GULC Me Mick. GULC Me.
Grade inflation happens at lot of schools. Maybe even most of them. But when a prominent professor and alumna calls your grading system “such a fraud,” well that is a school we should all be lucky enough to attend.
Some highlights for people that cannot watch YouTube at work:
Van Susteren: Have you ever graded? It really is disturbing that it affects people’s lives the way it does when it is so … subjective.”
It is “disturbing” that you know how important it is, yet throw up your hands and just “give everybody A’s”
More highlights after the jump.
You have to also listen to the guy who taught at American University:
I really wanted to give all A’s, but there were some students who took advantage of the professor, did not come to class, and showed up the last day of class and expected an A from Ted Williams, and it was not happening.
Way to have standards Professor Williams. (Full disclosure: I took advantage of professors, didn’t go to class, and showed up on the last day expecting an A. It was happening! Good thing I didn’t go to American.)
On second thought, don’t pay too much attention to Williams in this clip. He’s kind of an embarrassment to … human thought.
Van Susteren also thinks that most of the students at Georgetown were smarter than her. I don’t know what to make of that. But her respect for Georgetown knows no bounds:
This may be a little bit bizarre, but in a setting, at least at Georgetown, if someone is not doing well, I think it’s the professor’s fault. The people there pay a lot of money, and they’re very aggressive and they’re hard workers.
So that’s the ticket. As long as you are a rich, diligent, asshole, you’ll have a stunning transcript coming out of GULC.
Greta Calls Law School Grading a “Fraud” — She Gave “Almost Everybody” A’s at Georgetown [Tax Prof Blog]
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Comments
first to be confused...
This article is unintelligble.
nice postings
#29 from the prior post summarizes it best.
agreed, 2
Does Elie inhale some sort of propellant before he posts? "...for people that cannot..." Basic writing schools are obviously not important at the first tier schools.
This doesn't make any sense.
Huh?
I find the act of GULCing to be absolutely offensive and against nature. To those habitual GULCers out there, cease your heresy immediately or suffer the wrath of the Madras Mafia.
6 - apparently basic writing skills are not important at your school.
Elie, I think past critics have been overly harsh.
Nevertheless, I respectfully request that you re-read your postings before posting them or have someone else do so. Your syntax and mistakes in this post are distractingly bad. For example, here you use "alumni" as a reference to a single person. Since that person is a woman, it should be alumna.
The people who read this blog get paid to parse words. Sure, this is a blog, not a judicial opinion. But please show some respect for your audience and write at a higher level. Thank you.
Xoxo,
Loyal ATL reader, Elie defender
Just adding the lead in that the TaxProf used would have made this story make much more sense: "Fox's Greta Van Susteren (J.D. & LL.M., Georgetown), who has taught several classes at Georgetown, goes off on a four-minute riff on law school grading, calling it a "fraud":"
I like where ATL's head is at in wanting to open the debate about GULC. (i.e. people who go there vs. everyone else who knows better)
The shoddy post, however, really takes away from the true target here - GULCers with over-inflated egos and undersized man pieces.
#2, I don't think this counts as an article. What is it even about?
Although I am not very familiar with the school's reputation, why is GULC continually an object of derision in comments on this blog?
I've graded a lot of papers, and it is pretty easy to give Bs. It does hurt people, but you gotta have some degree of thick skin to teach anywhere. I've had grade appeals where people call me racist, sexist, an idiot, a liar, etc. It's so much easier to give out all As, tell everyone that they're all winners, and move on. But that's not what grading is about, especially when there's talk of a curve.
Soilent GULCers ... they are made out of people!
UVA2L
so....basically someone who said "grading is a fraud b/c it is impossible to tell an A- from an A" means that GULC has grade inflation?
Regardless of where someone attended school, I think this statement is universally applicable.
not digging the "elie the editor writing articles as if he were a commenter" thing. he really has not earned the right to call himself a commenter.
"Rich, diligent, asshole"? "Asshole" is an adjective now? PROOFREAD, Motherf^cker!!!
Thank you, Elie, for more GULCfuel for the GULCfire!!!
Now, another post on UPenn State law and we're off to the comment races on another slow workday!!!
As a 3L gulcer, I can tell you we have a pretty tough curve and profs stick to it with few exceptions.
All of this is relative. Sure, if you are at the bottom of the class you are going to get B-'s. Some people might call that grade inflation, but it doesn't really matter. Those with a B- average are going to have a hard time making any journals, getting callbacks, getting offers and making anything of themselves after law school. So those B-'s are just as bad as D's or F's. Firms, journals and the government are not fooled by a transcript full of B-'s, even though mom and dad might be.
I could actually use a post about berkley and how their 163-170 Lsat range qualifies them to be considered a T10 school
Another person who agrees with 2. If you are relying on a youtube clip (which I cant view) to explain your writing, that is a bad sign. Whats the take home point here? My guess is that there is grade inflation at Gtown, but I really have no idea.
20 - proofread your proofreads, as, "asshole" is used as a noun, modified by the adjectives, "rich" and "diligent"
What's a GULC? Is this the law school that moved from Michigan to Florida?
GULC > UPENN STATE > UVA
I graded memos at a school substantially better than GULC, and I could definitely tell the difference between an A, an A-, and a B+.
Greta is actually quite complementary about the students at GULC. She's just complaining about the grading system.
STOP making fun of GULC. I did not pay $150,000 to be made fun of. It's ultra prestigious.
Nothing pissed me off more in law school than senile professors who thought their "teaching" was a gift to humanity. You know, the ones who took attendance in every class, and then dropped off two-page letters in your mailbox after you missed five classes, going on and on about how you are going to fail in life if you don't improve your attendance. In fact, there should be a post where we get to out the douchebags for the benefit of future generations.
GULC has great placement in Bratislava - that's why I went there over HYS.
Dear ATL readers,
Lat is disrespecting you by continuing to post that Hope Winters bullshit. He only does it because he knows that everybody hates it and that it will get a ton of comments and site traffic. In essence, he has no moral qualms about annoying his readers to get what he wants. For that reason, you guys should boycott this site. Also, stop posting about how much you hate Hope Winters on the Hope Winters thread, because that will only encourage Lat to post more.
25, you're an idiot.
Shiny, red ball
NOT
Shiny, red, ball
Get it? Or do you need to repeat 3rd grade, you underachieving document monkey?
-Not 20
25, You are a moron, but try to answer this anyway. Which sentence is correct:
1. Mystal is a lazy, talentless, fat, person.
2. Mystal is a lazy, talentless, fat person.
Now think about how stupid you are for a while...
Much appreciated, 34.
20/35
Even in small seminar classes GULC professors are not allowed to give all As. They publish the grade distribution for every class on Student Access, so you can see what percentage of students got any particular grade and I can tell you there is definitely a curve.
#6 - what is a basic writing school?
i just pwned you.
GULC traditionally has had a very tough, strict curve. Until 2005 or 2006, the median grade was a B (meaning half the grades given were B or lower). And bunching was not allowed - it was a curve - so the prof had to give a certain number of B- 's and C's. After I left, they bumped it up a few points so that it was on par with the higher curves at Duke, Harvard, Penn, Uva, etc. But when I was there, it sucked because employers who had gone to the other schools did not know that a 3.0 at Gtown was equivalent to a 3.4 at Duke. If you had a 3.4, you were in the top 20% of the class.
GULC traditionally has had a very tough, strict curve. Until 2005 or 2006, the median grade was a B (meaning half the grades given were B or lower). And bunching was not allowed - it was a curve - so the prof had to give a certain number of B- 's and C's. After I left, they bumped it up a few points so that it was on par with the higher curves at Duke, Harvard, Penn, Uva, etc. But when I was there, it sucked because employers who had gone to the other schools did not know that a 3.0 at Gtown was equivalent to a 3.4 at Duke. If you had a 3.4, you were in the top 20% of the class.
GULC traditionally has had a very tough, strict curve. Until 2005 or 2006, the median grade was a B (meaning half the grades given were B or lower). And bunching was not allowed - it was a curve - so the prof had to give a certain number of B- 's and C's. After I left, they bumped it up a few points so that it was on par with the higher curves at Duke, Harvard, Penn, Uva, etc. But when I was there, it sucked because employers who had gone to the other schools did not know that a 3.0 at Gtown was equivalent to a 3.4 at Duke. If you had a 3.4, you were in the top 20% of the class.
"It is 'disturbing' that you know how important it is, yet throw up your hands and just "give everybody A's"" -- there should be a period after the "s" -- Elie can you hire a summer associate already to edit your worl?
GULC traditionally has had a very tough, strict curve. Until 2005 or 2006, the median grade was a B (meaning half the grades given were B or lower). And bunching was not allowed - it was a curve - so the prof had to give a certain number of B- 's and C's. After I left, they bumped it up a few points so that it was on par with the higher curves at Duke, Harvard, Penn, Uva, etc. But when I was there, it sucked because employers who had gone to the other schools did not know that a 3.0 at Gtown was equivalent to a 3.4 at Duke. If you had a 3.4, you were in the top 20% of the class.
42- can you hire someone to punch you in the face? worl?
This post has the potential to be good, but it is hard to follow because Elie leaves out some of the background and throws us right into the middle of the story.
I think # 12 diagnosed it correctly -- the post needs more of a lead-in to give it context and explain what the heck it is about. We get that its about law school grading, but what the YouTube clip and Greta have to do with it isn't clear until you have read the whole thing and some of the comments too.
I agree with Greta. Grading can be very subjective, especially in smaller seminar courses. And at a non-top 10 school, grading greatly impacts one's future. A student with a 3.0 from GULC is going to struggle to get a job and wind up making 50k a year and a student with a 3.7 is going to work at DPW. I think her point is that it sucks to pay 150k for an education and wind up struggling to find a job because you have a 3.0 GPA after competing with students with one of the highest median LSATs of any law school and dealing with subjective grading. And regardless of their grades, the vast majority of GULC students are aggressive and hard-working like Greta says. What's Elie's point??
Wow... B- at the bottom of the class? No wonder GULC has a reputation for whiners. My school is definitely regional. And we have a C curve. And not too many students with an over-inflated sense of self. And has the highest bar passage rate in the state. Go fig.
Damn, boy ... You went full GULC. You never go full GULC. Hell, you shouldn't go GULC at all. Tis against nature. Now get your god damn GULC out of Skadden's gay ass and go back to serving happy meals.
Supersize me, bitch!
GULC IS THE BEST SCHOOL! (that I could get in to)
R.I.P. ATL.
R.I.P.
Can someone suggest some legal blogs that don't suck? I would like to quit reading ATL because of the massive suckitude ushered in by the Elie era, but need something else to get my several-times-daily fix of lawyers making snarky comments at each other. Anyone have anything good?
grade inflation only matters at lower first tier or second tier schools anyway.
in a T20 school, you get a job no matter what your grade is. so who cares if they're As or Bs.
now at a 80-40 ranked school, grade inflation would screw you because you NEED to be visibly in the top 10% to even be considered.
so who cares if there's grade inflation at GULC? or Harvard? or Yale for that matter? they should all just go the way of Stanford and pass/fail every class and quite pretending their grades are relevant.
51 -- You should just read your GULC alumni blog and strive not to suck so much.
Sincerely Yours Truly,
-Suck it, Mystal.
52 = TTT for mentioning GULC in the same breath as Harvard / Yale / Stanford. Heresy.
That's IT! I will ding every GULC and UPenn State applicanttt in my V2 firm.
Imagine what Greta would think if she graded students from a top 10 law school.
Grade inflation is not nearly as problematic as cheating. Somewhere between 40-50% of law students have cheated during their 3 years. You can get your lawyer parents to help you with papers, form study groups after receiving a take-home exam, if you have a floating exam with a short time limit you can ask a friend who takes it early in the exam period to send you a copy of the questions, or bring in prohibited materials (a person behind me in the bar exam did this, was turned in, and was not disciplined). And of course there's the 10-20% of students who abuse adderall. Grade inflation is small potatoes compared to how much cheating screws up grading on a curve.
Don't get me wrong, I blame my bad grades on being lazy and not giving a shit. But, it sucks to know that I could have worked really hard and still gotten screwed out of the grade I deserved because cheaters ruined the curve. I'm outraged on behalf of alternate-reality me. Or...would be outraged, but I'm still lazy and don't give a shit.
51, Faced with the same problem, I found that these here jackasses have the market for legal snark well-cornered. bitterlawyer.com shows promise, but it's not there yet.
Why is Greta's face crooked? Did she get GULCed too many times in the face or is she just a natural GULC beauty?
Concerned in Gowanus
I love that there are more posts on Elie's grammar and writing style than there are on topics I was interested in like the Amlaw midlevel satisfaction survey.
56 and 59 = Comments of the Day
Law school should just adopt the b-school model for grades. I went to GULC and while the curve was very nice compared to lesser schools, it also was a joke. Unless you got lucky you were getting a B probably. It really wasn't worth the extra effort to try to get anything higher, which would require a ton more work. All curves are simply artificial measures of a person's intelligence. Just scrap grades. Law students should be judged purely on the quality of their school.
What happened to Greta's face is no joke nor is the very real fact that GULCers are looming around every corner waiting to do to our faces what befell Greta's.
Haha . . . people who rip on GULC
1.) Students in lower tiered schools who hide behind the anonymity of Above the Law
2.) Students at schools ranked 15-20 who think their school (Vanderbilt, UCLA, etc.) deserves to be ranked higher
3.) Students in higher ranked schools who aren’t near the top of their class and are uncomfortable with themselves (tear . . . I didn’t make journal)
52: I agree that for most people at the elite schools grades aren't too important. If you want to make $160k, you'll find someone willing to pay you. But if you want to go for that elusive 100% bonus, grades are going to matter a lot. Some firms won't look at the middle of the class at even top schools.
64 -- I rip on GULC because Xenu warned me that GULC was the enemy.
PS -- I was a Georgetown undergrad and know first hand how much they suck.
My name is Matt R. Now suck it anonymously.
Apparently Harvard educations are a fraud too. Good grief Mystal, you're terrible.
38 - pwned? You must be a gamer. Sweet!!!
For 64 -
4.) People who know how shitty GULC is, especially compared to the rumored "prestigious image" GULC-ers hide behind.
5.) Your mom
6.) Your mom's girlfriend
I would never hire a lawyer that used the term "pwned."
What does "pwned" mean?
71, you simply prove that you're not 733t haxor.
"When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed," Biden told Couric. "He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'"
Did Biden go to GULC?
That's Wolverines with a capital w.
Biden was GULCed the same way Greta was GULCed, hard and to the face.
FUCK YOU DOUCHEBAGS. ALL OF YOU DOUCHEBAGS. IN THE ASS WITH NO CONDOM. RAW DOG
72, it's spelled l337, or l33t
Trig Palin to GULC!!!
64, Thank you for pointing out that abovethelaw's comments are full of anonymous insecure assholes. Nobody knew that.
It is not true that going to a "top 20" school gets you a biglaw job regardless of grades. Ask anyone that attends schools that have been in the top 20 in the past couple years, like GW or UMN. Not even close.
Once again, Elie fails at a post and at life, in general.
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Once again, Elie fails at a post and at life, in general.
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Grade inflation is a huge part of law school especially at the top tier schools. While I’m sure every law school has their share of students who take advantage of professors, I can attest to the fact that the administration at American University, Washington College of Law (WCL), took a dim view of those students and encouraged professors to limit the number of A’s they awarded to students.
Unlike many law schools, many professors at WCL followed this mantra. As a recent graduate of American, I witnessed a first year contracts professor awarded only one student an A in the whole section of 89 students while giving forty percent ‘C’s or approximately 36 ‘C’s. (Talk about old school, the test was a four and a half hour, closed book, handwritten exam.) I didn’t get a ‘C’ in the class, but I still queried the professor for an explanation. The professor explained. “One exam was so perfect that giving any other exam an ‘A’ would have been a travesty.” While many including myself disagreed with the professor’s reasoning, the administration told many disgruntled students that grading was within the professor’s prerogative and the administration would not change any grades unless requested by the professor. A few weeks later, I visited a friend at U. Penn’s law school and happened to notice a sheet posted outside of the registrar’s office. The sheet listed the first semester grades for the entire 1L class across all four subjects. Across all subjects and the entire class only seventeen ‘C’s were given.
As my friend explained, “This is U Penn, professor’s never give ‘C’s.”
Grade inflation is a huge part of law school especially at the top tier schools. While I’m sure every law school has their share of students who take advantage of professors, I can attest to the fact that the administration at American University, Washington College of Law (WCL), took a dim view of those students and encouraged professors to limit the number of A’s they awarded to students.
Unlike many law schools, many professors at WCL followed this mantra. As a recent graduate of American, I witnessed a first year contracts professor awarded only one student an A in the whole section of 89 students while giving forty percent ‘C’s or approximately 36 ‘C’s. (Talk about old school, the test was a four and a half hour, closed book, handwritten exam.) I didn’t get a ‘C’ in the class, but I still queried the professor for an explanation. The professor explained. “One exam was so perfect that giving any other exam an ‘A’ would have been a travesty.” While many including myself disagreed with the professor’s reasoning, the administration told many disgruntled students that grading was within the professor’s prerogative and the administration would not change any grades unless requested by the professor. A few weeks later, I visited a friend at U. Penn’s law school and happened to notice a sheet posted outside of the registrar’s office. The sheet listed the first semester grades for the entire 1L class across all four subjects. Across all subjects and the entire class only seventeen ‘C’s were given.
As my friend explained, “This is U Penn, professor’s never give ‘C’s.”
It is not true that going to a "top 20" school gets you a biglaw job regardless of grades. Ask anyone that attends schools that have been in the top 20 in the past couple years, like GW or UMN. Not even close.
I'm a GULC graduate and I call BS on the grade inflation. Here are the grade distributions for my 1L classes.
Property
A 9.7%
A- 15.6%
B+ 26.8%
B 28.3%
B- 14.1%
C+ 5.2%
Contracts
A 10.4%
A- 14.4%
B+ 24.8%
B 33.6%
B- 12.0%
C+ 1.6%
C 2.4%
C- .8%
Civ Pro
A 13.3%
A- 16.5%
B+ 26.7%
B 29.1%
B- 10.2%
C+ .7%
C 2.3%
C- .7%
Torts
A 10.2%
A- 16.5%
B+ 23.6%
B 30.7%
B- 17.3%
D 1.5%
Con Law I
A 11.7%
A- 14.7%
B+ 29.4%
B 35.2%
B- 8.8%
Criminal Justice
A 10.1%
A- 15.6%
B+ 27.3%
B 35.1%
B- 8.5%
C+ 3.1%
#86 - If you actually went to GULC you'd know that Criminal Justice is not a 1L class.
#86 = § 1 gunner????
and yes, crim justice is a 1L class.
87 - criminal justice is a 1L class.
87 - Criminal Justice is a 1L class. It's the same class as criminal procedure in other schools.
88 - Me? Gunner? Far from it. I was more than happy to be invisible (at least I tried to be).
86
83 - Sounds like Baker?
83/84 - Sounds like Baker?
86, your distributions are fairly top heavy. Does GULC post the numbers for mandatory curves, or is the curve 100% prof discretion?
GULC = HYS = whiny little children
94 -- Blasphemy! Never mention clear TTTs, such as GULC and UPenn State, in the same breath as HYS.
GULC has so many adjuncts w/ really small classes that do not need to stick to a curve; some students game the system this way but not many. But Greta cannot possibly know anything about law school grading at Gtown in general??! Rather, just what adjuncts think... FunkFace Greta wasn't teaching 1Ls...
Anyway, law school grading is a sham to cover up for the fact that there are too many law students, and too many law schools making money, for the market demand.
GULC has so many adjuncts w/ really small classes that do not need to stick to a curve; some students game the system this way but not many. But Greta cannot possibly know anything about law school grading at Gtown in general??! Rather, just what adjuncts think... FunkFace Greta wasn't teaching 1Ls...
Anyway, law school grading is a sham to cover up for the fact that there are too many law students, and too many law schools making money, for the market demand.
Have we established whether GULC is a TTT or not?
-- UVA2L
Pay a lot of money doesn't necessarily mean rich (as in rich, diligent, asshole (I think there should be a pause in front of that comma so I purposefully place it there! Miss Grammar be damned) Anyway, it means take out a lot of loans in many cases. And GW's tuition is on par w/ GULC, no? And what are the kids paying at American? As I recall, it's all fairly similar- 30k here and 40k there, and pretty soon we're talking real money.
This is absolutely the most BS interview I've ever heard. Granted I'm only a 2L and most research is now done online, but GULC is not a "rip the pages from the books" douchebag kind of place. There's a lot of hate on this site, but considering I'll be walking a way with a better job than most of you (read: whatever job I want), I'm not to worried about it.
And #66 (Matt R.): You took a Georgetown diploma. So my question is...can we have it back?
There's a wikipedia entry that posts the curves...ah, google...GULC's curve is 3.17, which is lower than every school ranked above it (those that rank) and some schools ranked below it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_school_GPA_curves
Wait, before the grammar police show up, I didn't proofread. It's "too worried."
Wait, before the grammar police show up, I didn't proofread. It's "too worried."
100
I went to GULC and I'm not rich. But I do have six figure loans. But an acquaintance of mine owes more money and went to Catholic (which actually cost a couple hundred more than GULC).
I'm not usually one to rail on people for using a split infinitive, but we have the rule because it can make sentences just feel awkward.
"You have to also listen to the guy who taught at American University:"
Meda confirmation that GULC = top ten school.
Suck it Cornell.
47- I'm guessing that when you say your school is regional you mean that it cannot attract people from outside the state. Congratulations, your school doesn't have the name or rank to attract top students (from anywhere). Also, highest bar passage? What a joke. Schools that advertise highest bar passage are schools that teach Barbri. Those aren't law schools. Those are $150,000 study courses that last 3 years. Further, it means that those schools teach to their state bar, rather than teaching to think. Students at GULC can and do take bars throughout the country and pass them, even though GULC doesn't teach to ANY bar.
So, which school do you attend?
GULC owns every other school out there. HYS = Touro = University of Baltimore
GULC's official curve:
10% A
15% A-
25% B+
30% B
15% B-
5% C+ or below.
It's available somewhere on the GULC website if you care to find it.
There's a small dollop of professorial discretion in that curve, but for 1L courses and most major 2L courses (Corp, Evidence), not very much. There's room to game things in 2L and 3L years if that's your priority and you're willing to have an odd looking transcript.
"Grade inflation" doesn't mean much except to laypeople. Employers know to keep an eye out for "top 33%" on the resume. They get a feel for things, at the least, by doing 20 EIW screening interviews and getting 20 different data points. What really matters (for employers purposes, anyway) is that there is a reasonably predictable 1L curve that holds true across sections, and that the class gets "sorted" into a hierarchy.
GULCers compete, like everyone else outside the SY ivory towers. No one I know has seen any ripped pages or jerk behavior. People are generally friendly though, sure, there are a few who act like a mother bear protecting her cubs if you ask for a week of their notes--- but those people are the 10% exception, not the 90% rule.
The subject of "It was happening!" is ambiguous.
66, If you were indeed a Hoya undergrad, how do you claim to have "first-hand knowledge" of GULC's alleged suckiness? They're not even on the same campus and undergrads have no reason to travel across the city to the Law Center, at the intersection of Cracktown and Murderville.
111- Plus the undergrad people are known to be way douchier and dumber.