zero litigation experience at a premium to your firm for only $35,000 - $50,000.

well-said, 35. 26, are you an alum? a rock star?

Is it bad form to call a judge you are interested in if you are going to be in the area interviewing with another judge?

38:

If you applied to the same court and you have an interview scheduled and will be traveling to that court, then it is not unreasonable to call and mention that you will be in the area. However, the judge should be from the same court (i.e., if you have an interview with the SDNY, do NOT call 2d Circuit judges, only other SDNY judges). That is my suggestion.

Most of the EDPA judges follow the plan. Good luck, folks.

Clerkship hiring is sort of a scam. The whole point of early interviews and early offers is to snatch students up before they get more lucrative positions at law firms.

It's the equivalent of a used car dealer accosting you on your way to buying a new Cadillac.

Judges should be forced to allow students to take as long as they need to accept or reject their offers. No more "take it now or it's lost forever" hard sell nonsense.

@41. You are absolutely wrong. Judges are competing for students against other judges, not law firms. If a student wants to jump right into BIGLAW, why the hell would they even bother applying for clerkships in the first place?

41, what are you talking about? Most people who are going to get offers from law firms already have them (by the end of the summer) and actually have to delay accepting them if they are applying for clerkships.

41 isn't that wrong right now. There are a lot of kids who will forego the clerkship for the biglaw job due to the economic condition of the legal market. There is no guarantee the same job is going to be there next year, plus the clerkship bonus doesn't even come close to making up for the difference in salary between big law and chambers.

Free market. No one is forcing folks to take clerkships. It's the decision of those who kick enough butt to get offers. And those who don't have what it takes to get such offers will always paint the choice in a bad light. Like these chumps who try to argue that taking a clerkship impedes your professional development as an attorney. There are more lessons in what to do and not do as a lawyer in the first week of clerking than you get in the first year as a litigation associate.

Current clerk here (Texas fed dist court): We don't even look at applications until November/December. The judge doesn't like hiring people a year in advance. I've asked him how he picks his clerks, though.

Pro-tips: Explain in your cover letter why you want to work in OUR COURT. We know you want to clerk. Using a generic letter is totally worthless, however. He turns down HYS law review applicants for local T2 people because they are more likely interested in being here.

you guys talk about biglaw like its a good thing. Wait, you are in for a big surprise after forfeiting the rest of your 20's and getting bitch slapped by demented broken people.

31, I believe you're in a very small minority. I'm a former Clinton supporter myself, voted for Obama in the primary, and cannot believe that a democrat could sincerely support Palin. She is in complete opposition to everything the democratic party stands for.

Besides, if it's only about voting for a woman, why wouldn't these disaffected Hillary supporters vote for McKinney, who actually IS a democrat?

@45 well sure, if you want to do litigation.

Corporate and $$$ all the way for me though!

You can have your cake and eat it too (and never have to do legal research again).

I'm also a former Hillary supporter who now backs Obama. Not only are Palin's political beliefs completely antithetical to the democratic party, but she's not even remotely qualified to be VP. It's offensive that McCain thinks he can substitute one woman for another and no one will even notice the difference.

Why on earth would a federal judge require you to have an interest in his specific court in a specific location? (See #46.) That's asinine. The vast majority of applicants simply want to clerk; they will take anywhere they can get! They want the experience of clerking, and they are willing to work really hard for a year to make that experience worthwhile. Everyone knows clerking is a one-year gig; your interest in the specific town is almost totally irrelevant. (There are valid reasons for preferring certain circuits over others, but that's a different issue.)

To all the judges who demand cover letters explaining an interest in a particular city: you are delusional. I have zero interest in moving to your random-ass town except for the job in your chambers. Do you really want me to lie about my strong desire to immerse myself in the natural beauty of Randomville, Texas? Do you really want me to pretend my spouse is from your town? What's the point of this charade?

51, that's exactly why the clerks are screening your dumb ass out. In my chambers, if we see two sets of credentials that look awfully similar (happens a lot, even among the best of the best), we will preference the person who seems to have done some research on the judge or has some reason for wanting to work in this particular court. It's not delusional, it's additional selection criteria to sift through the piles and piles of qualified applicants that pour in every year (my chambers rec'd 600+ apps).

At the very least, don't be an idiot about failing to market yourself, 51. You probably aren't THAT special.

clerking is dumb. get a job, grouch.

Does anyone have any tips for nailing a callback?

54 here, I mean callback at a firm.

52: Is using "preference" as a verb proper English?

completely agree with 51. judges who demand personalized letters are absurd babies. if they're really good, they don't need an explanation why you want to work there. if they're not really good, they shouldn't demand one.

#51: Judges aren't just interested in your labor. Often they also want to mentor and cultivate lawyers who will be assets to the local legal community.

I've sent out letters to 75 pro-tem probate judges. I've heard through friends that the pro-tems in Spartanburg, SC and Minot, ND are totally smashing through the rules, but they seem to be holding elsewhere. I'm not getting any calls, but it's no sweat. A guy in my high school (something of a frat stud, if you had to classify him) became a pro-tem in Tyler, Texas. He said he hires guys with my profile all the time and that I could always go work for him.

I really see no reason to clerk, even if you want to litigate. The monetary benefits are minimal and do not outweigh the loss of income, even if you include a clerkship bonus. Plus, it's a year of your life spent in timbucktu. Do you really think you'll get a leg up in your career compared to someone who didn't clerk? Doubtful, at least if you want to work in a firm and actually earn a good salary.

How long is it safe to wait between getting a call and scheduling an interview?

wow - two phone calls from edpa in the last 5 minutes.

51, 57: At least in my chambers, it's not the judge requiring personalized cover letters, it's the clerks. First, I don't want to call you to give you an interview with my judge and then you realize that you just sent an application to us because you applied to every judge in the state and to decline the interview. Then I have to go explain to my judge why this person they wanted to interview is not on there.

Second, I am a two year clerk, and I don't want to have to spend a year working with you if you're going to be a miserable person living in my city. Life's too short for me to want to listen to you bitch and moan for a year how this place isn't New York.

61 -- I wouldn't wait too long if it's a clerkship you're interested in. Interview scheduling (after being called) is generally first come, first served, and many judges (although certainly not all) give offers on the spot after interviews, particularly if they follow the plan. Waiting too long on a first choice can cost you your second choice, given the competitive nature of basically all federal clerkships. That said, if you're really set on a different judge, the (likely) worst case scenario (I don't know how your biglaw offer situation is, but I'm assuming you have at least a decent offer if you're juggling federal clerkship interviews) is that you miss out on a federal clerkship for a year, but get a chance to make some money and reapply as an alum if you're still interested in clerking.

Anyway, what I've described was basically my exact situation -- waited too long lining up interviews in order of preference and ended up out in the cold, did a year of biglaw and reapplied, and ended up with what had been my first-choice COA clerkship. (On a side note, I was more concerned with lifestyle -- I'm a California guy, so I was only concerned with 9th Circuit -- than with feeders, so no, I'm not saying this would work with Garland, etc.).

63: Agreed

-CA7

64: How long is too long? An hour? two?

When does a clerkship officially stop being prestigious? Bankruptcy court? State court? Anything other than COA?

Can we talk about salaries here, too?
Has anyone gotten an offer above Step 1, in whatever grade their placed in?

66: For me, an hour was too long, as all the interview offers I received came within a half-hour of the hiring plan opening, which was, I believe, 8 am (this was in 2006). However, I don't know how germane my time period is to your situation, as the "official" plan time this year is, I believe, noon eastern, so you've already been called before the designated "window." This complicates your situation, and I don't want to give bad advice. But you should know that if a chambers at least somewhat attempts to follow the plan, as it appears the chambers that contacted you earlier has, they might be calling all their prospective first wave interviewees one after the other -- i.e., they're not calling you at 8 am, then another person at 10 am, then another at 11:30, etc. On the other hand, you can always call them back now, schedule an interview (don't schedule it at 8 am on Sept. 11th if you're credibly expecting better interviews), and then later reschedule (try to offer a plausible excuse) if something better comes along.

-64

How bad is it to withdraw from consideration from an Judge who you already interviewed with before the plan opened if you got interview offers you prefer? I realize that's a risky proposition, but assuming you want to take the risk, is it totally bad form?

70 -- it depends on the courts involved. It is often considered bad form if the judges involved sit in the same Circuit or District. Otherwise, it is considered acceptable, but nonetheless somewhat risky (however, make sure you indicate you are withdrawing because you have interviews in your preferred locale, court, etc.). There is still obviously risk involved -- you might not get an offer from your preferred interviewers -- but withdrawing from consideration for court-level, rather than judge-level, reasons, is deemed acceptable by many judges.

71, 70 here.

I see. That is a very good point.

What about withdrawing from consideration from someone you have an interview scheduled with but haven't gone yet, and the interview is before 9/11, but you might interview with someone in the same court you prefer more (though different locations of the actual clerkship). I think that's probably a no-no, but I'm curious what others think.

60:

You clerk to avoid being a first-year associate.

67 - depends what you want to do. If you want to do BR work then a Federal BR clerkship would serve you well - in my opinion any federal clerkship is a plus on your resume. Obviously, a magistrate is not the same as a COA, but helpful nevertheless

67: If you want to do bankruptcy work, bankruptcy court is plenty prestigious. And some of the state supreme court clerkships are held in quite high regard (NJ for one). A lot of the cutting edge constitutional law work is being done in state supreme courts these days: the fed courts have to follow precedent, whereas the state supreme courts can interpret their own state's constitutions far more freely.

What about State Supreme Court clerkships - assuming you plan to practice in that state?

If you're on the phone with a judge/clerk, what is the procedure if you see an incoming call from another chamber?

77 - conference them in and let them bid for your talents

75 -- NJ Supreme Court troll.

Are you kidding me: "cutting edge constitutional law work" in NJ Supreme Court? I defy any non-NJ Supreme Court clerk to name -- without legal research -- one "SCOTNJ" Con Law decision off the top of your head.

I'll give you that California Supreme Court and NY Ct of Appeals would be prestigious clerkships... IF the judges of those courts regularly hired term clerks. Unfortunately, those judges have mostly career clerks -- I think Cali is all career clerksh, and NY Ct of Appeals has like 6 openings a year. . .

Our clerkship office said waiting more than ten minutes to return calls could be fatal. It is really annoying that some judges are jumping the noon call time, screwing up the whole screening process.

I am screening but returning immediately for all COA.

Don't forget to check your e-mail. I got several COA interview invites that way when I applied in 2006 (including the infamous Boggs quiz).

79 - Just reading through these today, not a SCOTNJ clerk:
Committee for a Better Twin Rivers v. Twin Rivers Homeowners’ Association

82 and 75 -- agree that a lot of interesting stuff comes out of State Supreme Courts, including NJ.

79 -- agree that prestige and influence of State high courts varies wildly. However, I'd count NJ as relatively high on that list. Obv, Cal and NY are the most high-profile, but NJ has some very interesting issues based on its unique land use profile and Del gets interesting Corporate cases.

On the other hand, let's not forget the venerable ATL tag "State Court Judges are Clowns"...

I have a very close friend, who graduated from Harvard. Worked for ML for over 8 years, last year he’s laid off too. OMG, now the banking industry is badly hurt, how long it would take for those financial background guys like him get back to the job market. Banking jobs are not there as much as before as easily seen on http://www.joboutlets.com and other job sites in the region

Is it deemed acceptable to withdraw an application at this point before getting an interview? I applied to various two-year clerkships in various states, and realized the commitment may be too costly given the starting salaries. I am a 3L.