Grade Reform Reaction Roundup
Last week we told you that Harvard and Stanford law schools were enacting sweeping grade reform. Reactions came in from students and alumni from many top schools. One close friend emailed:
If Harvard had this when we were in school, I’d be emailing you from DPW right now.
Suffice it to say, the friend emailed from a little further down the Vault list.
But to be clear, HLS doesn’t have anything just yet. Dean Kagan announced, “the new classifications, much as at Yale and Stanford, will be Honors-Pass-Low Pass-Fail.” She did not speak on the crucial question of how honors would be determined.
On the other hand, Stanford did announce precisely how their honors would be determined (“book prizes”). Some commenters criticized the decision because it could not be mapped onto a traditional four-point system:
The important issue with any grading system is whether the grades can be aggregated into one number—the GPA—and the students ranked on that basis. The A-F system is mapped onto the 0-4.0 scale (or 0-8, at HLS, until now). The HP-F system is not mapped onto any numerical scale. This makes it impossible to precisely rank students (without developing your own formula).
HLS could still end up with a four-point system of some description. As one reader pointed out:
Honors = A
Pass = B
Low Pass = C
Fail = Elie
Unless you believe the deans’ quest for “pedagogical excellence,” there is an open question as to why two top institutions would radically change how law students are judged.
Possible answers after the jump.
One commenter points out the obvious answer:
Harvard and Stanford are changing their systems because (a) they think it will help them to attract students who they believe were heading to Yale because there are “no grades” there, and (b) because they also know that they will maintain the ability to differentiate between students in a meaningful way, despite the outward appearance that this kind of competition will now be a thing of the past.
They are wrong on the first count, so long as students will actually visit the schools and talk to the students to learn about the cultures. Yale has a special, largely non-competitive atmosphere because the student body is small, more selective, highly coveted in all areas, and diverse enough in its interests and job ambitions that the students can maintain their high desirability in each area of the market.
As to the second count, of course, they are right. Harvard, for instance, with a class so large, knows that it must maintain a meaningful method of differentiation in order to satisfy employers and judges. There are extra-curricular opportunities, sure, but classroom performance must be the primary variable in any differentiating function at such a large institution. So, we should look past this change in the grading system and recognize that it is not going to change either the culture or the needs of HLS.
I am not saying any of this to suggest that HLS is an awful, hyper-competitive place. It is not. But what ever happened to maintaining a differentiated product? If Harvard wants to steal Yale-bound students, it should provide a superior, different product, not a Yale-wanna-be try at a non-conventional grading system that will give false claim to uniformity among their prospectives and graduates.
On its face, the moves by HLS and SLS do seem like an obvious attempt to move in on top-dog Yale. But Yale Law does not seem to be concerned. One tipster, a Yale 1L, said:
Well guys, imitation is the highest form of flattery :).As soon as the HLS change was announced, all of YLS was chattering…and then most of us went back to not caring. Unlike the HLS & SLS 1Ls, the 1Ls here don’t have to worry about faculty committees and their silly decisions about grade reform….thank goodness our predecessors protested back in the 70s…
The Yale student list-serv had even more mockery:
Next steps at HLS:
1) Cut class size by 66%
2) Open clinics to 1Ls
3) Change name to Yarvard
Harvard will change its name just as soon as New Haven hires a credible police force.
But maybe all this grade reform has little to do with HLS and SLS trying to move into the top spot. Instead, they could be watching CLS and NYU in their rear view mirror:
HYS is smart to do this as it allows their students to get whatever jobs they want as opposed to having to justify B’s. NYU and CLS will have to follow suit or they will never be able to compete with HYS (assuming they currently can for some students_.At NYU or CLS, if you have mostly B’s and B+s you won’t make a lot of firm’s grade cutoffs and are unlikely to get a t-10 offer. I know my firm has a strict cutoff. However, under the HYS system your grades will only be distinguishable for clerkships and for a few grade conscious firms such as Wachtell. No one else will care about the high pass, pass distinction.
Remember Boalt/Berkeley has had a pass/fail system for years. Of course, that’s not necessarily a good thing:
Notwithstanding any other arguments, the fact that Stanford is now being mentioned in the same breath as Boalt should be reason enough to be against the change.
What would you want your school to do? Vote in the poll below.
(70) Comments
Comments
FIRST-SUCK IT!
All this means it that Ivy UGs will be the proxy for grades.
Elie stays, I stay. Elie goes, I go.
Good post, Elie. I've been increasingly in your corner over the past couple of weeks, so I no longer subscribe to the "F = Elie" school of thought, but your reposting of that comment was comic GOLD. Also, couldn't Columbia or NYU position themselves as an alternative for hyper-competitive applicants by retaining grades and rankings? (Although I suppose Chicago has already positioned itself to fill the self-confident, class-rank-obsessed gunner niche. I'm also not certain that this is a bad thing, although it must suck to be in classes with those peeps...)
Nice self-deprecation.
less grading = more elite? lol. Only yale can get away with that.
HLS to TTT
The F = Elie really made me laugh
Agree with 5 & 8. May the Fonz be with you.
"The Yale student list-serv was had even more mockery"
Question: What does "was had" mean?
Answer: Fail = Elie
Who cares!!? Does it really matter, pedigree sack riders will always chose the last person in his Haaaaaav-ad grad class over the top person at a tier 2 or three school anyday.
What a joke, Harvard sucks!
Here's some advice for the dumbasses. Don't respond to previous posts. ("17--you're stupid and here's why...").
The previous poster isn't reviewing later comments, looking for smart retorts. S/he's done and left the thread. And noone else is going to compare the comments to see what your witty remark was about.
The only person who is interested in the snarky comment that you took 15 minutes to come up with is you. To everyone else, you're taking up space.
Cheers.
I heard Hofstra may switch to P/F for 1L's. Will the current economy hurt my chances of getting a job at a really big firm in New York City?? Does it help that I'm cute :)
--Hof1L
This blog sucks.
12, I'm responding to you. And you're watching. And there are fights on these comment boards, so people are responding back and forth.
Now I've given you the attention you've wanted. Go away, little boy.
I wonder if Harvard would support a similar change to USN&WR rankings.
12, you're stupid, and here's why---you go to a TTT.
I don't understand all this. If there are four possible grades, what does it matter if you call them A,B,C,D or H,HP,P,F? How does that make any difference at all?
Hof1L,
it isn't the economy that will prevent you from getting BigLaw. It is your Hofstra degree (and your slutty LI club clothes).
17: was I smart before I went to a TTT?
Fail = Elie had me giggling quite a bit. Nicely done, sir.
12 -
I guarantee you come back to see how much everyone thinks you suck.
Wow, those Yale kids sure do flatter themselves.
Grades matter. My firm has strict grade cutoffs for CLS and NYU (don't know about Harvard). This is a huge boost for Harvard. Harvard students are now in the position of transfer students at NYU or CLS as they are no longer subject to grade cutoffs. If CLS implemented this policy, students with B and B+ averages who formerly were going to places like Stroock and Kaye Scholar would have a chance at DPW and Kirkland.
It matters because there is no stratification in the H-F system (no High Pass+), meaning that performance tends to be more generalized and "less accurate" (to the extent that grades accurately portray something--intelligence? skill?--over time, a proposition I think that most people would agree to). Also, the distribution of grades in the pass fail scheme is theoretically different (many more "passes" than C's or even B-'s in the old system). This tends to break down over time due to the normal pressures for grade inflation, but I think it still penalizes the first students who have a ton of mere "passes" on their transcripts, when they would have been in the top 30 or 40% of their class previously.
18, to your point (and in response to the commenter quoted in the article who suggested CLS and NYU would need to change to keep up), what goes around comes around.
Until around 10 years go CLS did have an "alternative" grading system. It was the following grades (with what were supposed to be the corresponding letter grades in parentheses):
E = Excellent (A+, A)
VG = Very Good (A-, B)
G = Good (B, B-)
P = Pass (C)
No GPA was calculated.
So what happened? Employers all assumed E = A, VG = B, G = C, P = D. As a result, there was a typical law student outcry for a more traditional grading system that would be better understood by employers, and CLS switched to letter grades.
In other words, CLS already tried this system, and switched when it didn't work as planned. So I guess you could say it is HLS that is going to "follow suit" 10 years later. If HLS does make the change, I would wager that within 5 to 7 years the student will be demanding a more traditional system.
24 -- Kirkland troll.
K&E = TTT
Elie to TT.
Elie, you have just moved up one tier in my book. Took long enough.
See, here's the problem. A numerical scale is, or at least gives the impression of being, a ratio scale. If you do absolutely nothing, you get a zero. The difference between a 4.0 and a 3.0 is the same as between a 3.0 and a 2.0.
This Epic Win/ Win/ Meh/ Epic Fail scale they're proposing doesn't really strike me as being a ratio... it's more of an interval. "Pass" is better than "Low Pass" but is the difference between "Pass" and "Low Pass" the same as between "Low Pass" and "Fail"? If it is, all you're doing is pegging the grade to a number, and going right from a 2.0 to a 0.0. Nothing's really changed.
And if you're not doing that, then what's the distribution?
On the other hand, this way you're taking something subjective ("this was really good work, but not spectacular...") and instead of forcing it arbitrarily into a small category ("...I'll give it a B+. Or should it be an A-?"), you're keeping it subjective ("...this is easy: High Pass!")
This is crap that no one cares about!!!
this is intended to benefit those lower in the class, from those outside the top 10% down to those in the "top 65%." Obviously the ones who are getting fucked are those who would've had a B+ average- they are often indistinguishable from C and C+ students now.
Grade inflation only does so much when students are ranked. This scheme allows Harvard to blur the picture, and is an attempt to boost middling students' chances at clerkships and top-firm jobs.
The truly exceptional students, and the truly bad ones, will always stand out. Oddly though this new policy creates certain disincentives to work hard.
Yale and Stanford can get away with this to a degree but their classes are MUCH smaller than Harvard's. Still- judges and hiring committees know how to look at a transcript from Stanford or Yale to figure out who's really worked in class.
I predict a lot of bumps as firms adjust to this, not all of them favorable to HLS students.
If GULC were to give out a "book prize" would it be a John Grisham novel or would they have to dip down into the Clifford: The Big Red Dog series?
Props to you for the Fail = Elie joke.
Addendum:
JONC = Hope Winters
(Jump Off Nearest Cliff)
First: the poll is wrong. Stanford is contemplating having both "honors" grades and book prizes.
Berkeley's grading system differs from Yale's insofar as there is (a) a High Honors (HH) grade for the top 10% and (b) course prizes for receiving either the first or second highest score in the class. Stanford's book system is effectively a HH grade with a 7% cutoff.
The conventional wisdom is that Honors/Pass systems benefit the top and bottom 25% to the disadvantage of the middle 50%. It's easy to see if you have consistently high grades (lots of Hs). And you get covered if you are at the bottom. Bit it's hard to distinguish yourself if it's a mix of Ps and some Hs.
The chief merit of a honors/pass system is that it doesn't easily equate to GPA. Of course, that's not really true. For example, Berkeley does a calculation for Coif which is "HH=5, H=3, P=2." In other words, it's most important to get HHs. HLS would have to come up with some system if it wants to keep honors; Stanford looks like it is truly abandoning rankings by getting rid of coif.
The point of all this is that firms don't really look at honors grades as HH=A, H=B, etc. But you can still see who has done better and who has done worse. The HLS grads at Proskauer would not magically be at DPW with an Honors system. But the new system does effectively decrease the grade focus by making it a little less tangible.
One thing that hasn't been highlighted yet is that with the P/F system at HLS, the 2L Fall OCI process may really screw the folks who came from state schools in the . That is something that Kagan needs to be concerned about.
If everyone has P's, the select law firms in Fall 2L year might decide to hire all the former Princeton/Harvard/Stanford undergrads (passing over the kids who graduated from state schols) -- figuring that that's an OK proxy for whatever they're looking for.
Or maybe this will cut the other way and they'll put a lot of stock in the only set of real grades that they have anymore (the undergrad grades). In which case they'll maybe get really excited about the state school kids with straight A+'s and skip over the Harvard undergrad B+ transcripts.
Either way this is going to be an issue.
Utilizing this new system, JT will rank the chicks JT has recently banged:
Honors: Alyssa Milano, Jessica Biel, Kathie Gifford. All three would get jobs at Wacthell.
Pass: Cameron Diaz, Stacey "Fergie" Furgeson, Jenna Dewan, Scarlett Johansson. All would get jobs at Cravath.
Low Pass: Tatyana Ali (Will Smith tried to kill JT four times), Janet Jackson (not as freaky as one would think), Staci Flood, Veronica Finn. Maybe Staff Attorney positions at Paul, Weiss for this group.
Fail: Britney Spears. No explanation needed. Doc review!
12 = Nova Southeastern rejecTTT who attends St. Thomas University school of law and is afraid to raise his hand in class.
What is going to happen to HLS' summa-magna-cum laude distinctions?
Stanford copied Berkeley.
"Elite" law students coddled, take non-germane classes, can't write well, and are still given cushy six figure jobs after "graduating"...more about white privilege at 11.
One thing 31 doesn't realize is that no one at HLS gets C's right now. Grades are B, B+, A-, and A. Very few A+'s or B-'s. The P's will blend the B, B+, and A- students together. Law review and other extracurricular memberships (including where one went to undergrad) will become the primary distinguishing things for firms. Judges may start caring a lot more about rec's, meaning that competition for RA positions and "gunning" in class will become more intense.
Well, I know UPenn gives out "No Ordinary Joe: the Biography of Joe Paterno."
I laughed out loud at that. My icy heart toward Elie just melted a little. BUT JUST A LITTLE.
HOW DOES THIS AFFECT ASSOCIATES AT WILDMANN?
43 -- UPenn State gives out book awards?
my high school switched to a no-grade system, it was no big deal.
Let's be serious. This isn't going to change a damn thing...even for NYU and CLS.
NYU, CLS (like HLS) are so huge they need grades. They're factories.
No option in the poll for "Chicago: Entirely inscrutable arbitrary numbers"?
50 - I'm at V5, and I've interviewed several Chicago kids now. I still can't figure them out. I'd hire CLS, NYU, Boalt, UMich over them.
51 = subtle U Mich troll
Do UMich State or UPenn State have similiar grading systems to HYS?
I just want to know where the elite public schools stand on this.
It's also important to note that changing the HLS grading system also means that the Law Review selection process will need to be changed, too.
Clearly HLS is going to have to adopt some kind of ranking system (like they have currently).
I propose that the LSAC change their LSAT scoring system, in order to reduce stress and competitiveness, and ensure that everyone gets into Harvard (the DPW of law schools).
Old scores of 165 to 180: Honors
Old scores of 135 to 165: Pass
Old scores of 125 to 135: Low Pass
Old scores of 120 to 125: Fail
A LSAT taker won't know the actual score of 175 that he got, but merely that he is an Honors recipient.
I'm sure the Harvard students and faculty will be greatly applauding this move.
54- HLS hasn't ranked since 1967
Fail = Elie, indeed.
56-Wrong. HLS (Hofstra Law School) still ranks.
56-Wrong. HLS (Hofstra Law School) still ranks.
-- Hofstra Summa
56: Of course Harvard ranks students.
(1) They award graduation awards (cum laude and magna c.l.) based on being in the top 40%/10% of the class.
(2) The Sears Prize and Fay Diploma are awarded to people with the highest averages (which you get by ranking).
(3) HLR has a grade component to membership selection, which also requires rankings.
What you mean to say is that the school doesn't release rankings to students. But that's not the same as saying that there is no rankings at all. HLS will still have to come up with a grading system to translate Honors/Pass grades into a rank-able "GPA."
60, please see 58 and 59.
61, sorry that you have been confused. This is a thread discussing ABA-approved law schools like those at Harvard, Yale, and other universities.
62. I am not confused. HLS = Hofstra Law School, from which I graduated summa with legitimate letter-based grades. I'm a genious.
62, I wasn't aware that correspondence schools gave out letter grades. Congratulations! Although I don't think that it's really fair to get summa distinctions based on online multiple choices exams.
Are you allowed to take the bar exam in any state other than California?
Wow, ATL has a crazy pro-Yale bias. My guess is that it's because it's Lat's alma mater and because it's student-driven. One thing about being young is believing that selectivity is equivalent to excellence. At this point I could offer some aphoristic metaphor about relative entry barriers to the KKK vs being a sit-in participant, but I don't think any amount of exhortation could shed some of you of this view.
HLS's size is predicated on the idea of network effects - that having a large collection of of minds circulating in a common community - has an independent value worth preserving. You are right that if it wanted to be #1 in the US news rankings and have its obnoxious students have the luxury of making snide comments about their greatness, it could do so simply by halving its class size.
This is ultimately why I don't at all think this is at all about competing for top students and their fragile egos. Anyone who has even has cursory knowledge of American legal history knows that American law was largely shaped by the minds who studied at HLS, with other schools playing tangential roles at best. Being part of that tradition is why I chose it over Yale.
HLS '01
Excellent post, Elie :-)
Everyone knows how honors at HLS are given out: to people who take easy classes.
If some Harvard kid tries to impress you by telling you he graduated magna, do not fall for it unless you see his transcript and it features real law classes.
67 - so THAT'S how Obama graduated Magna at HLS?
Wah wah wah I work somewhere lower down the Vault list... Do you have a job? Do you make good money? Do you enjoy it? Then quit your bitching and get back to work!
boalt pwns