Someone just got a whole lot richer. His wife probably treated him well last night.

Oh good, Lat gets to save this blog on weekends with some real news.

Williams & Connolly pays a starting salary of $180K, which has to be one of the highest by a major law firm:

http://abovethelaw.com/2007/12/nationwide_pay_raise_watch_wil_1.php

Does anyone know what their PPP is like?

Don't know, no. 4, but I understand that W&C doesn't pay much in the way of bonuses, so their starting salaries may be a bit misleading. (Someone will surely correct me if I am wrong.)

Nice to see a firm promote its partners from its homegrown. That alone would be a good reason to seriously consider W&C if partnership is a goal.

Agree w/6:58. In general, the more elite the firm, the more it relies upon grooming its own partners (rather than poaching from other firms).

In addition to Williams & Connolly, two other firms that rarely make lateral partners are Wachtell and Cravath.

6:58 - That is right from what I understand. They don't pay much (if anything) in year-end bonuses.

But they do pay clerkship bonuses. If you have two clerkships, like circuit + district, W&C pays a clerkship bonus of $90,000 (compared to the $70,000 of most other top firms for two clerkships):

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2008/01/clerkship_bonus_watch_williams_2.php

Bob Barnett talking on the record to Above the Law? Congrats, Lat.

"He's our first lateral partner in 22 years, which is indicative of how rarely we have lateral partners join us."

Gosh, really?

Allen Keyes v2.0?

How does this lateral hire affect the associates at WILDMAN HARROLD?

Is W & C hedging its bets with respect to a possible Obama victory in November?

How many OTHER black partners does W & C have?

Black? I must have read his name wrong.

Is LAT, Black?

Only Charlie Herschel can answer that.

He seems to have a sense of humor too:

Welcome to the Shanmugam family's homepage. Here's a brief introduction to the members of the Shanmugam family.

Kannon serves as an Assistant to the Solicitor General in the Office of the Solicitor General at the U.S. Department of Justice. In that capacity, he represents the United States before the Supreme Court.

Vicki is an Assistant Professor of Medicine in the Department of Rheumatology at Georgetown University Hospital.

Kannon and Vicki are the proud parents of Thomas, who was born in December. He is currently unemployed.

Is Gay the new Black?

Kannon Shanmugam is of Indian ancestry, not African-American:

"Precociousness is nothing new to Shanmugam, the son of Indian immigrants who settled in Lawrence, Kan. He went to Harvard at age 16 and, following his freshman year, secured a summer internship in the Lawrence office of Judge Deanell Tacha of the 10th Circuit."

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/legal-services-lawyers/8913026-1.html

So Indian is the New Black?

He really does look like Obama....

He got an externship following his freshman year of college? Jeesh, and I thought I was lucky to land one following my 1L year!

Guys in my high school never, ever did anything of this nature. It would have been a really big deal.

He looks 15.

mmmmm Me likes'em young mmmm..real younggggg

One firm that always grooms its own partners is Cadwalader.

Does this mean Lat has finally canned Elie?

I think Heller grooms most of its new partners.

11:29(1) - Uh, no, CWT is always importing partners from the outside. E.g., the bankruptcy group it grabbed from Weil; Rick Rule (big antitrust partner).

But he's not a GULC grad....what is W&C thinking?

Is W&C as miserable a place to work as I've heard? I'm sure it's fine for a partner like this guy, but word 'round the street is that it's a nightmare for associates.

while entertaining and informative, this post lacks any pertinent information regarding Kannon's impact on the IP litigation group at WILDMAN HARROLD.

This gentleman lives an enviable life. Maybe I'm taller than he is.

I HAD SEX TONIGHT. IT WAS HOT.

33, guys in my high school used to have sex with their right hand too, it was no a big deal. It was, however, hot.

So Lat is Indian then?

This is great news!

Nice to see African Americans doing so well among the elite Washington/Virginia/Southern Maryland top firms.

He looks like Obama's slightly pudgy, shorter little brother.

This guy definitely gets ID'd when ordering drinks.

But that's one hell of a record, particularly at only 35 years of age... any fools who think this is some affirmative action or diversity play, I'd beg to differ.

Yours truly,
Miserable 33 year old 2nd year associate

First, W&C's pays ZERO bonuses, so their $180K starting salary ultimately puts them LOWER than their DC pears who pay bonuses of at least $20K (which of course, includes all of the NYC branch offices and various other DC firms).

Second, their PPP is notoriously low -- I believe under $1 million, and certainly nowhere near the other top firms in DC (which, in turn, are nowhere near the top firms in NYC). So yeah, the dude took a huge pay jump from the DOJ, but he obviously wasn't in it for exclusively for the money, otherwise he would have gone to Kirkland, Latham, in DC, or perhaps even some NYC branch office.

30-

Yes, W&C is pretty miserable for associates. From what I've heard, not so much because of terrible people, but just because of terrible hours. Think 2500+ range.

Any advice on whether to pick W&C? I got an offer from them, and I'm not sure if I should accept. People here seem to think the place is miserable for associates, is that true?

41-

See above. It is pretty miserable for associates. It's obviously amongst the most elite litigation shops. The problem is there are not really any other upsides to working there. You work FAR more -- and get paid less -- than most other top shops in DC. Are the brutal hours and sub-par pay (especially pay per hour) outweighed by the elitism and selectivity? Only you can decide, friend.

No. 42 wrote:

"Are the brutal hours and sub-par pay (especially pay per hour) outweighed by the elitism and selectivity?"

Now, that is funny stuff. Although the sad truth is, I can't tell whether 42 was joking or not - because biglaw lawyers are just the kind of DBs who genuinely think "elitism and selectivity" are important (other than just on their resumes).

I'll just say this: I've been working at a "prestigious" biglaw firm for years, and I've had it. I'm moving on to something less prestigious, and a whole lot more enjoyable. I'd much rather work at a TTT place, shine as a partner, and make $500K, then slave away for a bunch of socially and emotionally inept litigationbots at a so-called "first tier" firm so I can be miserable for the rest of my sorry existence. But hey, that's just me.

So Vault is totally wrong? It has W&C as #19 for "best hours" and #1 for "overall satisfaction." It's also #1 for associate-partner relations. Vault has its shortcomings, but I trust it more than I trust anonymous posters on ATL.

#43 -- great idea. The only problem is, those mediocre firms that you love so much will probably be extinct in a few years. There will be massive consolidation and shakeouts in the legal industry in the next 5-10 years, and the only survivors will be "first tier" firms that, like, make you work for your $200k salary right out of law school.

Obviously, everyone would love to work 1700 hrs/year and make $500k. Duh. Too bad those firms won't exist, if they ever did. It's a myth that tier 3 firms have such wonderful hours and quality of life -- if they did, everyone would work there and they wouldn't be tier 3.

Also, "prestige" is a means to an end. Such firms like W&C give you the best training and the most substantive cases. If you're not interested in that, you should probably reconsider your career choice.

Litigated against them for a couple of years. Smart, tough attorneys who work VERY hard and VERY long hours. Not your typical leveraged Big Law firm. The associates I litigated against got REAL WORK - namely drafting motions, negotiating with opposing counsel, prepping witnesses (fact and expert) and taking depositions (even at the junior level). Can't beat that if you want to be a trial lawyer. However, I also got the sense that you should not be surprised to bill 2400-2600 hours a year. Too many hours for me.

One other thing...their clients tend to be on the guilty side of things...

I am also considering W&C and would appreciate any more thoughts on what to expect as a junior associate (hours, work, satisfaction, etc.).

45, I seriously doubt that happens. A lot people may not know this, but there is whole market for legal services that is not driven by monster deals and litigation originated by financial institutions and Fortune 500 companies. And you know something, price matters in that market. Usually more than the name of the firm does. You don't go to a V10 firm, when you can get the same exact result and service for half the price down the street at the 100 lawyer firm. And for every "bet the company" deal/litigation, there are 5 matters that don't require that kind of representation.

There are some really talented lawyers in those "mediocre" firms. That is because the stars don't always chase the money to the top. These firms are out there.

"#43 -- great idea. The only problem is, those mediocre firms that you love so much will probably be extinct in a few years. There will be massive consolidation and shakeouts in the legal industry in the next 5-10 years, and the only survivors will be "first tier" firms that, like, make you work for your $200k salary right out of law school."

The only problem with your argument is that it presupposes that clients will be able to afford "first tier" firms (whatever that means). There will always be smaller public (or private) companies that simply will refuse to pay 50 or 100% higher rates for basically identical work. I've worked at more than one Biglaw shop, and both places are always receiving pushback re rates from large, Fortune 500 companies. If those clients don't want to pay our rates, you think up and coming businesses will? Of course not.

Litigated against them for a couple of years. Smart, tough attorneys who work VERY hard and VERY long hours. Not your typical leveraged Big Law firm. The associates I litigated against got REAL WORK - namely drafting motions, negotiating with opposing counsel, prepping witnesses (fact and expert) and taking depositions (even at the junior level). Can't beat that if you want to be a trial lawyer. However, I also got the sense that you should not be surprised to bill 2400-2600 hours a year. Too many hours for me.

One other thing...their clients tend to be on the guilty side of things...

I summered at W&C, am currently clerking, and seriously considering going back.

It is definitely true that your overall compensation, both as an associate and as a partner, is less there than it would be at many other places. And you'll work just as hard if not harder than you would at any place else in DC.

But I will say that I think that's balanced out by the fact that, because they (well, now you have to say almost) never hire lateral partners, (a) your chances of making partner are much higher than a place like Wilmer or Covington; and (b) because they're trying to identify and groom future partners instead of just squeezing every last bit of sweat and blood out of research monkeys, you will actually get to do substantive work much earlier in your career than you would at any other big firm in town. I do also think that it's one of the most prestigious shops in town, so if you can tough it out for 3 years there it's a great line to have on a resume. The cookies in the attorney dining room rule, too.

So I think that's the choice--is it worth it to work more hours for slightly less money to have a better shot at partnership and get better, more substantive work?

51, thanks for chiming in. To follow up, what were your perceptions of how many hours the average associate billed? What was the average working day for a W&C associate in terms of working hours (not necessarily billables)?

I am #43, and am responding to the responses to my original post.

Needless to say, I disagree with #45, who may have misunderstood my post (I also may not have been as clear as I could have). There are plenty of "midsize" firms out there that are thriving and will continue to thrive. The old myth about the mid-size "danger zone" proved bogus after the last meltdown circa 2001. These midsize firms stay afloat and indeed prosper typically by offering a mix of the usual "biglaw" services to a cadre of loyal clients who are psyched about the relatively cheaper fees, along with some more niche-oriented practice areas that serve a local/regional client base.

As for QOL, I never said I was looking to go someplace where I could leisurely bill 1700 hours and expect a windfall in return. What I meant was that there are plenty of smallish firms that are flourishing - by smallish firms' standards - and for whom you can do interesting work at a liveable pace - say, 1900 hours - and make a liveable wage. Of course, lawyers at these firms earn substantially less than their biglaw counterparts, but partnership at these firms can mean a well-to-do, if not wealthy living and a more workable and enjoyable lifestyle than their biglaw counterparts.

I am #43, and am responding to the responses to my original post.

Needless to say, I disagree with #45, who may have misunderstood my post (I also may not have been as clear as I could have). There are plenty of "midsize" firms out there that are thriving and will continue to thrive. The old myth about the mid-size "danger zone" proved bogus after the last meltdown circa 2001. These midsize firms stay afloat and indeed prosper typically by offering a mix of the usual "biglaw" services to a cadre of loyal clients who are psyched about the relatively cheaper fees, along with some more niche-oriented practice areas that serve a local/regional client base.

As for QOL, I never said I was looking to go someplace where I could leisurely bill 1700 hours and expect a windfall in return. What I meant was that there are plenty of smallish firms that are flourishing - by smallish firms' standards - and for whom you can do interesting work at a liveable pace - say, 1900 hours - and make a liveable wage. Of course, lawyers at these firms earn substantially less than their biglaw counterparts, but partnership at these firms can mean a well-to-do, if not wealthy living and a more workable and enjoyable lifestyle than their biglaw counterparts.

I am #43, and am responding to the responses to my original post.

Needless to say, I disagree with #45, who may have misunderstood my post (I also may not have been as clear as I could have). There are plenty of "midsize" firms out there that are thriving and will continue to thrive. The old myth about the mid-size "danger zone" proved bogus after the last meltdown circa 2001. These midsize firms stay afloat and indeed prosper typically by offering a mix of the usual "biglaw" services to a cadre of loyal clients who are psyched about the relatively cheaper fees, along with some more niche-oriented practice areas that serve a local/regional client base.

As for QOL, I never said I was looking to go someplace where I could leisurely bill 1700 hours and expect a windfall in return. What I meant was that there are plenty of smallish firms that are flourishing - by smallish firms' standards - and for whom you can do interesting work at a liveable pace - say, 1900 hours - and make a liveable wage. Of course, lawyers at these firms earn substantially less than their biglaw counterparts, but partnership at these firms can mean a well-to-do, if not wealthy living and a more workable and enjoyable lifestyle than their biglaw counterparts.

53-55 -- STFU

This guy is South Asian, not black, as someone above stated. Fking idiots.

51 here, responding to 52:

Perhaps not surprisingly, they didn't really talk too much to the summers about average hours worked and average hours billed. Since there's no end of year bonuses, there's technically no minimum or target billables, and they try to play this up as a "we're more concerned with quality than quantity" thing. But if you believe that, I've got a Nigerian associate who is willing to give you 10% of his vast (over $20 million) fortune if you could just lend him $10,000 to bribe some government officials so he can transfer the money out of his bank account.

I think the reality is that they work a lot. A whole lot. One time I was by the printer when someone was printing out there billable hours logs, and decided to sneak a peek. I saw "6 hours" for one day and thought to myself, "hey, that's not so bad." Then I saw that it was for a Sunday, and most of the weekday logs were for 8-12 hours per day. I think especially if you're gunning for partner, you should plan on billing 2250-2500 hours per year. Anything less than 2000-2100 would likely result in a "come to Jesus" talk with management. These are just guesses on my part, but I would imagine they're about right.

As far as average work day, I really don't know, I suppose a lot depends on how productive you are. There were definitely lights on at 7 and 8 when I left many nights. But I did have several people tell me that they worked from 8-6 or 7 each day during the week, and 9-3 on Saturdays. They said they still got home in time for dinner with family and had most of the weekend free. I don't think these were the type of people that would shill for the firm, so I think that some people at the firm manage to get their stuff done and still have a life.

Another issue that I would flag for anyone interested in W&C is that I think the firm may be changing a little. It is known as being a kind of massive litigation boutique, where you get the benefits of working for a big firm with some of the benefits (lean staffing, interesting cases) of working at a small firm. However, I think that recently, as W&C has grown, it has taken some very large cases that it would not and could not have handled when it was a smaller firm, like the Vioxx defense litigation. This was a massive case that a lot of associates were working pretty much full-time on. W&C has an army of staff attorneys and paralegals and was coordinating the efforts of other law firms, so it's not like associates were stuck doing document review, but they were doing pretty repetitive stuff. And if W&C is going to keep taking cases like that and devoting armies of associates to it full-time for long periods of time, there's really no advantage to being at W&C. You could do the same amount and type of work for money elsewhere. If anyone's interviewing with W&C (although I'd save this for the callback...), I'd love to hear what they have to say in response to this concern, and whether they admit or deny that their business model and firm model may be changing a bit.

Anyway, great firm, great place to work, and the summer program actually gives you actual work, the opportunity to travel, and none of the long lunches and social events that dominate your calendar at other places. Good luck to anyone interested who is interviewing there.

58--Thanks for your insight.

30

I also summered at W&C and have nothing but good things to say about the place. I bet the vast majority of the negative comments come from people who have never set foot inside the firm. That said, they are selective in their hiring, and it does take a particular type of person to enjoy the place. But that type usually thinks it's one of the best places to work, period.

I am impressed that 43 clarified his response without being defensive or nasty.

Those who are bashing W&C's salary are failing to take risk into consideration. That $180k is guaranteed. Your $160k + (at least) $20k bonus is not...especially not this year.

I have very little doubt that Mr. Shanmugan is uniquely bright and capable, but man, you'd have to be in the streetside crowd of "The Emperor's New Clothes" to look at this guy and say his career move had nothing to do the satisfaction elite whites get by bringing along an appropriate person of color.

I have very little doubt that Mr. Shanmugan is uniquely bright and capable, but man, you'd have to be in the streetside crowd of "The Emperor's New Clothes" to look at this guy and say his career move had nothing to do the satisfaction elite whites get by bringing along an appropriate person of color.