Thelen is lame.

Second sentence after the first highlighted passage:

"But the loses are adding up for Thelen."

I know you are firing these things out, but 'losses' is proofreading, not spell checking.

Relax, take a moment, and proofread.

Oh, and Thelen is done.

I am so giving my best thanksgiving-day-thanks that I got laid off in March.

I thought Thelen merged with Strooook.

It's amazing they've survived this long, really.

Next up? CWT.

The other Lou Bevilacqua, any relation to Lou Bevilacqua?

MysTTTal is TTTerrible.

ummm...yes.

7 - that was my first thought...

Bailout just failed to pass the House.

You can't always get what you want...

Sounds like he wanted the email to be forwarded to ATL....

Wonder why that e-mail wasn't sent firm-wide, or at least all domestic offices? Is there any reason to keep other offices out of the loop?

Or is possible that some of the better Thelen offices outside SF, such as Thelen SV, might entirely move over to another firm and not continue merger talks?

What does this mean for associates at WILDMAN HARROLD? Would someone please tell me what this means for WILDMAN HARROLD?

Cheema to 190K!

SF legal market to Nashville legal market!

(Though it is the coolest city in the US. Sorry, NY.)

The four departing partners had significant business. This will make Thelen even less attractive to a merger partner (not that any firm seems to be interested in merging with Thelen, anyway). Thelen will be gone in a month.

To those remaining 'loyal' Thelen associates, you are about to learn the true rewards of loyalty. If you want a preview of what's coming, just ask one of the loyal Heller associates who stuck by their firm hoping for a merger. To those precious few Thelen associates with half a brain, get out now and watch from a safe place as your loyal colleagues are lead to the slaughter. But with so many Heller resumes on the street now, you probably don't have a chance to escape.

Yes.

Any firm that loses the majority of its name partners is pwn3d.

Yes.

Any firm that loses the majority of its name partners is pwn3d.

It may survive in some form or manage to glom on to some functioning firm, but if I were a TRP associate, I wouldn't hang around to find out.

Word is Nixon-Thelen is off. No word on how far Bryan Cave-Thelen is progressing though.

To those suggesting we get out now, where would you suggest we go?

22: You and the other Thelen associates should go to your state's unemployment office to see what kind of benefits you will shortly be eligible to receive.

Nixon Thelen isn't off.

Wildman Harrold Thelen to $190k!

24 tells us "Nixon Thelen isn't off." How many months does Nixon have to put Thelen off before even management as dense as Thelen's gets the message that there is no real interest in a merger? Nixon might take a few partners from a Thelen as it fails, and that is the only merger Thelen will see with Nixon.

Nixon Thelen isn't off and the departure of the China group is not going to affect those discussions. The likelihood of this move has been known for a while.

Nixon Thelen isn't off and the departure of the China group is not going to affect those discussions. The likelihood of this move has been known for a while.

The House inexplicably failed to pass the biggest bill in our lifetimes, the market is down almost 500 points, and Elie is posting about the potential failure of some law firm nobody cares about.

Way to stay relevant ATL!

The fundamentals of our Thelen are strong.

Its not 20 attorneys in China - its a 20 attorney China group in three different offices. Losing the China Group in DC is big - that office hasn't taken a hit yet, and without them, you're basically only left with Construction.

Doubtful a merger is going to happen. I think the construction group will split off into its own firm under the Thelen name. The other attorneys (or what is left of them) will scramble to other firms...

I thought the Bevilacqua kid bought it in the first season.

The China group departure was most certainly a surprise to Thelen management. When the recent partner departures occurred, Thelen management downplayed it by bragging about how good its remaining practice groups were, including the China practice. They would not have done that had it been known that the China practice were about to jump ship.

The Nixon Thelen talks are in the late stages.

The fundamentals of our Thelen are strong.

Please shut up, r29. Please.

Squire Sanders is next

Nixon and Thelen are actually a good match.

29: are you kidding? the thelen stuff is EXACTLY what ATL should be reporting. there are myriad sources of info on the other stuff. or is this where you come to get all your news?

The Nixon Thelen talks have supposedly been in the 'late stages' for months. No merger is going to happen, ever. If Nixon Thelen talks were going to bear fruit, the recent partner departures would not have happened. Nixon would have no reason to merge with Thelen when it can just cherry pick the few remaining productive partners from its erstwhile merger partner as Thelen fails.

Right on, 36! I like that.

Squire Sanders is next

Enough about Thelen. How does this impact Heller?

Nobody on this board has any idea what's actually happening with Thelen. The speculation here is ridiculous and a waste of time. The truth is that the talks are in the late stages and nobody outside upper management knows more than that right now.

All your base are belong to us.

Of the four partners leaving for Pillsbury I happen to know that two of them are above all of the bullshit that goes on there.

As for Thelen Reid, it's a snake pit. Good riddance to them I say.

Effing TTTiano...

44: it is not true that nobody has any idea what's actually happening with Thelen. We know that partners are leaving in droves, and have been for quite some time. We know that the firm has been attempting to find a merger partner since the BRS merger went bad, and several BRS partners with business left. We know that no firm has merged with Thelen despite over a year of searching. We know that management is so pressed to find a solution that it felt compelled to send out that BS email to tell everyone to have a good weekend. From this, we can deduce that, like what happened with Heller, Thelen is headed for dissolution. The only variable is when it will fail, not if.

Everytime a group of lawyers leave, there is always that Thelen associate who writes, inevitably, that it was no surprise and it'll have no effect on Thelen (probably the same associate who is staying behind because of "loyalty"). Would the ever prescient (and optimistic) Thelen assocate please tell us, right now, what non-surprising and non-important departure will take place in the 3 weeks to come?

Everytime a group of lawyers leaves, there is always that Thelen associate who writes, inevitably, that it was no surprise and it'll have no effect on Thelen (probably the same associate who is staying behind because of "loyalty"). Would the ever prescient (and optimistic) Thelen assocate please tell us, right now, what non-surprising and non-important departure will take place in the 3 weeks to come?

Everytime a group of lawyers leaves, there is always that Thelen associate who writes, inevitably, that it was no surprise and it'll have no effect on Thelen (probably the same associate who is staying behind because of "loyalty"). Would the ever prescient (and optimistic) Thelen assocate please tell us, right now, what non-surprising and non-important departure will take place in the 3 weeks to come?

48, sorry to burst your bubble, but you've fallen into the deep, dark, scary world of speculation. Your facts are correct, but what you deduce is mere speculation. A merger may well be imminent BUT WE MERE MORTALS JUST DON'T KNOW. That's the point.

bring back brmfs - best firm ever biatches

Here's a question about the email from the chair wishing everyone to have a good weekend. Why was it only sent to "SF Attorney and Staff'? Why wouldn't the chair send the email to all offices? Is this just typical Thelen bad management, or is that because the firm is going to ditch the other offices and just be a SF construction firm? Will the other offices just be closed?

Here's a question about the email from the chair wishing everyone to have a good weekend. Why was it only sent to "SF Attorney and Staff'? Why wouldn't the chair send the email to all offices? Is this just typical Thelen bad management, or is that because the firm is going to ditch the other offices and just be a SF construction firm? Will the other offices just be closed?

bring back brmfs - best firm ever biatches

32--nicely done.

What will happen to Thelen's Shanghai office? btw, whatever happened to its London office?

Nixon Thelen as a merger is off. Nixon may cherry-pick though.

- Thelen Insider

59, what's your source? I've heard otherwise.
-another Thelen insider.

Nixon Thelen as a merger is off. Nixon may cherry-pick though.

- Thelen Insider

60: 59 here. Source is partners in "my" office.

59/62, which office are you in? I'm in NY.
-60

dissolution is a long way off.

dissolution is a long way off.

dissolution is a long way off.

while cogently written, this post lacks a basic understanding of the impact Thelen's decline has on WILDMAN HARROLD.

while cogently written, this post lacks a basic understanding of the impact Thelen's decline has on WILDMAN HARROLD.

Awesome, 45.

This is as exciting as the influx from Arent Fox!

Squire Sanders is in trouble? It's not a great firm but I was always under the impression that it was well run.

Squire Sanders is in trouble? It's not a great firm but I was always under the impression that it was well run.

there are several firms who are struggling with departures. we are deep into a recession. what do you expect? some firms are just getting more publicity than others.

#58- The "London" office was comprised of 2 partners and an associate who all went to DLA Piper's London office.

Are any banks pulling Thelen's credit lines as a result of the departures? With the debt they took on from BRS, that would not be good.

59 here. In the jewel in the crown office. Not NY, DC, LA, SF, Northern NJ, or Hartford. Figure it out.

Nixon is off unless they get past a major conflicts issues. Could be back on if conflicts are resolved.

Thelen is resuming talks with two other unnamed firms, likely Bryan Cave and ??????? maybe the Thelen NY person could shed light on what that other firm is?

Who exactly is in this "approximately 20" attorney group going to Pillsbury? I mean T's "China Practice" lists more than 30 attorneys and includes Steve O'Neal...

Are you guys so bored with your jobs that you spend all day on these blogs talking about other firms?

Firms have stepped up their monitoring of internet useage and clearly those junior attorneys who have nothing better to do had better enjoy these blogs whilst they can before they get the bullet.

Are you guys so bored with your jobs that you spend all day on these blogs talking about other firms?

Firms have stepped up their monitoring of internet useage and clearly those junior attorneys who have nothing better to do had better enjoy these blogs whilst they can before they get the bullet.

78/79=sad, angry Thelen partner, staring forlornly into the abyss of his own demise.

Thelen China group:

attorneys = 15-20
revenue = $7.5 MM
all of the headaches and inflated egos = priceless

For everything else, they're now Pillsbury's headache.

Hope your liability insurance is paid up!

What is the significance of the Wildman Harrold references?

82: Just some moron, ignore it.

"Nixon is off unless they get past a major conflicts issues. Could be back on if conflicts are resolved.

Thelen is resuming talks with two other unnamed firms, likely Bryan Cave and ??????? maybe the Thelen NY person could shed light on what that other firm is?"

Confirmed. Do not know who either of the two other firms Thelen is talking to. But it is true that Nixon is off unless they can solve a major conflict issue.

cosign 80.

SF market to 190,000 pesos. Heller, then Thelen, then maybe Bingham or Pilsbury. Down. Down. Down.

HAHAHAH lawl @ 86. Bingham??? Bingham is not in any trouble financially...this is probably one of Bingham's strongest years yet

Thelen D.C. should close its doors, now that its "crown jewel" has exited the premises.

Pillsbury---sigh---sucks. Obtaining this group is akin to a Matt Millen draft pick.

81 got it right; the departing China practice is low-margin, lower supervision and high risk. Pillsbury just bought a big headache

When its other partners were departing, Thelen management tried to reassure the firm and the market by touting its remaining practices, including the China practice. Now, faced with the departure of the China group, suddenly it is described as a low margin headache. Which is it? Either the China group was worth something, and Thelen took a hit when they left, or the China group was worth nothing and Thelen management was lying when they bragged about having them after the other partner departures. Thelen has lost all credibility. The smartest thing they can do is admit their problems, and look to be acquired piecemeal by other firms (which is already happening now). Dissolution is almost a given now.

Don't know about high risk, but low margin seems evident for a 20 lawyer group generating $7.5M in revenues.

Thelen, as in legacy TMJB, will never dissolve so long as its construction practice stays together, and the latter has no reason not to, for a hole host of cultural, economic, historical reasons. The business model of TMJB had always been a constellatin of minor practices revolving around the nucleus of its construction practice, and it has worked fine for a century.

So, 92 thinks that legacy TMJB's construction practice will stay together, but who knows about any other part of the firm? That sounds a lot like dissolution to me, or it is at least close enough to dissolution that any Thelen associate not in the construction practice (or not in SF/SV) should be heading right away to the nearest headhunter resume in hand.

And, 91, Pillsbury, which surely did some due diligence on the group, must think that they are worth more than 7.5 million or they would not have made the hire. Although it represents $375K of revenue per lawyer per year, a firm of Pillsbury's heft would not take 20 lawyers on such revenue. So, take those figures with a grain of salt. Is that what Thelen management is saying? I would not be surprised if the departing 22 lawyers either have much larger revennues in reality, or are on the verge bringing a larger case that they did not want to share with a dying firm.

Further to 93's point, Thelen's China practice is quite young. Thelen paid for the startup costs and the group has been growing revenues regularly. The $7.5 million figure may be accurate, but that number is likely to continue to increase at an increasing rate. That's the type of business that Thelen really needed, rather than the stagnant practice areas that are left.

So when you assess the impact of the loss of the China group, remember that the likely future revenue contribution is the key loss.

My understanding is that revenue figure is old and that there was approximately a 33% increase since then. For a relatively new group, that's a huge increase. This group, with time and further expansion, could be worth $20-30M down the road. And, from what I hear, the partners and associates in the group are some of the nicest and smartest attorneys to work with, so I question the comments to the contrary.

As a Thelen corporate associate, I can assure you that the only interesting corporate work came from the China group.

So they let Thelen spend all the money to build the practice, and when it starts getting traction, they take off for greener pastures. Nice.

Thelen's falling apart. Why would an emerging practice group wait around and pray that things would work out for the firm? Instead, the group did the right thing and moved to a new firm, saving the jobs of each associate in the group. That in and of itself speaks to the integrity of these partners.

98- if the China group was really an emerging practice group then it would have been safe even if Thelen fell apart around it. The fact is, it wasn't that lucrative, and the group jumped ship to a firm willing to take a loss now in the hopes that the group is profitable in the future.

Whatever the reasons for the departure of the partners in the China practice, I am confident that saving the jobs of their associates had nothing to do with it. Why would an emerging practice stay with the firm that took the chance on it and bankrolled it? Loyalty. If this practice is so good, then they were in no hurry to leave (i.e., they would be in demand at any time), and could easily have waited to see what would happen. Instead they were willing to apply the death blow to the firm that created and supported them, Nice.

On top of anything, loyalty cuts in three ways. Of course, the partners should show some loyalty to their firm, but the firm must show loyalty to the partners as well. It didn't help that Thelen put a freeze on hiring, in terms of both laterals and incomings. The DC office has been hurting for help for months and was repeatedly shot down in efforts to increase attorney staffing to the levels it needed. Inadequate staffing leads to partners being unable to fulfill their commitments (i.e., loyalty) to clients. Thelen shot itself in the foot by maintaining such a hard line with the DC partners, and has now lost the office's entire corporate practice.

"Thelen D.C. should close its doors, now that its "crown jewel" has exited the premises."

Idiot. The crown jewel was not the DC China practice. It was the domestic office NOT in SF, LA, NY, DC, Hartford, or Northern NJ. Figure it out dummies.

Thelen's management is a bunch of useless cowards. Way to run it in the grouind Mr. Oneil. good riddens

Thelen's management is a bunch of useless cowards. Way to run it in the ground Mr. Oneil. good riddens

Thelen's management is a bunch of useless cowards. Way to run it in the ground Mr. Oneil. good riddens

It's "O'Neal" and "good riddence". Thelen will be just fine. Wait and see.

It's actually riddance. Thelen will be just fine, though.

O'Neal loved to perpetuate the misconception that Thelen's construction group was the heart of Thelen and that the rest of the practice groups were just after thoughts. It's exactly that attitude of ignoring and neglecting the groups that do (did) bring in substantial business and bill at higher rates that has lead to the recent defections.

will incoming first years "be just fine"

Look for construction partners to start jumping ship by next week. You heard it here first.

I'm also wondering about incoming first years. Probably depends on whether the merger goes through.

"O'Neal loved to perpetuate the misconception that Thelen's construction group was the heart of Thelen..."

TMJB started as a construction firm that grew up with Bechtel. Thelen's best-known and most-acclaimed practice group is the construction group, too. It is by no means a misconception that the group is and has always been at Thelen's core.

112- I agree. It's called ego. Thelen (run by the marketing expert O'Neal) spent many years investing heavily in marketing of the construction department so that they could continue to call themselves the "most-acclaimed practice group". While I grant that the SF construction group does have some good attorneys in it, you know something is wrong when a firm devotes that much $$ and energy to promote one group -- at the expense of other departments and offices. Especially when those other departments were able to bring in paying clients (at higher billable rates) without the aggressive (and expensive) marketing.

What do people make of this?

http://asialegalblog.com/2008/09/29/people-moves-92908/

text:

"Some inside information on a rather interesting release that came across the Cypress radar today:

“Pillsbury today announced that it has acquired Thelen’s China practice, a group of approximately 20 attorneys, including partners Tom Shoesmith, Meg Utterback, Joe Tiano and Lou Bevilacqua, to be based in Pillsbury’s Shanghai, Washington, DC and San Francisco offices.”

While some sources are asking if this indicates that Thelen may be the next firm to fall, we think it is important to note that this is not a practice group defection, but in fact a negotiated sale/acquisition.

I placed a Counsel, Woon-Wah Siu and a mid-level associate in the group in play recently, both of whom started in early August. The group has been a real bright spot for Thelen and should continue to be so for Pillsbury. Interestingly (and possibly tellingly) the two firms’ offices were only a floor apart in the Bund Center in Shanghai.

In all, rather than a sign of weakness for Thelen, we see this as a strong strategic move for both firms, and a great oportunity for the associates and partners involved the move.

- Justin"

What the hell is this "negotiated sale/acquisition" nonsense? I'm a Thelen associate and we were told that at best Pillsbury may take over the Shanghai lease. Is "Justin" claiming that there was a payment made from Pillsbury to Thelen in connection with the practice group move? If that's the case we certainly were not informed of this. Rather, we were told that there is no spinning the fact that the loss of the group is a significant hit to the firm.

The idea that one could (or that Thelen did) sell a practice group is sheer idiocy.

I'm calling BS on 115. Not a Thelen associate. As for 114, I'm intrigued by the story and certainly wouldn't dismiss it instantly. Looking forward to getting the facts.

This is also in line with what 114 is saying.

http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2008/09/29/daily10.html

"In order to expand its international corporate capabilities, Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP has bought Thelen LLP’s China practice...."

So maybe Pillsbury purchased Thelen's China practice?

this is a heller summer associate from 2008 (read: flexing whatever contacts i have at the moment to procure a new job), but i'm curious as to the following:

what are the anticipated consequences for law firms generally of the fact that investment banks, as we knew them, are a thing of the past?

leaving thelen aside, i think it would be wise for Mystall (or whoever is in charge of posts on this site - sorry if i am butchering your name) to do a piece on what the ramifications of the liquidity crisis are for big law firms - particularly the n.y.c. law firms that depended on their institutional relationships with investment banks for their profitability/capitalization.

i've got a colleague who just started his first year as a corporate atty at skadden in new york, and he's already attended a couple meetings detailing just how fucked the situation is...

thoughts?

(i, for one, would think that law firm economics 101 is about to be subject to some major rethinking.)

115 here. Ok, 116, so you don't believe I'm a Thelen associate because I don't believe that a practice group can be bought or sold.

Let's hear your theory on how this transaction was structured. What did Thelen receive? Tell us, because neither Rich nor John cared to tell us what the motivation was for the defection when we had that 4:00 meeting on Monday.

Its happening again today! A construction partner with significant business, and the former head of the firm's dispute practice, has resigned from Thelen D.C office and taken a counsel with him. Two or three associates are expected to follow. This proves that Thelen cannot even hold onto construction partners.

A warning to Thelen associates: GET OUT NOW! Your firm is failing. Thelen will not be around in one month's time. Don't be some kind of 'loyal' idiot who sticks around to suffer the same fate as the Heller associates.

The people who post on this board are idiots. Nobody here knows anything. Just get back to work.

120 -- who left? names please.

Can anyone verify what 120 said?

120 is obviously an outsider and just read law.com or something. Those two attorneys both sent out "goodbye" emails recently, so it'd be well-known to anyone at Thelen.

Thelen has been in decline for years due to amazingly inept management. The first sign of the downfall with the acquisition of the Britton Silberman & Cervantez group seven years ago. Those three were put in equity positions without Michelle Johnson doing any due diligence on whether (a) the attorneys were competant, or (b) their clients paid anything. Britton and Silberman were ejected by the partnership within a year, and Cervantez, the only guy with actual legal abilities, left a bit after that.

Thelen then went to management struggles; the guy who should have been elected, Chuck Bierenbaum, lost after last minute rule changes. He left for Winston & Strawn and many Thelen lawyers ended up going there over time. Had he won the election, the situation would have likely been different.

Having dismally failed with the BSC team, the management tried to swallow a bigger sort of tech fish with Brown Raynsman. But that firm was a complete mismatch in terms of practicing styles, billing rates and for many Brown Raynsman clients, collection practices. A large chunk of Brown Raynsman clients can't handle big firm style monthly payments--that's why they were at a smaller firm. There was no way that situation would work.

There's not much left at Thelen. Thelen's project finance/energy practice took a body blow when Calpine disappeared. It's construction and employment practices do well, but that's a mid-range practice. It has great lawyers in other areas, but no large high-billing super-profitable groups that would be a game changer for any law firm.

The problem with dissolution is that breaking Thelen's leases will be hugely expensive.

One fun fact: the superstitious believe that Thelen was jinxed when it moved from Embarcadero to its current office building, the other major tenant of which was Arthur Anderson.

Thelen has been in decline for years due to amazingly inept management. The first sign of the downfall with the acquisition of the Britton Silberman & Cervantez group seven years ago. Those three were put in equity positions without Michelle Johnson doing any due diligence on whether (a) the attorneys were competant, or (b) their clients paid anything. Britton and Silberman were ejected by the partnership within a year, and Cervantez, the only guy with actual legal abilities, left a bit after that.

Thelen then went to management struggles; the guy who should have been elected, Chuck Bierenbaum, lost after last minute rule changes. He left for Winston & Strawn and many Thelen lawyers ended up going there over time. Had he won the election, the situation would have likely been different.

Having dismally failed with the BSC team, the management tried to swallow a bigger sort of tech fish with Brown Raynsman. But that firm was a complete mismatch in terms of practicing styles, billing rates and for many Brown Raynsman clients, collection practices. A large chunk of Brown Raynsman clients can't handle big firm style monthly payments--that's why they were at a smaller firm. There was no way that situation would work.

There's not much left at Thelen. Thelen's project finance/energy practice took a body blow when Calpine disappeared. It's construction and employment practices do well, but that's a mid-range practice. It has great lawyers in other areas, but no large high-billing super-profitable groups that would be a game changer for any law firm.

The problem with dissolution is that breaking Thelen's leases will be hugely expensive.

One fun fact: the superstitious believe that Thelen was jinxed when it moved from Embarcadero to its current office building, the other major tenant of which was Arthur Anderson.

Tiano and Bevilacqua should open a Staten Island office.

anyone know about the reports that the NY office space is being taken over?

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/10/02/thelen-is-reelin-is-it-losing-its-crown-jewel/

#125/126: this is accurate. Thelen never properly cleaned up the mess left by the BS&C merger, and a good chunk of their billings while they were at Thelen were never resolved: not paid, not placed for collection, not even written off.

Then, when the Brown Raysman thing happened, it was apparent that (once again) no one had bothered to really look to see what they were getting. The finance people tried to do what they could to raise the flag, but they were buried alive.

Now, while eveyone's looking at the partners and wondering who's going to be the next to leave and who'll go with them, no one notices that Thelen's finance department is almost non-functional. It's so bad, Friday was their controller's last day.

Rumor has it Thelen is suing Tiano. Anyone have more details?

Rumor has it Thelen is suing Tiano. Anyone have more details?